COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
In Game Punishment For Out of Game Action?
-5

ZombieSue asked an interesting question recently about people sharing maps on wikis, thus partially circumventing one of the game's mechanics. It got me to thinking about kings or dukes creating laws that prohibit the use of such out-of-game resources in order to help support the players who depend on producing them.

I'm curious how others feel about the creation of laws that would punish players in game somehow for actions taken outside of the game. Aside from the above example, I'm thinking of things like behavior online (forums or discord), spying on other communities, streaming game play of private events, etc. It seems a little like when a company fires an employee for something they post on Facebook.

11/16/2017 11:52:06 PM #1
+2

it would hurt the rulers to punish people for out of game things since the npc's won't understand what the person did. From their perspective the ruler is a tyrant who punishes people for no reason. and this should greatly hurt their reputation and possibly lead to a revolt.

And more importantly it would be damn near impossible for anyone to know if someone was using out of game sources. If I know that a tax shipment is about to move out because i'm watching someone on twitch and i use that to ambush them, how would anyone know?


11/17/2017 12:33:18 AM #2
+1

Posted By Moohasha at

ZombieSue asked an interesting question recently about people sharing maps on wikis, thus partially circumventing one of the game's mechanics. It got me to thinking about kings or dukes creating laws that prohibit the use of such out-of-game resources in order to help support the players who depend on producing them.

I'm curious how others feel about the creation of laws that would punish players in game somehow for actions taken outside of the game. Aside from the above example, I'm thinking of things like behavior online (forums or discord), spying on other communities, streaming game play of private events, etc. It seems a little like when a company fires an employee for something they post on Facebook.

Please no, nothing in a video game should be impacted by real life... and yes i do enjoy being in character but theres a distinct line between my life and the video game those lines should not be blurred.


11/17/2017 12:37:22 AM #3
-2

Posted By Nkrumah at 6:33 PM - Thu Nov 16 2017

Please no, nothing in a video game should be impacted by real life... and yes i do enjoy being in character but theres a distinct line between my life and the video game those lines should not be blurred.

Well, your argument kind of falls apart when the original argument references using your real life to affect the video game. If you're blurring the line one way, it makes logical sense that it should be capable of blurring the other way. Not saying yay or nay to the original idea, just that your particular argument has some fallacies.


11/17/2017 12:42:46 AM #4
-1

Well, I can think of some possible ways that the Contract system might make this possible, even in the eyes of the NPC's who wouldn't understand the fourth wall break. Even so, I'm not so sure that it would be a good idea.

The wiki maps idea does have some shortcomings that I, as a self proclaimed cartographer, am not too worried about anymore. My forum post alleviated some of my fears there.

As for spying, the thing is that the things being said in the forums and on discord channels have real in-game correlations. Board room meetings, private dinners, etc... could all be spied upon realistically, so the out of game content could be seen as the same idea. You have to "secure your meeting from prying eyes and ears," in either case.


11/17/2017 1:44:36 AM #5
+10

Given the gossip mechanic, you can expect that some amount of players will disparage the reputations of characters linked to players who have done things out of the game that they disapprove of. It's not that it's something anyone will encourage, it's that the mechanics of the world allow you to sully the reputation of another with false gossip, so it's possible -- and in my experience, what is possible in an MMO will be done, plain and simple.

Now, whether that works or not depends on the reputations of the characters involved and their avenues for dropping poisoned gossip. It's also possible to work against that sort of action using the same mechanics, which means that you can at least attempt to defend yourself, should it happen to you.

It's all an aspect of the way trust works in this game. A more traditional MMO will give the community zero trust: They will rigidly control the systems, and the actions players take within them, to ensure no one ever does the unexpected. Chronicles of Elyria isn't that kind of game. (I often argue it's not a game at all, but that's another conversation)

Instead, Elyria is a world of collaboration, where we trust you as much as you trust us. Even among yourselves, the most precious commodity in Elyria isn't gold, or even life, it's trust. We have to leave you free to use the systems in as many ways as we're able so that you can build and operate the nations you want in your world. But that does leave open negative consequences, such as graft, fraud and criminality.

To realize the world of Elyria then, we have to ensure you have the tools you need to determine the trustworthiness of your fellows. That's what systems like contracts, reputation and gossip are about, but they're not automatic. You'll have to use those systems yourselves in the world of Elyria.

