COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
For Honor Combat Style in CoE?
-10

I would like to pose three questions here, one of which is more of a suggestion.

My basic suggestion is this: SBS should consider elements of the For Honor combat system for their game, rather than going with a more traditional hotbar approach. This suggestion is based on two things: the described concept of their combat already has some commonalities with the For Honor style such as combos and skill based combat. The other is that For Honor's combat is, in my opinion, the best example of melee medieval combat that we have been exposed to thus far in gaming.

The first question for you guys is this, do you think the suggested concept of combat in CoE meshes with the For Honor system and sounds similar to it, or does it remind you of some different system? The second is whether or not you agree with my suggestion, or have another combat system in mind.

The third question is for your opinion on what games CoE should model their combat, or what games you think they ARE modelling their combat after that are already on the market.

To add some meat and reasoning for my suggestion, there are some things I would like you to consider. The For Honor system relies on the triangle for blocking and attacking at its base level, and includes the combo and special attacks along with guard breaks and parrying and such. I believe that CoE should consider a similar method of making attacks directional and able to be blocked. This style of combat is more organic and impactful than two meatshields pounding away at each others HP trying to race them to 0. Even if a directional system is not feasible, a more active attack and block style rather than pounding away mindlessly would seem in line with the game's concept.

Regarding the use of combo and special attacks, these fall in line with the already mentioned system of training, learning, and discovering techniques for combat as you progress. You wouldn't start with the ability to use those combos like you do for picking a class in For Honor, but you would learn different ones over time by discovering new attacks and chains for the different weapons. This sounds like it is already the ingame system, but it would mesh much better with an action oriented, perhaps directional attack based system like the one in For Honor.

What do you guys think, and any other examples of a good combat system are welcome! I do realize that the exact For Honor system may be hard to integrate into an MMO, but are there other action combats or directional based systems worth borrowing from?


3/20/2017 2:13:18 AM #31
+3

Hello! Adriac I would recommend looking up combat demos from their PAX appearance (not the last one) such as: combat video

I don't think that one shows the combo trees but there are combos, and can be customised between combinations of left clicking and right clicking. In the video it's a hard lock system, but in the actual game a soft lock-on system is planned on being implemented. Also in the video there was a small bug that popped up during PAX that the counter time was much shorter than planned. Hopefully that helps give you a better sense of the combat style they're going for. :)

3/20/2017 3:11:08 AM #32
+1

@Wall, those are passive systems or you click a skill that makes you do that for x number of seconds. We're talking about real mechanics where you actively dodge or block.


3/20/2017 3:37:48 AM #33
+0

What I'm figuring out is that this community hates For Honor and is taking it out on me for liking the innovation behind their combat system lol.


3/20/2017 4:01:13 AM #34
+4

Posted By Adriac1993 at 03:37 AM - Mon Mar 20 2017

What I'm figuring out is that this community hates For Honor and is taking it out on me for liking the innovation behind their combat system lol.

I wouldn't worry about down votes. People get down voted here for stupid reasons. I just don't think For Honour is a good example because combat is going to be so much different than For Honour. There are going to be things that are just impossible in For Honour.

I mean how would For Honour combat help you against a cavalry charge for instance? Answer is it wouldn't. It would suck. You've got to think much bigger than For Honour to get an idea of what CoE is going to be like. For Honour is basically just 1 versus 1 combat which will just be a small part of combat in CoE.


3/20/2017 4:29:47 AM #35
+0

Posted By Cromulent at 12:01 AM - Mon Mar 20 2017

Posted By Adriac1993 at 03:37 AM - Mon Mar 20 2017

What I'm figuring out is that this community hates For Honor and is taking it out on me for liking the innovation behind their combat system lol.

I wouldn't worry about down votes. People get down voted here for stupid reasons. I just don't think For Honour is a good example because combat is going to be so much different than For Honour. There are going to be things that are just impossible in For Honour.

I mean how would For Honour combat help you against a cavalry charge for instance? Answer is it wouldn't. It would suck. You've got to think much bigger than For Honour to get an idea of what CoE is going to be like. For Honour is basically just 1 versus 1 combat which will just be a small part of combat in CoE.

