COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
The Dance of Dynasties and RL Concerns

So, as I sit here this morning I find myself pondering over something that I have thought of in the past, but never really spent much time on it. But I do find it curious how the game, or perhaps more specifically people and communities in the game, will be effected if the dance of dynasties plays out as described.

According to Caspian, it's very unlikely that any titled person will retain their title throughout the 10 year storyline, which sounds interesting of course, even exciting, things should shift and power should change hands and I'd be very disappointed if it doesn't. On the other hand, it brings up some issues when it comes to the real people sitting in front of their computers.

These people have taken time to create communities not just in the game but outside it. They've created websites, commissioned or created artwork and patreon accounts, social media accounts, and discords, most either under the control of a king or their trusted friends. And even at lower levels, many duchies and counties have these same sorts of creations. All of these items are, effectively, their personal and intellectual property beyond the reach of SbS...

So what happens when we take the dance of dynasties to its natural and ultimate conclusion. A kingdom, taken over either from outside forces or even worse from within. Now you have a new king, in charge of that kingdom and trying to piece together that community. How is it even possible? Assuming the old king is not cooperative with the take-over, does not relinquish control of their websites and communication portals and social media accounts. In fact they can use all those things against the new kingdom.

So what choice does anyone have? After using the game mechanics to do as the game intended and cause a shift in power through in-game means, they would now be pretty much required to completely rebrand and rename the kingdom (in fact even kingdom names would arguably be the ip of their original owner, but SbS may have terms that allow those names to persist after said king loses it), make all new content, and somehow convince everyone within the kingdom to go along with it. As if the task of just convincing someone to follow a new in-game leader isn't hard enough already... I fear this might make it impossible.

Instead, what we will see is players entrenched in their communities for out of game reasons. Some of those perfectly reasonable being that they've made friendships and the like and some of their friends just got deposed, that is a valid in-character response. But many of the other reasons would be meta at best, having to recreate the websites, content, networking, branding, even potentially lore of the duchies and counties because the kingdom is required to change would be an unbearable out of game burden on what should be a purely in-game concern.

So taken all the above as my working assumption, I see only two possible outcomes. 1- The out of game costs in time effort and money resulting from someone's in-game action will make it entirely impossible to garner support against even the most terrible ruler. If you manage to cassus belli through some other means you will immediately become the target of ire of every other member of that kingdom, mostly for out of game, meta-game reasons that are even more pressing and powerful than valid in-game roleplay reasons. And so they will immediately wage a war to remove the usurper and reinstate the original king, no matter how bad a king he might be. Thus making the promise of the game's design and any upward mobility at the highest tiers just an illusion.

The second possible outcome, is that neither the king or usurper is able to consolidate power, if not them, and nobody else has access to the aforementioned resources, content, and property out of game, then the kingdom simply vaporizes into an all-consuming civil war, I think this is far less likely as it will be bad for everyone and most likely they will go with option one, prop up the original king for stability regardless of any in-game reasons not to.

Anyway, pretty long post already, curious what others think will come of this. The out of game elements entirely uncontrollable by SbS or anyone else in particular could have a pretty chilling effect on the dance of dynasties system as a whole unless I'm missing something important...


6/27/2017 8:43:35 PM #31

Posted By Droob at 3:06 PM - Tue Jun 27 2017

But you are forgetting, just because somebody has a casus belli for a kingdom, that certainly does not include the CB to revoke the title of the vassals of the realm.

It does if they fought against the winner.


6/27/2017 8:55:25 PM #32

Posted By Kaynadin at 9:43 PM - Tue Jun 27 2017

Posted By Droob at 3:06 PM - Tue Jun 27 2017

But you are forgetting, just because somebody has a casus belli for a kingdom, that certainly does not include the CB to revoke the title of the vassals of the realm.

It does if they fought against the winner.

Oh sorry I didn't realise, where did you learn that information?


6/27/2017 9:19:00 PM #33

Maybe the kingdom gets broken up and separated into 2-3 new kingdoms. Depends on how those loyalties were arranged to side with them. What is interesting is all the possibilities of something happening. What and how this changes all the stories within that kingdom. I think we will have attempts of overthrowing kings, but will they work.

