COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
Clarification on RMT
-7

Sorry Caspian but, uh, is it true you said you won't punish the buying and selling of in game items for cash?

Edit: "What is this guy talking about?" Dakota of Vornair posted it below in post 27.


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12/11/2016 7:38:11 PM #16
-1

Posted By Dleatherus at 2:33 PM - Sun Dec 11 2016

no global auction house

no fast travel other than mounts (as far as i know)

a map that would take 48 non-stop hours to walk across

no server transfers

the very high potential of being jumped and losing either the goods you are taking to sell, or the goods you are buying

whereas these won't eliminate real cash transactions they certainly make them less viable and therefore less of a factor for those wishing to play the economy

Actually, a lack of a global auction house makes RMT more attractive. Third party websites become a sort of pricing guideline.

The other factors are important, but aren't necessarily detractors. They create opportunities to disrupt the sale, but they'll still happen, especially if they're greenlit.

EVE titan sales were a common enough occurrence with the additional risk of bans.

I don't see how a game's economy can interact with a real world economy in a fun manner, particularly when it's allowed.

Posted By chipla at 2:33 PM - Sun Dec 11 2016

While I can understand the OP's digust with the Rail Maritime Transport union I doubt that they'll be involved overmuch in this game.

haaaaa


12/11/2016 7:52:39 PM #17
+4

difficult to transport goods if no global auction house

EVE titan sales could fetch as much as $4,000 r/l cash hence people taking the risk

thought not yet known, probably nothing craftable in CoE would fetch that much

maybe some special DE crafted gear?

or somebody selling vampire bites?

or somebody who becomes a lich sells his account?

either way these are exceptions rather than the norm in my opinion - i think the in-game economy will be fine, just like it was in EVE - or at least was up until i quit playing due to GM player abuse - not sure what it's like now


12/11/2016 7:59:00 PM #18
+1

Posted By Dleatherus at 2:52 PM - Sun Dec 11 2016

either way these are exceptions rather than the norm in my opinion - i think the in-game economy will be fine, just like it was in EVE - or at least was up until i quit playing due to GM player abuse - not sure what it's like now

Again, though, that was with a banning system in place.

With no risk to your account, there is nothing to prevent commodities/resources being sold for cash besides in-game travel time and the risks that presents. Automation can help reduce the loss far beyond anything lost to a bad trade route, and having automation in multiple locations can reduce that a bit as well.


12/11/2016 8:02:32 PM #19
+2

we'll find out when game launches

trying to dig deeper than we have above is just theory crafting and speculation


12/11/2016 8:04:35 PM #20
+0

I feel like every other theorycrafter that hears RMT isn't punishable won't care when the game launches.

But you're right.


12/11/2016 8:20:53 PM #21
+2

This is what happens when people have too much time on their hands

Could wait until Alpha/Beta and voice concerns, but instead we have people jumping the gun; none of it the developers' fault, just really stupid people


You may have erased my signature, but you can't corner the dorner

12/11/2016 8:23:32 PM #22
+2

Posted By OrangeBoy at 3:20 PM - Sun Dec 11 2016

This is what happens when people have too much time on their hands

Could wait until Alpha/Beta and voice concerns, but instead we have people jumping the gun; none of it the developers' fault, just really stupid people

Or allowing RMT is just such a mind-numbingly obvious bad move that it's OK to voice concerns now.

Your pick.


12/11/2016 8:32:37 PM #23
+3

Posted By Degs at 12:23 PM - Sun Dec 11 2016

Posted By OrangeBoy at 3:20 PM - Sun Dec 11 2016

This is what happens when people have too much time on their hands

Could wait until Alpha/Beta and voice concerns, but instead we have people jumping the gun; none of it the developers' fault, just really stupid people

Or allowing RMT is just such a mind-numbingly obvious bad move that it's OK to voice concerns now.

Your pick.

Listen, unlike the rest of the RPers and college drop-outs here, I am a realist, and I am also the "realest"

You have companies that are 20,000x bigger than SBS and they still can't handle gold-sellers. Even though blizzard/Jagex have tried to stop them, they just keep coming, yet their games are still up and in pristine condition.

