COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
"Balancing" armor

I feel like it is a bit pretentious to assume that this has evaded the dev-team's mind, while working on combat, or more precisely armor, so if you already kept what I am going to talk about in mind for the mechanics of armor, please forgive me for assuming otherwise.


While it might be "unfun" to make metal armor, and especially plate armor realistically protective, I think making all types of armor, or combat styles equally effective is not the correct solution either ...

If someone fighting unarmored, with a knife is as dangerous as someone in a full suit of plate with a pollaxe, given that the players are equally skilled, is not desirable, especially since CoE doesn't claim to be fair in the first place. (hyperbole)

When talking about equipment it is usually brought up that in CoE will play a secondary role to player skill, but I am assuming this means that differences in quality won't be as important as they are in other games, but to hunt large game you'd still require a heavy bow, to fell a tree, you`d still need more than a hatchet, and to be considered properly equipped for combat you'd need ... yeah what exactly would you need? This is another point where I am a bit anxious to see what you guys have planned. From the way it is talked about, it seems like the correct combat attire will vary greatly from biome to biome, with everything getting it's place to shine, while realistically in the overwhelming majority of situations plate, and in almost all situations metal armor is the uncontested best thing to wear.

CoE has the unique opportunity to balance this not by adjusting the properties of armor, but over the economic effort invested in metal armor when compared to other types of protection. Losing a suit of plate armor is probably just as "unfun", if not more so than fighting against someone in actually protective armor.

People on Discord regularly discuss how wars are going to be exceedingly expensive undertakings, but if it doesn't matter what equipment my soldiers use, I can just make an army of unarmored soldiers that are trained in some unarmed combat style. (hyperbole)


Well, I hope the points I was trying to make got across, I am really looking forward to what the combat system is going to be like, and I trust in your ability to find a good path between the two extremes, after all, as much as I would like there to be realistic armor, I am but one voice of many.


The truth is born in argument

12/29/2017 4:38:50 PM #1

Based on what I've heard over the past year and a half, I believe they're going to strive to make all equipment function as close to reality as possible. Player quality will be Important because someone in Plate and using a halberd will be considerably slower than someone in leather with a dagger. Strike timing, location, and movement will play a role in who comes out on top, as well as equipment.

Also, limited resources in the world means that it's not likely everyone will be in Plate mail. And that recycling materials is going to be key. A for instance they gave was having to melt down plates and utensils in times of war to make more armor.


12/29/2017 5:08:34 PM #2

Posted By Jello at 10:38 AM - Fri Dec 29 2017

Based on what I've heard over the past year and a half, I believe they're going to strive to make all equipment function as close to reality as possible. Player quality will be Important because someone in Plate and using a halberd will be considerably slower than someone in leather with a dagger. Strike timing, location, and movement will play a role in who comes out on top, as well as equipment.

Also, limited resources in the world means that it's not likely everyone will be in Plate mail. And that recycling materials is going to be key. A for instance they gave was having to melt down plates and utensils in times of war to make more armor.

I don't think limiting speed (past a very minor point) would be realistic, but adding a stamina-drain modifier certainly would.

A guy in well-maintained plate armor might be able to do all of the same motions as someone without, but they're certainly going to get tired much more quickly, assuming they're on the same physical level.


12/29/2017 5:14:18 PM #3

Okay, so I have been out of the loop for the better part of the last year, so some of what I think on this topic may be outdated at this point. I think, different levels of armor, be it plate or some kind of leather etc, will depend on the battlefield role for sure. I also agree that there are some balancing nuances that will be required to keep things challenging and fun.

However, I think there are a few things to keep in mind in relation to plate being the king of armor. One thing to keep in mind is that I'm pretty sure (could be off on this if, feel free to correct me) is that plate won't necessarily be available to start with. While in what we are often shown of history, we see lots of knights in plate armor, this isn't necessarily true of most of the medieval period. Armor was created using mail for a long time and of course continued into the plate era, and there were armors that fit metal bands or scales together that we can see historically. Full plate was a late, and rather expensive, invention (circa 1400's), and I think it may be similar in CoE. We know that there will be a level of technological advancements throughout the course of CoE, and this is one that I would like to see. Though I will admit I don't know what level of technology the jousting video is supposed to equate to, since we do see the knights wearing plate armor.

Another thing to keep in mind is that plate has its uses, but it also has times where it may be a detriment. Plate makes a person slow, and as someone who is learning HEMA, and knows a lot of people who do ACL (Historic European Martial Arts, and Armored Combat League respectively), there are times where being the unarmored combatant is distinctly advantageous. The freedom of movement allowed by a lack of armor allows for a lot more agility, and some people would argue power, into each strike. I will admit, being unarmored and getting punched by someone with plate does hurt a lot though.

