I have little to no interest in combat. It's one of the reasons I have played so few MMO's over the years.

My understanding is that the current plans for combat in CoE are for there to be a high skill gap, with low "chance". I approve of this decision for two reasons:

1. This is the intention for all skills. While I don't enjoy combat, many of the other skills look much more appealing to me. For the skills I enjoy, the challenge of a complex system with a variety of difficulty levels is part of the appeal. I don't begrudge those who enjoy combat having a similarly enjoyable gameplay experience.

2. This is not a 1v1 fighting game. SbS has stated that numbers and resource management will also have a significant impact on combat. While I do intend to have some basic combat skills, I also intend to be part of an established community with access to the resources necessary to keep my character reasonably well-fed, well-rested, and well-armed. This means that someone who wants to challenge us in battle will need to consider not only their combat skills compared to ours, but also their numbers and resources compared to ours. A significant skill gap will make up for some lack of numbers and resources, but anyone relying too heavily on one skill will have other vulnerabilities to exploit.

Ah you're right. I completely forgot about the effects on your character outside of just 1v1'ing your opponent. The focus on my question was directly in regards to whether or not combat should be only about those with the skills to back it up, but completely forgot about how that "balance" could totally be upset via in-game fatigue. Still though, for the "core" mechanics of combat (the 1v1 or 1vMany aspect), I'd like to know whether or not greater input lag forgiveness and lack of combat diversity for ease of accessibility should be the approach or if there'll be a push for those with greater "skill" (those with faster reaction times, mix-ups, knowledge of hit-boxes and frames, etc.) to remain supreme.

Done my fair share of button mashing stabby stabby pvp in other games, never been that interested in being a top player so never bothered trying to get that good at it.

The simple approach of attack and dodge with the click of two separate buttons, letting reflexes of the player and their ability to read the opponent be the deciding factors more so than gear sounds good enough.

Running out of stamina so you cant endlessly slaughter weaklings around you is also as it should be.

As long as I do not need multiple keybindings or learn rotation order of a bunch of attacks, blocks and all the other special crap I am happy.

Simplicity lets everyone have a go at it even when surprise attacked and still lets the dedicated show off some skills.

As the profession mini games will need certain player skills - steady hand to follow a cut out pattern or what not - I do not think battle need to be easy mode either.

CoE is not a fighting game :P

Sure, you can fight in CoE. But thats not what the game is about. At least not, if the only fighting you see is combat related.

I'm hoping there will be enough incentive to only need to fight other players as needed, and that it won't be a gank fest of people running around. I'm certainly coming to this game for the "social" PvP aspect - to try and build up an awesome settlement and manage resources. I will not fight anything other than the environment as frequently as possible!

I've seen that video, and did a comparison between fighting games elsewhere as a result. It's essentially thr Brawl/Melee conundrum.

The problem with trying to apply the same logic to an MMO, is the inherent additional uncertainty provided by the platform. Ping, Number of bodies in combat, and the ever present potential for a glitch make the potential for completely skill based approach difficult. Mobas have the same issue, which is why tournaments happen on the same network, and the input windows for abilities are long (relative to Fighting games).

So in order to promote skilled play but reduce the effects of uncertainty, a dev has few options in an MMO. Typically this comes down to rotation/buff abuse , skill shot vs AoE vs click trigger design, or Numbers based combat.

It is uncertain which direction CoE is headed, but I bet some form of Numbers Based combat is inevitable, with an emphasis on rotations and skillshots, due to the low fantasy environment. This gives a high skillcap while sidestepping the issue of uncertainty due to the numbers playing a role.

This also naturally makes 1v1s high skill, while the skill cieling for group combat lowers as the number of combatants rise.

ESO attempted this, but due to its server technology, tripped (at least at launch).

This game will live or die if the combat is good or not. But the bit that would make the games combat feel good, isn't how precise your block or parry is, it's actually the animation quality.

This game is going for the more skill based approch, but just like in most action RPGs, the skill Gap will not be that high, there will be one. There is also a luck factor that some people are hoping exists. (I personally disagree with a critical chance roll)

If the combat is rubbish there would be a bit of it, but not many people will actively stay, because the meat of the game isn't trading, it could be for some people. The truth in the matter is adventuring, soldier and other jobs you can take that uses combat will be important to have that refined. They need to make it fun and engaging.

If the animations aren't there.

If the sound isn't there.

Your weapon needs to feel like a weapon when you are using it, meaning it will bounce back if it makes contact, and the person's flinch should be convincing and part of the combat.

No matter how simplistic the hit boxes are, they need to nail the 4 things with combat, Animation, Sounds, Reactions for being hit, and reactions about how dodging/parrying looks.

They need to pay attention and make it fun, make the weapons feel like weapons that have weight. You don't want to have it just seem like every animation is just there to be serviceable. Else, there will be a lack of potential players.

From the 3 videos i have seen, the animation, and sound needs a ton of work, as well as the parry mechanic needs to exist. If they spend as much time as they are with the mobility, they are well on their way. We need something hopefully better than melee combat.

