COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
Possibility of Free Cities/City States

Let's say I start off as a Brudvir Carpenter. As I continue to refine my craft and fill my coffers, I hire my own lumberjacks and more carpenters. Soon, I realize that it would be better to have a sawmill closer to the source of the material, and I buy a plot of land from my count deep in the forest, clear the area and build an outpost for processing wood (because you can build anywhere), because of the location of my outpost I then hire guards to protect my property and employees. As my operations grow more and more people start to settle around my outpost and soon, the outpost becomes a defacto settlement. The number of guards has now grown to the size of a small army. At this point, I decide I no longer want to pay taxes to the count, duke or king. If I am able to defend my holdings would I be able to be break free from the rule of the count, duke and king and simply be a free city?


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5/10/2018 4:19:01 PM #1

Do you believe 1 City of Lumberjacks can withstand 12 Duchy's worth of armies? You're one city in one county. There are 24 counties in a duchy, each with settlements, some with similarly large cities. You're already outnumbered in your own duchy. Now multiply that by 12. Combine that with the fact that the Dukes and the King are all receiving tax money to pay for professional soldiers and equipment, while you're chopping wood.

Good luck.

Now let's say you try the diplomatic approach. Consider this- if the King himself were to award you autonomy, how many other cities would also petition for the honor? Now the King is facing a tremendous challenge of maintaining the unity of the realm. Therefore, it is only in exceptionally rare circumstances that any city would become an independent state.

On top of that, would you need the Story Points and the Influence to maintain the title? It's basically a kingdom of 1 town, trying to negotiate at the same table as the full kingdoms themselves.


NA-W "Angelica"

5/10/2018 4:22:16 PM #2

True. Just the beginning of an idea. So let's just start with a county then. What would be the possibility of being a settlement with no count and only a duke?


5/10/2018 4:23:49 PM #3

Posted By Mr.Laübrends at

Let's say I start off as a Brudvir Carpenter. As I continue to refine my craft and fill my coffers, I hire my own lumberjacks and more carpenters. Soon, I realize that it would be better to have a sawmill closer to the source of the material, and I buy a plot of land from my count deep in the forest, clear the area and build an outpost for processing wood (because you can build anywhere), because of the location of my outpost I then hire guards to protect my property and employees. As my operations grow more and more people start to settle around my outpost and soon, the outpost becomes a defacto settlement. The number of guards has now grown to the size of a small army. At this point, I decide I no longer want to pay taxes to the count, duke or king. If I am able to defend my holdings would I be able to be break free from the rule of the count, duke and king and simply be a free city?

You wouldn't stand a chance. The Count wouldn't allow it and the Duke wouldn't allow it and the Duke commands entire armies via his Baronies not to mention the Monarch of the entire Kingdom wouldn't be best pleased since part of that tax makes it's way up to them. Fact is if they let you do that, then everyone would get the idea to not pay tax and do their own thing and unfortunately like the real world it's not going to be acceptable and don't forget you're practically going to be living in a feudal society, so you would be crushed fairly quickly and made an example of.

True. Just the beginning of an idea. So let's just start with a county then. What would be the possibility of being a settlement with no count and only a duke?

There's no such thing as no count. There will always be dukes and counts even if they're NPC and the NPC's will probably be even less pleased at tax avoidance and rebellion.


5/10/2018 4:24:46 PM #4

Fyi your Duke is also a Count.


Friend Code: CB1D33

5/10/2018 4:26:34 PM #5

The odds that your potential enemies will sooner or later have bigger fish to fry are statistically high. Prepare for an independence war and declare it when the threatening parties are otherwise indisposed. So yes, if you can maintain it you can in theory gain complete independence.


5/10/2018 4:28:53 PM #6

Posted By Barleyman at 10:26 AM - Thu May 10 2018

The odds that your potential enemies will sooner or later have bigger fish to fry are statistically high. Prepare for an independence war and declare it when the threatening parties are otherwise indisposed. So yes, if you can maintain it you can gain complete independence.

