Is this is a realistic discussion on combat or a discussion on realistic combat? Because it seems like the latter with the implication that M&B potentially has the best melee combat. It's not the best melee combat, that sounds like something claimed by people who simply prefer that style of combat. It is, however, relatively realistic combat and people seem to love to mix the two.

This game is aiming for a mix of Absolver, fighting games, Dark Souls, and For Honor, through the use of its stance system, switching between styles, and the use of a predefined moveset. This game is not going to be as realistic as many of those games (in terms of control over the weapon), but at the same time I'd say that I consider For Honor to be the best melee combat in gaming right now. It's not as realistic even if the techniques thrown are realistic, but in terms of fluidity, weight, room for skill, and general enjoyment factor it, in my opinion, infinitely beats out combat systems reliant on what M&B, Mordhau, and friends have successfully shown can get dull very quick. For Honor has its own share of problems, but that's independent from combat, and it shows realistic weapon control =/= best.

Freeform combat quickly loses its marvel when people can block on reaction a few days into release, at which point it just becomes tedious, reliant on who can spam feint more, and is generally not something most people would be willing to play with for any lengthy period of time - and certainly not something that most would find entertaining enough to keep them in a game that requires you stay around for literal years to attempt to see what the combat system truly allows. Part of maintaining a playerbase in a long-term game like that is room for growth, something every other profession and nuance of the game will have, and that isn't something you can get with the realistic weapon control approach unless you're willing to intentionally gimp gameplay for a couple years.

As for what we can sacrifice, could you elaborate? Are we talking about technical issues like desync, ping, etc? I'd say I wouldn't want desync, but I've also learned to adapt to it due to how many MMOs over the years have been plagued by it. Luckily, the devs have put such a heavy emphasis on "you need decent ping for this game" and serverside data that desync isn't likely to be as big an issue; that tends to come from the client interpreting where someone will be incorrectly, which in turn generally comes from one side having higher ping. With their adamant stance on the game's data usage, and even having OCE servers, there's likely to be fewer desync issues than most games. But if I have to arbitrarily choose something to sacrifice, it'd be that. Engaging gameplay itself is too important to me.

Or are we talking about the depth and nuance of the system? Because I vastly prefer what we've been promised. A ton of fighting styles, the choice to customize which styles you use, and Absolver/fighting game-esque gameplay. The team also likes to talk about player skill vs character skill and how your character can improve over time - all of those games, minus Darkfall (loosely), are pretty much the polar opposite of that intent. Those games also imply you have to fight in first person the vast majority of the time, whereas this game seems to be more third-person focused with the option for first-person.

As a person who both competitively plays fighting games and enjoys traditional MMO PvP, this game's combat drew me in as it was promised and marketed. M&B, Mordhau, and Mortal Online, while enjoyable in their own ways, don't have the depth that I care about, don't have the skill ceiling for combat that I care about, and also clash with the game's ideology in a number of ways. I don't need a hundred different movesets, but with what they've implied, it appears that's probably what we'll get - luckily, if people are worried about how much effort is required to take that many, they've also spoken about how not every single move in every single moveset will be unique. They'll reuse more than enough animations between similar sets with similar weapons, it's just that each moveset represents a different goal overall.

Finally, the claim that "sacrifices must be made somewhere", while pragmatic and helps prevent setting yourself up for failure, can't actually be sourced. I'm sure there will be some hiccups in some way come release, but I'm not going to randomly start claiming what things I'd be willing to live without because of what's basically 'they can't possibly deliver the full promise'. I want flexible gameplay, one that doesn't result in constant rubberbanding, and a meta that isn't about who can feint more (and whether you've mastered the timing to react to such with muscle-memory) or Chiv-cripple their character into stabbing their opponent at impossible angles. I want fights to be beyond "once you've seen one high level fight, you've seen them all". What they've promised so far matches all that. While they are aiming for an upper echelon game overall and intend to beat out everything else in the market, those fundamentals aren't much to ask for as plenty of games have pulled it off. There's no obligation to switch to first-person swing-and-feint gameplay to somehow remedy it, especially since that's just as prone to its own slew of issues.

Keep in mind that you aren't expected to mash your combos in large scale fights. Most movesets are going to start off with a first attack, or at least the sub-attack you can do at any point in a combo, being a standard, efficient jab-type opener. The combat system is designed where, more often than not, you'll want to not continue your combo and use the openers again. You won't be starting combos with a flashy spin move - and whenever they are performed, it's because you weighed the risks vs rewards whilst being at the end of a combo. This means in large-scale fighting, within the waves of mooks, it'll be more about pressing the attack button once, waiting for the combo to reset, and then pressing it again. Either you're trained to attack in sequence with your allies or you're specifically using a moveset that is made for efficiency in war. The benefit of the moveset system is that there's likely to be movesets for all situations and you can switch as necessary.

