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Barrister's Series: Let's Talk about the Law 01

Barrister’s Series: Let’s Talk about the Law

Table of Contents

Week 1: What do we want to see?
Week 2: Types of Government
Week 3: Constitutions and Charters

Week 1

Introduction

Greetings

Well met, fellow Elyrians!

I am the Chief Justicar to King Evelake Rhyne of the Kingdom of Vornair, responsible for establishing the courts and laws, and providing legal advice to the Crown. I was happy to be selected for this position because it allows me to have some creative output along the lines of my passion: the law. This is especially so since one of the Elyria’s many, great facets which attracted me was its player-driven legal system.

Purpose

This post is the first of several in the “Barrister’s Series,” and is meant for people who also like talking about the law. So whether you are your state’s sovereign, a peasant trying to make by, or somewhere in between, feel free to chime in. I will pose a new question every Friday evening, further delving into these complicated subjects.

Disclaimers

I know we do not know very much of what will be available at this moment, but, that should not affect our ability to think things through and plan them out. A sound method of planning is to prepare for a simulation as close to reality as possible. That way, when facts are revealed, we can trim back the excess instead of playing catch up.

True to legal arguments, if you have something to say, articulate it. Provide references as needed. Avoid logical fallacies. And, most importantly, be civil.

Now, let's talk about the law.

This Week’s Question

What do we want to see in a legal system?

Yes, I know. This is a broad question. But it’s the foundational subject. Soulbound Studios (“SS”) is providing us with what is effectively a virgin world with no legal system to speak of in any way, shape or form. All laws will need to be drafted by players, by people. And those laws will have to function in a mechanical system established by SS.

So what do we want to see happen? Do things change if the type of government (Week 2) changes, if a monarchy becomes a democratic republic? What happens when a charter or constitution (Week 3) is written? How could that be implemented, if at all?

Personally, I’d like to see some manner of supremacy in the courthouses. Meaning, if a law is passed in a courthouse at the Kingdom level, it automatically clicks through and applies to all the other courthouses (perhaps the law is greyed out, and listed as being a kingdom, duchy, or county law).

I am also very curious as to how they will implement evidence. I have heard rumors that there will be a complicated trial system where players will have skills that can manipulate certain factors to either win or lose a case.

And also, without getting too much into the weeds here, I’d really like to see a complicated motions system in order to adjudicate claims. We all know contracts will be in the game. However, what happens when someone fails a contract because the other party sabotaged them? It does not look like the existing system will factor that in, but it would be nice for a player to be able to lodge a complaint against a party, and then have that party be able to defend themselves accordingly. This is especially important because a solid system of legal navigation will allow for greater tranquility, and as a result, more growth.

So, what are your thoughts?


1/15/2017 2:43:54 PM #16

Posted By Drakvon at 1:56 PM - Sun Jan 15 2017

eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth. Let the punishment fit the crime. Murder is murder, theft is theft. if you taketh away, then something will be taken away from you. I would elaborate more but i am short on time, but i think that is the jist of it.along with a judicial system and presenting evidence of said crimes and tried by a jury of their peers.

Your statement made me think of this

Posted By Gilbert and Sullivan at 5:00 PM - Sat March 14, 1885

A more humane Mikado never

Did in Japan exist;

To nobody second,

I’m certainly reckoned

A true philanthropist.

It is my very humane endeavour

To make, to some extent,

Each evil liver

A running river

Of harmless merriment.

My object all sublime

I shall achieve in time—

To let the punishment fit the crime,

The punishment fit the crime;

And make each prisoner pent

Unwillingly represent

A source of innocent merriment,

Of innocent merriment!

All prosy dull society sinners,

Who chatter and bleat and bore,

Are sent to hear sermons

From mystical Germans

Who preach from ten to four.

The amateur tenor, whose vocal villainies

All desire to shirk,

Shall, during off-hours,

Exhibit his powers

To Madame Tussaud’s waxwork.

The lady who dyes a chemical yellow

Or stains her grey hair puce,

Or pinches her figure,

Is painted with vigour,

With permanent walnut juice.

The idiot who, in railway carriages,

Scribbles on window-panes,

We only suffer

To ride on a buffer

In Parliamentary trains.


Coming Soon(tm)

1/16/2017 1:39:58 PM #17

Posted By chipla at 07:13 AM - Sun Jan 15 2017

Posted By Achlys at 9:55 PM - Sat Jan 14, 2017

Granted, there will need to be mechanics in place so that “larceny” is understood by the server. My concern is how those mechanics come into play. For example, the U.S. common law definition has six parts: (1) taking and (2) carrying away of the (3) tangible property (4) of another, with the (5) intent to deprive him or her of its possession (6) permanently.

Theft (in England and Wales) is defined as "the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with intention to permanently deprive the other of it" From there you get the more advanced forms of theft - robbery (theft with violence), burglary (theft with trespass), TWOC (car theft), etc etc.

