Time will tell whether SBS go down LIFs path of controlling hostilities. Hostiles also make up the population and while they frustrate us, they give us a reason to invest in our defences and work together with the defenders of the realm.

The PVPers need an outlet and the freedom to do what they want with their only restrictions being how the defenders prevent it, fight back, outsmart them, etc. Not game mechanics.

Trust those who are victims of hostilities be forced to think of ways to stop it or make themselves a less attractive target.

Concerns the nerfarious may start fires will encourage Mayors to build more wells around the town. To invest in stone instead of wood or seek the services of those who have researched flammable proof wood.

Concerns the nerfarious will spread disease encourages Mayors to control their trade ensuring they are informed of plagued communities they're trading with, ensuring they have the medicines in stock, etc.

If caught, the nerfarious can be locked up for life. Which is a very big deterrent that reduces the number of "griefers".

By not allowing these opportunities to "grief" there's no need to be as creative to defend your people against outside threats. Ideally, nobles rise and fall but only the smartest and most cunning will continue to rise. Game designers musn't assist the less capable and the incompetent.

Posted By Kambien at 4:41 PM - Mon Dec 10 2018

The skill of the forester should have a big impact on the time it takes to cut down a tree. it may take novices 4 hours, but skilled lumber jacks can probably fell a tree in 1/4 of the time or less, especially if they have equipment like saws.

Skills should NOT have a large impact on how quickly a tree falls. That would be an incentive to chop down trees just to level the skill, leading to basically the same problem that we are trying to avoid here. You don't want griefers to be rewarded for mass deforestation on a regular basis by making them better at it the more that they do it.

It should be tied more to the equipment, that way it will be harder for randoms without any good tools to just chop away.

BTW, if it wasn't apparent, the 48 min is just an equivalency to the 4 hour in real life. I'm certainly no lumberjack.

If it instead takes 2 hours in real life for an untrained person to cut down a tree, by themselves with only an axe/saw, then by comparison it would take 24 minutes for an untrained character to chop down a tree in-game.

You want to set the base time for cutting down a tree at an unskilled level, and then have it adjusted for skill, equipment, or whatever it is that will improve your ability that the devs come up with.

The point is that it should take a fair bit of time instead of the mere seconds it takes in most games, since CoE is a resource limited game (they don't just respawn in minutes).

I am all for having a greater output in terms of lumber acquired to make the time investment worth it.

My question would be, why are we talking about skill for this as if there are any gathering skills at all?

With that in mind, I think the idea is good about having a varying degree of time required based upon the quality of gathering tools. People that gather regularly are probably more likely to have the proper tools for this when compared to random griefers.

With no gathering skills, one must look in other directions.

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/blog/26802/Adventure-Intro-From-Pre-to-Alpha

Posted By 1mmaculateDeception at 2:21 PM - Tue Dec 11 2018

My question would be, why are we talking about skill for this as if there are any gathering skills at all?

With that in mind, I think the idea is good about having a varying degree of time required based upon the quality of gathering tools. People that gather regularly are probably more likely to have the proper tools for this when compared to random griefers.

With no gathering skills, one must look in other directions.

Oh, you know, because there is probably a skill for it.

There arent gathering skills. Do you see wood chopping as a bubble coming off of Forestry? All three of those bubbles leading from Forestry are skills where you build something or create something. Now there probably would be some skills for what you do to the wood after its chopped down but if you look throughout the entire skill bloom, you will see there is not one single gathering skill shown.

The skill that might effect it would be axe usage or whatever tool you are using to cut down the tree. I dont think there is actually a wood chopping skill though.

Right, not a skill directly but Forestry may have an impact on how the growing and cutting of trees is done.

Honestly, I hope we don't have to see skill increases from such things as tree cutting and mining because it would lead to a quick clearing out of resources which would likely just be left to rot.

I can't say if equipment would really offer much of a bonus either though. SBS has made a point of saying that it's your ability and knowledge that matter more than what the item is being wielded. So perhaps a trained lumberjack has a set of techniques that they have learned to be more efficient than a regular person. In which case the amount of time it would take to chop down a tree, for them, would be less then the base.

The quality of metal in axes and saws definitely has an effect on the yield that a lumberjack can achieve. It isn't all about the lumberjack's skill.

