COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
The OP nature of magic
-9

If you haven't seen it yet you should check out the magic teaser (or talent teaser) on imgur.

What are your thoughts on its devistation in the context of potentially never getting a chance to use such powers based on random chance luck?

If anyone could repost the link I have not the influence to do so yet.

Personally it seems almost troubling that you would have to go up against a single person with those powers with melee or ranged melee in the first place let alone multiple persons or potential power guilds of such people. It almost creates a suspension of disbelief seeing it. Now I realize it is probably showcasing what it can do but still.

Anyways, What are your thoughts?


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8/11/2017 2:51:48 AM #46
+1

Posted By RedAngel at 10:52 AM - Wed Aug 09 2017

I don't have to like it since it is not my game to destroy. I can voice my opinion as much as I want which is my right. You can white knight this topic all you want too which is your choice.

Likewise you shouldn't make assumptions that just because you like this sort of thing that it wont be a turn off for a larger audience that likes the use of free magic that would otherwise make this game more palletable to a larger audience who does.

They are bad decisions. Magic is the draw to fantasy. But holding it back from everyone does not make for a good system. That is what draws people into fantasy. It is what fantasy is. Low or otherwise.

And Caspian an co has said quite a lot about it. Especially in his comments in the Q&A vids he does when he answer those types of questions.

One particular example used was just that. Your size of your character will change or look funny, you might get a unique hair color, your stats will merge somewhat, and make you more hardy to the climates of the tribes you mix. Now if you take that a step further you can then add other tribes in. You can also get better rolls on your stats potentially to at birth.

He has also spoken about dna and genetics playing an important role later in the game when it is discovered which was there all along but nobody knew about.

He also spoke about mutations in genetics whatever that means but he did say something about unique hair colors.

But the thing is they have boxed themselves into a corner when it comes to what goes into genetics already if you cant pass on things like magic.

Or now that you only get a lifetime to figure it out and the fact that they said that it will take more then a lifetime to find out what it was. So that even lessens the chance that not only that you might not have one but that you might not ever even get to use it. Or if you do the game will make sure it wont last long anyways with the fame you will certainly have.

Most of all I do not even see the harm in allowing people to pass on magic to their offspring. Every time you mix two parents there are traits that are recessive or dominant. Magic could be mostly recessive anyway in terms that it could turn on in the first place. The second thing is the fact that even though it is devistatingly strong when it is pure it would lose power with each generation until it is useless and fades away anyways over 5-10 generations.

Plus you would almost never have the opportunity to find someone who had the same talent to keep it as strong and as pure. Every generation weakens the power of it.

All the while you could argue that that you could easily off these bloodlines to end the talents or you can preserve them which could spread in a given area for short brief periods of time and fade out.

Magic could even be against the law if it bothers people that much that anyone could have magic.

The very idea of having genetics and bloodlines is to preserve those traits. But we arent even given the choice. Whereas everything else in this game is based on skills and player aptitude magic is somehow off the table.

And that is a terrible choice since you dont even have one.

Dude, you ARE making talents assumptions, saying things like "I'm dissapoint cus magic is too OP cus you can meteor rain down the earth" which you just based your opinion in an artwork (Sriously?), there's even information about talents, and people have already told you how it works but you keep making assumptions about the game. Also you are saying that "free magic" would make the game more appealing to everyone, but looks like everyone likes the system they have but you.

For your date of joining, I suspect you still have to read plenty of CoE information, because so far, you are making up things which haven't been stated anywhere.

However I wouldn't care if talents/magic is heritable, as long as it is really really hard to master or even learn it.

Personally I don't have a problem with the talents system, in fact I really like it and I doubt it will change, and I hope it doesn't, because it is really cool the way it is right now.

And if Caspian made the talents/magic system, or whatever you want to call it, the way it is, it's because important reasons behind it. I'm pretty sure he could give you a lot of strong valid arguments about why the talents system works like this, while you are just saying things like "i want magic, and because i can't have magic the system is bad".


8/11/2017 2:59:01 AM #47
+3

Do you remember that time when the world had magic but you know Mann screwed it up so the powers that be locked magic behind the Veil? Well, it seems the Veil is tearing the fabric is unraveling, and as it does so magic is seeping back into the world and as Mann gets a taste of it again they hunger for more...slowly the tears widen. Some will stand against this, others will attempt to hasten the process, while most will simply try to survive it.