6/27/2017 9:22:23 PM #34

Posted By Droob at 3:55 PM - Tue Jun 27 2017

Oh sorry I didn't realise, where did you learn that information?

here you go, near the bottom

Siding with the loser of a coup means you're titles are at risk, so I can't imagine that means an invader is bound to the deposed king's zoning agreements.


DPBoD2.jpg

6/27/2017 9:22:35 PM #35

Posted By Droob at 4:55 PM - Tue Jun 27 2017

Posted By Kaynadin at 9:43 PM - Tue Jun 27 2017

Posted By Droob at 3:06 PM - Tue Jun 27 2017

But you are forgetting, just because somebody has a casus belli for a kingdom, that certainly does not include the CB to revoke the title of the vassals of the realm.

It does if they fought against the winner.

Oh sorry I didn't realise, where did you learn that information?

I agree if you were going against the winner you will loose everything, I would not want a traitor in my kingdom.

6/27/2017 10:33:52 PM #36

I actually think that real life concerns will probably be a major reason why there are changes in the monarchy. The position will probably end up being more time intensive than most realize. King and Queen characters will die and perhaps the players will want a difference experience after a couple years of that and will let someone else take over one of their heirs while they run off and have a new experience.


6/27/2017 10:43:36 PM #37

Posted By 1mmaculateDeception at 3:33 PM - Tue Jun 27 2017

I actually think that real life concerns will probably be a major reason why there are changes in the monarchy. The position will probably end up being more time intensive than most realize. King and Queen characters will die and perhaps the players will want a difference experience after a couple years of that and will let someone else take over one of their heirs while they run off and have a new experience.

Right, transfers of power with the cooperation of the old king('s player) makes perfect sense, that wasn't really what I was speaking about. I meant removing people from power in game who don't want to be removed from power, and who have control over all the out-of-game assets for that whole kingdom.


6/28/2017 12:58:12 AM #38

Posted By Dekul at 3:43 PM - Tue Jun 27 2017

Posted By 1mmaculateDeception at 3:33 PM - Tue Jun 27 2017

I actually think that real life concerns will probably be a major reason why there are changes in the monarchy. The position will probably end up being more time intensive than most realize. King and Queen characters will die and perhaps the players will want a difference experience after a couple years of that and will let someone else take over one of their heirs while they run off and have a new experience.

Right, transfers of power with the cooperation of the old king('s player) makes perfect sense, that wasn't really what I was speaking about. I meant removing people from power in game who don't want to be removed from power, and who have control over all the out-of-game assets for that whole kingdom.

Well, I think the pledge folks have been guaranteed that they will always hold the title that they have bought, please set me straight if I am wrong on that.

That doesn't mean that their Kingdom/Duchy/County will always be the same size OR in the same place that it is right now.

What if the first Erishe King is actually a deposed King from another Realm? There is a lot we don't know but yes I do expect that at some point we will have some harshly removed Nobles.


6/28/2017 1:14:57 AM #39

Posted By Ecir_Edyah at 11:22 PM - Tue Jun 27 2017

Posted By Droob at 3:55 PM - Tue Jun 27 2017

Oh sorry I didn't realise, where did you learn that information?

here you go, near the bottom

Siding with the loser of a coup means you're titles are at risk, so I can't imagine that means an invader is bound to the deposed king's zoning agreements.

This is true only in case of a coup where players have to take sides the way I read it though.
Invading a kingdom as a king might be different.


6/28/2017 1:46:12 AM #40

I would like to add that Players are not the only component of the world. NPCs will likely maintain some level of power even in a player dominated kingdom.

NPCs also have the advantage of being active 24/7 and being directed by the soulborn engine.

There will definitely come a time when the will of the players will be overridden by the will of the game.