I was going to say this earlier, until I realized the would-be City State might require the same Story Points and Influence as a full-blown king. In other words, they would need tremendous involvement, as well as support of a foreign power, in addition to both the manpower and the coin to enable it all. At that point they're probably more eligible to be a Duke than a measly Lord-Mayor.


NA-W "Angelica"

5/10/2018 4:34:03 PM #7

Alright. So what's stopping me from signing a contract with my Duke to bypass my Count and pay taxes directly to them? From my understanding contracts don't have to public. So if I create enough of a value proposition then there is no reason for my Duke to not take more money from me. Not to mention, at this level of success, the volume of production of a resource that is important to the growth of the region would be a very large chunk of the economy. Especially in the Alpine forests where stone is only attainable through trade with the Hrothi. So there is more than a monetary proposal to be made. As Regnion mentioned there are approximately 24 counties in a duchy, so even if my Count doesn't like it, so long as it's worth enough to the Duke, there's nothing the Count would be able to do against 23 other counties.


5/10/2018 4:34:29 PM #8

Yeah as a Count I just don't see me allowing you to get away with not paying any taxes no matter what the size of your army. At the very least I would starve your ass out. Ok, now you got your lumberjack, saw mill, carpentry kingdom all set up. Who exactly do you plan to sell your products to when I won't allow any one to buy from you or at the very least rob/ confiscate every shipment into and out of your little kingdom?

Any one who did manage to buy anything from you would pay a heavy punishment from me. You would need other supplies your little kingdom can't provide. How exactly do you plan to get them delivered when I have an embargo on your kingdom? Not to mention imagine the Duke allowing you to get away with that. If he did soon others would be doing it as well.

Why would the Duke let you bypass his count when it's the counts job to collect the taxes for him? So if I am reading this right,

"if I create enough of a value proposition then there is no reason for my Duke to not take more money from me.

So your saying you would rather pay the Duke more money than you would the Count just to by pass paying the count? Why?


5/10/2018 4:35:50 PM #9

As far as story points to maintain the title, you don't need the title of king. You're still a Baron or a Count, just an independent one. That is a thing which happened. Would you sit at the same negotiating table with kings? Maybe not, but maybe you would, it depends on how many allies you have and just how powerful your city has become.


5/10/2018 4:36:16 PM #10

Posted By Lira at 12:24 PM - Thu May 10 2018

Fyi your Duke is also a Count.

Yes, but not necessarily my Count.


5/10/2018 4:38:41 PM #11

Posted By Mr.Laübrends at 5:34 PM - Thu May 10 2018

Alright. So what's stopping me from signing a contract with my Duke to bypass my Count and pay taxes directly to them? From my understanding contracts don't have to public. So if I create enough of a value proposition then there is no reason for my Duke to not take more money from me. Not to mention, at this level of success, the volume of production of a resource that is important to the growth of the region would be a very large chunk of the economy. Especially in the Alpine forests where stone is only attainable through trade with the Hrothi. So there is more than a monetary proposal to be made. As Regnion mentioned there are approximately 24 counties in a duchy, so even if my Count doesn't like it, so long as it's worth enough to the Duke, there's nothing the Count would be able to do against 23 other counties.

So instead of paying tax to a count you wanna just pay it to the Duke? so in other words nothing changes except you just bypass the Count, except the Count exists because it's their job to use some of that tax to build infrastructure for the entire county and ensure resources across the entire county are harnessed properly aswell as other things. The Count works for the Duke, the count tries to run a successful County so there is prosperity and the Duke can also get paid. If everyone stops paying the Count that means the County wont function adequately which means the Dukes Duchy isn't functioning properly so for the Duke to take your tax instead is both pointless and is shooting themselves in the foot.


5/10/2018 4:40:57 PM #12

Posted By RedDoggybone at 12:34 PM - Thu May 10 2018

Yeah as a Count I just don't see me allowing you to get away with not paying any taxes no matter what the size of your army. At the very least I would starve your ass out. Ok, now you got your lumberjack, saw mill, carpentry kingdom all set up. Who exactly do you plan to sell your products to when I won't allow any one to buy from you or at the very least rob/ confiscate every shipment into and out of your little kingdom?

