COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
Licensing Combat from other games
-3

I will start off by pleading ignorance on video game development. That said I was wondering if it would be a smart move for CoE to license combat from another game.

Combat is an important feature for any MMORPG. If CoE were to license combat from one of the many games that focus primarily on combat, CoE would be able to better focus on the actual elements that make CoE unique in the MMORPG realm. It would instantly speed up the development of many of the game's aspects.

Mordhau would be a great candidate for combat due to its emphasis on realistic medieval warfare, sharing many of Caspian's vision for combat in CoE. It is also built on Unreal Engine 4, the same engine CoE is using. Granted, you would need the other games to agree to licensing :P

Thoughts?


4/21/2017 3:26:50 PM #31
+1

Examples of Combat Animation tied to movement:

Enemy Sword Skills in The Witcher 3

Absolver Gameplay

Street Fighter 5 Ryu Combo Video

Killing Spree - Dark Souls 3 PVP

All of these games have admirable combat that has been praised that I've played and loved (Absolver being the only unknown one to me though) and they're all example of combat that when pushing any attack will move your character.

@Grapefruitkush, as someone who has an image of a real suit of armor, I would have thought you'd appreciate the realism in attacking and moving. You never not move when you attack. Lunging while standing still would look silly.


4/21/2017 3:35:31 PM #32
+1

Posted By Grapefruitkush at 2:51 PM - Fri Apr 21 2017

Posted By Vucar at 6:02 PM - Thu Apr 20 2017

Animation locks and rooted melee combat are the fastest ways to ruin combat in CoE.

If you need any convincing, watch early Crowfall combat and tell me its still a good idea... There's a reason they abandoned that ship fast.

Exactly . Why the hell do people want to overcomplicate this system ? All you need is three directional attacks , left right and middle - then add three directional blocks . This system works well for any perspective and is skill based due to the hand eye coordination of needing to assess what attack your opponent is doing and providing the same block to block it .

To the people above that I didn't quote : Please stop suggesting that crappy "stand still to attack" bullshit - you're overthinking it too much and that would essentially ruin anyone's gameplay who doesn't choose to be some heavy warrior knight .

Add a directional based attack and block system , add a stamina system that is eaten up faster or slower dependent on what armor you have and also make it so the stamina regens slower when you have heavier armor and weapons on . This will naturally make heavy armor and weapon users weary of when they want to attack , while fast builds that use light armor and weapons will be Doing far less damage but will be able to move and attack swiftly .

Please don't ruin this game with terrible half baked combat systems based off of your love for weird gimmicky games like for honor or other crap fest combat games - skill based only comes in one flavor for open world MMOs , if there's no guns then all we need is a directional based attack and block system paired with a stamina system . The game combat shouldn't feel clunky and slow like for honor because this is an open world game , not some linear crappy arena game made for cheesy fights .

You're referring to Mortal Online's system, I'd dig it, would just be a way better MO at that point.


4/21/2017 4:12:09 PM #33
+0

Posted By Jouten at 08:26 AM - Fri Apr 21 2017

Examples of Combat Animation tied to movement:

Enemy Sword Skills in The Witcher 3

Absolver Gameplay

Street Fighter 5 Ryu Combo Video

Killing Spree - Dark Souls 3 PVP

All of these games have admirable combat that has been praised that I've played and loved (Absolver being the only unknown one to me though) and they're all example of combat that when pushing any attack will move your character.

In order:

-A single player game

-A dueling game

-A dueling game

-A dueling game

CoE is not going to be about duels. There will be skirmishes and sieges with dozens or hundreds of player characters that need a fluid and responsive combat style.

Borrowing ideas from games centered around single player combat and 1v1s for CoE's combat is like pointing to a bunch of apple trees and then yelling at your cactus to grow up and become an apple tree.

The comparison isn't even in the same ballpark.

If you want good pvp that will accommodate dozens or hundreds of players and still be enjoyable, fast, skill based and action focused, look at any of the original Darkfall siege videos.

