COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
For Honor Combat Style in CoE?
-10

I would like to pose three questions here, one of which is more of a suggestion.

My basic suggestion is this: SBS should consider elements of the For Honor combat system for their game, rather than going with a more traditional hotbar approach. This suggestion is based on two things: the described concept of their combat already has some commonalities with the For Honor style such as combos and skill based combat. The other is that For Honor's combat is, in my opinion, the best example of melee medieval combat that we have been exposed to thus far in gaming.

The first question for you guys is this, do you think the suggested concept of combat in CoE meshes with the For Honor system and sounds similar to it, or does it remind you of some different system? The second is whether or not you agree with my suggestion, or have another combat system in mind.

The third question is for your opinion on what games CoE should model their combat, or what games you think they ARE modelling their combat after that are already on the market.

To add some meat and reasoning for my suggestion, there are some things I would like you to consider. The For Honor system relies on the triangle for blocking and attacking at its base level, and includes the combo and special attacks along with guard breaks and parrying and such. I believe that CoE should consider a similar method of making attacks directional and able to be blocked. This style of combat is more organic and impactful than two meatshields pounding away at each others HP trying to race them to 0. Even if a directional system is not feasible, a more active attack and block style rather than pounding away mindlessly would seem in line with the game's concept.

Regarding the use of combo and special attacks, these fall in line with the already mentioned system of training, learning, and discovering techniques for combat as you progress. You wouldn't start with the ability to use those combos like you do for picking a class in For Honor, but you would learn different ones over time by discovering new attacks and chains for the different weapons. This sounds like it is already the ingame system, but it would mesh much better with an action oriented, perhaps directional attack based system like the one in For Honor.

What do you guys think, and any other examples of a good combat system are welcome! I do realize that the exact For Honor system may be hard to integrate into an MMO, but are there other action combats or directional based systems worth borrowing from?


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3/18/2017 7:44:18 PM #1
+6

The reason for honor combat works so well is because it exists in a vacuum. There is no, significant, ranged combat in For Honor. As a result, they could develop a smooth rock paper style combat experience. Add a bow, and it all falls to pieces.

It would be awesome, but implementing a system like that for melee combat would go beyond costly, with little to no pay off due to ranged weapons being largely superior.

I am interested to see what type of combat system they go with, but I imagine something closer to skyrim.

Also, For Honor is great in 1v1s, but anything more than that is awful.


3/18/2017 8:25:50 PM #2
-2

That would be an opinion, but watch any videos of 1v2 or more from decent players and you will see that the system is actually great for any number of combatants. As of right now we have no indication of what ranged combat will be like in CoE yet either, btw.


3/18/2017 8:32:45 PM #3
+2

1v2 yes, but how would it work 100 vs 100? The big thing I want in this game is good group combat.

That being said if they get it to work, and be fun, I'm not gonna vote against it. I just think more of a dark Souls combat system makes more sense with what they're trying to do here.


Merchants Beware of Ashy Sails..

3/18/2017 8:38:58 PM #4
+0

Posted By AshyLarry at 4:32 PM - Sat Mar 18 2017

1v2 yes, but how would it work 100 vs 100? The big thing I want in this game is good group combat.

That being said if they get it to work, and be fun, I'm not gonna vote against it. I just think more of a dark Souls combat system makes more sense with what they're trying to do here.

Yeah the large scale combat could certainly be an issue, I have been thinking more about the 1v1 encounters in the wild with open world PvP. But even in large scale battles I could see a version of it working. I feel like something more in depth than the ESO combat system with blocking and heavy/light attacks but maybe less small scale than For Honor could work well. Does Dark Souls use any sort of combo system?

I'm curious if the CoE devs are wanting combos to be "press 1, 2, and 3" or if you will actually chain attacks in some way. It seems to be the latter, but I am not sure how they plan to make that work.


