COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
Suggestion : Tree logging skill challenge

It's been a while since my last suggestion on skill challenge related to crafting. Well it takes time to come up with decent idea and finally, I got an acceptable idea for tree logging. Tree logging to me, just like mining, should involve players co-operations, more than other gathering profession. It's also more about expertise in choosing and mastering different tools. I will try to focus more on them. Nonetheless, any feedback are welcomed.

Introduction

Anyone can pick up an axe and chop some wood, but a master lumberjack differentiate himself by understanding the axe he is using, the type of wood he is working on, and being able to master how he chops.

Therefore, the first challenge should be whether a lumberjack knows what angle of chop he want and if he can execute it precisely. By angle of the chop, I mean the angle between a “V” shape.

The second challenge would require the player to decide where to start chopping. Various trees would should have different optimal spot / weakness. Players being able to hit those weak spot would be more efficient than those who can't. This also allows different trees to have more distinct identity. I will explain further below.

Thirdly, tree falling to the ground must stun / cripple or damage other players. This force players working in group to consider which side a tree will fall. They must organize themselves so that they won't hinder each other. On top of that, trees falling onto a rock / another fallen trees / into a river may damage the resulting log, lowering the quality of the end product. Basically, whenever a tree is being chopped, the server has to calculate if the tree is balanced, and if not, it would fall into that direction.


Never argue with an idiot, cuz he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Vice mayor of Lux Verloren

1/28/2017 3:00:17 PM #1

The Basics

Lumberjacks will make a “V” cut on a tree trunk in order to cut it down. Imagine a “V” shape on an horizontal line, then turning it 90 degree into a rotated V on a vertical line. The skill challenge requires player to decide the angle of each chop, the sharper the cut is, the less chop is required. The wider it is, the less stamina is needed (as the blade won't get stuck by the wood). When a character runs out of stamina, he would need to take a 30 to 45 second break. In order to cut down a tree, the cut must be sufficiently deep.

E.g. a cut must go 10cm deep into the trunk before a Coconut tree will fall. A player chopping in sharp angle may need only 12 chops to go 10cm deep while a player using wide angle may need 20 chops to go 10 cm deep. Now, let's say the sharp cut would consume 5 points of stamina for each chop. Therefore, a total of 5 x 12 = 60 stamina is consumed. On the other hand, the wild angle cut will consume 2.5 stamina for each chop, resulting in 2.5x 20 = 50 stamina consumed.

As a result, a wider angle chop would be more efficient in the long run.

By constructing appropriate formulas for stamina consumption, we can produce scenarios with an optimal angle. The further the chopping angle is from the optimal, the less efficient the job would be. Here is an example.

Imgur

In the above example, the further we move away from the optimal angle (70 degree), the less efficient it will be.

As a result, players need to find the optimal angle for each tree and execute (by click dragging once for the first line, and click dragging another line to complete the “V”) the perfect cut to maximize efficiency. For each combination of tree and axe, there would be a unique optimal angle. Therefore, players would need to be familiar with the tools they are using too.

Devs can tweak the formulas so higher level / rarer trees may require more precise angle, and better quality axes will reduce the inefficiency when sub-optimal angle is hit.


Never argue with an idiot, cuz he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Vice mayor of Lux Verloren

1/28/2017 3:04:08 PM #2

Advance tree logging

Identifying the optimal spot on a tree

We have discussed the angle used, but where should we start chopping? 1 meter higher than eye level? or the side facing the mountain? I proposed we introduce weakspots and dangerous spots for more exotic trees. Chopping on weakspot of a tree will greatly reduce stamina consumption / time needed. On the other hand, dangerous spots are a form of tree's self defense mechanism. E.g. Pack of spores may be hiding under the bark, and if players hack into it, it will burst into the air and poison the whole area. Another example can be tree sap running under the bark, and become sticky if come into contacted with the axe, making chopping inefficient. The point is, lumberjacks have to avoid these spots.

To find the desirable spot on a tree, players have to search the tree by touching it. Weakspots need not correspond to the tree's visual appearance. Instead, whenever a player start searching, a window will pop up showing both the 3D model of the tree and where the player's hand is. The player can move the hand (using the mouse) along the tree surface to feel different area of the tree. Smoother area are then dyed in lighter blue (in the pop up window), while rougher surface are dyed in darker blue. Player can also press on the tree (by clicking) to test stiffness for different area. Stiffer area are dyed in lighter yellow while more flaccid part are shown in dark yellow. The overlapping area (where the player has touched and pressed) will be shown in green. For each type of tree, it will have its own pattern of spores / liquid / self-defense mechanism and the only way to bypass these systems are through identifying the pattern using the above mentioned UI. Each type of tree can have their own unique pattern. As a result, Players would have to learn about these patterns by trial and error. Being more experienced will then allow players to identify patterns quicker.

