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Some advice on the latest horse model V2 - Animations!

In the recent mount animation video on mount animations. for a pre-alpha animation, this is amazing. I would like to offer my thoughts on how it might be even better, but I do not wish in any way to detract from the work currently done on the animations of the horse.

I appreciate the effort into getting the mount animations right as mounts and transportation in general is crucial in Elyria and as such getting the horse animation right will enhance immersive gameplay. SBS obviously has skilled animators, so in order to push this animation “to the next level” I would like to offer my experience and knowledge to help the developers fine tune the animations. For those who don’t know me, I studied Applied Equine Welfare and Management at Uni, and the horse I ride - Shannon approves this message.

Shannon

The main thing I noticed was that the animations seemed choppy and almost like a Western Pino Faso type gaits and not the usual gaits (walk, trot and canter) from other much more commonly used horse breeds.

Here is an example of how actual gaits work in the vast majority of horse breeds (there are a few exceptions but they are that, exceptions I say this because I saw the trot in the horse was not really correct, the horse lifts its legs upwards into it’s chest instead of gliding outwards. That can be trained into the horse but it is a high-level dressage movement and not something the vast majority of horses would do. .

Another thing I noticed was that during the canter sequence the horse leads from the right leg (as in the right front leg is first leg to move) when going left, that would most likely cause the horse to trip over. It would be better if the rider was putting the horse on the correct leg using the inside leg (the leg in this case being the left one) and moving it backwards a little bit to tell the horse to lead from that leg as you are changing the leg in which the horse leads from.

Subtly, the head barely moves. Bio-mechanically the horse’s head moves as it travels that is why when you ride the horse you have to allow the head to move.

And finally I feel the tail is wrong, it should not be swirling like a helicopter, the horse moves it’s tail to clear flies and communicate that it is in pain and can be a bad habit for the horse.

Why does all this matter, given the animations look way better than nearly any other horse in any other MMO? This is important as we the players might be spending a lot of time on mounts so having a strong set of animations for the horse that are technically correct will enhance the believability of the world. The details are subtle - horse leading from the correct leg, rider position moving, including the leg movements of the riders, but as SBS obviously has the talented animators to be able to pull it off, it seems timely to point out those subtleties.

Oh and just to be clear … that Trison. We’ve had a chat about that animation … bravo. That’s all there is to say about it! Amazingly good work, and that hand … didn’t expect that to be so good at this point! - Lady Grace

To summarise:

>Front legs disconnected at Trot

>Horse Leading from wrong leg at canter

>Overall horse movement seems very similar to Pino Faso (thank you Epabberi for pointing that out), a more normal gait would be better

>Head barely moves (ought to move more)

>Tail movement.

To everyone else reading this - did you spot something that could be even better?

Contributors;

Lady Grace

Epaberri

Rubaiyate

To contribute to future publications please join the Chronicles of Equine discord - here

Till next time - Horse Lord Varuian Maulvorn


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7/27/2017 3:12:31 PM #1

Posted By Maulvorn at

To summarise:

Front legs disconnected at Trot

Horse Leading from wrong leg at canter

Overall horse movement seems very similar to Pino Faso (thank you Epabberi for pointing that out), a more normal gait would be better

Head barely moves (ought to move more)

Tail movement.

To everyone else reading this - did you spot something that could be even better?

Contributors;

Lady Grace

Epaberri

Rubaiyate

To contribute to future publications please join the Chronicles of Equine discord - here

Till next time - Horse Lord Varuian Maulvorn

I am no equine expert, although I have some experience, having ridden, agisted and had a couple of foals born on our property. Not going to try and enter the technical talk, although I can relate to the posture pic.

There were two things that stood out to me when I first saw the clip - gait and tail. The gait at gallop (am I confusing this with a canter? The speed and rider posture suggests a gallop to me) seems 'clipped' (for wont of a better descriptor). My experience has the horse's legs reaching out further during a gallop (does this relate to the Pino Faso reference?). The most bothersome for me was the tail movement.

Having said that, knowing the basics have been laid down I suspect it should be relatively(!) easy to tweak in further iterations.