Much more importantly, the yield of any wood-gathering activity is going to depend quite a bit on what the end-product of that activity is. If the end-product is cut lumber to order, then there are multiple distinct RL steps and capitalization in equipment involved. If this is represented in-game then any skill advancement won't be just in chopping, but in trimming, hauling, and perhaps operating sawmills as well.

Have it so a law is passed whereby you require a license to cut down trees, you are able to cut trees down without one which is thus illegal but make it so the game recognises when an unlicensed player is cutting down too many.

If an unlicensed player is cutting too many then it's clearly an act of griefing and one difficult to stop as other players aren't just going to be passing by to see it happening. So if the Griefer cuts too many whilst unlicensed then it should switch off their ability to cut trees for a large length of time.

With this idea, everyone still manages to cut trees for wood they need but the griefer is stopped in their tracks when it's clearly only being done for griefing purposes.

Posted By Stormbreaker at 09:21 AM - Wed Dec 12 2018

Have it so a law is passed whereby you require a license to cut down trees, you are able to cut trees down without one which is thus illegal but make it so the game recognises when an unlicensed player is cutting down too many.

If an unlicensed player is cutting too many then it's clearly an act of griefing and one difficult to stop as other players aren't just going to be passing by to see it happening. So if the Griefer cuts too many whilst unlicensed then it should switch off their ability to cut trees for a large length of time.

With this idea, everyone still manages to cut trees for wood they need but the griefer is stopped in their tracks when it's clearly only being done for griefing purposes.

While that's a fair idea, and something other games might do, I don't see SBS putting a game mechanic restriction like that in CoE. It kind of flies in the face of their "freedom to be a criminal" concept.

With that in mind, the most beneficial things in a harassers toolkit are those that take little or no time to accomplish. They can cause their mayhem and get out in short order. So anything that takes more time helps minimize the destruction.

This is prevention we can actually make happen. So long as the result of the extended action is worth the time spent, it should keep crafters/gatherers content.

Reaction is already in place with the investigation system and guards that can be called to action, but the damage is already done.

Posted By Ravenlute at 03:25 AM - Tue Dec 11 2018

In regard to cutting down ironwood trees, don't consider them trees. View them as terrain, like hills or cliffsides. Kypiqs can build homes and dig into them the same way a Hrothi can in a mountain, but you aren't going to be removing the ironwood tree (or the mountain) no matter how much siege equipment you use, because it's a game.

Well... I'd say, if you can dig holes into a mountain, you can dig a LOT of holes into a mountain. With ever more holes, in the end, the mountain is gone. Sure, why would anyone want to do that, but technically, it sounds possible.

Posted By Ravenlute at 11:08 PM - Tue Dec 11 2018

BTW, if it wasn't apparent, the 48 min is just an equivalency to the 4 hour in real life. I'm certainly no lumberjack.

If it instead takes 2 hours in real life for an untrained person to cut down a tree, by themselves with only an axe/saw, then by comparison it would take 24 minutes for an untrained character to chop down a tree in-game.

You want to set the base time for cutting down a tree at an unskilled level, and then have it adjusted for skill, equipment, or whatever it is that will improve your ability that the devs come up with.

The point is that it should take a fair bit of time instead of the mere seconds it takes in most games, since CoE is a resource limited game (they don't just respawn in minutes).

I am all for having a greater output in terms of lumber acquired to make the time investment worth it.

With a day being just roughly 3 hours in CoE, shouldnt any time be divided by 8 for comparison? Which means, if something takes 2 hours irl, it would be 15 minutes in CoE?

but whatever, chopping a tree doesnt take that long. Having the minute for skilled lumberjacks divided by 8 means just some chops for seven-and-a-half seconds. I think, one minute for well-equipped and skilled lumberjacks for getting the tree down is fine. Very big trees obviously longer, joung and small trees faster. And obviously, badly equipped and unskilled lumberjacks will take more time, too.

And chopping down trees is quite loud. You can just have some people hear that for quite a distance (talent: feel the wood). If SSG wants to, they can give some animal very good ears and we can train that animal to warn us, whenever someone in one or two kilometers radius hits a tree and run in that direction. They wont get THAT many trees down while we are on our way there. Anything higher than one or two kilometers will be nearer to the next settlement. Or the wood is huge and empty anyway and it doesnt matter.

There are several technicalities that affect this discussion.

First, a griefer may not actually have to cut down trees to cause grief. Cutting through the bark and living layer all the way around the trunk will kill the tree just as certainly, and with a lot less effort -- it scales linearly with the diameter and circumference.

