No to cages for deviants

If you can't deter deviants from working in your areas without putting them in time-out then you aren't doing it right

As many have mentioned in this thread, putting players in boxes (even "IF" they can "TRY" to escape, and that's a big IF) it will result in losing player base, as most people will quit

And what of the innocent player who is framed getting boxed up, where is the justice there? Is that in itself not griefing?

There should be NO jail system imho

That's why we have virtual jail. All the spirit and stat loss, none of the waiting around.

Posted By Kaynadin at 11:28 AM - Sat Mar 17 2018

That's why we have virtual jail. All the spirit and stat loss, none of the waiting around.

Precisely!

One thing to note is that while so many people fear deviants, they are literally one of CoE's reasons that the pre-game shop for seeding isn't p2w according to their phrase. "Anything can be lost, destroyed or stolen". The last 2 most likely occurring from deviants. So theoretically, the harder you make it for deviants the more powerful the pre-game shop items become as 2 of the 3 conditions for losing bought items are deleted essentially.

Instead of fearing what a minority of deviants (trolls) will do, it may be more productive to see what the majority of deviant play style does for the game. It reminds me how in WoW everyone thinks rogues spend their time ganking people in the world when most rogues actually use their stealth to avoid world PvP. People take annoying minorities and generalize it on the entire archetype for some reason.

Personally I felt that banishing hard criminals from cities along with other punishments would be an effective deterrent in a game where you can't log off and simply vanish.

Additionally I think if you kill someone other then a war target and cause a lost of life time that you should lose half of the life time that you cost them even before you get caught, simply have the taint of such an evil act effect your life span.

in this way you suffer at least half as much as the poor person you killed, and likely just as much if you get caught. Leaves room for crime but ensures that there will be a price even if you get away with it.

Kill enough people and then you will have to make up stories of why you seam to be getting old at such a high rate

Posted By RobertOrr at

I know majority of people are against me on this but with regards to crime I'd like to know why people think shaming trolls into being good players is a good idea, I've always been a fan of the jail idea and holding people in cages and jail cells, if your a troll and murdered joe the farmers family down the road and I catch you I'd like to imprison that person for a set time instead of just taking away a part of their soul, I understand, not allowing them into villages and towns, shaming them, but I don't see how they are going to learn from this punishment, in regards to them having to re buy a soul, so what? Most trolls are vindictive and won't stop their shaniighans some of them go as far as buying hard ware to DDoS people or servers. Solution? Prison time!! Jail time!! Working in a labour camp, sure give them the ability they can escape, but overall you're wanted if you do....if a troll salted my farm land and murdered my civilians I'd like to think if I killed them they are severely punished with that where as they lose half of their soul. Call me crazy but play stupid games win stupid prizes, as for people who wish to be criminals all the power to you, but with great treasure and reward comes great risk, little wrist slaps are silly. Also for my barony and my soldiers under me were all on board on the idea if we die in battle then what happens happens. Criminals should accept the same fate, weaselling around about punishment already before the game even come s out.

Shaming people has never worked in video game history, actually had a good laugh reading up on the plans for trolls.

I agree, just treat them as nothing special, according to thier crimes ingame via ingame mechanics. No need to get unhealthy and fuel the trolling by encouraging it with metagaming tactics, just treat them like everyone else. If they do a crime, make them pay. Simple.

Apologies if these potential solutions have been stated before, I tried searching and I only came up with debates about the pros and cons of prison. I feel, as do many, that a prison system isn’t going to work for many reasons, so I thought of a couple of solutions that may solve some of the worries surrounding crime and its consequences.

Problem: Corpse camping or permanent incapacitation

I think the current solution is to respawn a certain distance away, but this would still be in the vicinity and could lead to multiple deaths.