The key in all of these and in most cases in English and Welsh law is the mens rea - the intention to commit the offense. The problem with comparing CoE law with real laws is whether or not the computer can judge intent. I'd say that realistically the game AI isn't going to be advanced enough to be able to judge intent - which is why I'd have the law focus on acts rather than intent (strictly for enforcement purposes). This would allow AI guards and magistrates to be able to enforce the law as well as players. Would mean that NPCs tend towards being 'hanging judges' but since players are intended to take part in trials and the like you can always make it part of your defense if you're lucky enough to get a player magistrate.

If the AI cannot judge if a person intended to commit the crime, how about letting us, the player make this decision. Didn't SBS said players will take part in the legal system? I see this a great spot for players / human input?

Would people see this as a weakness of the system ? I am fine with it. After all, our judges in real life are human too. Players in game may not be as professional, but I do not see that as an excuse to diminish the importance of "intention" in a law suit.


Never argue with an idiot, cuz he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Vice mayor of Lux Verloren

1/17/2017 4:13:46 AM #18

Thanks for keeping the thread going, all. I’m liking what I’m seeing so far!

Replies

Chipla

Although I did not explicitly state it, when I mentioned that the server could track the first four prongs of larceny, it meant that it could not track the last two, which would establish mens rea. How do you suppose NPC magistrates will acquire the information? I’m still curious as to how NPC guards will acquire knowledge of a crime. For example, if an NPC sees something and writes it down, as if it were to be transferred to a magistrate in the form of a report, and that paper was stolen/destroyed... could that player be charged with a crime? I look forward to seeing what eventually is confirmed by the studio.

Orisoll

Unless someone corrects me, I understand that subterfuge is going to be a big thing so, if someone is able to get that armor, then perhaps they could trick someone. I’m not sure. When you back at certain levels you also get identifying cloaks... though, I’m not sure that’s something you’d want to broadcast at all times.

Oracle

I’m glad you have a strong sense of justice. Part of building a stable community is having a stable legal system—not too complicated, not too simple either though, and most importantly, just. And in regards to keeping an eye out for bugs during the alphas and betas, you’re absolutely right.

Alien891

Good point. Although a (hopefully) just and intelligent drafter of laws will do so in a manner that makes them hard to exploit, certainly, there will be some that will do that for their own benefit. We are fortunate to live in a modern world, with modern ideals. But some backers here who have invested a great deal of money may instead view this as part of what they get for investing so much. How long though the people tolerate such abuse is a totally different story though.

Drakvon

I think that’s what we’re working on.

Roarer

That’s what I’m hoping for... the ability to have players make those final decisions. I think what we’re all talking about here is that very concept, of how to discern the mindset of a player.

Additionally

I am rather hoping a few more things: 1) some ability to maintain a record of someone’s acts, so I’ll know if you’ve committed 30 cases of horse theft by the time you show up in court again; 2) a system to issue warrants for an arrest; and 3) in line with the second, the ability to distinguish permissions so that players and NPCs can recognize authority figures. For example, a guard would be allowed to do certain things that a citizen could not, or that a noble could.


1/25/2017 3:51:31 AM #19

Posted By Achlys at 05:13 AM - Tue Jan 17 2017

the ability to distinguish permissions so that players and NPCs can recognize authority figures. For example, a guard would be allowed to do certain things that a citizen could not, or that a noble could.

In regards to this I'm hoping for a full fledged mechanic that allows lawmakers to write out exceptions to individuals in general, and not just based on title/rank. Essentially a licensing system.

The most obvious example how this could be practical and beneficial is in regards to hunting. To ensure sustainable hunting of certain animals a lawmaker could make it illegal to hunt that animal by default, and then annually write out licenses for a limited number of kills, aka quotas, to the professional hunters according to what would be considered sustainable.

1/25/2017 8:18:30 PM #20

Obviously our knowledge of just how flexible law-making will be is dependent partially on our knowledge of the contract system. Furthermore, it's one thing to conceive of a fairly robust contract system enabling players to finagle all the minutia; however, that may come at the cost of a system accessible to players and not overly complicated.

With that disclaimer out of the way, I would not like to see an overly simple system. ArcheAge is a nice example. The game's court system is simplistic: a player appears in court, an NPC adjudicates, and a jury of players deliberate and vote on the verdict. The issues are: (1) a limited number of sentences (e.g. guilty or not guilty), (2) no weight of evidence (there is no way to produce evidence), (3) the lack of seriousness among jurors.

Addressing these in reverse order, many of the jurors do not take the court system seriously. I would venture to guess it's because there's little at stake for the players involved. Also, most criminals are trying to up their infamy enough to become a pirate; so, there's even added incentive to draw a guilty verdict.

Jurors probably do not take it that seriously because the system is fundamentally based on the word of mouth of the players, and, given that any accusation can be made without empirical support, why hold the court to a standard of proof? Indeed, there can't possibly be such a standard.

Finally, there are really only two sentences: guilty or not guilty. The severity of the punishment is directly proportional to the type of crime multiplied by the number of times committed by the criminal. This actually isn't an illegitimate system.

