COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
Perfect example of griefing
-9

Since this debate has been going on for a while, here I present you with a perfect example of "griefing". IMPORTANT: Yes you can fix that (particular example) by making npcs react hostile the third time you do it. But it is incredibly hard to "find" exploits in a game that isn't even released, so we just say that this will be in the game like this. Because there WILL be "loopholes" in the game that players will abuse to grief. Caspian & Co are no gods. They will not create a perfect simulation and human-like A.I.

The main factors, that apply here are: -takes 0 effort (its not like you have planned a boycott over two years and if you get caught it is punishable) -its not against any ingame or out of game rules (what? lifting your fists is now forbidden while you are close to someone? Yes you can make that law, but after a few months you will have 100 different laws all punishing something super basic, because you can use it to grief) -the only reason to do this is to harm someone, just because you can. You aren't a rival blacksmith who tries to take him down... You are just a nobody out to do harm

CoE is no revolution of human behavior. People WILL find ways to abuse the system, without it beeing considered as "bugusing/exploiting". Lets say that you can initiate a duel with someone, just by drawing weapon/fists, which stops the crafting of someone.

Now you go to an npc, wait a bit while he is crafting a swrod, draw your fist, put them away and his progress is lost. THIS is griefing. It is allowed that you initiate a duel by drawing your weapon. It is wanted, that the progress is lost (or that you have to reheat it every time or something) when you stop it mid action. It is wanted that npcs react to threats.

Here we have a perfect exploit. Depending on how long crafting/heating takes, this can be of minor annoyance up to a total collapse of that persons buisness. And how and for what crime do you want to punish the player? He can do that all day. Its not against any known laws, its no exploit because he doesn't gain anything and and and. Its just abusing the engine to cause harm for your own fun.


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10/11/2018 9:45:21 AM #1
-5

If you people still want to tell me, that there "is no griefing" because you can set up laws to punish certain behaviour, I will leave you guys in peace, because you are obviously delusional and no rythme or reason will get to you. Sorry I'm not hating on you. But to think that there won't be griefing, when NO game was without it (even other RPMMos ) is blind trust in caspians words.

YES I know what he meant. And CoE certainly will make it harder to grief, because there are so many variables (survival, no offline logging, punishment for missbehaviour) BUT it WILL NOT be the perfect game. And people WILL find ways to grief, if they want to. This is a simple reality of online games.


10/11/2018 12:07:02 PM #2
+3

If crafting progress is indeed lost in such a situation (which I would doubt but don’t know for sure)

Would be as simple as making a law that threatening someone ie going into combat mode by drawing a weapon or using an unarmed stance is against the law.

Fairly simple to remedy actually. Since combat in coe uses different stances and different moves in those stances to create combat moves it is something the system would keep track of.

10/11/2018 12:19:02 PM #3
+1

Found the solution!

Well first a question... Drawing his fists? If someone raises his fists it doesn't naturally threaten me so you can ignore him, and if he is spamming you for a duel, well, beat him up or have guards escort him away no? Between that and the fact that having to set down the blade for a quick second probably won't ruin it and I gotta say no real problem here.

What I really wanted to get at though, as I have been one of the voices of opposition to the Elyria will be full of horrible griefing posts is that even I think there will be "griefing" if that is what you want to call it instead of sabotage, or pvp, or whatever it might fall under.

I just think that the way the game is getting set up allows players a lot of freedom in how they deal with conflict. In this example above, even if the guy is threatening them, and he gets away with it, and its debilitating his crafting. The blacksmith doesn't have to just take it sitting down.

I look at these posts as more of a, "how can we solve this problem" type of posts because by all means they are things we will see attempted at launch, and realizing this allows us to set up the structure required early to help lessen the conflict if you don't want it in your area.


10/11/2018 12:30:52 PM #4
-4

Posted By Viktoriusiii at

IMPORTANT: Yes you can fix that (particular example) by making npcs react hostile the third time you do it. But it is incredibly hard to "find" exploits in a game that isn't even released, so we just say that this will be in the game like this. Because there WILL be "loopholes" in the game that players will abuse to grief. Caspian & Co are no gods. They will not create a perfect simulation and human-like A.I.

Why u no read? o_o

Posted By Viktoriusiii at 11:45 AM - Thu Oct 11 2018

YES I know what he meant. And CoE certainly will make it harder to grief, because there are so many variables (survival, no offline logging, punishment for missbehaviour) BUT it WILL NOT be the perfect game. And people WILL find ways to grief, if they want to. This is a simple reality of online games.


10/11/2018 12:44:00 PM #5
+4

I find it very doubtful that duels would even start like that. It's not like some normal MMO, random flag appears and you can spam people to duel you. Higher chance, for people wanting to duel. Just have to both agree to it through chat. Not some in game system setup to help them.

If you wanted to make an example of griefing. I wish you used something that's possible. Not just make up some random BS, of how you think things will work.

In your example, someone comes along and raises his fists. For all we know, since we are making up random facts now. Nothing happens. He just looks threatening and I would probably think he may attack me or probably think it's some random doing random stuff.


