COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
This is my fantasy game made real - some thoughts

Hi All,

I was floored to learn about this game today. I spent the better part of the day devouring the dev journals and reading up on the planned features.

I have to say, I am really excited. I'm a veteran of Ultima Online and EVE Online, and a student of medieval and early modern European history. I love Crusader Kings 2 and always thought that a feudal dynasty simulator like CK2 combined with an MMO setting like EVE/Ultima would be the ultimate MMO. I often thought about how a dynastic system in a feudal MMO could be a really innovative reinvention of the MMO genre.

I've grown to hate the MMO genre for being a wasted potential - I loved Ultima Online for its immersive world of particular towns, item system, and deep potential for roleplay. I loved running around in UO, meeting different player groups and roleplaying. For some reason that game really engaged my imagination in a way no other MMO ever did. I love EVE Online for the the player politics, economy, and long-range goals of market/political domination combined with mass war fleet battles and drama. I ran my own corp for awhile and played the regional market (I play casually in Pandemic Horde now) - so I am attracted to games that allow me to set long-term strategic goals, build relationships with players and organizations, and become a pillar in the community.

This game? It combines these two desires in the very way I always fantasized. I have given up on the MMO genre on just being an awful hamster-wheel grindfest that I despise, and thought such a game would never come to pass. A massively online low-fantasy, feudal society simulator with dynastic family-line play, connecting marriage, property, offspring, and politics all together with players as been the GAME OF MY DREAMS.

That being said, I am used to having my best hopes crushed by failed-to-developed MMOs in the past. So I take this game with a grain of salt. It'll probably be my last hope in seeing anything truly innovative come out of the MMO genre.

As much as I like the proposed feature list, I am a bit skeptical about some of the proposals. I think the ability to break contracts or breaking into people's homes or impersonating them is a too unrealistic, impractical, and overly ambitious. I think an automatic escrow system for contracts is much better. If one gives some structural guarantees to players, the areas of possible gameplay expand dramatically. The existence of risk of betraying contracts and promises with no automatic, built-in consequences will probably severely limit interaction to a core group of trusted players who live in the same town. Same goes with break-ins and impersonation - such possibilities will probably lead to the development of walled cities with controlled access to outsiders. If you want to encourage broader interaction between players and communities, implementing automatic consequences to breaking agreements or committing crimes will help do that.

I think the "put players in prison" feature is a really bad one, especially for innocent, "framed" players. Nobody likes spending their real-money bought time in internet jail.

For example in EVE's contract system, if you fail to fulfill a contract or lose the cargo, the collateral you put up to accept the contract is automatically transferred to the contract issuer. This allows commerce and transactions to take place on a wider, more anonymous level. If this was no automatically enforced by the game, contracts would probably be way more restricted as interaction between trusted and known corpmates.

In general, I feel there may be a little naivete and over-ambition about the scope of what players can do in this game. Never underestimate players' ability to bend the rules to wreck havoc and grief. A good game design gives the minimal safeguards and security that encourage and broaden interaction, bad ones leads to the "Hobbesian wasteland" survival MMOs you see today on Steam where its just hostile tribes of players living in their isolated fort at war with everyone else. EVE, which is quite a brutal game with a ruthless playerbase, has built a game structure that allows for interaction and more advanced structures to grow. Without that, it wouldn't be the game it is today.

That being said, I think the devs seem to have a good idea about creating the structure of security to encourage economic, social, and political interaction through the hierarchy of noble titles. The dynastic politics gives a good frame to shape the PVP and player conflict in the world. I'm really excited about this.

Some things that I think are really cool:

First, the aging system makes it young, in their prime, fighting men a valuable commodity for armies and kings. Players who are fighters in their prime could expect to fetch a good price for their sword-arm either from ambitious nobles or in mercenary companies. Life itself is a valuable commodity that deserves a price for its use.

Second, I love the idea of randomly distributed talents. Imagine some really powerful magic talent that some players have, so they organized into a Mage's Guild and require that all players who have this talent must join the organization, so they hold a monopoly over this power. Such a guild could then sell their services to highest bidder. Such a power could be feared and hated by other players, but become an important political actor. Players with the talent who refuse to join would be labeled renegades, wild wizards, and hunted down to extinction by the guild.

What I love about all this is that it makes roleplay not a contrived activity. You ARE your character. You have real, tangible interests and you'll act accordingly. (This is what I like about EVE) The world has real consequences, therefore it brings real interests, drama, and action to the world and your character.

