COMMUNITY - FORUMS - FAMILIES & NOBLE HOUSES
Children Contracts & LGBTQ Couples

PREFACE:

This conversation is created not to talk about any aspects of copulation but instead genetic combination. Please take this document seriously as I have worked diligently on this post to create a non “firestarter” based thread. I understand that in our current real life climate that there are concepts that some people may find vile and offensive. I want to present this feedback to Soulbound Studios and the community to create a conversation that is civil amongst us and not a shouting match over morality.

CHILDREN CONTRACTS FROM A LGBTQ VIEW:

I would bet 90 - 95% of the users will find this post silly. Though, if you ask around, I have found a few like-minded persons of the LGBTQ community & friends who ask the same questions as me. Why can’t the Children Contracts simply take genetics from both parents regardless of gender of the donors? Some, if not many, will answer along the line of thought that “This isn’t how the real world is. It takes a male and a female to make a child.” and while we understand this, there also becomes a question of being reminded in a fantasy game that we are different.

I can only speak from a male perspective but my observations over the years have lead to the following conclusion that many players will choose to create characters based on typically one of three routes.

Characters that are a hyper version of the player Characters that play out a fantasy (such as opposite of themselves) A combination of both.

This is shown as athletic or aggressive males playing hyper aggressive characters built around war OR a less physical person acting hyper aggressive to show a level of dominance that he may not have in real life but has always wanted. Fantasy may also lead cisgender heteronormative males to playing female characters. All of this is acceptable but if your a member of the LGBTQ community and you wish to play a LGBTQ character; you might find yourself stuck in a heteronormative reproduction because “it’s natural”.

Before you tune me out, please, read what I have to say and try to put yourself in our shoes.

Child creation is not tied to marriage but it is tied to binary gender creation. Most people think in a binary basic when it comes to gender. If a male marries a female, typically the concept of child reproduction (or contracts) in this case are simple. The two wish to build something together. Their children are a combination of the both of them. The may each provide half of the children’s genetic code and without any problem they have children. From the LGBTQ point of view is that if two people of the same gender wish to create a child, a barrier or rather a mechanic of the game has been built to stop them. Now, that wall may not be built to intentionally disallow same-sex couples from making children but out of a need for the game system to use xx and xy based on how the genes are being combined in the system. Intentional or not, what it does is remind our LGBTQ community that even in a fantasy game, we are still different… and that can create an emotional and disheartening scenario when we just want to feel mechanically the same in the game.

One may think that the solution is that two characters, regardless of gender appearance, could combine their genetic code into a child. The child’s gender could being randomly generated upon creation and while that seems reasonable their may be a more scientific explanation.

SCIENCE:

The world of Elyria has already shown evolution takes different steps and goes outside the confines of what appears “possible” in the real world. However, there could be more under the hood than meets the eye. Perhaps nature has made all Elyrians Intersexed or sequential hermaphroditism while having visable attritubes towards one gender or another. Perhaps all persons are capable of having children with anyone else. Perhaps we have more than simple XX and XY chromosome combinations.

The most common chromosomes in the animal kingdom on earth are based around an XX and XY combination. What the reader may not know is that we actually have many other combinations. Often times, in real life, these combinations lead to an inability to reproduce however evolution may have taken a different path on Elyria. To name a few, we have:

XX, XXX, XXXX, XXYY, XXY, XYY, and XY

...And even within those combinations their lie variations. XXXY syndrome, Aneuploidy, Tetrasomy X (aka 48,XXXX), Klinefelter syndrome (aka 47, XXY), XXYY syndrome, XYY syndrome.

In fact, based on some of the very concepts and physical manifestations of some of the tribal races in the game, one could theorise that these syndromes may be at the heart of some of the mutations to Mann. Beyond even the protein base of the Yoru, some might expect them to have XYY genes. The reason I bring this all up is that maybe Elyria has just as rich of a chromosome base as the real world but these differences didn’t evolve into negative effects such as sterilization but instead enhanced the creatures on the planet. This could be the very base of what lead all mammals on Elyria to be Intersexed. The plant life on Earth varies in its own reproductive way. Intersexed plants are common.