This is a true story that I just made up....


Three aberrations that have plagued gamers from the beginning: The Lag Monster, the Mistell Maven and the Typo-Daemon. Their actions have to led to laughter, anger and tears since the beginning of the Internet.

8/11/2017 12:18:30 PM #48
+1

Posted By Dekul at 6:04 PM - Wed Aug 09 2017

Posted By Nitt at 05:38 AM - Wed Aug 09 2017

Posted By grandad1982 at 9:20 PM - Wed Aug 09 2017

What teasers are these your talking about and how do I go about finding them? Did a search and nothing seemingly relevant turned up.

I think RedAngel is referring to an image found here

I don't see any magic there... clearly just an old man with a walking stick looking very suprised when he gets back to his village only to see it being hit by a very strange, and clearly quite random and innocent meteor shower.

Looking at that glowing staff, that looks more likely to be a picture of a relic in action, than a talent. Just a guess, of course.


"All human wisdom is contained in these words: Wait and Hope!"
"Does the walker choose the path, or the path the walker?"
"May those who accept their fate be granted happiness, may those who defy it be granted glory"

8/11/2017 2:10:43 PM #49
+0

Posted By RedAngel at 09:02 AM - Wed Aug 09 2017

@ABOOL

That is no excuse for not developing magical abilities since there will be supernatural npcs with magic.

And you have no idea of how stingy or generous a random dice rolled talent system will be or if you or others pick birthdates and born in the right boctune.

This system is terrible and I would rather not have it in the game at all.

The numbers are small and players are not born knowing if they have a talent. Any RPG is like that even if most MMO's are not. Magic and talents are meant to help promote the over games story line. I would believe that if you're a lucky winner your talent would be tied directly to the story path you have been following. I doubt the system would give a farmer who has never been near water the talent to breath underwater. Doing so would just waste a tent slot in the population. If the talent is never discovered or trained then the slot would likely go on to someone else who can and will use it.

So because you don't see yourself a lucky winner the idea of magic is bad and a waste of time of developers. I am sure some players feel the same about PvP, Crafting, farming or managing cities. We play the game not design it. Many aspects are included for those who want and hope to enjoy their use ingame. Thankfully your opinion of talents is not shared by the designers or seemingly the bulk of Players.

Does the idea of magic make PvP zergs a bit twitchy and nervous? Good if it does. It would be funny to see ruthless bandits burnt to a crisp by the lone traveller they meant to kill and loot. might think twice about doing so then. LOL.

A local noble has created their dream land and beat back all the Bandits. Suddenly the town is under siege from an army of undead. Suddenly, life is no longer so dull and peaceful.

Magic can add a sense of wonder, fear and change to the games flow. Nothing is ever a sure thing.


Governor of Fararo, In service to Countess Hela of Seidr, Duke Morbis of the Stormlands and their TRM King Evelake Rhyne and Queen Lagertha Rhyne of Vornair.

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Friend code: 3F53D0

8/11/2017 4:33:50 PM #50
+11

Hey All,

I wanted to quickly jump in and say that it's great to see that so many people truly understand our vision of Magick and Talents as story-building tools, not character buildings tools. You guys have so far done a great job checking off all the boxes as to why we've made the choices we have for CoE.

As to "low vs. mid. vs. high" fantasy, that was addressed in my recent State of Elyria. Specifically, I said:

We like to say Chronicles of Elyria is a sort of "mid-fantasy, high adventure" game. What does that mean exactly? Well, to start with it means the game is neither high fantasy, nor low fantasy. Unlike most high fantasy games we don't have radically different races with exotic skin tones, fur and scales, and widely varying silhouettes. Similarly, it's uncommon to see the use of magic in general, and there definitely aren't hundreds or thousands of fireball wielding mages wandering around the cities like folks off to market. On the other hand, it's not a medieval simulator either. Elyria is a different world from Earth and the history, lore, religions, physics, chemistry, and biology of Elyria is different from our own. This allows us to do things in-game which generally can't be done on Earth, and in a more fantastical way.

Most importantly, the defining characteristic of High vs. Low fantasy is centered on the types of challenges the characters in the world will face. In a low fantasy setting the challenges facing the characters are generally localized and personal. As a result, the tools necessary to solve those problems typically extend no further than the tools we posses as average humans. But in a high fantasy setting, it's not uncommon for the characters to face world or universe altering obstacles, like Sauron and the One Ring. As a result, high fantasy settings often require tools beyond the average mortal, with things like magic and technology being common go-to's to help overcome those challenges.

