edits:
- added note section
- changed Started to Active
- removed Stalled and merged with Pre-Req
- changed Complete to Ready, improved definitions of Pending, Ready, and Pre-Req.
- merged and improved post #41
edits:
I wouldn't suggest something like this at all. It gets peoples hopes up, things aren't always done in order, things get done when they need to get done and creating something like this makes a bad image for the community when they aren't doing a certain something at a certain time or it's taking a long time to finish something on the list or whatever the case. To me, it's honestly worse than providing dates.
It sets up way too much of an expectation. This would be nice to see for the Alpha members in the Early access thread when we are testing but outside that, don't suggest at all.
Good input though.
release.Posted By VioletWinterlynn at 6:28 PM - Mon Nov 18 2019
I wouldn't suggest something like this at all. It gets peoples hopes up, things aren't always done in order, things get done when they need to get done
That does not provide any reason for why this is a bad idea.
and creating something like this makes a bad image for the community when they aren't doing a certain something at a certain time or it's taking a long time to finish something on the list or whatever the case.
No it does not, nothing about this creates a bad image of SBS. On the contrary, it actually provides a very good image of SBS for the community. It shows progress. It does not set a time to finish anything nor does it set an order for anything to be accomplished. It merely shows the status of the milestones.
To me, it's honestly worse than providing dates.
It sets up way too much of an expectation. This would be nice to see for the Alpha members in the Early access thread when we are testing but outside that, don't suggest at all.
It is far better than saying things like "likely in the summer" and other similar comments that do create a bad image of SBS for the community. A milestone tracker sets up exactly zero expectations, it merely tracks the already set expectation that there will be a 0.5.0 that was already 'set up' a long time ago.
Good input though.
Thank you. And thank you for providing yours so that I could attempt to clear up your misunderstanding.
It creates absolutely expectations for things to get done and when for them to get done. It sets expectations for when things will start, and when people will get things.
Instead of dates, you want a "list" of everything that is going to get done and you want them to take the time out of their day away from developing to instead shift their focus in ticking off and posting on the forums what all got done that day.
That is a timeline. You want them to provide absolutely more information on what they're working on, what they're finishing what they're doing next and whatever else the case. This won't happen, because it would set too many expectations from the community when things do and or don't get done or whatever is getting done in a different line than something else.
You're expecting them to be done with something that you think is completely easy and a simple task. You see they didn't get that done in the time you expected. Your expectation is shattered and you thus lose trust because of an expectation.
I'm not sure how else to explain it clearly as to why this is absolutely a bad idea at this point in time of development.
Posted By VioletWinterlynn at 6:47 PM - Mon Nov 18 2019
It creates absolutely expectations for things to get done and when for them to get done. It sets expectations for when things will start, and when people will get things.
No it doesn't. "Start" and "when" require dates and times. No dates or times are needed. So, it does not. The expectation that 0.5.0 will get done has already long be set. No new expectations are created.
Instead of dates, you want a "list" of everything that is going to get done and you want them to take the time out of their day away from developing to instead shift their focus in ticking off and posting on the forums what all got done that day.
Time out of their day.. literally 1 minute to change one cell on a spreadsheet. Maybe you don't understand what this would actually entail. And I have no idea where you think that this is would require a daily status report. You must have missed where I said it would only be updated when the status of a milestone is changed; changed from Pending to Started to Complete, to Stalled, etc.
That is a timeline. You want them to provide absolutely more information on what they're working on, what they're finishing what they're doing next and whatever else the case. This won't happen, because it would set too many expectations from the community when things do and or don't get done or whatever is getting done in a different line than something else.
It's not a timeline. No expectations are created or set. It's merely a status tracker.
You're expecting them to be done with something that you think is completely easy and a simple task. You see they didn't get that done in the time you expected. Your expectation is shattered and you thus lose trust because of an expectation.
You've lost me now. Perhaps you are too emotional right now and should take a break from commenting here.
I'm not sure how else to explain it clearly as to why this is absolutely a bad idea at this point in time of development.
I don't think you know what a milestone status tracker is.
I am not emotional about this at all, I am simply trying to explain it to you better with examples that are clearly being ignored so further conversation doesnt seem required if its simply going to be ignored for have the conversation.
Setting up something with the expectance to have certain things done, and having people watch what you're doing and working on, is, again as I already said, not good for a public view at this point in development.
A lot of people look at a list, such as the one you presented, and expect it to happen in that order. When something farther down the list gets worked on, the assumption can be made that the work prior to that has been completed. However, if it's realized that the prior work isn't complete the devs suddenly are behind schedule or are skipping (possibly removing?) work.
In other words, people make assumptions of timelines even if it isn't intended.
A note could be added to the top to stave off those assumptions and projected expectations. Such as:
This is not a timeline. Milestones will be worked on in parallel, serial, sequential, or non-sequential. Milestones might be moved to a later release to accelerate this release. Additional milestones might be added as necessary.
Definitions of status:
People don't listen to that. They completely crop it out and ignore messages like that. Point and case to the State of Elyria from July saying Development timeline and people taking it as an actual timeline of releases
Posted By VioletWinterlynn at 8:18 PM - Mon Nov 18 2019
People don't listen to that. They completely crop it out and ignore messages like that. Point and case to the State of Elyria from July saying Development timeline and people taking it as an actual timeline of releases
Some might ignore the note at the top or blindly click ok to the popup that contains the note. And I'm sure some did think that a timeline was a timeline, they even put quarters on the timeline. Deadlines (even fuzzy deadlines like Q3) are never good on a long term kickstarter funded project. It's best to present the goal. Present what is needed to reach the goal. And then provide the status of each milestone. Then there are no date/deadline/timeline expectations, none. Everyone knows they are working on what and sees the progress. No unmet expectations, no frustrations. Sure people will want it to be released faster. However, they won't be able to say that there is no progress nor that the project is a scam nor that it will never happen, because they will have proof of the progress that is being made.
It wasn't just "some" it was literally 90%+ of people.
Posted By VioletWinterlynn at 8:30 PM - Mon Nov 18 2019
It wasn't just "some" it was literally 90%+ of people.
"was" meaning people thought the timeline was a timeline and, because it set the expectation that Prelyria (then ElyriaMUD) was to be released in Q4 2017, people got frustrated when it wasn't released in Q4 2017?
I agree with you. SBS set the expectation that it'd be released Q4 2017 by putting that on the timeline. SBS is at fault for using a date, even if it was a fuzzy date with the cop-out statement that the dates are approximates. Naturally many people would be upset after Q4 2017. Any sort of date, even things like "most likely in the summer" is bad. Cop-outs are especially bad for one's reliability. I know that it'll be done when it gets done. We need to teach other's that truth as well.
This truly is the best method to show progress. It provides reasonable hope and realizes(actualizes?) that hope by allowing everyone to celebrate each step along the way. It's also much easier to say "this milestone is almost done" and for it to truly be done in the near future, because milestones are much smaller than entire releases. Small displays of reliability like that will repair SBS's tarnished reputation.
The model for that I'm using for this, is based off of Star Citizen's road map. I know from experience that my opinion of Star Citizen changed when they switched to their roadmap. Star Citizen does display fuzzy dates on their roadmap, however, i believe that no dates is better.
I swear that this works wonders, it did for me.
Even you're confused.
It wasn't set as an expectation that it'd be released by then. It was set that the development for it would start by then.