Even beyond that, in real life we also have sequential hermaphroditism. In these species, such as many species of coral reef fishes, sex change is a normal anatomical process. Clownfish, wrasses, moray eels, gobies and other fish species are known to change sex, including reproductive functions. [see Wikipedia] This could be a simple science explanation why two people of the same starting gender can have a child. Perhaps one of the characters changes sex for X amount of time if needed. Science!!!

PROPOSAL:

All life in Elyria carries more complex chromosomes such as xxy and so forth. Perhaps a majority if not all characters are technically intersexed or sequential hermaphroditism at this point but the way this has evolved on the planet makes it perfectly natural and without a detriment. This would allow two characters, regardless of male / female appearance, to contain the complex genetic codes for Child Contracts. Everyone can have children with anyone.

BENEFIT:

First, if we frame the scenario that two people who care about each other want to combine and have children that are literally from both partners, then we remove the “you are not really the father/mother” from the spouse of the parenting couple. It changes nothing to heteronormative earth tradition and simply places non hetero based couples into the exact same mechanic and responsibilities. Both partners would be the creator of the child.

While to some, this may seem ridiculous but let me ask you this... If it doesn’t affect you, why would you fight against making the system the same for others?

CONCLUSION:

I want to thank you for taking the time to read down this far. I know I expressed some ideas that seem odd to people and while I understand there may be some persons who wish to troll; this is a heartfelt message and plea to the creators of the game. I don’t go into a fantasy game to have “real life norms” thrown in my face while mages, vampires, and liches appear in the game and are accepted without question because “it’s fantasy” yet two people of the same gender is “too far!”. Please, if liches can exist, please let two men or women combine genes to make a child. Don’t make us take extra steps to find suragets and always have the dreaded “one of you isn’t really the father” scenario come up. It’s a fantasy game. I beg you, let us have this fantasy.

Thank you for your consideration,

Arieus

Count of Ironroot

The Kingdom of Bordweall


...
12/23/2017 1:44:55 PM #1

Look, i understand your point. Im an etero male, and i support the lgbt community. The point is that this game is't as "fantasy" as you might think. Actually, devs are trying to make the game as realistic as possible while keeping it fun. So even tough i understand your point, i must say i can't agree with you. Even tough hermaphroditism might occour IRL in some really rare cases (talking about humans) it isn't so widespread to be considered the normality. Simply, this is a game who wants to be realistic and in that regard, to make a child you naturally need a male and a female. Btw, even tough i support the lgbt rights, i honestly think that a videogame is absolutely NOT the place where someone should worry about them, especially for a silly argument like this is.


12/23/2017 2:41:00 PM #2

@DasBarba

My follow-up question for you then would be: would you object to some system, potion, way, to change a characters gender temporarily to allow the child contract. Shortly after the child appears, a few days later the character returns to their original gender?

--Arieus


12/23/2017 3:19:27 PM #3

Posted By Arieus at 3:41 PM - Sat Dec 23 2017

@DasBarba

My follow-up question for you then would be: would you object to some system, potion, way, to change a characters gender temporarily to allow the child contract. Shortly after the child appears, a few days later the character returns to their original gender?

--Arieus

Of course not. I really dont mind the possibility of exceptions, i simply think that hermaphrodistism shouldn't be the standard situation for the game since it isn't so IRL. I honestly see it difficult to make a "potion" to switch sex since i personaly think that such potion should involve some kind of magic, but hey, if they plan in making this hipotetical potion possible in game, why should i bother?


12/23/2017 4:18:41 PM #4

I'm also a hetero male, and love the thought process you've put behind this. I disagree with DasBarba about "natural" - frankly I don't think there is anything more natural than love and wanting to start a family together, regardless of sexuality or gender.

Good on you for running the gauntlet and risking some challenging responses. Given that CoE is light fantasy, it's certainly possible to stretch the boundaries a little. I'd be really interested to hear more thoughts from other members of our LGBTQ community on this.


12/23/2017 4:34:26 PM #5

I am part of the LGBT community and at first I found it slightly offputting to be lumped in with people who aren’t happy about the way things are— but after reading more I understand what you are going for. I understand what you are hoping to accomplish. I was fine with not being able to have a baby with someone of the same sex. If the devs decide to allow same sex couples to have a baby together, great! It makes life much easier. If the devs decide to leave things as they are, it wouldn’t bother me. Thank you for sharing a thought provoking and unique idea for us to discuss. I am curious to see what others think.