Chronicles of Elyria is unique because it is both high fantasy in certain ways, and low fantasy in others. In fact, it's more closely related to Heroic Fantasy or Sword & Sorcery. But it's even more than that. As we've discussed before, the world the players enter into on launch day is unlikely to be the world players will see ten years from now. As the story begins to unfold, and the challenges go from localized and personal to worldly and universal, the genre will gradually shift from more low fantasy to more high fantasy. I guess you can think of it as kind of a "Dynamic Fantasy." Coined it. It's mine.


8/11/2017 4:45:52 PM #51
+6

Honestly, the more opinions I see against the dev team ideas and the more I'm happy: they are really distancing themselves from the usual, disappointing, simplistic MMORPG by creating something unique and that requires maturity to be appreciated.

Posts like these immediately make clear the univocal point of view from which they arise and what they are aiming for; I always love the reaction and the spirit of the bigger part of the community.

Downvotes usually speak by themselves.


8/11/2017 6:16:06 PM #52
+0

Thanks for jumping in Caspian, you definitely cleared up a few areas where I misspoke regarding low fantasy.


Head Archivist, Marovec V'Ralt - The Enclave - Chair of the Bardic Institute

8/11/2017 7:40:36 PM #53
-2

My only concern is the Jack of all trades Master of none concept...as it will pertain to this game and it's developers. You can't have it all, typically games go for excellence in a few concepts and the others are lackluster.

And with all these new features that SBS is rolling out with, it's something to worry about. So hopefully they focus on really good points to excel at! And leave the other not as crucial elements to be lackluster.


House BloodBeard - Kill the boy, let the man be born

~~All Hail the Lord of Fire~~

8/11/2017 9:18:16 PM #54
+3

Posted By CptBloodBeard at 3:40 PM - Fri Aug 11 2017

My only concern is the Jack of all trades Master of none concept...as it will pertain to this game and it's developers. You can't have it all, typically games go for excellence in a few concepts and the others are lackluster.

And with all these new features that SBS is rolling out with, it's something to worry about. So hopefully they focus on really good points to excel at! And leave the other not as crucial elements to be lackluster.

I guess it comes down to how many things you think they need to be the "master" of.

As this thread has pointed out, they aren't striving to be "masters" of a complex, innovative magic system. They aren't striving to be "masters" of complicated Raids or boss mechanics. Or pet battles. Or achievement/title hunting. Or any of the numerous, standard themepark fare we are used to seeing.

They appear to be striving to be "masters" of creating an evolving virtual world focusing as much on realism and persistent character development as possible.

Now, obviously, this is much more complicated that slapping some kill/fetch quests on a world-on-rails, but it by no means shows they are trying to do everything.

I agree that they seem to have bitten off a pretty big bite, and are working towards a direction, and making "promises" (I use that word loosely), that seem far fetched compared to what we are all used to seeing in recent MMOs.

However, if they can pull off even half of it, it will be an impressive game.


Head Archivist, Marovec V'Ralt - The Enclave - Chair of the Bardic Institute

8/11/2017 11:51:36 PM #55
+10

Posted By CptBloodBeard at 12:40 PM - Fri Aug 11 2017

My only concern is the Jack of all trades Master of none concept...as it will pertain to this game and it's developers. You can't have it all....

Challenge accepted!


8/12/2017 3:36:44 AM #56
+0

I was skeptical too when I first joined. Not about the percentage of talent users, but their strength. That mage in the pic who is calling down a meteor shower on an entire city looked incredible and terrifying. The thought of someone( or a group) spamming that on cities was off putting until the Devs hinted at the tradeoff.

They said that the talents could equally be called "curses" as their is a risk when using them. While its not confirmed (I think...), many speculated the "fuel" for high level abilities like that is loosing spirit. This makes talent holders way the risk of actually using their talent in that fashion, even if its extremely necessary for survival.

And regarding the whole "5% of players thing," the devs have stated that things are changing in Elyria because magic is returning to the world. This makes ME believe that the "5%" will increase over time. My guess is like 20% but it might even go as high as 50%!!!

Who knows???!!!!


8/13/2017 5:27:04 AM #57
+0

I can see one's self using magic on Armour, shields, weapons so when they get lost for hundreds of yrs. Later found its a relic magic item the flaming sword of Ocktavia (named after a place or someones last name etc).