Hope that helps! :)


  • Snipehunter
11/17/2017 3:43:31 AM #6
-3

Posted By Steevo at 5:52 PM - Thu Nov 16 2017

And more importantly it would be damn near impossible for anyone to know if someone was using out of game sources. If I know that a tax shipment is about to move out because i'm watching someone on twitch and i use that to ambush them, how would anyone know?

People would get caught the same way they get caught IRL: they'd brag about it or just do a really bad job hiding it. How many gamers have been caught cheating because they were cheating while on twitch?

11/17/2017 3:47:00 AM #7
+0

I agree with you, Snipehunter, that trust is a huge commodity in an MMO, and CoE is doing more to help establish trust between players, especially strangers, than other MMOs. It's those very systems that are in place to help build trust, like contracts, that I could see being used in this capacity.

And it could certainly be done in a way that was in character, like passing a law that forbids "consulting with fortune tellers or others who posses unnatural knowledge of things to come."

I'm not saying that such forms of punishment are a good idea, just curious what people's thoughts are. So far they sound negative. =P

11/17/2017 5:41:31 AM #8
+1

@Snipe, I kinda have one issue with that. What stops a gaming community like the ones that have been built around kingdoms to use their 50+ players to all spread false gossip on an individual? Not specifically kingdom groups but organizations even targeting a specific player. From the outside it appears that your system of flagging these players can be easily used by them to false flag other players.

For example, if I come in with a group of 20 people I basically control 1/3 of the town reputation "pull". With 1/3 of a settlements population spreading false gossip on a single player or even small group, it seems like you would be able to grief any player you wouldn't with that.

Let's say you add a system that allows you to defend against that, then that can also be used by the people who the system is for. Unless false gossip is significantly harder to successfully apply than other gossip it seems like you give the players the system combats as much if not more power over it.

Even in general, it seems like this game makes it extremely easy for pre-mades to stomp individuals and this could prove severely detrimental in picking up new players after 3mos of exposition. Idk, maybe a flag indicating if a group has a large population in a domain/settlement would be nice.


Hmmmm

11/17/2017 7:17:19 AM #9
+0

Posted By Moohasha at

ZombieSue asked an interesting question recently about people sharing maps on wikis, thus partially circumventing one of the game's mechanics. It got me to thinking about kings or dukes creating laws that prohibit the use of such out-of-game resources in order to help support the players who depend on producing them.

I'm curious how others feel about the creation of laws that would punish players in game somehow for actions taken outside of the game. Aside from the above example, I'm thinking of things like behavior online (forums or discord), spying on other communities, streaming game play of private events, etc. It seems a little like when a company fires an employee for something they post on Facebook.

Players will likely police these matters themselves rather than it being coded into the game.

We saw something similar in Archeage, where the elitist players would regularly prune useful information so that others couldn't make use of good farming spots for drops, resource spawns, and other useful info.

Regarding what laws can and can't be placed on out-of-game activity, that's something we don't have enough game material to speculate on yet. But I would refer back to my opening statement on this; player-driven, player-managed.


To touch Divinity, one must be prepared to brave Reality.

11/17/2017 8:04:48 AM #10
+0

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 12:41 AM - Fri Nov 17 2017

@Snipe, I kinda have one issue with that. What stops a gaming community like the ones that have been built around kingdoms to use their 50+ players to all spread false gossip on an individual? Not specifically kingdom groups but organizations even targeting a specific player. From the outside it appears that your system of flagging these players can be easily used by them to false flag other players.

For example, if I come in with a group of 20 people I basically control 1/3 of the town reputation "pull". With 1/3 of a settlements population spreading false gossip on a single player or even small group, it seems like you would be able to grief any player you wouldn't with that.

Let's say you add a system that allows you to defend against that, then that can also be used by the people who the system is for. Unless false gossip is significantly harder to successfully apply than other gossip it seems like you give the players the system combats as much if not more power over it.

Even in general, it seems like this game makes it extremely easy for pre-mades to stomp individuals and this could prove severely detrimental in picking up new players after 3mos of exposition. Idk, maybe a flag indicating if a group has a large population in a domain/settlement would be nice.

I think this is where reputation comes in (if I remember correctly). The reputation would act like a buffer to go against such an action. This of course is dependent on the fame and the size of the victim's reputation. As for the 20 player grief, it seems like a very rare scenario, but I think it was exaggerated to make a point (the idea of using rumors to grief may be serious in scale) and I totally agree with it.

As for the scenario, there are a lot of unknowns... What is their rank? Do they have a good reputation in the public eye? What exactly is the rumor? Can investigators aid the victim if they were to be hired (a possible method of defense)? Does the rest of the town believe the rumor? What is the impact of the rumor specifically?

