I am reminded of the BoED (Book of Exalted Deeds) from the old 3.0/3.5 D&D days. In it, you basically had characters who were super good. They not only had to aspire to goodness but they had to refrain from many of the easy solutions more traditional games revolved around (i.e. hack and slash, murder hoboing, etc.).

This book often had to grant bonuses and add mechanics based on living an exalted lifestyle, such as being nonviolent or being ascetic (refraining from worldly possessions). Such mechanics might be doable in a game like CoE, but it would be difficult for a player to go this route, particularly if their "special" nature attracted unwanted attention.

I would give these two examples to counter the darker lich and vampire already slated for inclusion in CoE: the ascetic and the saint.

The Ascetic

The ascetic is in direct opposition of the lich, for while the lich delves into dark tomes and secrets for power and to unlock immortality, the ascetic explores the mysteries of the world in search of the light of knowledge to dispel the shadow of ignorance. While the lich seeks immortality and hoards his soul in a phylactery, coveting and protecting it against all, an ascetic eschews all but the most basic of material goods, often living on the kindness of the community or the bounty of the land.

While a lich continues to age beyond the physical limits of their earthly body, an ascetic retains the vim and vigor of youth far beyond their years. While an ascetic understands they will eventually die, they do not fear death like their lich counterparts. Rather, they embrace the continuous cycle of reincarnation, knowing they will become spiritually stronger due to their self-discipline and abstention from earthly indulgences.

While many can follow the path of the ascetic, even for personal gain and selfish reasons, the path only reveals its true potential to those who foster good in the world in addition to their selfless asceticism. When a person follows the path of goodness and kindness, they may become privy to the sacred vows necessary to pursue the path of the ascetic, forswearing material goods and taking a vow of poverty.

Benefits of the Ascetic

• Your fatigue recovers naturally as if you were in a home, regardless of your current location.
• You cannot starve to death or die from dehydration.
• You are resistant to the effects of extreme environmental cold and heat.
• Your physical and mental attributes do not decrease as you age, although your mental and social attributes still increase.
• You do not appear to physically age beyond the age category you obtained enlightenment at (for reincarnated ascetics, this may be quite young depending on if you pursue the ascetic lifestyle again after being reincarnated).

The Saint

The saint is counterpoised to the vampire. While the vampire feeds on the spiritual essence of others in order to prolong its unnatural life, the saint freely spends their own spiritual essence to do good in the world. Through the use of blessings, a saint can heal the sick, protect the innocent, restore those who recently suffered grievous wounds, and quell the profane. However, such a path quickly drains a person of their own spirit. With the knowledge their life is short and they will more than likely fall at the hands of some vile force, a saint performs their works with fervor and a dedication bordering on the zealous.

While a vampire seeks out victims to drain of their spiritual essence, a saint seeks out people to help. While a force of good in the world, a saint is free to cast their blessings on the deserving and those whose hearts are as dark as can be. A saint can only grant one blessing a day and doing so counts as having experienced spirit loss from grievous wounds. Due to the high profile of such characters, this means their lives are often considerably short unless they work to hide themselves and their unnatural abilities.

While sainthood is a seemingly simple path towards easy power, becoming a saint is no easy task and only those of a truly pure heart and dedicated to the forces of good can achieve such heights. A saint's soul must often spend several lifetimes free of evil and sin before it is considered pure enough to wield the divine powers of the saint, for only the blessings spoken by the true of heart and the purest of soul will be heard and answered.

Blessings of the Saint

Only one blessing can be made per day, and each such blessing counts as grievous wounds when determining the spirit loss a saint takes when using his blessings.

• Healing: The saint heals another character of all poisons, diseases, and lingering injuries affecting them.
• Protection: The saint protects another character, reducing the chance of being affected by a poison, contracting a disease, or being critically injured by attacks for a short period.
• Life: The saint restores the spirit loss suffered by another character due to grievous wounds, so long as that loss has occurred in the last 24 hours.
• Smite Evil: The saint gains a bonus on damage and critical hits against a single target that is "evil" (evil will be subject to game mechanics such as being a player killer, being undead, or some other mechanically viable evil that can be discerned through gameplay). If this ability is used against a non-evil character or creature, the spirit loss remains and the ability is wasted.

Anyway, those are just a couple ideas.

Ears are burning, If what honeybrew described was implemented then I would definitely have my work cut out for me! I hope they don't do angels though, flying devalues world exploration.

@Hojxs: I like the idea of a saint receiving a reincarnated blessing. Perhaps their next life has the maximum possible spirit possible instead of randomly determining it.

@Saint: I am with you 100% on the no flying angels thing. I think technology for flight or flying mounts would be fine, but wings on PCs are sort of overkill. At least with technology you (presumably) need fuel and with flying mounts, they are still mounts that need to be cared for and protected.

I guess, the usual counterpart to Liches is Mages. Liches are evil mages, who get magic by sacrificing themselves and turning into Liches which grants them immortality and magic. The 'usual mage' (mages wont be usual, but still maybe there will be more mages than liches) will not be immortal and doesn't need to be evil. Maybe its even required to be good. Or good mages get other skills than evil mages. Like protection, blessings, ability to make it rain or get windmagic to make ships sail etc, while evil mages learn to control fire and physical powers or necromancy.