Why would Caspian let alone any other normal functioning and cognitively aware human being even bother, worrying about the 10 people buying gold off of a website, most people know not to spend 1k on pixel coins

It's not even an issue in my eyes. As much as I think your question is kind of a non-issue, the people replying with their shit logic is probably worse


You may have erased my signature, but you can't corner the dorner

12/11/2016 8:35:00 PM #24
+1

RMT typically relies upon gold farmers and boting to make it worthwhile as far as profit goes.

considering money in this game does not appear out of thin air and thus require money sinks to try and deal with inflation, and that all materials and resources in the game work the same way, combined with turning your character into a bot (OPC) when your offline being and actual game mechanic. i think RMT will likely not be much of an issue. i doubt they will need to actively seek it out and punish it, however them being against RMT i imagine if anything glaringly obvious that would cause problems crops up they would punish it. they just don't have the resources to actively hunt it.

considering the large differences between this game and EVE and any of the other player controlled economies ive heard of in mmo's i don't think you can directly compare them, or rather i don't think the results will be anywhere near the same. it might negatively impact things, but the question is whether that impact is negligible or problematic. i think with how different this game is, we will have to wait and see. i trust Caspian to change soulbound's policy if it becomes necessary in this regard


12/11/2016 8:38:34 PM #25
+1

Posted By OrangeBoy at 3:32 PM - Sun Dec 11 2016

Posted By Degs at 12:23 PM - Sun Dec 11 2016

Posted By OrangeBoy at 3:20 PM - Sun Dec 11 2016

This is what happens when people have too much time on their hands

Could wait until Alpha/Beta and voice concerns, but instead we have people jumping the gun; none of it the developers' fault, just really stupid people

Or allowing RMT is just such a mind-numbingly obvious bad move that it's OK to voice concerns now.

Your pick.

Listen, unlike the rest of the RPers and college drop-outs here, I am a realist, and I am also the "realest"

You have companies that are 20,000x bigger than SBS and they still can't handle gold-sellers. Even though blizzard/Jagex have tried to stop them, they just keep coming, yet their games are still up and in pristine condition.

You're right, but it's still forbidden. It's an unacceptable risk for a huge number of players. That tied with soulbound items and most items purchasable with gold being sub-par keeps it a bit in check.

Why would Caspian even bother, worrying about the 10 people buying gold off of a website, most people know not to spend 1k on pixel coins

But I thought you just said gold-sellers are prominent. Are they or aren't they?

Also, seeing as this forum is made primarily of people who have spent a good deal of money backing a game that is still an idea, I feel like that point is completely moot.

But y'know, for the sake of argument, you've never played an economic game with a Saudi prince, have you? Gets unpleasant reeeeeeeal quick. When every purchase can be undermined with oil and slave labor backed in-game currency, it's not really a game anymore.

That's an extreme example, but allowing RMT means every purchase in a competitive economic environment requires taking account of real-world value or being outclassed by those who do.

It's not even an issue in my eyes. As much as I think your question is kind of a non-issue, the people replying with their shit logic is probably worse

Can't argue there.


12/11/2016 8:47:58 PM #26
+2

Posted By Degs at 12:38 PM - Sun Dec 11 2016

Posted By OrangeBoy at 3:32 PM - Sun Dec 11 2016

Posted By Degs at 12:23 PM - Sun Dec 11 2016

Posted By OrangeBoy at 3:20 PM - Sun Dec 11 2016

This is what happens when people have too much time on their hands

Could wait until Alpha/Beta and voice concerns, but instead we have people jumping the gun; none of it the developers' fault, just really stupid people

Or allowing RMT is just such a mind-numbingly obvious bad move that it's OK to voice concerns now.

Your pick.

Listen, unlike the rest of the RPers and college drop-outs here, I am a realist, and I am also the "realest"

You have companies that are 20,000x bigger than SBS and they still can't handle gold-sellers. Even though blizzard/Jagex have tried to stop them, they just keep coming, yet their games are still up and in pristine condition.

You're right, but it's still forbidden. It's an unacceptable risk for a huge number of players. That tied with soulbound items and most items purchasable with gold being sub-par keeps it a bit in check.

Well, look it's all perspective but when it comes down to it, millions still play WoW, RS, and every other game knowing there are gold buyers.

Why would Caspian even bother, worrying about the 10 people buying gold off of a website, most people know not to spend 1k on pixel coins

But I thought you just said gold-sellers are prominent. Are they or aren't they?

It all depends, they may be more prominent in some games and maybe not in others. Not always black and white, but yes there are always gold sellers in whatever MMO you play

Also, seeing as this forum is made primarily of people who have spent a good deal of money backing a game that is still an idea, I feel like that point is completely moot.

Yeah, but every idea needs a backing, again kind of a non-point.

But y'know, for the sake of argument, you've never played a game with a Saudi prince, have you? Gets unpleasant reeeeeeeal quick.

Can't say I have, Saudi nobility just like every other conglomerate-based families go beyond the realm of what is normal; like spending millions on CSGO skins.

It's not even an issue in my eyes. As much as I think your question is kind of a non-issue, the people replying with their shit logic is probably worse

Can't argue there.