Non-repetitive gameplay

Even for the exact same type of trees, patterns need not be absolutely identical. E.g. Palm trees has rings with smoother surface along the trunk, and their weak spot always lie 2 rings below the thickest ring. The ideal spot for chopping will be the stiffest point in that area. As a result, players would have to first check vertically which ring of the palm is the thickest, then check the stiffness in the area between the second and third ring below the thickest ring.

Another example : White pines in CoE have tree sap that become sticky once exposed to air, making chopping inefficient. Tree bark with tree sap running below are particularly rough. Veins of tree saps always branch out more, further down from the tip of the tree. The weak spot of white pines can always be found at left of the eighth branch of the veins.

Smart players will have to then first estimate the height of the tree and guess roughly where the eighth veins-branch is, and begin to search / press on the left side to confirm if his guess is accurate. The less experience players may have to begin the search from the very top of the tree, and count every branch until reaching the eighth, taking him much longer. For those that do not even know / understand the weak spot / pattern, they may be satisfied as long as they are not hacking at the veins. SBS can add more uncertainties by varying the length between each branch. E.g. the veins of tree sap may branch once every 1.2 meters to every 1.5 meters. These uncertainties / randomness will force the players to study every tree before chopping. Obviously, these patterns / dynamics has to be learn through trial by error.

Interaction with the environment

Patterns of trees can be dynamic instead of static. SBS can introduce patterns affected by the environment. E.g. the side facing the mountain will always have less spores hidden, or the hotter the climate, the wider the veins will be. Here are some more interesting design: e.g. spores of sunflowers will discourage veins of tree sap growing. These spores are usually carried by the wind. Lets say we got 2 white pine forests, 1 North, 1 South, and bushes of sunflowers grow between them. In Summer, when South wind blows, the Northern White pine forest will have widely scattered veins on the trunks facing South. However, in winter when North winds blow much more often, the white pines in the northern forest will turn back to normal, while the Southern white pines will have scattered veins on the trunks facing North.

Even more exotic pattern can be introduced, maybe linking certain trees' patterns with the astral plane. As the story progress, and the astral plane becomes more dangerous, or different energy flows in the astral plane, some trees will be subtlety affected, before visible changes can be observed by the common eyes in the physical world. The possibilities for trees patterns are literally only limited by our imagination. SBS can keep on adding content to enrich the tree logging profession after CoE is officially released.

Enhance story-telling

The biggest advantage of such design is that it introduced another channel for future story telling. The searching window can serve multiple purposes on top of a simple tree logging skill challenge. Players may discover strange marking on tree trunks representing ancient language or spells (Unreadable light blue characters on the rough dark blue tree 3D model). Figures representing ancient maps can be hidden from plain sight and only be unveiled by experienced lumberjack. It is not even far fetched to imagine using such window to somehow represent wood fairies.


Never argue with an idiot, cuz he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Vice mayor of Lux Verloren

1/28/2017 3:08:28 PM #3

Game skill level

As SBS stated, both character skill level and player skill level should affect productivity.

I believe we should cap the information shown in the pop up window. By leveling up, that cap would be gradually raised. Let's say a player has done searching the bottom 20% of a tree, painting it all in different shades of blue. When he starts the 21st %, the 1st % of blue will start disappearing from the UI. At any given time , only 20% of the surface area of a tree is shown on the UI. This forces players to pay close attention to the area he has searched and forbid players to reveal everything about a tree. I would suggest measuring the maximum information available in terms of surface area : e.g. Max. 1 meter square of information can be shown at any time. This will scale the tree logging game level with size of trees. Therefore, if we have a 3 meter wide tree (in diameter), a novice lumberjack would need hours and hours to find the optimal spot, and he can't take it down efficiently.

Another way game level can make an impact, is to increase both the contrast of color (blue and yellow) and the resolution of image shown (like changing from 240p to 1080p for a video). Stronger contrast allow players to spot differences easier. Higher resolution allows more precise spots to be found, while also prevent novice from spotting noticing / recognizing ancient markings / figures / picture etc.