Good mages might even learn skills that change the opponents souls affinity to the good side and such breaking liches per se. You cant kill a Lich by killing him the physical way unless you find its soul...But if you make the Lich good, he will suffer great pain for being evil and destroy himself :P (Although this might be a bad idea (but its the way a unicorn would fight a troll, telling him the way of love and goodness))

@Gromschlog So a White Mage then? Final Fantasy has always used the "good hurts evil" mechanic in magic to the point where Cure deals damage to undead and so forth. I can get behind the idea but I don't think it will be implemented in a X counters Y scenario given how rare magic is supposed to be.

I just hope that morality, once committed to, can have a significant impact on your soul, and is potentially as gameplay relevant as the talent system itself. Perhaps becoming a Lich is a secret not revealed through talents, but shown to you purely as a result of your dark actions and intent?

My thoughts on Lich/Vampire/Ascetic/Saint

Lich: Liches will probably be people who unlock the magic talent, are SUUUUPER evil, like... king-killing, wanted bad-asses who kill tens of people (permadeath & all). These will be the ones societies have all universally agreed to kick out of town, and left to fin for themselves in the wilderness. Though too late, the lich will likely have all they need by the time this happens, and slowly find themselves delving into more and more evil magics to preserve their "life".

Vampires: Likely this one will come from adventuring into vampire territory and being bitten while asleep. This will probably be one of those "I didn't want it" things, where the vampire must realize their new position in society as an outsider, while hiding their new found undeath.

Ascetic: Similar to liches, I suspect this will come from a talent of magic (or possibly a different one, like healing). In an effort to save people, the Ascetic will probably become so well renowned for their willingness to travel just to help people, that the gods favor them as worthy of longevity beyond mortal restrictions.

Saint: Similar to vampire, I think people will fall into being a saint based on their actions alone. A saint will probably be someone who pushes the boundaries of a religion, going so far as to follow vows that represent that religion. Maybe fasting once a week, donating to the poor, spending time with the sick, and comforting those who lose a loved one. These will people who are called a saint by other people before any game mechanic kicks in to make it official.

Ok now.... Lichs and Vamp's don't die easy. Lichs don't die at all if you do not destroy their sourced out souls. And Vamps...well you know the drill. I am courious how this will refelct in the game mechanic.

@Valhallan first off, props on the name, enjoy viking heaven. Secondly, To me it feels like how the game might balance alignment might contradict the possibility of a good lich. If it balances good verse evil and only allows exclusively evil players to attain lichdom it may just have to be that black and white. I'd love the dynamics behind freedom of choice though!

Edit: this was my 200th post O_o

I've said it before and i'll say it again: good and evil are too subjective and nebulous of concepts for simple game mechanics to calculate accurately, because there is no way for a game engine to know the intent behind a players action.

You could have a lich do a bunch of "evil" things like murder and CDG players to power himself and sustain his unnatural life, but if he only murders players who are themselves marauders and griefers, is he really evil?

Posted By Vucar at 4:56 PM - Sun Jan 01 2017

I've said it before and i'll say it again: good and evil are too subjective and nebulous of concepts for simple game mechanics to calculate accurately, because there is no way for a game engine to know the intent behind a players action.

You could have a lich do a bunch of "evil" things like murder and CDG players to power himself and sustain his unnatural life, but if he only murders players who are themselves marauders and griefers, is he really evil?

That's fair but I still feel like it would be railroaded into a "good verse evil" scenario due to the fact we know the world is likely terrified of magic. Champions would present themselves to deal with the Lich because it is something they wouldn't understand, motive or no motive. and the ignorance of the masses places them on a pedestal afterwards. Does that make the Champions evil for killing a lich for existing? It all boils down to the individual stories of the people in the scenario. It's never truly black and white but the illusion is there to drive conflict in the story.

Posted By Korinra at 04:23 AM - Thu Dec 29 2016

My thoughts on Lich/Vampire/Ascetic/Saint

Lich: Liches will probably be people who unlock the magic talent, are SUUUUPER evil, like... king-killing, wanted bad-asses who kill tens of people (permadeath & all). These will be the ones societies have all universally agreed to kick out of town, and left to fin for themselves in the wilderness. Though too late, the lich will likely have all they need by the time this happens, and slowly find themselves delving into more and more evil magics to preserve their "life".

Vampires: Likely this one will come from adventuring into vampire territory and being bitten while asleep. This will probably be one of those "I didn't want it" things, where the vampire must realize their new position in society as an outsider, while hiding their new found undeath.

Ascetic: Similar to liches, I suspect this will come from a talent of magic (or possibly a different one, like healing). In an effort to save people, the Ascetic will probably become so well renowned for their willingness to travel just to help people, that the gods favor them as worthy of longevity beyond mortal restrictions.

Saint: Similar to vampire, I think people will fall into being a saint based on their actions alone. A saint will probably be someone who pushes the boundaries of a religion, going so far as to follow vows that represent that religion. Maybe fasting once a week, donating to the poor, spending time with the sick, and comforting those who lose a loved one. These will people who are called a saint by other people before any game mechanic kicks in to make it official.

I like the idea about vampirism, not everyone who contracts it may have wanted it in the first place! :) Kind of like Sanguine Vampirus in Skyrim