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7/27/2017 3:15:54 PM #2

I have to admit, the swirling helicopter tail was a bit annoying, in the sense that it's all my eyes kept going back to cos I was like, "wth is that tail spinning all the time for" lol


7/27/2017 3:19:40 PM #3

I know next to nothing about horses but still respect them and those that care for these wonderful beasts.

+1 for coptertail being annoying

I think it's something they will iterate on. Maybe instead of one looped annimation they have three to choose from; whips to left\right\up. Then they can tailor those to slight\heavy movement adjustments you make while riding.


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7/27/2017 3:21:46 PM #4

Posted By Nitt at 4:12 PM - Thu Jul 27 2017

Posted By Maulvorn at

To summarise:

Front legs disconnected at Trot

Horse Leading from wrong leg at canter

Overall horse movement seems very similar to Pino Faso (thank you Epabberi for pointing that out), a more normal gait would be better

Head barely moves (ought to move more)

Tail movement.

To everyone else reading this - did you spot something that could be even better?

Contributors;

Lady Grace

Epaberri

Rubaiyate

To contribute to future publications please join the Chronicles of Equine discord - here

Till next time - Horse Lord Varuian Maulvorn

I am no equine expert, although I have some experience, having ridden, agisted and had a couple of foals born on our property. Not going to try and enter the technical talk, although I can relate to the posture pic.

There were two things that stood out to me when I first saw the clip - gait and tail. The gait at gallop (am I confusing this with a canter? The speed and rider posture suggests a gallop to me) seems 'clipped' (for wont of a better descriptor). My experience has the horse's legs reaching out further during a gallop (does this relate to the Pino Faso reference?). The most bothersome for me was the tail movement.

Having said that, knowing the basics have been laid down I suspect it should be relatively(!) easy to tweak in further iterations.

Indeed the Gait (the way the horse moves) was a bit out of whack.


7/27/2017 3:26:15 PM #5

Posted By YouthfulAssasin at 4:19 PM - Thu Jul 27 2017

I know next to nothing about horses but still respect them and those that care for these wonderful beasts.

+1 for coptertail being annoying

thank you very much.


7/27/2017 8:21:00 PM #6

Nice work. I'm a total newb when it comes to the hows and whys, but I could tell something looked a little off while watching the mounted videos.

The tail was clearly out of control and helicoptered more than swishing, which is what I would expect from watching a running horse. Even then the tail should be most effected by wind and the running speed of the horse without appearing to move unnaturally and jarringly, which the current tail animation does.

Loads and loads of time to get things right, though. Hopefully the developers notice the things you and a handful of other equine-handy players are noticing and make a few tweaks.


7/27/2017 8:45:00 PM #7

Posted By Faendra at 9:21 PM - Thu Jul 27 2017

Nice work. I'm a total newb when it comes to the hows and whys, but I could tell something looked a little off while watching the mounted videos.

The tail was clearly out of control and helicoptered more than swishing, which is what I would expect from watching a running horse. Even then the tail should be most effected by wind and the running speed of the horse without appearing to move unnaturally and jarringly, which the current tail animation does.

Loads and loads of time to get things right, though. Hopefully the developers notice the things you and a handful of other equine-handy players are noticing and make a few tweaks.

Indeed, the horse doesn't swoosh it's tail often when cantering.


7/27/2017 8:55:17 PM #8

Re: the helicopter tail, Caspian said that things on Elyria evolved differently. My guess is that horses on Elyria have evolved that behavior to help aid with improved forward locomotion. My preliminary calculations indicate that the whirlyfied tail motion adds at least 3 horsepower of speed.

7/27/2017 8:58:49 PM #9

I think this is a good thread and I hope it gets the dev's attention.

The horse animation I saw was Very good. Bravo. It's 97% there.

It's just that the other 3% is the difference between a bullseye and the horse moving as if it has an injury.

You guys should REALLY pat yourselves on the back for doing such a good job that a minor tweak in the wrong direction is reminiscent of such realistic outcome (roto-tail notwithstanding.)

Game development getting pretty exciting isn't it?


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7/27/2017 9:17:22 PM #10

I noticed that the riders movement was also very stiff in the arms (shoulders and elbows usually move a little bit more not sure how much armor would affect these movements), and the movement of the character bouncing up and down was a little too subtle. Other than that SBS is doing a great job hopefully if they are willing to fix these issues it won't take up too much time.