Using magical properties on food grown, animals (remember he-man or beastmaster). Just its endless to were you want to go with your magic as it doesn't have to be boom! die boom!. Bloody endless I tell you pop wait were did he go.


Just a lonely peasant on the road looking towards a distance future with the sweat on my back and a tear of cloth in my hand a family crest it must be. A adventure will i have, I dream of dreams my destiny awakens me.

8/13/2017 6:34:52 AM #58
+0

If a jack of all trades isn't a master of applied mathematics, then he isn't trying hard enough.


8/13/2017 9:14:38 AM #59
+0

What "magic teaser on imgur" are you referring to? Cant find one and I would like to watch it :P


8/14/2017 3:52:58 AM #60
+0

Posted By Caspian at 11:33 AM - Fri Aug 11 2017

Hey All,

I wanted to quickly jump in and say that it's great to see that so many people truly understand our vision of Magick and Talents as story-building tools, not character buildings tools. You guys have so far done a great job checking off all the boxes as to why we've made the choices we have for CoE.

As to "low vs. mid. vs. high" fantasy, that was addressed in my recent State of Elyria. Specifically, I said:

We like to say Chronicles of Elyria is a sort of "mid-fantasy, high adventure" game. What does that mean exactly? Well, to start with it means the game is neither high fantasy, nor low fantasy. Unlike most high fantasy games we don't have radically different races with exotic skin tones, fur and scales, and widely varying silhouettes. Similarly, it's uncommon to see the use of magic in general, and there definitely aren't hundreds or thousands of fireball wielding mages wandering around the cities like folks off to market. On the other hand, it's not a medieval simulator either. Elyria is a different world from Earth and the history, lore, religions, physics, chemistry, and biology of Elyria is different from our own. This allows us to do things in-game which generally can't be done on Earth, and in a more fantastical way.

>Most importantly, the defining characteristic of High vs. Low fantasy is centered on the types of challenges the characters in the world will face. In a low fantasy setting the challenges facing the characters are generally localized and personal. As a result, the tools necessary to solve those problems typically extend no further than the tools we posses as average humans. But in a high fantasy setting, it's not uncommon for the characters to face world or universe altering obstacles, like Sauron and the One Ring. As a result, high fantasy settings often require tools beyond the average mortal, with things like magic and technology being common go-to's to help overcome those challenges.

>Chronicles of Elyria is unique because it is both high fantasy in certain ways, and low fantasy in others. In fact, it's more closely related to Heroic Fantasy or Sword & Sorcery. But it's even more than that. As we've discussed before, the world the players enter into on launch day is unlikely to be the world players will see ten years from now. As the story begins to unfold, and the challenges go from localized and personal to worldly and universal, the genre will gradually shift from more low fantasy to more high fantasy. I guess you can think of it as kind of a "Dynamic Fantasy." Coined it. It's mine.

Thank you for responding Caspian

I have since stepped back from the forums a bit. All I will say is that the word "talents" is misleading. It at first implied that you could actually learn them over time as like legendary versions of cool skills that went from the mortal abilities into the mystical.

And I think to some degree as being a new player and learning that you have no choice in the matter it is a bit jarring that you cant learn them, you cannot pass them on, you may not get one, or if you do you might not even discover you had it before you die, or if you do that you most likely have to hide it, or you are pretty much signing your death warrent.

As a feature having it attached to the story is actually a really cool thing that there are special things in the world that are random and unique and unpredictable. Or that the players are the roles in that story rather than overbloated statpool npcs. I like that.

And I am cool with the fact that there is no magic at the start as long as it grows with time even if that is 5-10 years after launch as long as that is a thing eventuall.

I am cool with the tribes staying as lowly mortals vs a divine univers of untold powers and the like in a fantasy sense as long as there is a bit of mysticism in the game that makes it feel a little more like fantasy. Otherwise it is just a historical feudal oppression simulator with some fantasy sprinkled in.

I think the word talent should be changed to Gifts as the word talents implies that you can learn it wheras gifts or gifted implies that you have something more. Like psychics in our own world.

I dont have to like the fact that is isnt there at launch and I will continue to spread the good word of the splendour that this game has to offer.

That is all I will say about the subject and if the mods want they can close it down. If you want to chat about it sometime Caspian I am all for it, otherwise there is nothing more to say about it from me.


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