Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 12:37 PM - Wed Jun 28 2017

Except crafters are always contributing actively to what they are doing even if they find it boring. Sitting down to draw a map after a day of adventuring isn't exactly comparable to staring at something or afk walking around the city. If guards could sit and draw as there boring job guards would be lit.

It all depends what you personally find boring. If take a smithy, comes online and see he has an order of 100 horseshoes and other orders of different things. Well he be standing there making a crap ton of stuff. Even if his OPC can make all the same stuff, well he can't fall too far behind anyway and wants to get up his skill more.

I known people that wouldn't find this boring since it's all they do in other MMOs. But how many would be fine with this?

Overall the game can't be too punishing. Or people will just have alts and let their OPC do it most of the time. Unless that's the plan here.

Come online set the OPC to different script, log onto each character doing that. Find your main and run off into the world to do something different

yes when i mentioned the spirt thing of a NPC it is because of a resent bit of info i was advised of which was the intent had changed from a 1 life npc to a random set based off some inner system..

would not have to have a pivotal NPC required for a major story chain be randomly killed in a wagon accident why crossing the road...

so lets say the matter is rather unclear till SBS confirms how it will go.

any raid on a town killing npcs will devastate it currently.. which is cool in a way but very Crushing any one else living there.

it is a point i raised in another thread months ago the concern that if NPC had one life then we could find a NPC shortage if major wars happen and NPC's get wiped out....

and i must agree that this will come across all kinds of jobs but i will disagree that those towns deeper in a safe kingdom would have less use of guards. bandits can happen anywhere not just on the boarders... u could also have a rival who is waiting for u to lower ur guard just enough to attack...

lets just say the Scull Duggery that will be happening will be insane and out of our realm of predictions.

i seen some who are starting to catch on to what this thread is about and it is good to see the discussion going in a reasonable manner :)

even if there is some random guy disliking every post i make hahahaha.

but another thing of note is the type of guard postions will also vary. some one else noted bank guards and that is somthing i was gonna mention but he did beat me there hahaha.

but there are so many more... think about the people out there who will be wanting to hire guards...

first thing that comes to ur head ofcause is those in power like mayor upwards... but there are alot of lower ranked people who will need guards...

Any one with any thing of Value they wish protected would need guards of some type. Gem shops may want to have 1 or 2 guards same with a Silver smith or gold smiths shop...

then u got the trade caravans which i touched on but i dont think any one noted the implications of dieing why offline on a trade run.... not keen to come back alive and have absolutely no clue where i am or where the trade caravan is (remember u come back to life hungry thirsty and in bad physical shape so now ur in some random location in a very bad way lol)

we also have Warehouse guards. big trade guilds will need to store there merchandise some place before they sell it after all.

guards for tax collectors and shipments.

Big rich land owners & Gentry will need guards for there villas and mansions.

we are talking about a huge industry here of boredom lol

and as i said there just wont be enough sustainable NPC's for guard duty of these sorts.

so i feel it is a good subject to discuss how to best make this job worth it.

also for my own part as a incentive i plan for my PC guards who stick with me loyally for more then 3 RL months i will offer to send them to a Ducal Military Academy to learn the higher forms of combat all expenses paid and paid leave why they study.

i always reward loyalty :)

Posted By Gunnlang at 01:13 AM - Wed Jun 28 2017

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 12:37 PM - Wed Jun 28 2017

Except crafters are always contributing actively to what they are doing even if they find it boring. Sitting down to draw a map after a day of adventuring isn't exactly comparable to staring at something or afk walking around the city. If guards could sit and draw as there boring job guards would be lit.

It all depends what you personally find boring. If take a smithy, comes online and see he has an order of 100 horseshoes and other orders of different things. Well he be standing there making a crap ton of stuff. Even if his OPC can make all the same stuff, well he can't fall too far behind anyway and wants to get up his skill more.

Yeah some people will find that boring but imo when you compare that to the number of people that think waiting for conflict to happen is boring it's not on the same scale. With crafting some people will find it boring while with guarding I can almost guarantee most will find it boring.