4/21/2017 4:18:23 PM #34
+0

Posted By Vucar at 12:12 PM - Fri Apr 21 2017

CoE is not going to be about duels. There will be skirmishes and sieges with dozens or hundreds of player characters that need a fluid and responsive combat style

While this is a good point, having movement and attacks be independent of each other doesn't necessarily lend itself any better to tactical group combat. Having grounded, attack-tied movement actually encourages people to use formations in battle.

I tried to watch some Darkfall siege videos but it looks like an entirely different style of combat. The combat appears to be ability based and there are spells flying everywhere. Also, the players are moving around like crazy. While it looks like there is a frontline they have no formation whatsoever as far as I can tell.

EDIT: I went to research some examples of similar games that do large scale combat. Black Desert Online can have massive battles and the combat in that is animation based. Granted, players are still flying all over the place but the point remains - animation-based combat can function fine even in large scale battles.


4/21/2017 4:21:44 PM #35
+0

"Licensing Combat from other games"

Now CoE have bought/licensed SpartialOS which helps them immensely, SpartialOS is something made for that purpose.

The games you're all nameing etc. are owned by studios, who's advertising revolves partly around the combat too, so for them to sell of the combat mechanics would be the most stupid thing a studio could do.

It's like people forget that mount and blades warband (one of the examples) are soon releasing Bannerlords, and guess what they're selling their game on? a few things + Combat, where combat is the pain pull for this game. Giving their core mechanic away for a bit of money to someone else is the most stupidest thing to do, almost always, unless the game is outdated and such, but even there we know from francises (like the ones who bought Harry Potter) that they won't sell our license it to other companies because having the full authority over a title/mechanic is very profitable. It's not what will make most people happy, but it's all about profit.

So I see this very (extremely) unlikely.


The Fairy Queen

4/21/2017 4:43:17 PM #36
+0

Agree Vucar.

I agree that Darkfall should be a reference to where the combat should head. You only can create better ideas by improving on the ones that have worked in the past.

There are a bunch of games out there in development that focus on large scale combat. I just thought Mordhau has the best design, research, and product out of all.


4/21/2017 4:49:53 PM #37
+0

Posted By Vucar at 12:12 PM - Fri Apr 21 2017

Borrowing ideas from games centered around single player combat and 1v1s for CoE's combat is like pointing to a bunch of apple trees and then yelling at your cactus to grow up and become an apple tree.

The comparison isn't even in the same ballpark.

If you want good pvp that will accommodate dozens or hundreds of players and still be enjoyable, fast, skill based and action focused, look at any of the original Darkfall siege videos.

The combat in Darkfall are hotkey/skill key based with left click spamming. You can hit a wide array of enemies with those, yes, but it becomes floaty and lifeless and ends up being a slowed down Unreal Tournament. Those "dueling" games I mentioned were meant to show that combat animation can fluidly work with movement if done correctly, not to directly rip the combat off of those games. (Btw, you can fight more than 1 person at a time in Dark Souls so....not so much dueling in a 1v1 sense)

I'm going to assume you've seen the Silver Run Mine video. We all know that the combat in there is a placeholder, but does the general feel of the combat in there show a separation of attack and movement? Souzou even mentions that getting jumped by more than 2 people will end with you losing and you're probably gonna "get messed up". They've already stated they're shooting for a fighting game vibe and have quoted to be slightly inspired by DarkSouls. Those comments have drawn a lot of people into this game, me included, and I doubt they'll change that direction.

So yes, I am yelling at a bunch of apple trees, specifically hoping to make them into Fuji apples, but I can settle with Granny Smith apples.

Also, segwaying this back to the OP, I doubt they can license the combat from another company. I'd much rather CoE have it's own combat that's inspired by other games and add their own twist to it.


4/21/2017 4:59:27 PM #38
+0

Posted By Jouten at 12:49 PM - Fri Apr 21 2017

We all know that the combat in there is a placeholder, but does the general feel of the combat in there show a separation of attack and movement? They've already stated they're shooting for a fighting game vibe and have quoted to be slightly inspired by DarkSouls. Those comments have drawn a lot of people into this game, me included, and I doubt they'll change that direction.