6/28/2017 1:55:19 AM #41

Lets think about it this way. A kingdom is laid to ruins, over 200 players now have to swear allegiance to a new king or flee. So said new king, makes a decree, any pc character that does not leave the kingdom in three days time or swears allegiance is now able to be attacked, in addition new arrivals are ignored by this. So decree = Player with spent time in kingdom is equal or greater then one week and is currently in said kingdom is affected by said decree. Those who are loyal to the old king have three days to retake the throne. Those loyal to the new king have three days before they can start hunting the rebels.( this also allows mercenaries to be hired by both sides during the standoff three days time because if they choose the right side, the king that makes the throne can undo any bounties and such on the said mercenaries who came to help doing PVP)

I have made many maps in strategy games and I am assuming the script in this game will allow for some very serious algorithms to allow such actions to work without some random pc being affected by a war that they have nothing to do with.


When I am lost, I know I have traveled the farthest. Sayeth the guy jeff. 49F48A =FC

6/28/2017 2:04:23 AM #42

Posted By Varhukan at 9:55 PM - Tue Jun 27 2017

Lets think about it this way. A kingdom is laid to ruins, over 200 players now have to swear allegiance to a new king or flee. So said new king, makes a decree, any pc character that does not leave the kingdom in three days time or swears allegiance is now able to be attacked, in addition new arrivals are ignored by this. So decree = Player with spent time in kingdom is equal or greater then one week and is currently in said kingdom is affected by said decree. Those who are loyal to the old king have three days to retake the throne. Those loyal to the new king have three days before they can start hunting the rebels.( this also allows mercenaries to be hired by both sides during the standoff three days time because if they choose the right side, the king that makes the throne can undo any bounties and such on the said mercenaries who came to help doing PVP)

I have made many maps in strategy games and I am assuming the script in this game will allow for some very serious algorithms to allow such actions to work without some random pc being affected by a war that they have nothing to do with.

Disguises, the differences between implicit (Laws) and Explicit contracts, along with how contracts are enforced (its not automatic) will make this kind of difficult to achieve. Possible? Yes. Plausible? No.

War is kind of a calamity that effects everyone (during the fuedal era).

My two cents, and not the official stance of SBS.


6/28/2017 2:13:33 AM #43

Posted By 1mmaculateDeception at 8:58 PM - Tue Jun 27 2017

Posted By Dekul at 3:43 PM - Tue Jun 27 2017

Posted By 1mmaculateDeception at 3:33 PM - Tue Jun 27 2017

I actually think that real life concerns will probably be a major reason why there are changes in the monarchy. The position will probably end up being more time intensive than most realize. King and Queen characters will die and perhaps the players will want a difference experience after a couple years of that and will let someone else take over one of their heirs while they run off and have a new experience.

Right, transfers of power with the cooperation of the old king('s player) makes perfect sense, that wasn't really what I was speaking about. I meant removing people from power in game who don't want to be removed from power, and who have control over all the out-of-game assets for that whole kingdom.

Well, I think the pledge folks have been guaranteed that they will always hold the title that they have bought, please set me straight if I am wrong on that.

That doesn't mean that their Kingdom/Duchy/County will always be the same size OR in the same place that it is right now.

What if the first Erishe King is actually a deposed King from another Realm? There is a lot we don't know but yes I do expect that at some point we will have some harshly removed Nobles.

No, absolutely not, the opposite in fact, Caspian guaranteed that EVERYONE will eventually lose their title... heh


7/15/2017 7:15:07 PM #44

Would you follow a king that didn't have these 3rd party resources available like a discord or a website?

I mean if a casual player has risen up and achieved CB through the tribes belief on what to do in a power vacuum, would they immediately be deposed just because they weren't able to provide the out of game resources someone else would?

It would suck to lose your title because you couldn't/didn't provide those out of game resources.


UDL

7/15/2017 10:40:14 PM #45

If someone is able to gather the support and cooperation of the players needed to actually attack and win a CB than I suspect they would of had some out of game tools at their disposal already in which they organized and prepared.

One of the first things we all should check for in any would be warlords looking to take out the current ruling faction is how serious and committed they are about it. This would include their reasons, their in game ability and their long term plan such as organization during and after to bring stability back to the Realm.

If a would be king is unwilling to setup a website and discord I hope all of you know enough to stay well away from them. :)