It might benefit your argument to not make same sex marriage/parenting into something that only LGBT people would be interested in. I can imagine that, for example, a straight male who has to play as his female heir might prefer to marry his character to a woman, and have a child with her. Actually, it might make some guys who are adverse to playing as a female feel more comfortable with it. Who knows!


12/23/2017 4:44:28 PM #6

The point about this gaming being "realistic as possible while still being fun" is a bit off base I think. This game has multiple races to choose from that, while they're all kind of similar in a humanoid shape, aren't at all realistic to our world.

Also magic.

And it has a solar eclipse that lasts three years...

I'm also part of the LGBTQ community, and would really like to see full support for something like this in the game as an option. Currently, sure you can have a same sex partner, but you're forced to work with (to put it mildly) a different sex if you want an heir. Sure, it's a viable options for people in our real world, and some are comfortable with that, and if other LGBT players are, great! To me, even if I can get over it to succeed in the game, it's quite off-putting, and feels like a half hearted (though definitely appreciated!) attempt to include options for LGBTQ players. Even the option for adoption of an heir would be extremely welcome, and I'm aware that this has been discussed before.

The proposal that you have Arieus is definitely a very interesting one, and something that I think could fit in quite well with our fantasy world. I'm definitely in support of something like this in the game, especially if adoption is not viable because of other game mechanics.


12/23/2017 4:46:55 PM #7

1) I recall early talk on the tribes, maybe a video Q&A, where they were considering letting the To’resk produce children regardless of parent gender.

If it’s possible for one Tribe of Mann, why not just apply it to all of them?

2) It’s a game, so how other people generate their next character has zero effect on anyone else. “Realism” for other players will not be impacted in any way. If it makes someone else happy and costs you nothing, why deny it?

Edit: and while it shouldn’t matter, I’m a heterosexual male. This proposal, or a simpler one by SBS, has zero negative effect on my gameplay, can simplify some code (no gender check on contracts), and makes some folks happy.

12/23/2017 5:01:21 PM #8

@dasbarba

It's not at all trying to mimic real life realism, it's only using it as inspiration, as Lykinn mentions, the tribes and such that are introduced to elyria, and the spirit realm, and the fact that you can die more than once, the family chat, and a lot of other things (like children being produced by writing a contract) is not at all realistic, and they're not going for realism "for the sake of realism" only inspiration.


That said, @arieus I think you could've cut some of the post away, a lot of it seems a bit unneeded and even prejudicing, especially with the aggressive men etc. I think you could cut it down to "we would like to have it so you can have a child regardless of the character's sex" and then you come with some solutions to the few problems there might be:

  • Genetics, I think you came with an interesting analysis, and even suggestion, but I don't know if we'll have genetics in the game like this, it might only be haircolour and eye colour, and in COE it won't be based on XX or XY chromosomes, I just don't think they'll program that in, but either way it's a nice solution.

  • Pro: Pregnancy isn't in the game, so I see no reason why men can't have children, we don't have any dicks or vaginas in the game either, the only difference between a male character and a female character is the clothes they can wear and the one has bigger breats than the other one (and a tiny bit skeletal figure) But since strenght won't be effected by the sex you play, why too should reproduction, especially since you do it through a contract and the child will magically appear in the gameworld, not being an infant or any of that stuff.

Another thing I want to point out, as @Promise so nicely put, is that you don't always get to choose your sex, as it stands right now you don't get to pick the sex of your heir, so you'll be restricted in the clothing you can wear and so, also, in the genetics you can inherit, if you want to marry someone of same sex as you, you can't get to choose between their genetics, which I find a bit sad.

So CoE isn't going for realism for the sake of realism, so I think it's fine, I don't think it'll break the "immersion" more than a child just spawning in a room at a certain age.


12/23/2017 5:31:01 PM #9

I honestly don't care what they do, although it'd be a little immersion breaking for me to be able to have a child contract with same sex.

12/23/2017 5:35:04 PM #10

Not being gay myself, frankly I couldn't care one way or another if something like this was implemented. And to be honest, I don't understand why any one else would either. It could create some interesting story lines if they made it not a easy thing to do. Like in the case of a temporary potion. Maybe you need some rare herbs or something to make this potion. And think of how people that love disguises might use it as well. Since I was toying with the idea of being a witch like character, that sort of potion would be something I would want to learn how to make.