7/27/2017 9:41:49 PM #11

Horse Animation in Video | Feedback for Devs

By: Jongatown

Please, please, please, redo the animation of the horse's tail when running. It spins around like a propeller and looks anything but natural. If anything the tail should be rigidly erect (yes, phrasing) with the tailing hair blowing back. Watching the video, I am half expecting the horse to take off like an airplane.

I offer this as constructive criticism, I'm not bitching. It is pre-alpha footage, so please put that on the never-ending list of tweaks before we get to a playable version.

Everything else looks awesome, btw.


Merged from another thread

P.S. Thank you all for your feedback!


7/27/2017 10:07:03 PM #12

Posted By Caeoltoiri at 10:41 PM - Thu Jul 27 2017

Horse Animation in Video | Feedback for Devs

By: Jongatown

Please, please, please, redo the animation of the horse's tail when running. It spins around like a propeller and looks anything but natural. If anything the tail should be rigidly erect (yes, phrasing) with the tailing hair blowing back. Watching the video, I am half expecting the horse to take off like an airplane.

I offer this as constructive criticism, I'm not bitching. It is pre-alpha footage, so please put that on the never-ending list of tweaks before we get to a playable version.

Everything else looks awesome, btw.


Merged from another thread

P.S. Thank you all for your feedback!

A horse's tail goes rigid when it is scared or excited, it is an important part of the horse's body language.


7/27/2017 10:08:04 PM #13

Posted By Teland at 9:55 PM - Thu Jul 27 2017

Re: the helicopter tail, Caspian said that things on Elyria evolved differently. My guess is that horses on Elyria have evolved that behavior to help aid with improved forward locomotion. My preliminary calculations indicate that the whirlyfied tail motion adds at least 3 horsepower of speed.

I know you are joking but I would like to say on the matter that having things different for the sake of being different is detrimental if it doesn't make sense.


7/27/2017 11:47:30 PM #14

If horses could talk ... (I'm likely to be wrong but hey)...

Left to right ...

"Oh. A train. So what?" "Neat! what's that I'm gonna go look" "I'm outta here!" "Me first" "You lot wait there, I'm following her." "Wait for me!" "Hey what are we doing again?"

What is the point of this photo?

The point is to remind SBS that variety and depth in animations, if they have the time (i.e. budget), is incredibly important to a group of horses looking real.

A fantastic animation of one horse is brilliant, but players don't typically play MMOs to be alone - so horses will quickly appear in groups. One rider is valuable, one unit of cavalry is deadly.

Ears and head position communicate a lot as well, but there is only so much time and complexity a single critter should get, after all this isn't My Horse and Me. Just on that, the simple fact that game not only exists but did well enough to merit a sequel highlights how important "just riding a horse" can be to a bunch of players. If your horses can also jump, and we can place obstacles to jump, then I fully expect players to make cross country courses - and to breed horses in-game to try to get the best one. Also jumping should require a riding roll .. and critical fail? Weeeeeeeeee thud with horse looking at you "what are you doing?"

Also those fancy Dressage moves? Those were originally cavalry moves. Most games simply stop at forward, back, and turn (pivot on center spline or curve left or right) for horses. While there is no need to have everything, cavalry gameplay would be a lot more fun with some form of lateral movement. You wouldn't use that in a joust, but you would setting up a cavalry formation ...

In terms of where to put a finite amount of animation resource, I would suggest legs (gait), tail, and head position, with perhaps two or three ear animations. Many players rather obviously want to have armour all over their mounts (whether comparisons or plate), so things like horse breathing (while important) may actually be largely obscured by other art so might not be worth adding anything beyond one non-varying animation.

Why the ears? If a rider is on a horse in-game, having its head come up and ears start swiveling would be a great hint to the player that their horse has heard something. It would be super realistic, immersive, and plain fun to see in a game. Unless of course you have the horse that goes "neat, a train? I want to go have a look ..."


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7/28/2017 2:19:00 AM #15

Animators are looking at their workload like....

How am I going to finish this...

Really cool insights though


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