COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
Policies of war

Good morning everyone, There's a thing that came up to my mind and i would like elucidations on that matter: The political structure of the game is Kingdom > Duchy > County > Keeps and Towns on the same level.

Counties end to be relatively small (i read about few hundreds people on average) while kingdoms end up having several dozens of thousands of players.

In this scenario, i was wondering what kind of warfare are we gonna expect in the game if realistic restrictions were applied to people.

A war between 2 kingdoms is something that affects a great part of the players (at least 2/5 of the population, in average, if you have 5 kingdoms in a continent). It would require a lot of effort and organization to take place properly and very demanding for both sides. This leads to the assumption that war between kingdoms shouldn't happen that often. Outside that, a Kingdom and Duchy should not be happy about 2 or more counties fighting each other and would probably try to stop and prevent them (in the end counties demand protection from enemies, and having few counties fighting each other is not good for a kingdom's economy) About counties fighting counties from other kingdoms... It's very risky cause recieving support from your duchy and kingdom would result in rapid war escalation, but if you don't recieve any aid you are probably gonna be crushed by the defending county who probably gonna recieve support (in the end they were attacked and they simply want to defend themselves)

What are your thoughts about this?

P.S. Bonus question so i don't have to open another thread, haven't found an answer althoug i'm sure it's been probably discussed somewhere: is it possibile for a county to detach from its duchy and kingdom and become independent?


"Non Semel Victor, Sed Semper Primus"

5/19/2017 8:25:29 AM #1

P.S. Bonus question so i don't have to open another thread, haven't found an answer althoug i'm sure it's been probably discussed somewhere: is it possibile for a county to detach from its duchy and kingdom and become independent?

Possible, yes. Likely to actually happen, no. Any count claiming independence is going to be making a lot powerful enemies and will likely be "removed" one way or another. For a kingdom to fracture I think it would take the unification of multiple duchies uprising against a weak and unsupported king.

5/19/2017 9:27:23 AM #2

Posted By Laax at

A war between 2 kingdoms is something that affects a great part of the players (at least 2/5 of the population, in average, if you have 5 kingdoms in a continent). It would require a lot of effort and organization to take place properly and very demanding for both sides. This leads to the assumption that war between kingdoms shouldn't happen that often.

True.

Outside that, a Kingdom and Duchy should not be happy about 2 or more counties fighting each other and would probably try to stop and prevent them (in the end counties demand protection from enemies, and having few counties fighting each other is not good for a kingdrom's economy)

If any Kingdom prides itself on harboring ambitious players (Read: Most successful kind of player), they will want to not dissuade conflict within the Kingdom unless there are more pressing matters at hand. Its actually healthy for the Kingdom. It allows the more skilled and ambitious to take power away from the less skilled and content. I wouldn't also say it's "bad" for the economy. War means higher demands for certain goods which is good for business, and higher taxes, good for the state.

About counties fighting counties from other kingdoms... It's very risky cause recieving support from your duchy and kingdom would result in rapid war escalation, but if you don't recieve any aid you are probably gonna be crushed by the defending county who probably gonna recieve support (in the end they were attacked and they simply want to defend themselves)

True.

P.S. Bonus question so i don't have to open another thread, haven't found an answer althoug i'm sure it's been probably discussed somewhere: is it possibile for a county to detach from its duchy and kingdom and become independent?

Pretty sure, yeah.


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5/19/2017 10:03:35 AM #3

First kingdom to institute a draft?


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5/19/2017 10:56:09 AM #4

Posted By Apaukolypse at 11:27 AM - Fri May 19 2017

If any Kingdom prides itself on harboring ambitious players (Read: Most successful kind of player), they will want to not dissuade conflict within the Kingdom unless there are more pressing matters at hand. Its actually healthy for the Kingdom. It allows the more skilled and ambitious to take power away from the less skilled and content. I wouldn't also say it's "bad" for the economy. War means higher demands for certain goods which is good for business, and higher taxes, good for the state.

I see your point, but I wouldn't feel confident about it. Ofc, if there's a conflict started by both sides (beginning with minor skirmishes , assassination attempts ecc) it could be logical for kings and dukes to let counties sort out the situation, but in case of a true one way aggression i, as the attacked count, would feel bad if my king or duke doesn't give me the protection i need (and pay for) .

About economy... I think it depends on how clean the fight is. If both sides damage villages,towns, kill peasants... The consequences are not small


"Non Semel Victor, Sed Semper Primus"

5/19/2017 10:58:19 AM #5

Posted By KalTheo at 12:03 PM - Fri May 19 2017

First kingdom to institute a draft?

I don't understand what do you mean with "draft", sir.


"Non Semel Victor, Sed Semper Primus"

5/19/2017 11:00:57 AM #6

Posted By Apaukolypse at 10:27 AM - Fri May 19 2017

I wouldn't also say it's "bad" for the economy. War means higher demands for certain goods which is good for business, and higher taxes, good for the state.