The final factor I think is important to consider is that there will be regional variations. Plate is hot, and people who live in the jungle or the desert may not develop a full suit of metal armor because of the fatigue it may impart upon the wearer. Plus, if you live in a jungle, and therefore plan to fight in a jungle, the restriction of movement may create a problem, thereby causing a civilization to avoid the overt use of plate armors. This last point may be more of a reason we will see different techs in different places than it is a balance thing, but I thought I would throw it out there regardless.

I know I keyed in on one point of what was in your post, and I hope I didn't diverge too much from being relevant. i just thought I would throw in my two cents about the topic cough please make plate something that has to be researched cough. And I hope not having been on the forums too much in the last year hasn't made my ideas irrelevant haha.


12/29/2017 5:21:45 PM #4

If I thought about big battles in war (100+ vs. 100+) I got an idea.

To be realistic ... without "any" AOE effects the normal combat style is too chaotic. Just imagine a big battle in "Dark Souls" combat style. I love this... but for mass PvP this would be horrible.

So...how would it be if it starts like a X amount of 1 vs 1. If one wins this he can decide to join nearby fights. Probably he could choose between 3 Options:

  • Heal (help) a friend located on the ground so he can join again.
  • join another fight to Support
  • throw sth.
  • other

So this is ofcourse not an free move style. I know most People hate my idea. But this can drop PC requirements. Chaos and can be fun too. More descisions.

Maybe we Need phases in this wars to Change tactic coordinated.

Just a thought.


Alt text - can be left blank

12/29/2017 5:22:38 PM #5

Posted By Scheneighnay at 09:08 AM - Fri Dec 29 2017

Posted By Jello at 10:38 AM - Fri Dec 29 2017

Based on what I've heard over the past year and a half, I believe they're going to strive to make all equipment function as close to reality as possible. Player quality will be Important because someone in Plate and using a halberd will be considerably slower than someone in leather with a dagger. Strike timing, location, and movement will play a role in who comes out on top, as well as equipment.

Also, limited resources in the world means that it's not likely everyone will be in Plate mail. And that recycling materials is going to be key. A for instance they gave was having to melt down plates and utensils in times of war to make more armor.

I don't think limiting speed (past a very minor point) would be realistic, but adding a stamina-drain modifier certainly would.

A guy in well-maintained plate armor might be able to do all of the same motions as someone without, but they're certainly going to get tired much more quickly, assuming they're on the same physical level.

Fair enough. I've never worn armor, but I would assume that running out of steam faster would have an effect on speed through the course of a fight. Providing, of course, the guy in Leather didn't get gutted before he was close enough to make it a contest.

Also to consider about weaponry is the time it would take to swing, and reach. I would imagine an 8' pole would be more unwieldy than a dagger at close quarters. It may be just a second, but it could be just enough to make a difference.

I'm not saying at all that they would be on equal footing. Just playing a little devil's advocate, i suppose. Obviously, technology will improve the way things function. If they aren't from the start, I imagine armors will get lighter and more flexible and still maintain coverage.


12/29/2017 6:05:34 PM #6

Finite resources means that armors can function realistically. All the balancing is on the economic side, i.e. how is the iron ore distributed throughout the game world, how much is required for a suit of plate armor, etc.


12/29/2017 7:27:59 PM #7

I'd consider it unrealistic if cloth could deflect more blows than plate armor because of some stat attached to it. That would annoy me and I think it would annoy a lot of other people also. But, if we take race into consideration, then a Brudvir wearing cloth would be more likely to take a sword hit and laugh it off compared to a Kypiq. I'm also hoping that Armor layering will be a possibility in the game, so if someone gets their hands on plate they can hide it under a light leather hauberk, tricking any possible adversary into a false sense of security.

Posted By Jello at 12:38 AM - Sat Dec 30 2017

Based on what I've heard over the past year and a half, I believe they're going to strive to make all equipment function as close to reality as possible. Player quality will be Important because someone in Plate and using a halberd will be considerably slower than someone in leather with a dagger. Strike timing, location, and movement will play a role in who comes out on top, as well as equipment.

Also, limited resources in the world means that it's not likely everyone will be in Plate mail. And that recycling materials is going to be key. A for instance they gave was having to melt down plates and utensils in times of war to make more armor.

If the combat follows along a realistic route, an extremely good player could kill anyone no matter their armor with a dagger. I remember in War of the Roses that you could stab full-helm users in their eye slits and kill them. The fact that after massive battles the winning side will have to pick the dead clean like vultures for their equipment is an extra realistic touch that I cant wait to see play out.