Yeah, I can't argue with myself either, thank god for weekends


You may have erased my signature, but you can't corner the dorner

12/11/2016 8:51:05 PM #27
+4

For the sake of context and for the people who were not there for the conversation:

Caspian - Today at 9:30 PM When it comes to selling in-game items in a real-world market we effectively have two choices. We can spend countless hours and resources on trying to stop and track people making money off their in-game items, or we can accept that their time has value to them. If people have a lot of time, but little money, want to use that as a way to create in-game items which they then sell to other players who have disposable income but less free-time, we view that as a win-win.

Caspian - Today at 9:32 PM Our attorney may warn us, and we may have to ultimately put in means to limit such activities, but it's not the direction we want to go with it. We'd rather allow people to make trades as they see fit.

Rahl Draikskorn Ⓥ - Today at 9:35 PM so, I have loads of free time, and I craft a ton of weapons I can sell those weapons for real money?

Caspian - Today at 9:35 PM @Rahl Draikskorn Ⓥ Unless my attorney says otherwise, we're not going to stop you.

Caspian - Today at 9:39 PM Look. My view on this has always been the same. People have, for too long, assumed that the only equitable way to play an MMO is through time. You spend time... more time... and yet even more time, to achieve some level of success in the game. But the reality is, that enforces the idea that the game is about the destination, not the journey. The game should be fun to play in its own right. We shouldn't gate peoples' progress based on time... not least of which because time isn't the only currency. Time = Money, we all know that. Every hour you spend in-game is time you could spend making money in our world. So you're making a choice.

But my view on this is that we need to move past this idea that success if a function of how much time you spend in the world, and start realizing success is a function of how much fun and enjoyment you're getting out of the game. And if it's fun for player A to spend a ton of time in game crafting items for others, and it's fun for player B to come in, purchase an item, and then go off adventuring... then both players benefit and have more fun as a result.


12/11/2016 8:53:53 PM #28
+0

Thanks, Dakota!


12/11/2016 9:28:11 PM #29
+4

as for my opinions on the issue, I applaud SBS for being willing to see that time = money.
And I also agree with Caspian that devoting a lot of time and resources to stop RMT will be extremely challenging. Especially for a team of their size.

I recognize several potential issues with allowing it to happen however, Even if there are mitigating factors like distance, items needing to be transported etc. Where there is a will there is a way to circumvent the limitations, especially when there is no out of game consequences for promoting the willingness to pay cash for items.

One such consequence would be the limiting of research in a given region, If I have the cash supply to buy up all the iron ore in a duchy wide area, I have basically either forced others to compete in the RMT market for those resources, or limited their ability to research any objects that require iron ore. And lets face it, when offered the choice between in game currency and real world currency what are people more likely to choose?

Another potential hotspot are Design Experience tier backers. So lets say I make a fighting style that is highly sought after. But I've also killed all the NPC masters who know this style, so I am the only one who has it. And I decide that I'll share the style with others.... if they pay me Real cash for it. Now I am profiting not off my time and effort but SBS's time and effort.

Then there are potential issues with laws in certain countries. I don't pretend to be an international law expert but I believe some european countries would hold SBS responsible for a person who made a living selling in game swords, (it also could be a potential marketplace for money laundering etc)

So I think that the most important thing the community needs to see and remember from the conversation snippets I posted is this part: "Unless my attorney says otherwise,"

Because they probably will.


12/12/2016 7:04:38 AM #30
+0

As it has been said a lot here it is nearly impossible to fight, just as it will be pointless to fight discord or teamspeak or other voice out of game tools or it will be impossible to fight screenshots of maps........

it will also be really hard to prevent someone to sell baby contracts or to sell land...... since most of things are done with contracts that require both parties to agree to the terms of it and nothing prevent those parties to talk outside of game.

As it has also been said a lot, a number of game mechanism make RMT less easy, travel time, finit ressources, no global trade house or market ....

but also no unified currency , player made laws and unknown world ! those will not stop RMT either but will make it really hard. Sure i can sell me baby contracts but hey you need to find me first and for it to work you need to bring your character next to mine... oups you have no idea where Grobourg, the town i live in, is in the world . same for that nice parcell of land right on top of a gold vein i found north east of Grobourg but only those that can get to that town might be potential buyers, out of your duchy the chances people can find a place are slim.

which make RMT a big deal less easy.

Then comes the currency, we know that there will not be any unified currency in CoE each kingdom, maybe able to mint their own coins and they can decide to ban the use and exchange of foreign coins....

And a lot of others things can be done, BUT at the end nothing will for sure prevent it, but i agrea that SBS can and might have to for legal reason state that they do not support it and that all those are against the rules and will be punished by termination of account.


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