I would like to discuss if the economy will really take benefits.

First, we don't know how will the NPCs, which live in the county, react if it is in a state of constant turmoil. Perhaps there is a "happiness" parameter that could make then emigrate or prepare a rebellion.

Second, War is costly. Remember that the equipment, provisions, everything is finite. In a long war you will have an absurd increment of the public expenditure in order to re-equip and feed your troops.

Also, if the war is a "total war", a conflict in which you attack civilian buildings and citizens, the cost will be even higher. You will have to reconstruct houses, production buildings... if you add to the mix full loot the cost is... pretty high.

You will, probably, need to borrow money from other parties. Of course, you will return the credit with interests.

Another cost will be the citizens. In this game you can die more than one time, but in a context of constant conflict, your working population could decrease dramatically.

In addition, i don't think that the traders will feel secure traveling in a war zone. The commerce will decrease. The ones that will benefit are the moneylenders of the belligerents territories and the companies dedicated to produce tools for the military.

Finally, the prices will surely go up, so you will have a problem of inflation.

Of course, war also have some beneficial effects from a economical perspective. You would push forward the technological development due to necessities of the war.

Also, your architects will have work with the rebuilding effort... If you have outdated infrastructures, you could uses the debris to construct modern buildings.

Generally speaking, the cost is too high, and in a game like this it could be the same.

Posted By Apaukolypse at 10:27 AM - Fri May 19 2017

If any Kingdom prides itself on harboring ambitious players (Read: Most successful kind of player), they will want to not dissuade conflict within the Kingdom unless there are more pressing matters at hand. Its actually healthy for the Kingdom. It allows the more skilled and ambitious to take power away from the less skilled and content.

Perhaps a Kingdom with this philosophy should create a couple of internal "War Laws" in order to minimize the cost that a total war could produce.

War Laws to ensure that you maximize the benefits and minimize the costs.


5/19/2017 11:03:14 AM #7

Posted By Laax at 03:58 AM - Fri May 19 2017

Posted By KalTheo at 12:03 PM - Fri May 19 2017

First kingdom to institute a draft?

I don't understand what do you mean with "draft", sir.

Draft: compulsory recruitment for military service.


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5/19/2017 11:26:32 AM #8

I agree with almost everything Apauk said. Nice analysis!

My only minor quibble would be the adage 'war is good for the economy.' From a certain perspective it can be. (Up until a generation ago, 90% of technology originated from military funded R&D before descending to 50%ish nowadays.) Defense infrastructure and commerce is kept thriving by 'the economic consumption of arms' [aka war,] and many a ruler past and present will say maintaining a competent war machine and domestic political control require having a live war at least once per generation. (Saddam Hussein even explicitly admitted as much to explain his motives for invading Kuwait in the 90s!)

Having said that, war is the destruction of resources, not their cultivation. A wartime economy may look impressive for a while, but it can never last. Where burning farmlands and cities along with racking up a death toll in your wake is sound strategy--spoils can take years to restore to a usable state. In the meantime, the fuels being burned to sustain a war (and an occupation after it ends) are coming from home, behind the lines.

I agree completely with Apauk, a wise Duke/King is going to permit skirmishes between his counts...up to a point. Leadership talent must be cultivated and war readiness must be maintained. But if a County's bounty is being consumed on rivalry instead of the Duchy's economic benefit--it's probably time to step in and force a peace. (If a Duke/King is actually strong enough to do so.)

What that point is is hard to say, since in Elyria permadeath is a tricky proposition and nothing is as flammable as it is here on Earth. This may mean intra-Kingdom wars flare up more often with fewer consequences.

[Edit: While I was writing this post, Hludowig spelled out most of these points first, and rather well!]


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5/19/2017 11:59:34 AM #9

Posted By Hludowig at 06:00 AM - Fri May 19 2017

>

Posted By Apaukolypse at 10:27 AM - Fri May 19 2017

If any Kingdom prides itself on harboring ambitious players (Read: Most successful kind of player), they will want to not dissuade conflict within the Kingdom unless there are more pressing matters at hand. Its actually healthy for the Kingdom. It allows the more skilled and ambitious to take power away from the less skilled and content.

Perhaps a Kingdom with this philosophy should create a couple of internal "War Laws" in order to minimize the cost that a total war could produce.

War Laws to ensure that you maximize the benefits and minimize the costs.

I think this is a fabulous idea.


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5/19/2017 12:11:52 PM #10

Posted By Apaukolypse at 05:27 AM - Fri May 19 2017

If any Kingdom prides itself on harboring ambitious players (Read: Most successful kind of player), they will want to not dissuade conflict within the Kingdom unless there are more pressing matters at hand. Its actually healthy for the Kingdom. It allows the more skilled and ambitious to take power away from the less skilled and content. I wouldn't also say it's "bad" for the economy. War means higher demands for certain goods which is good for business, and higher taxes, good for the state.