I think a nicer solution could be countered by giving a revive option that allows for returning to the corpse or a friendly nearby graveyard, both would still be accessed via spirit walk. Graveyards could be town features and a preferred graveyard could be set by players. This allows for a get out if people are being camped at the expense of losing their equipment. If permanent incapacitation is possible then players should have the option of suicide to activate the death system. If there is the possibility of abuse of this system for fast travel then limitations on distance could be implemented or closest friendly graveyard is automatically selected, an additional sickness debuff could also be included. I think this solution also helps players who find themselves lost in the wilds, the punishment of equipment and spirit loss is more than enough to trade to be guided back home.

Problem: Banditry

The wilds are not safe and banditry should be a viable profession however it should not be easy.

I think the solution here is for settlements to be able to blacklist entry to players who are known criminals to their town. A blacklist option could be a feature of walls and gates, it could be linked to the npc knowledge system with a list of names of known criminals selectable, wanted posters could be automatically generated from this system. This would also allow preemptive blacklisting, if a bandit gains notoriety for acts in a nearby town the npc’s in your town may hear about it and their name becomes selectable.

Someone who is blacklisted would be unable to gain entry to a walled town through the gate and be unable to gain benefit from the tavern or other areas providing positive effects.

A blacklisted character could still gain entry by destroying the gates, climbing or disguise but each method should require some skill.

By being able to limit places for the bandits to resupply, sell stolen goods or find a good place to rest it means that to be a good bandit would require organisation and a proper base, this in turn means it is much like fighting another town rather than someone who is benefiting from your community whilst simultaneously acting against you from within.

Problem: Destroying Buildings

If buildings can be destroyed by someone with a sword there will be problems. If buildings can only be destroyed with siege equipment, then that means more organisation is required to move the equipment in and keep it safe from attack. This lessons the likelihood of people destroying buildings for fun and little in game benefit.

Problem: Destroying Crops

Farms are likely to be outside town walls so are going to be the softest targets for people mindlessly destroying other peoples property.

Destroying crops should be similar in method as harvesting crops. Farmers should be able to list people who can harvest and other players doing so would be stealing and treated as such. It should be possible for bandit groups to steal crops with the right organisation if they get flagged as thieves and the towns can ban them after doing so.

These solutions should make it difficult (but not impossible) for people to be bandits but it would ensure those people doing this are organised and working as much as those building settlements and running businesses.

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 03:10 AM - Sun Mar 18 2018

One thing to note is that while so many people fear deviants, they are literally one of CoE's reasons that the pre-game shop for seeding isn't p2w according to their phrase. "Anything can be lost, destroyed or stolen". The last 2 most likely occurring from deviants. So theoretically, the harder you make it for deviants the more powerful the pre-game shop items become as 2 of the 3 conditions for losing bought items are deleted essentially.

Instead of fearing what a minority of deviants (trolls) will do, it may be more productive to see what the majority of deviant play style does for the game. It reminds me how in WoW everyone thinks rogues spend their time ganking people in the world when most rogues actually use their stealth to avoid world PvP. People take annoying minorities and generalize it on the entire archetype for some reason.

Though everything you said is true, people want to hold their power as long as possible. If that means punishing anyone that does any crime, clearly from the replies in this thread. People want to do just that. Yet it's not about keeping it fair or making it so trolls can't troll people. It's all about giving themselves a higher chance.

If people just accepted they will lose their items/property etc at some point and then figure out how they will handle it. Over going to extremes like the quote before, that be great.

Posted By Ilhar at 03:20 AM - Sun Mar 18 2018

Additionally I think if you kill someone other then a war target and cause a lost of life time that you should lose half of the life time that you cost them even before you get caught, simply have the taint of such an evil act effect your life span.

Let's just break the game cause you wanna feel safer. Just take any challenge out of trying to catch the guy.. cause why? From your example, he isn't breaking any game rules. But you wanna punish a person that does this crime twice. Wanna turn the game into some pve land? Could just play those type of games and save yourself some time you know.

Let's just break the game cause you wanna feel safer. Just take any challenge out of trying to catch the guy.. cause why? From your example, he isn't breaking any game rules. But you wanna punish a person that does this crime twice. Wanna turn the game into some pve land? Could just play those type of games and save yourself some time you know.