3/18/2017 8:56:30 PM #5
+2

Dark souls has combo's in different button variations, and vast differences between how different weapons work. It's a very strategic sort of combat. If you like an RPG with a challenge I very much recommend it. The first one is probably pretty cheap on steam, and very fun (a lot of people think it's the best one still). It can feel frustrating at first, but it's very satisfying once you get the hang of it. It does use a weak attack/strong attack/parry/block system, but it's much better executed than something like ESO.

Edit: I just remembered the 1st one don't buy on PC. It's absolutely shit on PC. They did a very lazy job at porting it.


Merchants Beware of Ashy Sails..

3/18/2017 9:03:23 PM #6
+0

keep in mind the devs have a limited budget and development time, creating a complex combat system (which is essentially 90% of for honor's gameplay content, and it's a triple A game from a major developer) in an already complex game with a bunch of other mechanics that need building, polishing and testing is very difficult and would most likely not be possible with their current funds and with their development schedule.


3/18/2017 9:08:59 PM #7
+0

Posted By Jasta85 at 5:03 PM - Sat Mar 18 2017

keep in mind the devs have a limited budget and development time, creating a complex combat system (which is essentially 90% of for honor's gameplay content, and it's a triple A game from a major developer) in an already complex game with a bunch of other mechanics that need building, polishing and testing is very difficult and would most likely not be possible with their current funds and with their development schedule.

For sure, the grim reality of life is budget restraints. I feel like the game will have a hard time succeeding without a good combat concept however, like that guy with the "combat is a foundation" post. Not to be doom and gloom but kingdom warfare or open world pvp will be less impactful or interesting if combat isn't fun. And in a game where player skill matters even in crafting, it better matter in combat.


3/18/2017 9:28:30 PM #8
+1

I wasn't that impressed with the For Honour combat system. It would completely fall apart if you bring in things like cavalry, ranged combat, siege equipment etc. I mean it is OK for 1 vs 1 combat but not for much else.

Remember CoE is all about war not combat. War means you'll have battles with hundreds of people in them all using completely different weapons and using different tactics. Plus if you are expecting combat to be balanced you are going to be disappointed. There are going to players with weapons that are going to be far better than your own weapon which might make it almost impossible to beat them 1 on 1.

I think CoE will be much more exciting than For Honour even way. It will certainly be much more in-depth.


3/18/2017 9:38:43 PM #9
+0

Posted By Cromulent at 5:28 PM - Sat Mar 18 2017

I wasn't that impressed with the For Honour combat system. It would completely fall apart if you bring in things like cavalry, ranged combat, siege equipment etc. I mean it is OK for 1 vs 1 combat but not for much else.

Remember CoE is all about war not combat. War means you'll have battles with hundreds of people in them all using completely different weapons and using different tactics. Plus if you are expecting combat to be balanced you are going to be disappointed. There are going to players with weapons that are going to be far better than your own weapon which might make it almost impossible to beat them 1 on 1.

I think CoE will be much more exciting than For Honour even way. It will certainly be much more in-depth.

Combat would certainly not be balanced in the suggestion I made, I mean a player with a lot of skill but not a lot of ingame progression may be able to beat a guy with all sorts of skills and combos unlocked, but I would see that as a positive. I can't imagine trying to beat a player with all sorts of combos while I could only block and attack but if they sucked then I would have a chance I suppose lol.

My suggested system would be certainly unbalanced as it should be.


3/18/2017 9:43:58 PM #10
+0

Posted By Adriac1993 at 4:25 PM - Sat Mar 18 2017

That would be an opinion, but watch any videos of 1v2 or more from decent players and you will see that the system is actually great for any number of combatants. As of right now we have no indication of what ranged combat will be like in CoE yet either, btw.

Ranged combat of any kind is the problem. If I can hit you from afar without entering melee range, then the worth of having an overly complex melee system is lessened. Imagine we play rock paper scissors, but every time we play I through out grenade (or something) that always trumps the other three. Whats the point?

There's a reason we don't fight with swords and spears anymore.