Any one who did manage to buy anything from you would pay a heavy punishment from me. You would need other supplies your little kingdom can't provide. How exactly do you plan to get them delivered when I have an embargo on your kingdom? Not to mention imagine the Duke allowing you to get away with that. If he did soon others would be doing it as well.

That's fair, but for argument's sake let's say my Settlement is on the border of your County, and the Duke directly controls the neighboring County. My trade is just run through that border with the Duke I've already signed a contract with. You're putting yourself in a worse position than I am if you start raiding shipments going to your Duke.


5/10/2018 4:41:33 PM #13

Posted By Regnion at 10:28 AM - Thu May 10 2018

Posted By Barleyman at 10:26 AM - Thu May 10 2018

The odds that your potential enemies will sooner or later have bigger fish to fry are statistically high. Prepare for an independence war and declare it when the threatening parties are otherwise indisposed. So yes, if you can maintain it you can gain complete independence.

I was going to say this earlier, until I realized the would-be City State might require the same Story Points and Influence as a full-blown king. In other words, they would need tremendous involvement, as well as support of a foreign power, in addition to both the manpower and the coin to enable it all. At that point they're probably more eligible to be a Duke than a measly Lord-Mayor.

There is no reason they would need the story points of a king. That's ridiculous. Independence does not catapult you into king status.

There have been hundreds of fully independent lords from the equivalents of Baron, Count, and Duke levels. It's a matter of contracts, no contract = no fealty.

And, the political situations of any given city can vary ENORMOUSLY. The idea of an independent city state might seem unlikely at first, but frankly I think the idea that the kingdoms will be internally stable, particularly after launch, is a lot more unlikely.

No, it wouldn't be easy, no it wouldn't be guaranteed, BUT it isn't impossible by any means. If you're a sufficiently skilled warrior and politician you can pull it off, plenty of others have done so before you. Having skilled and loyal subordinates helps too.


5/10/2018 4:42:21 PM #14

Posted By SoulSpark at 12:23 PM - Thu May 10 2018

Posted By Mr.Laübrends at

Let's say I start off as a Brudvir Carpenter. As I continue to refine my craft and fill my coffers, I hire my own lumberjacks and more carpenters. Soon, I realize that it would be better to have a sawmill closer to the source of the material, and I buy a plot of land from my count deep in the forest, clear the area and build an outpost for processing wood (because you can build anywhere), because of the location of my outpost I then hire guards to protect my property and employees. As my operations grow more and more people start to settle around my outpost and soon, the outpost becomes a defacto settlement. The number of guards has now grown to the size of a small army. At this point, I decide I no longer want to pay taxes to the count, duke or king. If I am able to defend my holdings would I be able to be break free from the rule of the count, duke and king and simply be a free city?

You wouldn't stand a chance. The Count wouldn't allow it and the Duke wouldn't allow it and the Duke commands entire armies via his Baronies not to mention the Monarch of the entire Kingdom wouldn't be best pleased since part of that tax makes it's way up to them. Fact is if they let you do that, then everyone would get the idea to not pay tax and do their own thing and unfortunately like the real world it's not going to be acceptable and don't forget you're practically going to be living in a feudal society, so you would be crushed fairly quickly and made an example of.

True. Just the beginning of an idea. So let's just start with a county then. What would be the possibility of being a settlement with no count and only a duke?

There's no such thing as no count. There will always be dukes and counts even if they're NPC and the NPC's will probably be even less pleased at tax avoidance and rebellion.

I don't mean there not being a Count present. I just mean bypassing the Count in the dealings.


5/10/2018 4:45:55 PM #15

Posted By Mr.Laübrends at 5:42 PM - Thu May 10 2018

I don't mean there not being a Count present. I just mean bypassing the Count in the dealings.

Right ok and how do you think the other 22 counts would feel about their Duke interfering into a Counts County and backing the independence of a City State against the wishes of one of their counts? Who is a duke more likely to want to piss off, the guy who has built a small settlement up or a Count in charge of an entire county and who is working for the best interests of the Duchy?


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