COMMUNITY - FORUMS - SELENE GENERAL
Religion and the Law in the Selene Server

Evening all.

A priest in East Haven, Connecticut has been retired after she berated, insulted, and threatened police who had entered Old Stone Church in order to effect the arrest of a person after he brutally assaulted his mother. The priest (Rev. Care Goodstal Spinks) claimed that the police had no jurisdiction in the church and that they could not arrest the violent offender because the church was a sanctuary. The view of the town of East Haven can be seen in the fact that the priest is no longer in the employ of Old Stone Church and Lt Murgo of East Haven PD has been given a commendation for his quick actions in bringing the offender to justice.

Reading this, and having dealt with a similar thing here in the UK I'd like to ask this of y'all:

How do people think this will work/should work in CoE? Should religious institutions in Nirath and other kingdoms work as safe havens? What would possible penalties (mechanical and social) would/should there be for breaching the sanctity of holy ground? In more theocratic nations (like Nirath) how would the church and state play out - would the state serve the church (complete with ecclesiastic courts) or the church the state (as happened in the UK)?

If there is going to be religious sanctuary how would you see this working?

What about ecclesiastic courts and laws?


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2/2/2018 7:16:38 PM #1

Would be interesting and possible useful in the beginning depending on how powerful institutions religions become though could become a threat


Una simul omnia sustinemus, progredimur

2/2/2018 7:24:25 PM #2

I'm sorta 50/50 on the fence myself.

IRL I'm not going to not arrest a suspect because he went in a church/ clung to a priests robes (the latter actually happened to me) especially if he'd done something violent but I would, of course, respect the sanctity of the building/person and try not to cause offense/be the secular boot of oppression.

In game I can see it being an incredibly interesting part of the game, and appropriate for the time period (and the fact that religions in CoE give a mechanical bonus helps encourage belief) but I can also see it as being destabilising to allow criminals to escape - and it's just a game so there are less likely to be 'real' consequences (such as burning in hell for all eternity) for breaching the sanctuary laws. However if Nirath does go theocratic it's gonna be a hell of a thematic set of laws to have in place


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2/2/2018 7:45:05 PM #3

Interesting topic.

Really what I'm thinking of when I read this is the level of religiousness NPCs will have. There are reasons to believe religion to be especially embedded into some tribes. Perhaps their power as institutions will be very strong too which essentially presents mayors, dukes and even kings with a very hard topic. We haven't (or at least I haven't) touched on the topic of population management. How will religion and religious institutions affect higher level politics?

A Mayor might not be able to do as he wants. Perhaps a local politics game will play out where the church (or its equivalent) will overthrow their leaders if they don't abide. In other words: I wouldn't single out the possibility for riots to happen.


~

2/2/2018 7:55:17 PM #4

I do not think there is a one size fits all answer to this, I think it will vary greatly depending on the faith and the main tribe in the area as to how that faith is practised.

I can imagine in some faiths that the 'priests' will have immunity from the law. I can imagine that those doing the bidding of the two-fold queen for the Waerd community might feel that many of the 'crimes' they committed could not be prosecuted because they were 'required' actions.

In others, I can imagine them taking in those seeking sanctuary being taken in, such as in the Virtori faith as they may see that as charity and part of their faith.

The Faedin and the Qindred and the Dras I see it as far less likely that religion and state are going to clash really. I do not see them offering sanctuary, I do not see them asking for particular privilege. Just getting on with it.

All in all I think it depends which Kingdoms get which faiths and how the mechanics of those faiths play out when we hear more about religion.


Author of the Elyria Echo the first, and least up-to-date, CoE fan site.

2/2/2018 7:56:18 PM #5

In CoE the level of protection an institution be it religious or secular is solely based on how much the kingdom needs them.

If a religion is what is keeping the population in line because the dictator of a king is seen as a gift of the gods and the priests/clerics affirm this they will have a lot more leaway than a church in a kingdom that doesn’t need the support of clerics/priests.

Same would go for an explores guild. If they are the ones who make the kingdoms maps and are the ones who Scout for deviant squatters or foreign invaders the king needs them and may allow them to shelter people the guild wants to protect.

5/29/2018 10:03:10 AM #6

I am against the sanctuary in Coe and in real life obviously. If someone has done a crime he must pay. No church or temple has the right to interference. In Coe will create a safe haven for Criminals. And will put the Church above the power of the State.


5/29/2018 10:10:12 AM #7

it's interesting topic chipla, I would look at this from Duke's view - since you're kinda in charge of both religion and law enforcement. You have temples being build, you try to reinforce and spread religion but at the same time you need to maintain order and law, so when someone breaks the law, it may become awkward when bandits use your own institutions to hide from you. In any case I will agree with Augustus, people should not use religion institutions to hide from justice if they broke the law both irl and CoE.

5/29/2018 10:23:58 AM #8

People will do what they think would be the most fun. Things like this, will increase some peoples' enjoyment factors. I think it'd be quite interesting to have a different class of people that is a bit different than the politically savvy or just political enough to help lead a city and it's development.