Have you even been following the devs? they have stated that you will lose spirit when you kill someone, this isn't a game where killing someone costs them there stuff this is a game where killing someone cost them out of game cash in the form of shortening there life, so yea I would rather not lose my stuff, have to restart my char, and have to pay more cash. just so some little shit decided he wanted to go around and kill people.

Given that when a player is killed (and I am talking killed where you lose game time not knocked out) then it is completely fair that the killed loses half the time I lose.

This would count for murders, if your just robbing someone you can knock them out and rob them.

You can pvp just fine without murdering, you can knock them out, not really much gain from looting more then the few coins they have on them anyhow.

I mean seriously there is arena fights, there are wars, then you can have banditry and knock the target out but not kill them. Since only the intentional act of murdering them after they are defeated causes spirit loss thats not PVP thats just being particularly spiteful and yea I feel if you choose to do so you should do so knowing it is going to cost you half as much as it costs them

Devs have more or less stated a similar mechanic, if it makes it to game we will see. PVP in COE is intended to be mainly during the wars and largely non fighting form of PVP, Politics, and influencing the NPC and such

This has never at any point been claimed to be some massive pvp heavy game and Caspian many times has stated that COE will have mechanics against illegal murder and such.

That all said trolls will troll regardless of any mechanics in place, there going to do there best to harass others because these type of players enjoy causing displeasure and misery to others. a lot of trolls will even go to extreme lengths to destroy the fun of others.

So I know well that these people will be there, I personally see nothing wrong with these people losing half as much as they cost others. Least then I know they are suffering at least a little.

""In this week’s design journal we’re going to talk about how CoE discourages actual killing, the different meanings of the word “death,” and the different loot rules associated with unconscious or dead characters.""

""Incapacitation in CoE is the most common form of what other games would call “killing.” Incapacitation happens during any combat or event in which a person’s health is dropped to zero. This renders the character unconscious for a short period of time. While unconscious, the incapacitated person's screen goes black and they'll see a little timer telling them how much longer before they regain consciousness.""

""It’s also important to note that incapacitating someone, unless legally done, is still a crime""

""The second form of "death" which we'll talk about during this article is Spirit Walking. Spirit Walking is what happens when someone takes the initiative to first incapacitate you, and then while you're unconscious, performs a coup de grace. A coup de grace is a killing stroke which results in your soul being forced out of your body in a process we call Spirit Walking. It’s also highly illegal and comes with severe punishment. In general, most beasts and NPCs will simply incapacitate you, however especially evil humans or creatures may aim to kill.""

"Toll Caps. Toll caps are limits on the amount of death toll you can pay in a specific period of time. "

Will edit when I find it, but somewhere it was stated that killing someone would come with it spirit loss

Edit: I can't find the reference perhaps someone else knows it, I think it might have been in a video, or I might have missed it in one of the blogs. But it was mentioned at one point, if it remains who knows but spirit loss for killing others was mentioned, they where talking about battlefields I believe in the same blog/video

Posted By Ilhar at 11:28 AM - Sun Mar 18 2018

"Toll Caps. Toll caps are limits on the amount of death toll you can pay in a specific period of time. "

Will edit when I find it, but somewhere it was stated that killing someone would come with it spirit loss

Not quite right. You only lose spirit for murders when caught. It’s not instant.

When someone dies, there is a 2.5-hour lock on their spirit loss, so players can only lose two days of play-time per 2.5 hours. However, there is no cap on spirit loss for committing crimes. So if one player kills another three times in a row within 2.5 hour period, and is caught, they will suffer for a minimum six days of spirit loss, despite the victim serving only two.

Source

Posted By Ilhar at 02:49 AM - Mon Mar 19 2018

Have you even been following the devs? they have stated that you will lose spirit when you kill someone, this isn't a game where killing someone costs them there stuff this is a game where killing someone cost them out of game cash in the form of shortening there life, so yea I would rather not lose my stuff, have to restart my char, and have to pay more cash. just so some little shit decided he wanted to go around and kill people.