Posted By c0lalight at 01:21 AM - Sat Dec 30 2017

Just imagine a big battle in "Dark Souls" combat style. I love this... but for mass PvP this would be horrible.

Look towards games such as Mount & Blade for a proper understanding of what I believe the massive battles will turn into. Dark Souls isn't a game I think anyone would compare to this, they're too far apart.


12/29/2017 7:41:37 PM #8

For me.... just don't give any hits a clarification on damage.

Dont tell us how many defense a armor got. Also don't let a sword hit X amount.

Learning by doing.... everytime you give a clear hint on DMG and ARMOR there will be the "best" --- and this ruins mmos.

Just dont give Players any Chance or Information to calculate with! Keep it seecret


Alt text - can be left blank

12/29/2017 8:18:55 PM #9

Posted By c0lalight at 11:41 AM - Fri Dec 29 2017

For me.... just don't give any hits a clarification on damage.

Dont tell us how many defense a armor got. Also don't let a sword hit X amount.

Learning by doing.... everytime you give a clear hint on DMG and ARMOR there will be the "best" --- and this ruins mmos.

Just dont give Players any Chance or Information to calculate with! Keep it seecret

I feel like there should be some sort of appraisal involved. Sure, it can be skewed by lack of experience. But realistically a craftsman or career warrior would know the quality of an item by looking at it and using it. I could see not giving numbers, instead using descriptors. To not have ANY information on it wouldn't make sense.


12/29/2017 11:31:02 PM #10

Posted By Jello at 11:22 AM - Fri Dec 29 2017

Posted By Scheneighnay at 09:08 AM - Fri Dec 29 2017

Posted By Jello at 10:38 AM - Fri Dec 29 2017

Based on what I've heard over the past year and a half, I believe they're going to strive to make all equipment function as close to reality as possible. Player quality will be Important because someone in Plate and using a halberd will be considerably slower than someone in leather with a dagger. Strike timing, location, and movement will play a role in who comes out on top, as well as equipment.

Also, limited resources in the world means that it's not likely everyone will be in Plate mail. And that recycling materials is going to be key. A for instance they gave was having to melt down plates and utensils in times of war to make more armor.

I don't think limiting speed (past a very minor point) would be realistic, but adding a stamina-drain modifier certainly would.

A guy in well-maintained plate armor might be able to do all of the same motions as someone without, but they're certainly going to get tired much more quickly, assuming they're on the same physical level.

Fair enough. I've never worn armor, but I would assume that running out of steam faster would have an effect on speed through the course of a fight. Providing, of course, the guy in Leather didn't get gutted before he was close enough to make it a contest.

Also to consider about weaponry is the time it would take to swing, and reach. I would imagine an 8' pole would be more unwieldy than a dagger at close quarters. It may be just a second, but it could be just enough to make a difference.

I'm not saying at all that they would be on equal footing. Just playing a little devil's advocate, i suppose. Obviously, technology will improve the way things function. If they aren't from the start, I imagine armors will get lighter and more flexible and still maintain coverage.

Yeah, hopefully speed is tied to stamina so that you gradually slow down as you lose stamina, rather than every other game where you go from 100% to exhausted with no in-between.


12/29/2017 11:35:15 PM #11

Posted By Morne at 1:27 PM - Fri Dec 29 2017

I'd consider it unrealistic if cloth could deflect more blows than plate armor because of some stat attached to it. That would annoy me and I think it would annoy a lot of other people also. But, if we take race into consideration, then a Brudvir wearing cloth would be more likely to take a sword hit and laugh it off compared to a Kypiq. I'm also hoping that Armor layering will be a possibility in the game, so if someone gets their hands on plate they can hide it under a light leather hauberk, tricking any possible adversary into a false sense of security.

Posted By Jello at 12:38 AM - Sat Dec 30 2017

Based on what I've heard over the past year and a half, I believe they're going to strive to make all equipment function as close to reality as possible. Player quality will be Important because someone in Plate and using a halberd will be considerably slower than someone in leather with a dagger. Strike timing, location, and movement will play a role in who comes out on top, as well as equipment.

Also, limited resources in the world means that it's not likely everyone will be in Plate mail. And that recycling materials is going to be key. A for instance they gave was having to melt down plates and utensils in times of war to make more armor.

If the combat follows along a realistic route, an extremely good player could kill anyone no matter their armor with a dagger. I remember in War of the Roses that you could stab full-helm users in their eye slits and kill them. The fact that after massive battles the winning side will have to pick the dead clean like vultures for their equipment is an extra realistic touch that I cant wait to see play out.