The United States penal code has fluctuated between two points: strict sentencing and open sentencing (my non-technical terms). The former is much like the ArcheAge system. Judges consult what is essentially a chart, find the appropriate crime, and track the recommended or prescribed punishment based on the severity of the crime. The latter keeps the chart but allows judges to make changes to the severity of the sentence based on extenuating circumstances. For instance, there are cases involving thieves who, admitting to the theft, obviously committed the act due to a horrendous family situation or the driving force of poverty and starvation (think Jean Valjean).

So, CoE's legal system will likely fall somewhere along this spectrum. Naturally, the former model is the easiest to implement, but it is certainly less intriguing. The latter is interesting, but it is more difficult to implement.

Given CoE drifts towards the latter, and I think it is highly likely, I would like to see a lot of things mentioned in the above posts. Assuming that contracts will form the basis of the legal system, then a contract, or some version of one, will likely be basal to someone's being accused of a crime. Since formal accusation and trial is therefore legitimized by a document, that document can be voided by the judge in possession of that document at any time. So, fulfilling a Trial by Combat or some other interesting condition should be entirely feasible even if not included as a mechanic in the game. Likewise, this implies that the trial system can be tampered with if the wrong hands (with a skillful-enough use of the pen) gain access to the right documents.

Assuming that this level of complexity is instituted, I think we'll avoid issues (1), (2), and (3) taken above. The legal system might still not be taken seriously, but it wouldn't be taken seriously, presumably, in the right. Players might attempt to exploit it, find loopholes, or disrupt the legal process, but given the proper tools are implemented, those actions can be countered; thus, it presents an interesting puzzle and challenge for players.

My greatest hope (and greatest fear) is that, though the legal system (I'm focusing moreso on the court system here) might be a complex aspect of the game, it is an essential and worthwhile one. Essential insofar as nearly all players will have to interact with it at some point. Worthwhile insofar as those players who choose to play as lawyers/attorneys/barristers, legal scribes, and judges are able to sustain their characters given that style of play and are appropriately rewarded for it.


4/17/2017 11:59:16 PM #21

Laws

Local, Regional, and National leaders can draft laws as part of their region. Once signed in as law, anyone who steps foot within their jurisdiction is bound by the implicit contract. This gives governments a huge amount of flexibility with respect to customizing what is and is not allowed within their domain, and what the consequences are. To make understanding the legal system easier there are different types of contracts for different types of laws. There are contracts for the tax code, criminal code, citizenship, land ownership, inheritance, and even government type. As with other types of contracts it’s impractical in most situations to advance your Contract Writing skill to a point where you can draft laws. Instead you’ll want to retain the services of a skilled Contract Writer to draft the laws on your behalf. Then you can use the regional management UI to institute the laws.


Friend Code: FAE9AA

4/18/2017 12:06:55 AM #22

I would like more insight into researching for new laws or more intricate laws. Since Laws will be establish on a Kingdom > Duchy > County level if I remember correctly I think there would need to be a vast amount of "common" laws for us to choose from to start but we should also be able to get into more biome specific lawmaking too to prevent certain events from happening that can only occur in those biomes.

4/18/2017 12:57:30 AM #23

I wouldn't take your advice unless you passed the bar and are licensed to practice law in CoE


You may have erased my signature, but you can't corner the dorner

4/18/2017 1:45:34 AM #24

Well, I can say that I welcome a organized legal system. Though, I would like to see a jury system in place, as opposed to just having a singular person in charge (ie a judge) because I would be afraid that that judge could be corrupted or swayed by his or her bias. Where as a jury has to have a majority vote or a consensus to read a verdict.

I imagine it, mechanically speaking, playing like the game Guilds 2. Where the most influential individuals in that town or whatever casting a vote for a verdict. Of course when I say influential, I actually mean richest.

As I am playing as a bandit of sorts, it'll certainly be interesting to be on the receiving end of a guilty or not guilty verdict. I almost want SBS to incoporate a sweating emoticon, just for that occasion.

I can see the appeal for a judge to give a ruling over a particular case, since it'd be quicker verdict as opposed to having 4-6 people agreeing on something. Still, I'm hoping for a jury system.


https://discord.gg/esT7wMN

4/18/2017 4:27:51 AM #25

I'd like to see those annoying little Grey areas or misinterpretations that cost companies millions 😈


4/18/2017 1:36:57 PM #26

Achlys, Your passion and interest are infectious, and as a human resource for organization tasks--I'd hire you in a heartbeat too!

But you lost me at 'automatic.' So modern that it pulls me out of the setting.

Medieval countries had to wait on information dissemination. So should Elyria. The barristers of the baronies will get the news (and the decision whether or not to implement the decree) as fast as scribes can write them and couriers can distribute them.

Re: rules of evidence, court standing, etc., Vornair is no doubt going to run a tight ship, advanced for its age! But I think the fun of the CoE vision is each Kingdom (and most of the fiefdoms within,) are going to get wrestle with the questions in their own way. Implementing game-wide protocols should be sparingly minimal, and automation even less.

Having said that, I hope you ignore me completely because I'll enjoy the thread and all the ideas shared far more if you do!


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