Second, the scaling factor for a particular tree depends on the hardness of its wood. Ironwood may be the extreme example, insofar as its wood is evidently so hard that the technology of the starting era is not capable of making tools that can penetrate it. As an aside, it would be interesting to know if such strength is present in the bark as well, as that would make tree-killing by cutting the bark circumferentially quite difficult.

Third, the scaling factor depending on the diameter/circumference of a tree may be up to squared when using a saw and up to cubed when using an axe. This is because a saw needs to remove a very thin cylinder of wood all across the trunk, while an axe needs to remove wedge-shaped sections with a height dependent on the diameter.

Driving a few copper nails into a tree (depending on size) will stop the growth then kill the tree. Also salt water and a few choice chemical cocktails will kill trees. Rerouting river flow can destroy an entire forest. A person who wants to cause problems for others is a problem but should we really be looking at them as such?

I have played rust for hours just chopping wood and collecting resources only to have people come over and kill me and my friends. So we banded together and made a small Police force that fended them off. It made for excellent gameplay and a over all good time.

Trees are no different. Even if a tree dies the seeds will fall and more will grow. So look to your count and ask them to put tax money into finding those that wish to destroy their county's economy and that's when more game play will be added. And instead of just letting those that are caught rot in jail send them into the salt mines and have them work until they starve to death or if they are really bad just send a batch of convicted out to one of the islands and make them have no hope of returning. If what they did deserves death, then tie them up and sail out to permanent death ocean area and make them walk the plank. Then they'll need to pay the devs money to get back in and do it again so at least it benefits the game as a whole.

There are just as many ways to deal with people of this nature as they have to destroy our trees. Their actions should not be seen as more important then the lumberjack game play experience. And as a future shipwright/lumberjack I don't want to spend 40 minutes falling a tree (unless it's a fun in game experience) just because some @sshat wants to get his/her rocks off on causing me pain.

Let us as players deal with the problems of the outlaws.

Posted By Zairick at 6:06 PM - Fri Dec 14 2018

Driving a few copper nails into a tree (depending on size) will stop the growth then kill the tree. Also salt water and a few choice chemical cocktails will kill trees. Rerouting river flow can destroy an entire forest. A person who wants to cause problems for others is a problem but should we really be looking at them as such?

I have played rust for hours just chopping wood and collecting resources only to have people come over and kill me and my friends. So we banded together and made a small Police force that fended them off. It made for excellent gameplay and a over all good time.

Trees are no different. Even if a tree dies the seeds will fall and more will grow. So look to your count and ask them to put tax money into finding those that wish to destroy their county's economy and that's when more game play will be added. And instead of just letting those that are caught rot in jail send them into the salt mines and have them work until they starve to death or if they are really bad just send a batch of convicted out to one of the islands and make them have no hope of returning. If what they did deserves death, then tie them up and sail out to permanent death ocean area and make them walk the plank. Then they'll need to pay the devs money to get back in and do it again so at least it benefits the game as a whole.

There are just as many ways to deal with people of this nature as they have to destroy our trees. Their actions should not be seen as more important then the lumberjack game play experience. And as a future shipwright/lumberjack I don't want to spend 40 minutes falling a tree (unless it's a fun in game experience) just because some @sshat wants to get his/her rocks off on causing me pain.

Let us as players deal with the problems of the outlaws.

Deforestation is an actual thing according to SBS, so that is why some are concerned about it as a threat from griefers.

Yes, deforestation will have to be fought by larger groups/counts/dukes and such to stop it in most cases.

So far SBS has said actual incarceration/trapping a player through jail/prison won't be a thing.

Last I'd seen SBS has said you won't be able to tie up someone against their will nor move them anywhere against their will, so taking them to an island won't be a thing. Taking them against their will out on a ship to perma death them won't be a thing.

40 minutes is a bit extreme, but 30 minutes for a newbie without skill and with bad gear isn't out of the question. Better gear and a bit more player knowledge and knock that down to 20 minutes. Even better gear and knowing almost perfectly the best way to strike and the angle of swings, tempo and such...now you've got it down to 10 minutes.

All in all, providing valuable resources like wood should take time, just like making a decent boat should take time...and that time restriction also makes it more difficult to do market flooding by pricks and deforestation and other types of said activities by griefers.