Posted By c0lalight at 01:21 AM - Sat Dec 30 2017

Just imagine a big battle in "Dark Souls" combat style. I love this... but for mass PvP this would be horrible.

Look towards games such as Mount & Blade for a proper understanding of what I believe the massive battles will turn into. Dark Souls isn't a game I think anyone would compare to this, they're too far apart.

Armor-layering is confirmed.

Speaking of daggers, it is a good point to bring up that realistically, daggers aren't somehow weak because they're small. They're a poor choice for a main battlefield weapon because of their short reach, but they're certainly an effective sidearm because you don't need much room to use them.

If grappling is added, a dagger would certainly be a very good weapon to use in a grapple.


12/30/2017 12:10:58 AM #12

Daggers are a hella valid weapon in armored fighting, especially the rondel's.

This year's WMAW had this fighter quickly pushed the opponents spear to the side and closed the gap with a quick draw dagger.


12/30/2017 12:29:16 AM #13

Posted By Scheneighnay at 07:35 AM - Sat Dec 30 2017

Posted By Morne at 1:27 PM - Fri Dec 29 2017

I'd consider it unrealistic if cloth could deflect more blows than plate armor because of some stat attached to it. That would annoy me and I think it would annoy a lot of other people also. But, if we take race into consideration, then a Brudvir wearing cloth would be more likely to take a sword hit and laugh it off compared to a Kypiq. I'm also hoping that Armor layering will be a possibility in the game, so if someone gets their hands on plate they can hide it under a light leather hauberk, tricking any possible adversary into a false sense of security.

Posted By Jello at 12:38 AM - Sat Dec 30 2017

Based on what I've heard over the past year and a half, I believe they're going to strive to make all equipment function as close to reality as possible. Player quality will be Important because someone in Plate and using a halberd will be considerably slower than someone in leather with a dagger. Strike timing, location, and movement will play a role in who comes out on top, as well as equipment.

Also, limited resources in the world means that it's not likely everyone will be in Plate mail. And that recycling materials is going to be key. A for instance they gave was having to melt down plates and utensils in times of war to make more armor.

If the combat follows along a realistic route, an extremely good player could kill anyone no matter their armor with a dagger. I remember in War of the Roses that you could stab full-helm users in their eye slits and kill them. The fact that after massive battles the winning side will have to pick the dead clean like vultures for their equipment is an extra realistic touch that I cant wait to see play out.

Posted By c0lalight at 01:21 AM - Sat Dec 30 2017

Just imagine a big battle in "Dark Souls" combat style. I love this... but for mass PvP this would be horrible.

Look towards games such as Mount & Blade for a proper understanding of what I believe the massive battles will turn into. Dark Souls isn't a game I think anyone would compare to this, they're too far apart.

Armor-layering is confirmed.

Speaking of daggers, it is a good point to bring up that realistically, daggers aren't somehow weak because they're small. They're a poor choice for a main battlefield weapon because of their short reach, but they're certainly an effective sidearm because you don't need much room to use them.

If grappling is added, a dagger would certainly be a very good weapon to use in a grapple.

I'm happy layering is confirmed, I thought it was due to a tailoring thread I read a while ago but glad for the confirmation. And grappling would be interesting, especially due to height differences in the races. Maybe the Kypiq would have to hold onto a taller persons shoulder then proceed to attack them, etc.


1/2/2018 12:32:50 AM #14

Posted By Jello at 08:38 AM - Fri Dec 29 2017

Also, limited resources in the world means that it's not likely everyone will be in Plate mail. And that recycling materials is going to be key. A for instance they gave was having to melt down plates and utensils in times of war to make more armor.

Melting down dinner plates to make armor is not realistic, unless your plates are made of steel for some reason. Pewter won't make good armor.

Now, there were plenty of cultures with highly advanced weapons (for the time) who never fielded European plate armor. There are a lot of interesting theories about why that was so, but certainly resource availability and attitude towards industry and innovation played their roles. Leather, or course, but also bone, shell, and even laminated paper were used in other areas that didn't use plate. Likewise, chainmail was a Celtic invention adopted by Rome and not much used outside Europe.

1/12/2018 5:51:21 PM #15

May be a little off topic for this thread, but it is armor based. Has there been any information on bonuses for armor sets or custom made armor? For example, if you mix and match different styles they would provide the afforded protection, but an entire set of one type would be built with consideration of fitting together with the same type and provide a small bonus of wearing a complete set of one type. The other concept is custom armor made soecifically for the player giving a small bonus. A good analogy would be buying a suit off the rack compared to a custom tailored suit. If it was made with your exact proportions it’s going to be of a better quality.