3/18/2017 9:49:11 PM #11
-6

Posted By Kyxsune at 5:43 PM - Sat Mar 18 2017

Posted By Adriac1993 at 4:25 PM - Sat Mar 18 2017

That would be an opinion, but watch any videos of 1v2 or more from decent players and you will see that the system is actually great for any number of combatants. As of right now we have no indication of what ranged combat will be like in CoE yet either, btw.

Ranged combat of any kind is the problem. If I can hit you from afar without entering melee range, then the worth of having an overly complex melee system is lessened. Imagine we play rock paper scissors, but every time we play I through out grenade (or something) that always trumps the other three. Whats the point?

There's a reason we don't fight with swords and spears anymore.

Is your point that we shouldn't have melee combat at all? I mean that's the only logical conclusion to your argument. If we can't have a complex melee system because of ranged weapons then what makes a simple one any better?

Edit: Lol a dislike vote instead of an argument, what a childish move. You know my point trumps your terrible argument.


3/18/2017 10:30:25 PM #12
+5

At this point the most advantageous system I have seen for combat of this scale would be the Mount & Blade system which although may seem overused is still the most accessible system whilst still maintaining a high skillcap


3/18/2017 10:35:36 PM #13
+0

Posted By Adriac1993 at 5:49 PM - Sat Mar 18 2017

Posted By Kyxsune at 5:43 PM - Sat Mar 18 2017

Posted By Adriac1993 at 4:25 PM - Sat Mar 18 2017

That would be an opinion, but watch any videos of 1v2 or more from decent players and you will see that the system is actually great for any number of combatants. As of right now we have no indication of what ranged combat will be like in CoE yet either, btw.

Ranged combat of any kind is the problem. If I can hit you from afar without entering melee range, then the worth of having an overly complex melee system is lessened. Imagine we play rock paper scissors, but every time we play I through out grenade (or something) that always trumps the other three. Whats the point?

There's a reason we don't fight with swords and spears anymore.

Is your point that we shouldn't have melee combat at all? I mean that's the only logical conclusion to your argument. If we can't have a complex melee system because of ranged weapons then what makes a simple one any better?

Edit: Lol a dislike vote instead of an argument, what a childish move. You know my point trumps your terrible argument.

No, I'm saying an overly complex melee system is a waste of resources. Especially when the suggested system is the core selling point of a AAA game that spent years in development, that relies on a system largely free of ranged weapons, mounts, trebuches, and other alternatives to melee combat.

There are better solutions. Also, maybe make an actual argument instead of relying on fallacies.


3/18/2017 10:40:55 PM #14
+2

I would also like to see combat similar to For Honor in terms that it looks good not just 2 people stabbin each other until 1 wins because he has more health, but as people mentioned taking similar approach will not work out in CoE.

a player with a lot of skill but not a lot of ingame progression may be able to beat a guy with all sorts of skills and combos unlocked, but I would see that as a positive

here I agree with you - Combat should be determined by player skill, character skill and character gear:

Player skill - like you said yourself, if I can only spam 1 combo and unable to do anything else I shouldn't win just because I have better gear but my enemy has better knowledge of combat.

Character skill - here where it gets tricky, maybe you are a really good player, but your character still needs to learn to fight, you can't expect 18 y/o kid fight against a knight and win, maybe you can flawlessly perform all combos you know but you do not know how to parry efficiently yet. Let's say enemy has a plate armor, you will not do much with sword by hitting him but technically it's possible to take him out if you go for weak points in armor - now question is, does your character knows those weak points? Did he spend training/reading enough to know where and when to hit. Don't get me wrong though, you should be able to kill opponents of higher combat expertise than you but it would require them to stand still.

Character Gear - This is obvious one, a good swordsmith can make lighter and sharper blade, good armorsmith will make armor more sturdy which will help in combat.


3/18/2017 10:42:47 PM #15
+0

Posted By Harry4Eva at 6:30 PM - Sat Mar 18 2017

At this point the most advantageous system I have seen for combat of this scale would be the Mount & Blade system which although may seem overused is still the most accessible system whilst still maintaining a high skillcap

Simple, deep, and accessible. Still, balancing may be a problem because archer armies could become prevalent again.


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