This is what I've been trying to say. We already know more or less what they intend to do. While it could change, I don't think it should, as animations tied to movement work quite well and allow you to do all sorts of things with the attacks. As I said, it seems to work for BDO even in large battles.


4/21/2017 5:19:07 PM #39
+0

Posted By Jouten at 09:49 AM - Fri Apr 21 2017

The combat in Darkfall are hotkey/skill key based with left click spamming. You can hit a wide array of enemies with those, yes, but it becomes floaty and lifeless and ends up being a slowed down Unreal Tournament.

So you've clearly never played Darkfall or you'd know that left click spamming would just tire you out and get you killed. That, or you played and quit before learning this lesson. Of all the mmos i've pvped in, Darkfall is the last I would call "slow" compared to anything.

The split-motion combat of darkfall is easy to learn and hard to master. It inherently has a high skill ceiling because the separation of movement from attack allows for a wide variety of possible scenarios. The only people who use the terms "floaty" to describe combat in games like darkfall are people who can't or won't learn how to get good at tracking fast moving enemies. For the rest of us, we just call it "engaging".

Posted By Jouten at 09:49 AM - Fri Apr 21 2017

Those "dueling" games I mentioned were meant to show that combat animation can fluidly work with movement if done correctly, not to directly rip the combat off of those games. (Btw, you can fight more than 1 person at a time in Dark Souls so....not so much dueling in a 1v1 sense)

Yes. Combat animation can fluidly work with movement in games limited to 3v3s or 4v4s. These are match set ups. Very few things are going on besides these small duels or group fights. This is not a translatable experience to something like a siege or even a large scale skirmish in a sandbox mmo.

Posted By Jouten at 09:49 AM - Fri Apr 21 2017

I'm going to assume you've seen the Silver Run Mine video. We all know that the combat in there is a placeholder, but does the general feel of the combat in there show a separation of attack and movement? Souzou even mentions that getting jumped by more than 2 people is suicidal. They've already stated they're shooting for a fighting game vibe and have quoted to be slightly inspired by DarkSouls. Those comments have drawn a lot of people into this game, me included, and I doubt they'll change that direction.

Multiple devs have stated multiple times that combat is getting a complete revamp. Pointing to that demo and saying "look, this is the direction they're going in, get used to it" is not realistic and you know it.

4/21/2017 5:23:25 PM #40
+0

Posted By Vucar at 1:19 PM - Fri Apr 21 2017

Yes. Combat animation can fluidly work with movement in games limited to 3v3s or 4v4s. These are match set ups. Very few things are going on besides these small duels or group fights. This is not a translatable experience to something like a siege or even a large scale skirmish in a sandbox mmo.

...except for the fact that, as I stated already, black desert online has exactly this type of combat and can have battles with hundreds of people. Not that I think the game should be like BDO but the point is that animation based attacks can work just fine with many people.

Simply stating "this can't work" repeatedly doesn't make it true.


4/21/2017 5:27:07 PM #41
+0

Posted By Vucar at 1:19 PM - Fri Apr 21 2017

Multiple devs have stated multiple times that combat is getting a complete revamp. Pointing to that demo and saying "look, this is the direction they're going in, get used to it" is not realistic and you know it.

So you're going to completely disregard what kind of intent they're going to go for? Where he clearly says, getting jumped by 3 or 4 is something to walk away from?

You're hoping for them to go for your Darkfall combat. Go ahead. All their tech demos point to these duels with animation locks tied to combat movement. They could have easily set up a split animation in those tech demos, but they went for full animation, thrust, slice and shield bash. So setting up the assumption they're going for the Darkfall style of mass PvP action "is not realistic and you know it."


4/21/2017 6:04:50 PM #42
+0

Posted By Jouten at 10:27 AM - Fri Apr 21 2017

Posted By Vucar at 1:19 PM - Fri Apr 21 2017

Multiple devs have stated multiple times that combat is getting a complete revamp. Pointing to that demo and saying "look, this is the direction they're going in, get used to it" is not realistic and you know it.