I feel the sword shouldn't be positioned on the back it makes no sense. If they are trying to make a pseudo-realistic themed game.

Posted By CommonlyQuixotic at 07:23 AM - Wed Jun 07 2017

I have little to no interest in combat. It's one of the reasons I have played so few MMO's over the years.

My understanding is that the current plans for combat in CoE are for there to be a high skill gap, with low "chance". I approve of this decision for two reasons:

1. This is the intention for all skills. While I don't enjoy combat, many of the other skills look much more appealing to me. For the skills I enjoy, the challenge of a complex system with a variety of difficulty levels is part of the appeal. I don't begrudge those who enjoy combat having a similarly enjoyable gameplay experience.

2. This is not a 1v1 fighting game. SbS has stated that numbers and resource management will also have a significant impact on combat. While I do intend to have some basic combat skills, I also intend to be part of an established community with access to the resources necessary to keep my character reasonably well-fed, well-rested, and well-armed. This means that someone who wants to challenge us in battle will need to consider not only their combat skills compared to ours, but also their numbers and resources compared to ours. A significant skill gap will make up for some lack of numbers and resources, but anyone relying too heavily on one skill will have other vulnerabilities to exploit.

There will be gladiatorial combat. They mentioned this on more than one occasion that there will be an important facet that WILL be one v one.

I think we can't really talk about the combat system, without involving crafting.

You should be able to make your weapon a bit longer, or lighter, or distribute the weight differently, to influence reach, speed, damage and durability. So, IF crafting allows this degree of customizing weapons, it will always stay a bit of a wild card.

Keeping that in mind, I think most of the combat should be at a speed where you can feasibly react to it. Only certain weapons, like small swords, or daggers should be usable at speeds, where reacting is stupidly difficult, but should in turn be completely ineffective vs. heavier forms of armor.

I think however you should have to comit to actions. Feints should not be canceled moves, but a distinct form of attack. No spamming parry, if you want to block something for sure, trust in your armor/shield.

I also think mastery of just one aspect of combat should not make you untouchable, like, you can parry everything on reaction, now you are the king. There should always be a counter even a novice can use, to get you out of that kind of comfort zone.

To summarize: I hope they make weapons, and thus movesets highly customizable, while still keeping things balanced around reaction and armor. There should however always be a way, for even bad fighters, to for example kill people who just parry everything, so mastering one aspect of combat should not make you invincible. (e.g. flails might be unparryable, arrows can't be parried etc.)

Also keep in mind that controller support is intended by SBS.

Therefore combat should feel natural with a gamepad, and kbm.

This changes the dynamic a bit, especially concerning skill gap, so keep it in mind.

Posted By Arslonga at 11:17 AM - Wed Jun 07 2017

Posted By Kyxsune at 6:01 PM - Wed Jun 07 2017

Also keep in mind that controller support is intended by SBS.

Therefore combat should feel natural with a gamepad, and kbm.

This changes the dynamic a bit, especially concerning skill gap, so keep it in mind.

But supporting doesn't necessarily mean making equal. They did not say they intend people to play with controller. It's just an option, no (as it is in many games, actually)?

I didn't say equal. However, designing with controller as an option in mind changes a LOT. Typically adjusts the action bar function, Menu Schemes get adjusted, and ability mechanics change entirely. Acknowledging that they want controller support at the design level means it has to be considered likely at every step.

Something I appreciate as a "dirty console peasant".

Posted By Gunghoe at 10:24 AM - Wed Jun 07 2017

Posted By CommonlyQuixotic at 07:23 AM - Wed Jun 07 2017

I have little to no interest in combat. It's one of the reasons I have played so few MMO's over the years.

My understanding is that the current plans for combat in CoE are for there to be a high skill gap, with low "chance". I approve of this decision for two reasons:

1. This is the intention for all skills. While I don't enjoy combat, many of the other skills look much more appealing to me. For the skills I enjoy, the challenge of a complex system with a variety of difficulty levels is part of the appeal. I don't begrudge those who enjoy combat having a similarly enjoyable gameplay experience.

2. This is not a 1v1 fighting game. SbS has stated that numbers and resource management will also have a significant impact on combat. While I do intend to have some basic combat skills, I also intend to be part of an established community with access to the resources necessary to keep my character reasonably well-fed, well-rested, and well-armed. This means that someone who wants to challenge us in battle will need to consider not only their combat skills compared to ours, but also their numbers and resources compared to ours. A significant skill gap will make up for some lack of numbers and resources, but anyone relying too heavily on one skill will have other vulnerabilities to exploit.

There will be gladiatorial combat. They mentioned this on more than one occasion that there will be an important facet that WILL be one v one.

True, for gladiatorial combat player skill will likely trump all, though character skill and equipment will likely have some effect. However, those who prefer to avoid combat when possible cannot be forced into gladiatorial combat, so it wasn't particularly relevant to my argument. If I acquire some basic combat skills, manage my resources well, and practice reasonable caution, it seems likely to me that a combat system based largely on player skill will not take away much from my experience of the game (though there is no way to be certain until after launch), and will make the game a much richer experience for those who do enjoy combat. i support a combat system based on player skill.