My aspirations in this game:

I'll probably play as an urban merchant who is very involved in the politics and the affairs of my city. I would like to become a prominent citizen who owns many enterprises, properties, and land. I would like to open trade routes and develop trading contacts across regions. I would gradually let mature, ambitious players enter my family to expand a commercial empire - creating links between different cities and expanding my family's political and economic influence within them. I would serve on the town council, or serve as a scribe or adviser to my liege. My ambition one day is to rise to become a Mayor as a prominent urban patrician of a major city. Of course I am not a total carebear, I will ruthlessly crush my enemies through others, pay players to do the fighting. When I am rich and powerful enough, I will sponsor the construction of a great cathedral for the city in order to immortalize the place of my name and dynasty. The body of my character and his descendants will forever be laid to rest in the magnificent crypt underneath the impressive towering cathedral that dominates the city's skyline and renders other players in awe of its eternal glory - reminded that it was built by the affluence and influence of the Beauvais family.

I'm going to hold off from buying influence points or title from the store for two reasons. First, I want to really see this game actually materialize and be real. Secondly, I have a feeling that once it indeed gets released - there will be a lot of ambitious new groups of players who will rapidly dethrone the ones who bought titles - causing much anguish and gnashing of teeth. The better organized, smart, ruthless and committed will prevail. Better to start small and gradually climb the game's shifting political power structure.

Anyways, that's all for now! I am cautiously optimistic!


4/27/2017 9:33:34 PM #1

Welcome to the CoE 'cautiously optimistic' community Beauvais! You seem to be thinking along the same lines as most of us since, yes, the MMO genre is lacking. Severely.

We all hope CoE could be our home away from home for many years to come.


4/27/2017 9:35:55 PM #2

Welcome buddy.

By the way, there will be a Q&A in a couple of hours.


4/27/2017 9:37:41 PM #3

Welcome Beauvais you will find a great community here at CoE.

4/27/2017 9:39:53 PM #4

I'll type up one of my infamous 'need-to-condense' responses later since preparations for today's Q&A in an hour and a half are underway, but I just wanted to pop by and bestow upon you a warm welcome into our community!


4/27/2017 9:51:51 PM #5

Thank you for the replies! Scrolling through the threads, it seems like the mentality of people here are similiar to mine. There is hope! :)


4/27/2017 10:13:01 PM #6

I make most of your words my own. Found out about this game today since i was looking up new games because of a wave of nostalgia that swept over me from the mmo's i played 5-10 years ago. Really hoping everything goes right with this one. It's looking like an absolutely brilliant project.


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4/27/2017 10:46:42 PM #7

We all are here to support the ideas of SBS, if they can come to fruition I think this will be the revolutionary game we all dream of. But for this to happen SBS need support, and every new person who joins the community is more motivation for SBS to make the game of their dreams. So without pledging you are already helping! I hope you feel at home here. It's a lovely community!


4/27/2017 11:07:56 PM #8

tl;dr Im currently backing this game arround 1 year ago. And didnt regret it.


4/28/2017 12:38:13 AM #9

Never underestimate players' ability to bend the rules to wreak havoc and grief. A good game design gives the minimal safeguards and security that encourage and broaden interaction, bad ones leads to the "Hobbesian wasteland" survival MMOs you see today on Steam where its just hostile tribes of players living in their isolated fort at war with everyone else.

Just wanted to underline this bit.


4/28/2017 2:20:45 AM #10

Welcome to the community!

As a fan of UO I wish to thank you for your input. Your iseas and thoughts are very well thought out, reasonable and concise. I started in UO and very few games rivalled the longevity UO had for me. I do agree more recent MMOs lack the depth and that charisma that keeps you coming back for more. They are very superficial and are just repetitive, just offering a different atmosphere and alternative graphics to make them seem original at first glance.

I joined the community last year and have watching CoE develop and am cautiously optimistic as well. It does encompass everything I have been longing to see in an MMO, and I do hope it comes into fruition.

Again welcome and thanks for your thoughts!


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4/28/2017 2:28:08 AM #11

welcome to the rabbit hole alice...


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4/28/2017 6:23:45 AM #12

Welcome to CoE.

I share some concerns about the disguise system, but it all depends how effective it is. As long as it's not broken, should be fine ;)

Regarding prisons though I will point out that prison time isn't RL time. It's simulated ;) I do suspect if disguises are abused there will be a lot of investigator/vigilante types around lol.


4/28/2017 6:56:50 AM #13

Hey welcome to the community.


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4/28/2017 1:54:20 PM #14

Thanks all.

An additional note: What I like is that given the heavy roleplay and stylistic element of the game - houses, clothes, families, etc. PVP is not the end goal and be-all of the game. For example, in EVE the player economy is a complex eco-system whose end result in PVP. Miners are the bottom feeders who mine ore and sell it to manufacturers, who build ships and modules which are then sold to PvPers, who get blown up - adding more demand to the system.

This game? Its centered around family. You must secure the future of your family line, protect property and wealth, and expand it. PVP is a big part of the game, but its not the raison d'etre of the game's momentum and activity. Its about building your dynasty, constructing and running cities, building a cool dynasty home, etc.

I'm really excited by the idea.


4/28/2017 3:19:59 PM #15

thst's nice, i sort of feel the same way too


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