Even if they are boring, their is still the fact you are actively doing something that is meaningful in a way with crafting. If I craft 100 horseshoes I am constantly doing something that I can gain skill or research on that will ALSO pay me and potentially gain me notoriety compared to staring at a wall or walking up and down a road. To me those still aren't comparable. 1 is active, 1 is passive. Passive tasks are almost by definition more inclined to be boring.

A last point is that is making 100 shoes boring? or tedious? Thats the difference for me. I wouldn't call that repetition boring, it's tedious. I would rather my guarding duty be full of tedious tasks than boring ones imo.

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 12:31 AM - Thu Jun 29 2017

A last point is that is making 100 shoes boring? or tedious? Thats the difference for me. I wouldn't call that repetition boring, it's tedious. I would rather my guarding duty be full of tedious tasks than boring ones imo.

Yeah I agree with you there. At least doing something tedious is still doing something. But then anyone doing those type of jobs could always take a break and do whatever else. A guard really couldn't, they be stuck on their boring job.

Posted By Gunnlang at 7:40 PM - Wed Jun 28 2017

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 12:31 AM - Thu Jun 29 2017

A last point is that is making 100 shoes boring? or tedious? Thats the difference for me. I wouldn't call that repetition boring, it's tedious. I would rather my guarding duty be full of tedious tasks than boring ones imo.

Yeah I agree with you there. At least doing something tedious is still doing something. But then anyone doing those type of jobs could always take a break and do whatever else. A guard really couldn't, they be stuck on their boring job.

I agree and i'd like to add to the list shopkeeper, bartender...... all the jobs where most of your time you do nothing. We can also add all the tedious time we'll do nothing or not much, like traveling on road, or at sea.... given the distances and time, ocean crossing will be long and mostly boring if we do not have something to do, as will be all the things that take long time, like building a house , tending a field.... arf all the activities that will take more than a few seconds to be honest.

But if they do not have those tedious and /or boring moments then the game will feel false and things will not match, if you cut a tree in 4 seconds but take 20 min to drag it to the lumber mill that is bad!

A lot for comments since my last one, hopefully I'm not repeating anyone.

To the NPC vs PC balance: Guard towers provide the best line of sight but least activity (you just stand there reading a scroll pretending to pull guard duty... been there) is for NPCs. Roving patrols are for PCs however you design it. Also, the guard "command" (however game mechanics allow it) would be PC.

I liked the idea of scouting/roving patrols hunting/fixing road doing stuff like that. This would be a good way to earn a little if you wanted to practice those professions while helping your settlement.

If possible, put craft stations or have tools available for those PCs on duty. If you can sit on a wall/in a tower making arrows/shoes/nails while being able to look out in the distance it would help pass the time. Or studying a scroll/pulling duty with someone speaking another language you are learning; anything to entice people to pull duty.

Posted By Kelipski at 6:48 PM - Wed Jun 28 2017

A lot for comments since my last one, hopefully I'm not repeating anyone.

To the NPC vs PC balance: Guard towers provide the best line of sight but least activity (you just stand there reading a scroll pretending to pull guard duty... been there) is for NPCs. Roving patrols are for PCs however you design it. Also, the guard "command" (however game mechanics allow it) would be PC.

I liked the idea of scouting/roving patrols hunting/fixing road doing stuff like that. This would be a good way to earn a little if you wanted to practice those professions while helping your settlement.

If possible, put craft stations or have tools available for those PCs on duty. If you can sit on a wall/in a tower making arrows/shoes/nails while being able to look out in the distance it would help pass the time. Or studying a scroll/pulling duty with someone speaking another language you are learning; anything to entice people to pull duty.

Indeed, I would also like to point out some people like to just talk and learn about the game, and would want to see what the fellow community they are in is doing, as they are a highly trained guard, most likely. They would also have a bunch of time that is secluded with the trainer and others practicing their combat drills.

I don't think there would be enough time for trained warriors to also become exceptional Craftsmen or Bards. People that are wanting combat are either going to be guards, knights, sell-swords, men at arms, or some type of deviant.