I definitely agree. My whole purpose has been to highlight a relatively new combat system out there and look for ideas on how to implement a similar action and skill based system into an MMO such as this one. For Honor has very limited ranged and no cavalry and so a copy-paste wouldn't work for sure. There are certainly elements of it that Soulbound has already stated will be in this game, such as combo attacks like I suggested in my unpopular OP.


3/20/2017 5:03:57 AM #36
+0

This is where i kinda disagree with you again, because I hardly see it as innovative. Ubisoft don't even know how to spell innovative.

They took combat that existed in a bunch of games already (ie. directional swings and blocks), and just added the lock on system that was intentionally taken out in the first place. They needed it though because they focus on consoles. They then lazily decided to pad out the battlefield with 'minions' like a MOBA. Boom, innovation?

I'm willing to hear out all ideas, but of course you are getting downvoted for suggesting the game strive to be like For Honor. It is the latest example of churned out, mass appeal, arcade garbage - having a little tri-section icon doesn't change that. And you are on the forums of a game trying to step away from the main stream, so of course people are going to cringe when you mention the latest CoD kiddy release.


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3/20/2017 2:31:33 PM #37
+0

Ubisoft has been the most innovative company in my experience over the last few years. Their problem is that they don't know how to make a fun game around those innovations. Take Far Cry Primal for instance, the running and fighting physics in that game are cutting edge. You actually feel like you're running and jumping and sliding down hills, and it is the most realistic I have experienced. I enjoyed that game briefly until it got old and repetitive because all of the content is the exact same, a common Ubisoft failure. But the mechanics they put in their games are pretty unique among the industry from my personal experience.

If SBS took the directional based system of For Honor without the lock-on-target mechanic, and added the archery and sneak mechanics of Far Cry Primal, then we would have some pretty intense and realistic action-based combat.

By the way, anyone who comments on For Honor when they haven't played it has no merit. The world has enough critics with 0 knowledge, and enough critics in general. For Honor requires superb timing, focus, reaction, and savvy to take down your target. The system isn't perfect and as I have said in every post, it should not be 100% copy and pasted in any way. But CoE would benefit from a skill-based action oriented system of combat and For Honor is our most current example of how to implement that. And if you actually have examples of games that Ubisoft apparently copied this combat from then why does nobody ever name a specific? I'll tell you that I haven't seen anything remotely close to the style they implemented and therefore whether you like the system or not it is in fact innovative.


3/20/2017 5:00:54 PM #38
+0

Posted By Themata at 01:03 AM - Mon Mar 20 2017

They took combat that existed in a bunch of games already (ie. directional swings and blocks), and just added the lock on system that was intentionally taken out in the first place. They needed it though because they focus on consoles. They then lazily decided to pad out the battlefield with 'minions' like a MOBA. Boom, innovation?

Eh...no. Before I chime in, I'm in the bandwagon of having combat more Dark Souls-y but there's still a bit of discrepancy here that needs to be sorted out.

For Honor combat isn't just swinging weapons around and making it like a hack-and-slash MOBA with Mount and Blade directional combat but instead the whole thing is a legit fighting game. The top attack, bottom right attack, and bottom left attack is more akin to fighting games high, medium, low targets. They have heavies and lights, cancels to the heavies, grabs and grab-cancels, invincibility frames, different charge up times, and even movesets dedicated to each character and not just their archtype. Hell, half the stuff in here is applicable to For Honor. They then have archtypes of characters, the Speed hitting characters (let's say the Peacekeeper, Orochi, and Berserker are pressure characters like Fei Long in Street Fighter), the Base characters (like the Shotokan's ala Ryu or Ken being the equivalent to the Warden, Raider, and Kensei), the Heavy characters (Zangief to For Honor's Lawbringer and those other heavy dudes), and a hybrid character that serves a certain niche like Juri Han.

Somebody who glosses over the surface could say it's as simple as rock paper scissors but once you get into the advanced gameplays you got fights where a Warden will try to feint a top heavy to force a heavy from their opponent just to cancel it with a top crushing counter against a Berserker's special.

Yes they got inspiration from Mount and Blade, but they made it into a fighting game like Street Fighter or Tekken which makes those personal fights so intense.