Never argue with an idiot, cuz he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Vice mayor of Lux Verloren

1/28/2017 3:09:24 PM #4

Reserve for future editing


Never argue with an idiot, cuz he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Vice mayor of Lux Verloren

1/28/2017 3:10:04 PM #5

Reserve for future editing


Never argue with an idiot, cuz he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Vice mayor of Lux Verloren

2/4/2017 4:41:01 PM #6

WOW, that's a completely original idea with great depth! Never thought lumberjack can be interesting too.

A long read for sure, but this is the most detailed and well thought suggestion I have read so far.

I wonder, what about the details of the third challenge: forcing players to work together?

Can the server manage that many weak spots for trees? Just imagine, there will be millions of trees in the world.

Interesting idea anyway, especially the story-telling part, hope the devs will see this.


2/4/2017 7:27:38 PM #7

That is some really impressive ideas, the amount of thought put into this is amazing. If gathering professions were this complex, I would have to play one!

I love this idea, especially the non repetitive game-play and the story telling. Adding in environmental factors and the level of skill you would have to use (to be one of the best loggers at least) would make every cutting trees every day fun. I would be trying every gathering profession just to get the story interaction out of it!

Thumbs up to each post explaining this idea, a wonderful concept!


2/4/2017 7:49:04 PM #8

I like where your are going with the idea Roader, but there are some changes I would like to propose.

  1. the equipment used should be a determining factor to potential danger. PPE is something that needs to be worn.

  2. Rather than have a weak spot analysis for potential danger, have an actual look at the tree to see if it leans or can knock other branches down during the process of falling. These subsequent branches may damage buildings or people in their way. Now on a reverse note, I do like the idea of weak spots, but these weak spots come from the tree being dead and are spots that can decrease the cutting time since they are not as wet and tough to cut. These are found by "Sounding Out" the tree. Hollow sounds rather than thick ones mean the tree has a dead spot. This could also be a mechanic for PC's to look for, does that tree have leaves? no? that one will take half the time to cut.

  3. The process of cutting isn't right. Cutting trees is about accurately cutting multiple wedges to define the direction and final product of the tree.

Your first cut is always going to be in the direction of where the tree will hopefully land. Your second cut determines how much wood is actually usable after the tree is cut. If you mess up this second cut, then half the tree trunk stays while the other half falls.

Both times can be dangerous due to the amount of pressure on the splintering of the tree. Without PPE, you may get shot by the splinters.

If we follow actual practices of tree-cutting, then we are able to continue these practices for new technologies.


2/4/2017 8:12:16 PM #9

Pff, just cut the damn tree with a sharp physical object like a butter knife

there's nothing hard about chopping a tree down, I haven't ever done it, but if the goal is to get that tree down on the ground, I'd burn it and leave it burning for a good 3 hours, then push it down


You may have erased my signature, but you can't corner the dorner

2/5/2017 4:00:07 AM #10

Posted By DrTank09 at 03:49 AM - Sun Feb 05 2017

I like where your are going with the idea Roader, but there are some changes I would like to propose.

  1. the equipment used should be a determining factor to potential danger. PPE is something that needs to be worn.

  2. Rather than have a weak spot analysis for potential danger, have an actual look at the tree to see if it leans or can knock other branches down during the process of falling. These subsequent branches may damage buildings or people in their way. Now on a reverse note, I do like the idea of weak spots, but these weak spots come from the tree being dead and are spots that can decrease the cutting time since they are not as wet and tough to cut. These are found by "Sounding Out" the tree. Hollow sounds rather than thick ones mean the tree has a dead spot. This could also be a mechanic for PC's to look for, does that tree have leaves? no? that one will take half the time to cut.

  3. The process of cutting isn't right. Cutting trees is about accurately cutting multiple wedges to define the direction and final product of the tree.

Your first cut is always going to be in the direction of where the tree will hopefully land. Your second cut determines how much wood is actually usable after the tree is cut. If you mess up this second cut, then half the tree trunk stays while the other half falls.

Both times can be dangerous due to the amount of pressure on the splintering of the tree. Without PPE, you may get shot by the splinters.

If we follow actual practices of tree-cutting, then we are able to continue these practices for new technologies.

That's the exact type of response I am looking for, someone who has some knowledge in real life tree logging.

1.

I just expect an axe as the equipment needed, what else equipment should we consider, armor? and would you mind elaborate more on what PPE is? (PPE just means property, plant & equipment on top of my head) : )

2.

Gotta admit the weakspot suggestion here is not that realistic. However, it is a way to make tree logging fun in the long run and give identity to each type of tree. We have to balance realistic design with fun design, right?