Now this makes me wonder if you could make a potion like this if you had the brew-master design experience like I do? Of course it need not be a potion but it's a good example to use one in this discussion.

But the mere fact that 5 people down voted the OP at the time of this posting makes me want to support it. I am sorry but if just annoys me when other people who this really dosn't affect personally try to stop something from happening that other people clearly might want. I just don't understand why they should even care your asking for this. I mean lets say it was implemented. Chances are the nay sayers would never even know it was happening. So why should they even care?


12/23/2017 6:02:43 PM #11

Posted By RedDoggybone at 6:35 PM - Sat Dec 23 2017

But the mere fact that 5 people down voted the OP at the time of this posting makes me want to support it. I am sorry but if just annoys me when other people who this really dosn't affect personally try to stop something from happening that other people clearly might want. I just don't understand why they should even care your asking for this. I mean lets say it was implemented. Chances are the nay sayers would never even know it was happening. So why should they even care?

How does disliking make it not happen? maybe they dont like the idea of it, the CoE team should either make a vote with the community where it gets voted, if there will be a methode aviable at start to make it happen or it should only be possible with some magic or potions or whatever.

You can identify as a dragon or as a rock i dont mind but dont except me to see you as a rock or a dragon.


12/23/2017 6:54:55 PM #12

I find it interesting that you ask to keep morality and or the discussion of such out of it, when, like you, everyone is their own individual with their own individual choices, likes and dislikes. Morality is a choice, just like everything in this world is a choice. Those that choose to not want something like same sex child contracts in a game they play because of their personal code of morality, and choose to dispute your suggestion on such a basis, should be no less valid than your wanting it based on your life preferences/choices. In the end, it will be added or it won't...but requesting/implying a major life choice of many to be not brought up and/or viewing it in such a way that it's involvement will devolve into a "shouting match", while placing importance on your own choices....well that I see as very narrow minded and bigoted.

If SBS chooses to implement LGBT as an active option with active options branching out from it like same sex child contracts, it will be like anything else in the game, like racism (Brudvir vs Kypiq as an example), or religion vs religion....and so on. There will be people that feel so strongly against it/for it as to cause in game conflict. There will be people that will go on holy crusades/wars/personal assassination missions against such those that are LGBT. So just keep in mind...while you want a game option that is fantasy based...the players will still be from the real world and still be driven by their own selfish desires in almost all cases.



-The largest cause of war is selfishness. The hardest thing to achieve in life is mutual selflessness.

Friend Code CD4DE7

12/23/2017 7:41:22 PM #13

Posted By Dariusacmar at 1:54 PM - Sat Dec 23 2017

There will be people that feel so strongly against it/for it as to cause in game conflict. There will be people that will go on holy crusades/wars/personal assassination missions against such those that are LGBT. So just keep in mind...while you want a game option that is fantasy based...the players will still be from the real world and still be driven by their own selfish desires in almost all cases.

Same sex marriage is already allowed in CoE. To allow same sex couples to have children won’t cause a difference in whether or not they would be “persecuted” if they’re going to be persecuted for who they are anyway (in your version of Elyria). As well, being gay or lesbian or any other less common sexuality isn’t a choice... no one chooses to be attracted to men and/or to women— they just are. In this sense, persecuting LGBT people makes as much moral sense as persecuting someone based on their skin color.

I think that the OP’s intentions are good, but the way things are worded is very...coarse. There was no need to put players into boxes of what characters they want to play based on how “aggressive” they are, yeah. There was no need to speak on behalf of the entire LBGT community, sure. It’s true. But think of the idea itself; it isn’t a bad one.

In my mind we could think of the OP’s idea (same sex couples having babies) as something that’s not made to benefit certain groups and is not made to be political or divisive anything like that. What if we consider it like this:

No one in Elyria is having sex to make babies. Babies are born from contracts. In which case; why can’t same sex couples make babies too? Sounds quite valid in that context, doesn’t it?


12/23/2017 8:12:06 PM #14

I think that a lot of male hetero players would use the opportunity to produce a heir without involving a woman. After all most players are male and it is much easier to breed with your guild members than to marry a woman.

I don´t know if this is good or bad.


12/23/2017 8:18:52 PM #15

Interesting point.


...