Would this combat translate nicely to 100 v 100 melee combat? Eh don't know, but one take away from For Honor is that they have two modes of combat, the lock-on duel fighting game and the Dynasty Warrior super murder fest mode. Maybe SBS could translate the Dynasty Warrior super murder fest mode to instead non-target hit where-ever you look at mode but keep that duel mode. Just an idea. I dig where they're going right now, but tossing an idea out there doesn't hurt.


3/20/2017 5:55:53 PM #39
+0

Posted By Jouten at 1:00 PM - Mon Mar 20 2017

Posted By Themata at 01:03 AM - Mon Mar 20 2017

They took combat that existed in a bunch of games already (ie. directional swings and blocks), and just added the lock on system that was intentionally taken out in the first place. They needed it though because they focus on consoles. They then lazily decided to pad out the battlefield with 'minions' like a MOBA. Boom, innovation?

Eh...no. Before I chime in, I'm in the bandwagon of having combat more Dark Souls-y but there's still a bit of discrepancy here that needs to be sorted out.

For Honor combat isn't just swinging weapons around and making it like a hack-and-slash MOBA with Mount and Blade directional combat but instead the whole thing is a legit fighting game. The top attack, bottom right attack, and bottom left attack is more akin to fighting games high, medium, low targets. They have heavies and lights, cancels to the heavies, grabs and grab-cancels, invincibility frames, different charge up times, and even movesets dedicated to each character and not just their archtype. Hell, half the stuff in here is applicable to For Honor. They then have archtypes of characters, the Speed hitting characters (let's say the Peacekeeper, Orochi, and Berserker are pressure characters like Fei Long in Street Fighter), the Base characters (like the Shotokan's ala Ryu or Ken being the equivalent to the Warden, Raider, and Kensei), the Heavy characters (Zangief to For Honor's Lawbringer and those other heavy dudes), and a hybrid character that serves a certain niche like Juri Han.

Somebody who glosses over the surface could say it's as simple as rock paper scissors but once you get into the advanced gameplays you got fights where a Warden will try to feint a top heavy to force a heavy from their opponent just to cancel it with a top crushing counter against a Berserker's special.

Yes they got inspiration from Mount and Blade, but they made it into a fighting game like Street Fighter or Tekken which makes those personal fights so intense.

Would this combat translate nicely to 100 v 100 melee combat? Eh don't know, but one take away from For Honor is that they have two modes of combat, the lock-on duel fighting game and the Dynasty Warrior super murder fest mode. Maybe SBS could translate the Dynasty Warrior super murder fest mode to instead non-target hit where-ever you look at mode but keep that duel mode. Just an idea. I dig where they're going right now, but tossing an idea out there doesn't hurt.

Very well said, there is a lot of depth to the For Honor combat system and you highlighted better than I have. I don't know either exactly how it could be translated into MMO games but that style should serve as a stepping point to improving combat in the MMO genre.


3/20/2017 7:27:14 PM #40
+0

For honor combat wouldn't work in this kind of game. And Ubisoft, innovative? They haven't even moved past a cash shop yet.


3/20/2017 10:44:33 PM #41
-1

Posted By Themata at 12:03 AM - Mon Mar 20 2017

This is where i kinda disagree with you again, because I hardly see it as innovative. Ubisoft don't even know how to spell innovative.

They took combat that existed in a bunch of games already (ie. directional swings and blocks), and just added the lock on system that was intentionally taken out in the first place. They needed it though because they focus on consoles. They then lazily decided to pad out the battlefield with 'minions' like a MOBA. Boom, innovation?

I'm willing to hear out all ideas, but of course you are getting downvoted for suggesting the game strive to be like For Honor. It is the latest example of churned out, mass appeal, arcade garbage - having a little tri-section icon doesn't change that. And you are on the forums of a game trying to step away from the mainstream, so of course, people are going to cringe when you mention the latest CoD kiddy release.

Couldn't agree more with this right here, having played the FH beta prior to the release this is not anything like how I'd like to have combat in COE.

Hell, the gif that is shown there has a giant knight swinging around a giant two handed sword like it's made of fucking paper. Not the level of realism I'm hoping for from SBS tbh...