Removing branches and deciding where the tree will fall are definitely essential elements for tree logging. Kind of what I am hinting at as my third challenge.

I have also thought about "sounding out" the tree. The problem is presenting such thing in the game. The ideal way to implement it, in my mind, is to let the game play a different sound file when a player knock at the weakspot. However, that means SBS has to have sound files for different type of trees. I am afraid SBS do not have the resource to do so. The cheaper alternative, would be showing the sound pattern on a graph, and playing it using sound software. I doubt if it is easy to make the sound realistic enough using just software. As a result, I shy away from "sounding out", and propose "feeling out" with the lumberjack's hand.

3.

The process of cutting definitely needs a lot of improvement. Hope you can share more on this. I have no real life experience in cutting wood, I have only used saw. Can you point to us any diagrams or links that demonstrate how the second cut is performed in real life? I am also interested what a good second cut should look like? Should the game measure the angle used? the depth of the cut? or what? The splinters damage can be a mechanics in game to punish inexperienced players. Great!

4.

Translating the design to new technologies is a must for CoE. Without real life knowledge, it is hard for me to envision it. Hope you can share more on how tree cutting tools evolved and technique used correspondingly.

Your input is very valuable.


Never argue with an idiot, cuz he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Vice mayor of Lux Verloren

2/5/2017 4:18:08 AM #11

Sorry, I should have used the full term when mentioning it, PPE stands for Personal Protection Equipment. (10 years of DIY and rural retail stores as well as working with a landscaping company for most my life... family business)

  1. Leather chaps to protect the legs, gloves, chest equipment, and maybe even a leather cap or hood. A lot of modern day PPE is meant to protect from chain saws through the use of Kevlar, but we don't have to worry about that. I'm not actually all that worried about splintering shards causing minimal damage to players. It was just a first instinct that has been drilled into me.

  2. I have no suggestions on this point as my previous knowledge of what is and isn't possible to track is blown away by this game. I just wanted to throw some real life experience into the mix.

  3. To be honest, I've never cut the tree down, only ever watched videos and helped my dad when we had some tornados come through. We usually will piece it down until the trunk is to large to safely let fall to the ground. Here are two diagrams otherwise though.

https://bpracticalpottery.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/howtocut-diwn-a-tree-drawing.jpg

http://www.africanarcher.com/articles%20items/Cleve%20Cheney/Bushcraft4/Figure-3(small).jpg

and a website with more info

http://www.africanarcher.com/AXEcrft5.html

  1. I actually and not much capable for this. I know the techniques I was supposed to show customers, products to sell and inform them with, and modern technology but I am limited to past technologies.

In the Tudor era, large trees were rarely cut and mainly used for beams, usually farmers would use a sickle to hack at poles and then weave them for structure. This is my only other knowledge base as I've done some research into tudor monastic farming.


2/7/2017 3:54:20 PM #12
1.

Splinter does not necessary deal damage to hurt the player. It can consume stamina, or stun the player. Lowering efficiency of tree logging to punish player with poor knowledge.

2.

I guess I am just not good enough to come up with a way to utilize sound on top of my proposed search window.

3.

The second cut can be introduced to the game for sure. As stated in the linked article, the height difference between the first cut and second cut is critical in determining which side the tree will fall. This can be modeled in the game and allow different types of trees to further distinguish themselves from each other. This adds more content for those who specialize in cutting. Unfortunately, this does not solve to flaw of my design.

Let me explain. My proposal essentially require players to search for optimal angle for the cut (+the proper height for the second cut), and perform it perfectly to be a master tree logger. However, with the internet help, one tree master's knowledge on optimal angles (and height) can easily be spread to anyone. As a result, most tree loggers would be cutting tree with perfect knowledge, while trying to execute the cut perfectly. In the long run, players maybe either frustrated cuz they cannot execute perfectly, or get bored trying to do so. My proposed design need something more to constantly keep the players engage with the cutting process and react in a few different ways when situations occur. Too bad I have yet to figure out how ...... Hopefully, you can inspire me XD

4.

Having a tree logging system that is adaptive to the evolving technology is another big problem yet to be solved. Hmm... we need SBS's creativity to tackle it

Thanks for your input so far, I have definitely learnt more about tree logging.


Never argue with an idiot, cuz he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Vice mayor of Lux Verloren

2/8/2017 6:25:04 AM #13

That's the point of this game I think. Its to expand the player in one way or another. Personally I love to learn from accurate crafting and material processing.