So you're going to completely disregard what kind of intent they're going to go for? Where he clearly says, getting jumped by 3 or 4 is something to walk away from?

You're hoping for them to go for your Darkfall combat. Go ahead. All their tech demos point to these duels with animation locks tied to combat movement. They could have easily set up a split animation in those tech demos, but they went for full animation, thrust, slice and shield bash. So setting up the assumption they're going for the Darkfall style of mass PvP action "is not realistic and you know it."

Crowfall started out with animation locks on melee combat too. After massive outcry and universal hatred of it, they got rid of it and went to split motion melee. Its a lesson they learned the hard way that CoE could learn the easy way, so yes, I am hoping they skip to the part where they trash this terrible idea.

Posted By MReal at 10:23 AM - Fri Apr 21 2017

Posted By Vucar at 1:19 PM - Fri Apr 21 2017

Yes. Combat animation can fluidly work with movement in games limited to 3v3s or 4v4s. These are match set ups. Very few things are going on besides these small duels or group fights. This is not a translatable experience to something like a siege or even a large scale skirmish in a sandbox mmo.

...except for the fact that, as I stated already, black desert online has exactly this type of combat and can have battles with hundreds of people. Not that I think the game should be like BDO but the point is that animation based attacks can work just fine with many people.

Simply stating "this can't work" repeatedly doesn't make it true.

I've played BDO as well. I won't even say the combat isn't good or enjoyable. Its fluid and fast and yes, it can accommodate a large number of player actors, but you're missing a critical element of why this works in BDO.

Black Desert Online has no friendly fire

You can spam wide-arcing attacks and massive aoe field magic and never have to consider your friends. It makes the entire discussion of animation lock vs free-motion combat moot because all of the psychology of how you approach pvp changes when you clump up into a ball of friendlies and enemies and suddenly you can hurt both.

We had this discussion on the Crowfall forums as well. When animation lock was still a thing, you'd get big balls of melee archetypes hammering it out while support casters threw heals into the mob. It didn't matter that no one could move or had to think about being stuck while attacking because their attacks could only harm enemies and their heals could only benefit friendlies.

Like i said before: Crowfall has gone through all of the pains of developing action combat that CoE can bypass simply by avoiding a repeat of history. Their combat systems are not meant to be the same -- I know this. That doesn't mean there aren't lessons to be learned.

4/21/2017 6:14:22 PM #43
+0

I'm really not following the logic here. It works in BDO because there's no friendly fire but it doesn't work in Crowfall even though it also has no friendly fire?

Seeing as there won't generally be the same kinds of AoE in CoE (heh), I don't see why the friendly fire would be an issue. Presumably if people are clumping together in a shield wall then they won't use big swinging attacks. There aren't exactly any magical heals that we know of so I don't see that problem either.


4/21/2017 6:24:39 PM #44
+0

Black Desert Online has no friendly fire

good point here i think in a game where friendly fire is on it makes sense to make the combat more precise i hope they find something that makes large scale combat possible cause from the demo the current combat is not suitable in large scale battle well if you dont mind cutting your friends back by accident. XD


" Death is only the beginning ! "

Friend Code: 488BBA

4/21/2017 6:30:05 PM #45
+0

Yeah it seems like your combat proposal is with the assumptions magic will be abundant and a war hammer should be plowing through five enemies at the same time if I move in one direction and do one sweeping ark. That's not going for the realistic survival vibe CoE is shooting for and looks more cartoony and over the top. Hell, even Gloria Victis is trying to go the route of the split animation combat and it's still funky. Where are my lunges? Where are my passing cuts? If you want to get technical, performing a nachreisen is damn well impossible because you can't step into (or away) from your opponent out of tempo because you're all moving at the same pace and instead you're just focusing on blocking the attack.

EDIT: also because you go into a big battlefield doesn't mean how you stab a person changes, as in you don't suddenly start making large sweeping motions. Instead you're more confined and making tighter attacks as a unit. Running into the battlefield swinging like a dingus won't amount to anything, especially since dying takes away from our game time.


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