It’s something that isn’t official yet and was a discussion on discord that the developers have shared.

ahhhh ok. Thank you. I am in and out of discord, and caught some discussion about it later, but wasn't really sure what it was.

PhKnight, the general idea is that Ancestral land is that land (parcel/s of land) that, at the start of the game, will not be taxated. The law can be changed but it is like this as defalt. This land is the land bought with EP or recieved with packages.

I can see Kypiqs going all Fippy Darkpaw -- "It's Nerans like you who've ruined your own lands! You'll not ruin mine!"

Honestly I bet most kingdoms monarch will just write a law saying ancestral lands are the same as normal land, otherwise big chunks of the land is tax free yet using the county infrastructure.

So we have gone in a complete circle.

"EP land won't be taxed" "EP land will have the same flat tax as every other type of land" "EP land now called Ancestral land won't be taxed"

I agree with Maulvorn. I can't see kings passing up on all that tax. Knowing that each title will build slower because of it as well.

I honestly hope they decide against this. It was a cop out idea when first purposes to prevent having to code in tax rates for EP land and purposely creating conflict.

It’s a dumb idea. What because I’m a count my ancestors were so stupid they allowed folks to buy land that was tax free in perpetuity?

Leave it all as a flat tax based on quality of the parcel and be done with it. There will be plenty of conflict without artificially creating more.

For people who want their EP land not to be taxed for as long as they hold it -- as "ancestral lands" or otherwise. Keep in mind that such a restriction on tax power will operate as an incentive for domain holders in which such lands exist to implement policies that encourage the removal of those lands from the ownership of anyone with ancestral rights. Beware perverse incentives. Better to provide some incentive, such as increased taxation, to encourage protection of such rights.

I think the whole ancestral land debate is being overblown. Here is my take. Historically there have been landowners who got their land given to them for something they did for the King. Maybe they saved the life of a royal or stood up for the honor of the queen, ect. Why not in ELyria? It ads to the history and yes probably conflict. But controlled conflict is a good part of what this game is about.

What I took from the Discord convo: Ancestral lands will be bought during expo and will be contained folliwing the same snaking rules used during DSS. The ancestral lands will be beholden to the KIng only. You will have to follow the Kingdom rules including any taxes leveied by the King on you. You will not be beholden to Duchy or County level laws and taxes.

Now is this neighborly? I don't think so. All a Duke or Count has to do is get the King to make a decree that you have to follow the county laws and pay county taxes. The Count or Duke could attack you but it would be illegal without a Decree from the King. So I don't think it will be really a big problem as most ancestral land owners want to get along with their local Count and will work out an agreement that is amiable to all including taxes. Besides if the Land owner was besieged by bandits I'm sure they would like some backup and if all you had done was thumb your nose at the Count or Duke. Well buddy you are on your own.

So yes I think ancestral lands will add to spice of the game. And No I don't think they will wreck anything and won't be allowed to be game breaking through the mechanics. Ultimately the King has final say and Counts and Dukes will have his ear much more than a guy out in the woods that owns 10 parcels of ancestral lands.

Posted By Focii at 9:28 PM - Tue Jul 16 2019

I think the whole ancestral land debate is being overblown. Here is my take. Historically there have been landowners who got their land given to them for something they did for the King. Maybe they saved the life of a royal or stood up for the honor of the queen, ect. Why not in ELyria? It ads to the history and yes probably conflict. But controlled conflict is a good part of what this game is about.

What I took from the Discord convo: Ancestral lands will be bought during expo and will be contained folliwing the same snaking rules used during DSS. The ancestral lands will be beholden to the KIng only. You will have to follow the Kingdom rules including any taxes leveied by the King on you. You will not be beholden to Duchy or County level laws and taxes.

Now is this neighborly? I don't think so. All a Duke or Count has to do is get the King to make a decree that you have to follow the county laws and pay county taxes. The Count or Duke could attack you but it would be illegal without a Decree from the King. So I don't think it will be really a big problem as most ancestral land owners want to get along with their local Count and will work out an agreement that is amiable to all including taxes. Besides if the Land owner was besieged by bandits I'm sure they would like some backup and if all you had done was thumb your nose at the Count or Duke. Well buddy you are on your own.

So yes I think ancestral lands will add to spice of the game. And No I don't think they will wreck anything and won't be allowed to be game breaking through the mechanics. Ultimately the King has final say and Counts and Dukes will have his ear much more than a guy out in the woods that owns 10 parcels of ancestral lands.

Thing is, I personally wouldn't of mind if it was a rarity, like one or two people per duchy, but potentially in some of the more populated counties huge swaths of the land could be EP bought, at least on the nice bits, depriving the Count and duke of taxes from that and whatever laws the count and duke make.

"You will have to follow the Kingdom rules including any taxes leveied by the King on you. You will not be beholden to Duchy or County level laws and taxes."

It puts the monarch in a terrible position, since for many of the kingdoms that is going to cause friction between the monarch and Vassals, it's not a hill many of them want to die on and as you said in it for the most part most monarchs will just write in law that the ancestral lands are the same as normal plots.

The worry comes from if they take all the good parcels shaft the local count.

There are other ways to oppose that without attacking the holder of the ancestral lands. For instance, a count could impose a pavage tax (tax for roads) and then require that anyone coming or going from the ancestral lands pay the pavage tax or face the consequences of not paying a lawful tax. (Toll booths wherever the road enters or leaves county jurisdictional lands, including around any "ancestral lands.") This could make the lands more expensive than other lands or expose them to adverse possession.

And yes, historically there were many tax exemptions. Nobles, in fact, negotiated blanket tax exemptions in exchange for military service -- and then dodged their military service. The result was that taxes fell disproportionately on those who work (peasants), and this led to unrest and rebellion.

I agree the potential for abuse is there. I can also see where title holders are coming from. In a way it's good we are having this discussion now so as the mechanics are being built and tuned maybe a solution for all can be worked out. I think Caspian likes some inter kingdom turmoil and conflict. Heck they call it the Dance after all. My thought is ancestral land is purposely there to add some spice right off the bat. They key will be to tune it so it can't be abused to a level it hurt's someone else's gameplay.

I'd rather not have any mechanic for ancestral lands other than, perhaps, some attachment to them. Ancestral lands could then be any lands purchased with EP. No tax advantages (except perhaps those created by law as a king, count or duke choice, rather than game mechanic). No sidestepping jurisdiction or law.

Perhaps an heir of the ancestral holder could have an enduring claim to the land -- giving them a lawful claim to them, both for casus bellum purposes and for adverse possession purposes (possibly faster adverse possession if the person adversely possessing the land has an ancestral right to them).

I missed this discussion on discord. Which forum was it on and when? I might want to go back and read it.

Posted By Beathan at 4:58 PM - Tue Jul 16 2019

I missed this discussion on discord. Which forum was it on and when? I might want to go back and read it.

It was in the DSS channel. Started Wed 7/10 around 6:00pm CST. Was brought up again around noon or Thurs and went on and off for about 6 hours. Just search (ancestral) and go back to last Wed.