This is an interesting viewpoint, possibly like using dynamite to light a campfire? Will be interesting to see how communities that employ this philosophy develop versus those that do not.


5/19/2017 12:38:01 PM #11

How about making money from war? I'm talking about ransacking towns and stealing treasures from other kingdoms. There will be full loot which means you can kill players and take their items and also I think there will be option to steal gold from kingdoms treasury. So prepare weapons and carts as you might need them for the stolen gold and items.


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5/19/2017 5:50:57 PM #12

Another way that come up to my mind is using rebellions as a way to depose your enemies. If your neighbour county piss you off badly, you could try to start and support a rebellion from another family, backing its claim to rule. If you succeed you can expect to have a count that is grateful to you and won't ask for vengeance


"Non Semel Victor, Sed Semper Primus"

5/19/2017 6:47:39 PM #13

I think to keep this realistic, war should be a last resort, considering the cost of it. You will need to drag siege equipment through complicated terrain in order to get through your enemies walls. A good Kingdom will have a patrol that pulls the plug on this quick.

I am all for combatal skirmishes and political conflict; on a small or private scale; but a full on war and the destruction of a kingdom keep should be difficult and rare to obtain. This Monarch will have to have really pissed the realm off, to have war bestowed upon him/her.

But if we see 12 Kingdom sieges going on every day, (at every hour) this will be chaos. Siege and war should be a rare thing...an eventful part of Elyria's story.


5/19/2017 7:01:19 PM #14

Posted By Hludowig at 07:00 AM - Fri May 19 2017

I would like to discuss if the economy will really take benefits.

I don't remember saying it was good for the economy. I just remember saying it wasn't bad for it.

First, we don't know how will the NPCs, which live in the county, react if it is in a state of constant turmoil. Perhaps there is a "happiness" parameter that could make then emigrate or prepare a rebellion.

That is fair....for NPCs. My counter argument to this is that players would want to be where the action is. I know I do. Nothing is more interesting than conflict.

Second, War is costly. Remember that the equipment, provisions, everything is finite. In a long war you will have an absurd increment of the public expenditure in order to re-equip and feed your troops.

Costly...for the State. The people who they BUY supplies from, not so much.

Also, if the war is a "total war", a conflict in which you attack civilian buildings and citizens, the cost will be even higher. You will have to reconstruct houses, production buildings... if you add to the mix full loot the cost is... pretty high.

I am 99% sure that in Kingdoms allowing for internal wars, like Vornair, they have a set of laws for the wars. Meaning, no unnecessary destruction of civilian targets and the like.

You will, probably, need to borrow money from other parties. Of course, you will return the credit with interests.

It is a possibility. I don't expect County vs. County wars or even Duchy vs. Duchy wars to last very long though, so I think it is unlikely. If war in this game works close to any other game, it is far more likely that there will be a few big battles, maybe some skirmishes, and its essentially over. My expectation is more constant, short lived squabbles (fairly cheap) than total warfare (incredibly expensive).

Another cost will be the citizens. In this game you can die more than one time, but in a context of constant conflict, your working population could decrease dramatically.

Possibly. But from the look of things, alot of Nobles are adopting more professional, standing armies, so I think the actual strain on the working population won't be that high.

In addition, i don't think that the traders will feel secure traveling in a war zone. The commerce will decrease. The ones that will benefit are the moneylenders of the belligerents territories and the companies dedicated to produce tools for the military.

You underestimate traders. As I said, if my experience with all other games is any indication, players will want to be where the action is. Including the traders.

Finally, the prices will surely go up, so you will have a problem of inflation.

I mean, prices will only be inflating due to high demand. So again, I don't really see that as necessarily "bad" indicator for the economy. (This is also why the Traders would be there)

Generally speaking, the cost is too high, and in a game like this it could be the same.

I have a fairly high degree of confidence War won't be near as terrible as it is in real life.

Perhaps a Kingdom with this philosophy should create a couple of internal "War Laws" in order to minimize the cost that a total war could produce.

War Laws to ensure that you maximize the benefits and minimize the costs.

As I said earlier, 99% sure Kingdoms who allow internal wars have already done this. I am also like 60% sure Kingdoms will establish the rules of engagement before beating the crap out of each other as well.


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5/19/2017 7:19:33 PM #15

My best friend is going to be the king of weasel town. I am going to assassinate the family of a famous allied king and declare it was by the order of my king - This will be on my first account. War will be rampant!

On another account i will enlist the help of mercenaries to insight violence breaking the bonds of those of my choosing - War will rampant!

I have no idea what i just said, but it sounds sexy as hell.