The game with the current combat system is clearly balanced more around 1v1s and smaller scale combat. Large-scale combat tends to be a shitshow in MMOs regardless of whether they're made for it. Even in the hypothetical scenario that the netcode is perfect, people are people. The difference between NPCs who are willing to stick to formation and players who think the game is Dynasty Warriors will always make it difficult. This game also isn't a war simulator, that's just one direction you're able to go.

Make sure to remember that the more people are involved in a fight, the less individuals matter. What starts mattering is the general leading and the strategy; the people fighting either have to accept their role as mooks that will only press the most efficient button/use the most efficient fighting style that doesn't kill their allies, or they leave the mook fighting for the NPCs whom are more than happy to change how they play and instead join small cells that engage in small-scale PvP where the combat system matters more.

Sadly, no matter which direction they take the combat system, it will hardly matter in large-scale fighting with friendly fire being a thing. It's best to build around enjoyable smaller scale combat and take advantage of the flexibility of movesets when it comes to larger scale.

The biggest draw CoE has, at least imo, is that it brings so many different skills to the table but you could feel some what unique. You can take the skills CoE offers and make your own profession. I would want that to carry over into the combat as well. Have a good amount of fighting styles and let people show their personality through their weapons. If you want your slower pace but accurate weapon for group combat then there should be a style and a weapon that let you fight like that(formation and spears should do the trick).

If I had to pick a game CoE could copy for their fighting mechanics, it would be for honor. For honor had enough mechanics to where you could do well with the basics but could take it to the next level after learning your weapon and character. You also felt like the class you were fighting. I understand that would be a lot of SBS to take on. They wouldn't have to give us all weapons or styles at once. They could lock some behind research or even story events.

I think locking some of the extra combat styles behind research (or later expansions) would do a lot to relieve pressure of the combat system getting stuck in development hell.

Posted By CameronHall at 2:22 PM - Wed Nov 13 2019

Finally, the claim that "sacrifices must be made somewhere", while pragmatic and helps prevent setting yourself up for failure, can't actually be sourced. I'm sure there will be some hiccups in some way come release, but I'm not going to randomly start claiming what things I'd be willing to live without because of what's basically 'they can't possibly deliver the full promise'.

I'm not sure what you mean by the bolded. This thread was made more in response to the many posts i've seen over the years of everything that everyone wants to see in this game's combat (and melee specifically). There are a lot of pie-in-the-sky posts on this forum and not a lot of anchoring to reality.

Yes we've been promised a lot, but realistically, if we ever want to see this game and its combat, I'm fully expecting some of these promises will have to hit the back burner or be cut entirely.

I think combat could be both fluid and dynamic if it is kept simple rather than overly complex since it has to function on both keyboard & mouse and controller.

There are only so many directional attack that need to be apparent in combat that many weapons share which include the exotic weapons as well.

Which are: Forward (stab), Downward/upward chop, Left/right attacks, Upward diagonal left/right attacks, downward diagonal left/right attacks, block/bash/thrust with a shield

Most if not all weapons will conform to those basic directional attacks depending on if they are slashing, crushing, or piercing damage and most weapons will have some kind of component of all 3 damage types which could easily and fluidly be performed through attacking and how you are moving when it is performed.

If you are moving forward you are likely attacking, just as if you are moving backwards you are likely taking a defensive stance. If you can fluidly move between defensive or offensive abilities it makes combat immediatly much more more fluid then creating specific buttons or abilities if you can simply just perform them on the go as needed.

Adding them together looks like this: Stab (W+attack), Chop (Shift+W+Attack), Left Slash (A+Attack) or Right Slash (D+Attack), Diagonal downward Left Slash (W+A+Attack), Diagonal downward right slash (W+D+Attack), Upward diagonal left slash (S+A+Attack) as Parry, Upward diagonal right slash (S+D+Attack) as Parry

No matter if you are using a single weapon, two hander, or weapon and shield they will follow those controls better than any string of moves they can come up with along with stances if the locomotion and control scheme is set up right. the only difference is what hand the weapon is in or if you have both hands wielding different weapons you would still need to attack with either hand with mouse 1 or 2 or the triggers on a game pad.

Likewise blocking would come naturally if there is collision between physical objects like weapons, bodies, objects, etc. A black is as easy was (S+Mouse 2) while a bash is as simple as (W+Mouse 2).

I also think that all moves should require charging to further change the flow of combat. If you are in close quarters and need quick strikes just mash the attack button to swing as fast as you can, but if you have an opening you could charge the attack for a second or two and unleash a more powerful attack. But also based on skill levels you could allow for different levels to stack on each other for crushing blows, critical strike capability, or crippling strikes. I think that you shouldn't be able to hold a charge forever and that you have only a couple seconds before you have to strike or you lose it.

The simpler the better. They dont need to add tons of stuff beyond the many weapons each tribe uses vs the weapons they dont. Any relic abilities could easily be applied to buttons along with alt functions perfect for a controller or keyboard.

Dark Souls 3 makes combat feel really good, but of course rolling isn't realistic combat.