Given that when a player is killed (and I am talking killed where you lose game time not knocked out) then it is completely fair that the killed loses half the time I lose.

This would count for murders, if your just robbing someone you can knock them out and rob them.

Malais has cleared that up not to be true. It's fair enough when those murderers have been caught to be punished, but not beforehand. Which if you go with that line of thinking, why only murderers? You can do just as much damage to people without killing them.

I'm not understanding where resetting your character is coming from. You would have to be killed a ton to even more into your heir. Unless you are starting as a noble, but even then, you would be protecting yourself so random murderers can't kill you so easily. Or profession assassins are going to rip you apart.

I mean seriously there is arena fights, there are wars, then you can have banditry and knock the target out but not kill them. Since only the intentional act of murdering them after they are defeated causes spirit loss thats not PVP thats just being particularly spiteful and yea I feel if you choose to do so you should do so knowing it is going to cost you half as much as it costs them

Devs have more or less stated a similar mechanic, if it makes it to game we will see. PVP in COE is intended to be mainly during the wars and largely non fighting form of PVP, Politics, and influencing the NPC and such

Yes there are all those other activities. But some people don't like basically setup events. Plus are you saying in war people won't be killing each other? Or is that somehow different in your mind cause you think every war is going to be fair? Cause really I doubt that would ever be the case.

This has never at any point been claimed to be some massive pvp heavy game and Caspian many times has stated that COE will have mechanics against illegal murder and such.

That all said trolls will troll regardless of any mechanics in place, there going to do there best to harass others because these type of players enjoy causing displeasure and misery to others. a lot of trolls will even go to extreme lengths to destroy the fun of others.

So I know well that these people will be there, I personally see nothing wrong with these people losing half as much as they cost others. Least then I know they are suffering at least a little.

I never said anything about this game only being pvp. If I wanted to make an example, I say it's like civ games. There are many different ways to play or win. War being one of them, you can play completely peaceful and never attack anyone. Of course that doesn't stop anyone from attacking you. If you are rich and fat, expanding across most of the map. But very weak, well people will attack you.

Much like in CoE. If you are some trader, moving whatever goods and don't bother hiring enough guards. Well bandits will attack you and kill you. Why kill? Cause they can, but maybe they want as much time to take as much loot as possible.

You can't just add in some very punishing mechanic, cause you don't like the pvp part. Any deviants are going to have a hard enough time in the first place. People seem to be forgetting this fact or just not even caring about it. Somehow people think random murderers are going to be running free and doing whatever the hell they want. When really only the good ones will be, the ones that put hours into their craft.

Just the point people keep calling murderers trolls is really the biggest problem. Deviants are not trolls. Just think of a civ game where you are always at peace and can't war/attack anyone. It makes every other gameplay so much easier. It be the same here if people do their best to scare away any type of deviant player.

There is a focus on preventing attacks and punishing killers because without sufficient punishment the other play styles become irrelevant. It becomes like a civ game where there is one dominant strategy and it is the early game rush. All other styles fall to the early rush so the game gets simplified down to who can build the most bowmen the most efficiently.

Posted By Kaynadin at 12:15 AM - Tue Mar 20 2018

There is a focus on preventing attacks and punishing killers because without sufficient punishment the other play styles become irrelevant. It becomes like a civ game where there is one dominant strategy and it is the early game rush. All other styles fall to the early rush so the game gets simplified down to who can build the most bowmen the most efficiently.

But why do people think that what we have at the moment isn't enough to stop deviant characters? People in general seemed so worried that crime is going to be out of control. Which I could really only see if there was setup groups doing this. In counties out of the way, lacking players to really stop them. (Having no real idea how good NPCs will be).

If we get into alpha/beta and see this really is the case, then sure, change away. But trying to rewrite the laws before we have even had any chance to test anything. Falls back to my point before, making it too punishing will just destroy that play style.

Side note, I must be playing civ wrong. Doing early rush of bowmen doesn't get me anywhere quickly.