A church like this would be very interesting, things that would go on in there would be awesome thing to see and notice how they develop. As long as everything remains in the sacred grounds that are agreed on and signed by contract that they will not commit such acts outside of their micro-causem I would see absolutely no problem with these people being in or around.

The biggest glaring fault of just out-right banning these people. Will not get rid of these peoples' mind sets. Sure you would support and extend authority. But, is that worth it? Is it worth them just doing it under your nose without telling you about it about the ideals they hold and how they would like to play the game?

Everyone will be for the most part will pay some type of stipend to the government as a whole. A place that has a localized communion would be great for those that want to live that life cycle as long as their mayor or elder pays what ever they are deemed to owe some person.

But that's generally not the topic up for discussion, (People, running their own stick without help from above powers.)

This is talking about ways to get out of being punished for a crime? wouldn't s/he have to leave the place eventually? If they don't leave they would practically be imprisoning themselves. So, to does that mean they are punished? Not quite but it would be very silly that some one just stays in a church unharmed from the kingdom/count/aristocrat's police,

Though they would have to deal with their internal police, just like native american's have their own on their preserve. People will want to have security of some kind. If it's people working together or hiring Private guards to do the security, and may pose a problem if they don't code NPCs capable of filling the role of that type of contract.

It will all even out, people that would do this there is no harm done, but be weary, if there is too many people seeking "sancuary" they would have a ton of people not really working depending on the contract or implicit contract that would exist supporting that, if it's secluded to the building, or the plot the church owns.

In a video game, I highly expect religious entities, till farther talked about, will not have very much money.

5/29/2018 11:33:20 AM #9

I’m glad this topic is still garnering interest.

The link between church and state and the belief of the populace will be interesting. I do think the inherent beliefs of the NPCs and how strongly they feel about those beliefs will effect the power of the church.

Malais makes an interesting point about secular sanctuary. I can see navies and armies desperate for recruits hiding criminals in exchange for a period of service.

Powerful merchant guilds might also be able to prevent local forces from entering their property/searching their vehicles/ships.


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5/29/2018 11:47:01 AM #10

Posted By chipla at 07:33 AM - Tue May 29 2018

I’m glad this topic is still garnering interest.

The link between church and state and the belief of the populace will be interesting. I do think the inherent beliefs of the NPCs and how strongly they feel about those beliefs will effect the power of the church.

Malais makes an interesting point about secular sanctuary. I can see navies and armies desperate for recruits hiding criminals in exchange for a period of service.

Powerful merchant guilds might also be able to prevent local forces from entering their property/searching their vehicles/ships.

It depends on the market value of hiding/harboring such fugitives. For the most part, if it causes a big enough problem, the law wouldn't stand, remember we are dealing with Kingdoms, They can and will change laws just to fit what would be in their best interest.

Unless this whole thing isn't created by players. Instead, created by the developers in specific tribes. There may be a different problem when it's ingrained within the culture of the NPCs. I highly doubt that would happen.

For the most part people like to have power, and gain more power, something that gives another entity more power in a specific case will indeed cause for a reason for it to never exist,

I would like to see someone try this, but I highly doubt it would be cost effective for the church, unless they do some kind of outrageously flexible contract or implicit law defining what sanctuary is and what it constitutes the church power over.

5/29/2018 12:01:02 PM #11

If a criminal enters my church of Daemon in Nirath I'm sure they'll be burned as an example for not upholding Dragor the Fire King's laws, thereby cauterising a wound in society. So they should keep far away. Churches of pretender religions might treat them differently.


5/29/2018 12:03:27 PM #12

Ceal the doors, burn the church with everyone inside! ...

On a serious note :

The question is do you want all your churches to become the place of gathering for criminals and the perfect cover for illegal organizations? Or do you want them to be of use to the average citizens to obtain bonuses, buffs or whatever they may give you?

They may serve both purposes though, but it will be clear to everyone that you better not stay around a church too much if you want your life to be safe. Which goes against the philosophical idea of a religion for most of us.

But in Elyria, it may be very different and may make sense that some religions like the Al'tifali become a gathering of criminals trying to "keep the balance".

I'm not sure on how this would end, but personally, I'll rather avoid putting in place a religious system that would promote criminality and then grief for the population. In my position would be counterproductive, to say the least.

Edit: What about ecclesiastic courts and laws?

Creating separate laws and status for religious places seems overly complicating an already complex game. It seems almost utopic to get people to follow the laws uniformly around the kingdoms. Adding some layers to that complexity could create funny situations on occasions but to the price of a bureaucratic nightmare.


5/29/2018 5:46:42 PM #13

This is an interesting topic.

As I recall history, sanctuary was not a free pass or 'get out of jail free' card. The penalties within sanctuary were severe and included a lifetime of service to the church in a monastic setting. If you weren't suited to monastic life, this would be pretty harsh. But you lived so yeah.

5/30/2018 4:26:28 AM #14

I agree with Raziel. If Church will hide Criminals I will gladly save the 5000 Ep for the Religion kit.


6/12/2018 9:27:37 AM #15

I have doubts kings will want to give so much power to the church although maybe if the church gets influential enough maybe the king will have little choice.

A more likely sanctuary in my view however would be foreign embassies, just like our RL world.