To say they are just patrolling or stationing a watch tower would be unrealistic expectation, sure they might do that on occasion, I highly doubt they would be patrolling the same path, all the time, most of the time a look out is tied to everyone within the settlement and are able to report anything immediately through a discord message or in game message. You wouldn't likely have PCs actively trolling the same road or what used to be a field.

I don't foresee there ever being a position for a trained guard to just patrol a city, However there will be people offering the prices for those rare positions of importance. I highly doubt that people will be willing to pay for a guard that doesn't have an immediate benefit. This only applies to places that don't have laws pertaining arms and armor.

I guess you would have to pay guards to patrol in a city with banned arms and armor. Those rulers will quickly understand why the guard ends up having among the biggest house in comparison to the local baker.They should realize something is sorely wrong and something is a huge money sink.

Then go back to what a sensible person would do, not hire as many guards if at all, and have people responsible for their own defense, and have the players decide where to efficiently put a player guard if it is indeed needed in a specific location. Things work in this game much different from reality even today with technology, we don't have instant communication all the time. We also don't know what the baker currently is doing, unlike in this game we will know what everyone is doing at almost all times because the people that care would be on voip.

There is a lot of positions that are held in real life that wouldn't be held within this game, it wouldn't be practical or cost effective for the city to use. Guards however unlike in real life, would be more akin to a fire-fighter where they report when the need arises, Not be there prematurely, Again Unless the area is highly important and needs to have an active guard. More often than not there would only be like 2-3 locations like that within a city, store houses and other things similar to that. And people that are doing the "guard" duty wouldn't even consider it as such, because the way people view games is fundamentally different than in real life. They would just be around interacting with their community of the city they live in, Threats are a real thing, and if everything is threatened enough, the title guard would make less sense cause at that point if threats are so prevalent, everyone would be guard-like in their own nature.

it also comes to the developers if they want the game to be fun, Sure simulation has it's appeal but if they balance it in such away that conflict rarely ever happens "like real life" then well a huge majority of the player base will move on to the "NEXT WOW KILLER"

Posted By markof at 2:06 PM - Wed Jun 28 2017

Posted By Gunnlang at 7:40 PM - Wed Jun 28 2017

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 12:31 AM - Thu Jun 29 2017

A last point is that is making 100 shoes boring? or tedious? Thats the difference for me. I wouldn't call that repetition boring, it's tedious. I would rather my guarding duty be full of tedious tasks than boring ones imo.

Yeah I agree with you there. At least doing something tedious is still doing something. But then anyone doing those type of jobs could always take a break and do whatever else. A guard really couldn't, they be stuck on their boring job.

I agree and i'd like to add to the list shopkeeper, bartender...... all the jobs where most of your time you do nothing. We can also add all the tedious time we'll do nothing or not much, like traveling on road, or at sea.... given the distances and time, ocean crossing will be long and mostly boring if we do not have something to do, as will be all the things that take long time, like building a house , tending a field.... arf all the activities that will take more than a few seconds to be honest.

But if they do not have those tedious and /or boring moments then the game will feel false and things will not match, if you cut a tree in 4 seconds but take 20 min to drag it to the lumber mill that is bad!

Theres a balance that I don't think the current design is hitting. It's not like I don't want those aspects of the character it's that having them in proportion to real life is also a bad idea. I.E. if your time waiting as a guard in elyria is proportionate to the time it takes irl, your not going to have a good time. Soldier NPC and IRL can go years and years without seeing combat. Even in the direct criminal contact in law enforcement you can go your whole career without touching a weapon in the field. That is good for real life but doesn't create story, fun or engaging gameplay.

It also leads me to believe this is why in their write-ups and bounty system they aren't designing for standing forces. Alot of the tribes somehow have no standing force but also have alot of fighters. The brudvir for example specifically says it has a STRONG warrior caste but doesn't have a standing force. This in combination with the idea that ANYONE can PvP with a criminal for the bounty token tells me SBS isn't designing for guard to be a role. To me it says they are designing for the armed citizens that may be in the area to act as a militia when crime happens and stop what they are doing to fight a criminal.