Now, I am really nitpicking, but there is potential for the victim to not be harmed despite the large group against him. Also, there is risk for the rumor to backfire if the origin is found, leading to the assailant's reputation to flounder.

Worst case scenario? The victim packs up and leaves the town with his economic input and skills, which provides incentive for governments to protect the victims. Remember, during this time period, moving to a new location was essentially starting a new life as no one would know who you were or where you came from and I believe the same would happen in-game.


Friend Code: 1BD8F6

11/17/2017 3:09:21 PM #11
+2

Alternatively, we can stop trying to figure out what's in-game and what's out-of-game and instead view everything as part of the game. Our presence on these forums, on fan sites and supplemental wikis are all part of the game in some way. What happens within the digital boundaries of the game can affect the stuff outside and what happens outside can affect what happens within.

The "out of game" stuff collectively is a chronicle of the events that have/are unfolding - a "Compendium of Elyria", if you will. It's no different than a history book. If you read one, you can learn about what happened in the distant or very recent past. In the same way, if you visit a CoE wiki, you can learn what knowledge the creators have gathered and want to share.

And to add a real devious twist to all this, it doesn't have to be true.

FakeElyriaNews

Caveat Emptor.



"I pushed through the veil of dawn's first light. And I found a story. And it was my story ..."

11/17/2017 4:37:30 PM #12
+0

@LukeSpyro, it meant towards them doing it to new players. I think a new player is more likely to assume that this is how the game is and leave before trying to re-settle in another town. Depending on gossip he might even need to make the 1 hour+ trek to another county. The game imo doesn't seem to new player friendly currently in nature.


Hmmmm

11/17/2017 6:07:36 PM #13
+1

you wouldn't be able to enforce out of game sharing of maps. Plus i dont see anything wrong with sharing general maps or locations of dungeons, etc. You still have to discover the area dont you? I always wanted to see a MMORPG that would have a world that would have stories going on that would create situations, new cities, dungeons, creatures, etc. Now that would be awesome. But as for this game, who knows, we will just have to wait and see it all falls together.


Backer #733 "What do we tell the God of Death? not today... not today"

11/18/2017 3:36:28 AM #14
+0

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 11:37 AM - Fri Nov 17 2017

@LukeSpyro, it meant towards them doing it to new players. I think a new player is more likely to assume that this is how the game is and leave before trying to re-settle in another town. Depending on gossip he might even need to make the 1 hour+ trek to another county. The game imo doesn't seem to new player friendly currently in nature.

I understand what you are getting at, so I do agree that if a griefer were to have this large network, have the ability to distinguish new players easily/quickly, and actually has weight to his/their words.

These three requirements seem to be very difficult to achieve and costly to utilize for the average individual, so I feel that this would rarely occur...

It would be simple to add a precautionary measure like "an age minimum or else the accuser loses reputation," but I don't know if its needed to the extent that large groups of players may be marginalized...


Friend Code: 1BD8F6

11/18/2017 3:53:09 AM #15
+2

@LukeSpyro, you don't have to be a "griefer" to use a grief tactic. Any count for example with 2 mayors locked in can use their community to bully and seemingly force out that 3rd mayor. Same thing on the mayor level, same on the gentry level, same on the organization level. It's realistically smarter to have a get down or lay down mentality if you know you have the numbers. We've seen it in other games and we have seen it in history.

If you can take something for less effort and resources than it is to negotiate, humans most likely will. I'm not saying they are going around tracking new players either. New players are more likely to run into this issue naturally. Old players that have stuck around past launch have recognized these groups and done the appropriate action to stay in the game whether that was to join them, fight them or move. New players will join a settlement and want to do things that may or may not fall in line with what these established groups want them to do in "their" settlement/area and are just more likely to run into issues.

I'll use my own group as an example. I have ~20 from other games planning to help me out at launch. That's why I used 20 in the oc. What stops my group from just reputation gang-banging any pc character that wants to do anything related to blacksmithing? Any new player that spawns into that situation and wants to do that trade is instantly rekt and thats not a good experience. "Yay I just bought this epic game, I wanna make the best swords ever" 2 weeks later "WHAT?! Everyone in the town wants me to gtfo and I keep getting robbed!, this game sucks!" deleted.

My point being, the defense mechanic in a game for single/new players shouldn't be "We don't expect that many player to do it" or something along that lines. Your looking for trouble.


Hmmmm

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