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3/20/2017 11:18:49 PM #42
+0

Posted By Kyxsune at 3:44 PM - Sat Mar 18 2017

The reason for honor combat works so well is because it exists in a vacuum. There is no, significant, ranged combat in For Honor. As a result, they could develop a smooth rock paper style combat experience. Add a bow, and it all falls to pieces.

It would be awesome, but implementing a system like that for melee combat would go beyond costly, with little to no pay off due to ranged weapons being largely superior.

I am interested to see what type of combat system they go with, but I imagine something closer to skyrim.

Also, For Honor is great in 1v1s, but anything more than that is awful.

But For Honor does have ranged weaponry through feats, yeah they aren't the core skill sets of each hero but it is there and very deadly if you aren't expecting it.

I also have to personally disagree on 1v1s being the "the best", it's boring and is nothing but a "Who can get Revenge Mode first?" mind game with people turtling or camping ledges for cheesey wins.

3/21/2017 12:43:52 AM #43
+0

Posted By Lunaus at 3/20/2017 11:18:49 PM

Posted By Kyxsune at 3:44 PM - Sat Mar 18 2017

The reason for honor combat works so well is because it exists in a vacuum. There is no, significant, ranged combat in For Honor. As a result, they could develop a smooth rock paper style combat experience. Add a bow, and it all falls to pieces.

It would be awesome, but implementing a system like that for melee combat would go beyond costly, with little to no pay off due to ranged weapons being largely superior.

I am interested to see what type of combat system they go with, but I imagine something closer to skyrim.

Also, For Honor is great in 1v1s, but anything more than that is awful.

But For Honor does have ranged weaponry through feats, yeah they aren't the core skill sets of each hero but it is there and very deadly if you aren't expecting it.

I also have to personally disagree on 1v1s being the "the best", it's boring and is nothing but a "Who can get Revenge Mode first?" mind game with people turtling or camping ledges for cheesey wins.

Facts aren't welcome here Lunaus lol. Don't try to say anything good about Ubisoft or For Honor or even something that can be remotely perceived as saying you played the game and didn't burn your computer afterwards.

How someone can watch the GIF and insult the realism of the combat or the animations is beyond me. The For Honor team specifically went to great detail making the combat styles more in line with reality than some modern movie representation. Sure, in every game our characters wear armor and wield weapons more easily than in reality. In reality it took a team to armor a knight and if he fell down the armor made it impossible to stand up. They could barely move in a suit of full plate armor and if you fell into water you were certain to drown. If that's the realism that you think is befitting this game then I don't even know what to say to you. It's not like For Honor looks like Final Fantasy with people spinning around swords twice their size with a flick of a wrist while everyone looks like they weigh 130lbs.

It's amazing how a thread asking for suggestions of a good combat style for CoE has devolved into a bash-fest of a well-made and popular game. I'm glad that when this game launches the handful of you with only negative things to say about every title and developer out there right now with represent less than 1% of the game population or the game's community would be insufferable to talk to.


3/21/2017 1:12:53 AM #44
-2

The great news is that we don't need you to come up with the perfect combat style for COE, there is already a team at SBS that is going to tackle it ;)

This devolved into this because you said you wanted FH style combat and you cannot seem to accept that there are others out there who didn't like the game like you did and don't want that style in COE. I'd say if anyone is insufferable it's the people that constantly feel like SBS needs their constant input on how to do each aspect of the game. The only thing they need from us at this point is our feedback when they say they are at a point where they need it.


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3/21/2017 1:28:11 AM #45
-1

I just don't agree with you mate, doesn't mean everyone is just having a knee-jerk reaction just because they don't like Ubisoft or For Honor. I think both have their place in the industry/art form, that place just isn't here.

Furthermore, just because For Honor is the most recent melee combat focused game doesn't make it the objective best and that everyone else should look to it as a basis to build off. As I've already said, it is an arcadey, flashy combat system that is made to fulfil a very limited set of requirements.

It just isn't compatible in my opinion.


Currently planning the settlement of Bladelock, a fringe outpost in the wilderness of the APAC server. Join the Duchy of Kybourne Discord if you would like to talk about joining us, or even just get to know some of the APAC community. If you are new to the community, the Design Journals will answer a lot of your questions.

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