While they have no guard they have warriors in the area that might help you out is the vibe I'm getting for what SBS is picturing which is also HEAVILY reliant on the fact that SBS can predict the actions of their playerbase which has failed MANY times in pre-production. Unless your a baron it just doesn't feel like SBS is encouraging soldiers/guards to me. Which means you have little control of your cities safety should that be true. It's up to this unwritten militia.

yes planing for a game where we own towns and have no guards is rather short sighted and i am sure this has come up with SBS.

they got to know that the guard position or solder seem to be the 2 highest interest roles right after bounty hunter and bandit itself for the PVP crowd.

the whole statement of no standing armies or military forces is quite fine for a race write up.... but that lasts about as long as it takes PC's to get involved and kings to change the standing organisation of the tribe.

The world starts as SBS explains it in the tribes and history... from there how the tribes are run that traits and habits well.... that my friends is entirely in our hands

so why a tribe will start with no standing army... who is to said once a king takes over they dont have a massive standing army...

the world changes based on our actions lol.

u see if we could easly get enought NPC gaurd to cover the walls it would not be a issue well it still is as those guards will die fast and replacing them will take time.

even if they do change the way npcs die to be 2 or 3 deaths before parma death it still wont be long be u have no NPC's left if u face even any minor conflict.

so no matter how i see it PC guards will be a thing no matter how u try and say it wont. eventually it would have to be.

if SBS could provide some support to allow for us to push OPC to do the wall patrols and other boring roles then it should be fine then the patrols thru the country side could be pc guards as it is more simulating of the roles and will have more people to talk to.

and yes store keepers and such waiting for sales will also be one of the more boring roles heheehe

Players have to want to be that army. As explained if it's proportionate to real life that won't be a good role. No one joins the army because it's fun or engaging while that is what a game needs to be to be successful.

been thinking on the doing somthing why on guard duty angle and been thinking of the side skills a guard may be intrested.

mainly thats gonna be weapons training of cause with lots of sparing.

but what else?

Some basic Survival Skills like tracking would be handy

Weapon maintenance is also another skill they will be wanting to work on so less trips to the blacksmith.

if they were learning bow skill (highly suggested for a wall guard) they could work on arrow making skills.

also depending on how the guarding is setup maybe we could setup some archy targets for them to pot shots at why standing watch.

the idea of becoming a blackmith or such may not doable for a guard given how much time needed to put into smiting but they could get a basic skill wether it would help or not or even be worth it is up to the player realy.

i dont see this being a solve all but i do see it as somthing we can look at to help reduce the boredom realy.

shop keepers and such have a better chance to doing these side skills then a guard so yes why they do suffer the same issues regarding awaiting a sale they are still able to craft at same time as sales most likly out of there shop which well is where they craft after all.

Posted By Varhukan at 8:02 PM - Sun Jul 02 2017

I would think pc gaurds would not be watching a gate or a wall. The town mayor would pay them to protect the town by seeking out carnisaurs!? And other dangers. Such as "i decree all pc guards get paid $$ to walk the road twice in one gaming session so that our traders have safe access to the next town." If you have pc gaurds at your disposal would you really have them watch a gate(for watching for deviants ifa band roved to the area sure) or using them to secure resources and maintaining the exterior aspects. Crime can be handled by npcs and pc gaurds can advance the settlement.

That isn't really thinking about long term at all. Paying a new guard with their own pay demand to walk a road and changing guards several times a day for ten years for EACH ROAD is ridiculous and a fine way to inefficiently spend gold.

Not to mention the still issue of finding someone who wants to walk for over an hour. Walking length between towns was estimated design for 45m.. so in your 2 way example I would need to pay someone so much gold he would sit as he keyboard and literally use the W key for 1.5 hours. Not to mention I have no way of verifying he actually did it except by following him for 1.5 hours lol.

If anything using NPCs to do walks and inspections is the MOST efficient way because NPCs are more likely to not backstab you because they are built to respect the RP of a title holder.