10/11/2018 12:49:44 PM #6
-2

I feel like anyone who thinks laws will stop greifing is being way too naive. i mean there are lots of crimes in real life that never get solved and i think that problem will be extremely amplified in game. i'm expecting a situation where crimes will be so abundant that most of them will go unpunished simply because there's too dam many happening.

and personally my concept of griefing is when someone commits a crime but does it to be an asshole rather then to get anything out of it, instead it's purely to ruin other peoples experience.

I think most instances of griefing are gonna be things like someone going to another county then killing some livestock for the "lols" and then going back home. i doubt there would be a trail of blood going across a county to the criminals home. I don't think that there would realistically be any way to prevent stuff like this, griefers will do whatever they want until they eventually get bored of it and stop.


10/11/2018 1:05:38 PM #7
-4

Posted By Gunnlang at 2:44 PM - Thu Oct 11 2018

If you wanted to make an example of griefing. I wish you used something that's possible. Not just make up some random BS, of how you think things will work.

Posted By Viktoriusiii at

IMPORTANT: Yes you can fix that (particular example) by making npcs react hostile the third time you do it. But it is incredibly hard to "find" exploits in a game that isn't even released, so we just say that this will be in the game like this. Because there WILL be "loopholes" in the game that players will abuse to grief.

How can I give you an example of griefing, if we dont even know how the mechanics work? The problem is, that there is no "perfect" game, and never will be. There will always be situations like this.

And my example was taken out of skyrim, where NPCs will break up everything they do, if you draw your weapon/fists. So it is not something "unrealistic" but something, that might happen... or might not. WE DON'T KNOW.

But as this thread isn't called: "this issue is griefing, please fix it" but is called "a perfect EXAMPLE of (possible in Elyria, but the game isnt out so we have no way of knowing) griefing" , I have no idea why you fixate so much on the probablility that this specific example happens.

And everyone else: ITS NOT ABOUT THAT ONE EXAMPLE! THERE WILL BE HUNDRETS OF WAYS! And if you try and make a law about every minute way of griefing, you will have laws that make you unable to breathe at the end.


10/11/2018 1:18:41 PM #8
+2

Posted By Viktoriusiii at 12:05 AM - Fri Oct 12 2018

I have no idea why you fixate so much on the probablility that this specific example happens.

Just like I have no idea why you are so fixed on griefing. Will it happen? Sure. Since you know, everyone has different meanings on the word.

In the end, one of three things will happen. People will find a way in game to deal with said griefers. People will know those people will come along from time and time, dealing with them the best they can. Or people will have a good cry when it happens, probably on the forums.


10/11/2018 1:31:20 PM #9
+7

Uugghh...

Your example is awful. You literally just made it up, this already wouldn't happen anyway.

Murder the poor moron and take all his stuff every time he "griefs" you.

Look, I'm going to be straight with you. This has not presented any new information or concepts or caused me to think about any aspect of this issue in even a slightly new way. However, because your initial premise has a built in safety valve "It's not just this one example." You can come up with new scenarios until the end of time because "it's not just this one example."

Uugghh...

Look buddy, there's no end to this conversation. "What about this? What about that? What if x, y, or z?" It's never going to end! I know that you think you're making a valid point, but let me clue you in on a little secret, okay. Nobody cares. Alright, nobody cares. Everything you're talking about, no one cares. Even the people who have commented so far do not actually care when it comes right down to it.

There is no catch all solution. There is no perfect game. You said it yourself. There's always going to be a loophole somewhere. Soooooooo......... what do you want? God descending from heaven with the "Anti-Griefer Patch" day one after release? That seems unlikely.

I'm going to say "Repeatedly and relentlessly murder the griefers and take all their stuff." You're going to say, "but what if they don't stop even if you're killing them all the time." Get together with friends and build walls, don't let the griefers in, do whatever you gotta do. Now you say, "What if the griefer gets together with other griefers and attack your wall?" Uuuggghhh... That's called gameplay. It's a bandit raid, okay. It's... it's gameplay, that's how it works.

No one cares about your hypotheticals or your speculative fears. Murder everyone who won't leave you alone. "But how can you murder a griefer if he hasn't committed any crimes. You can't make a law for everything." ... Uugghh... Well, if trespassing laws to keep people from being near you aren't enough then I guess you're just gonna have to never play COE because it's full of hypothetical griefers. I'm sorry the game didn't live up to your hypothetical speculative standards.

Alright, bottom line, we can't build the perfect anti-griefer mechanics BECAUSE GRIEFING DOESN'T EXIST, HA!


10/11/2018 1:33:03 PM #10
-7

Finally we agree on something :D

Well the definition is kinda set... but the other stuff. Thats all I wanted to say. That people are wrong when they think that griefing will somehow be solved (via laws or other methods) completly OR that it doesn't exist and all is fairgame.

I just want ppl to stop idolizing this game as if it will have no flaws. And saying that there will be no griefing is so wrong, it rubbed me the wrong way :D


10/11/2018 1:54:09 PM #11
+5

@Viktoriusiii

No one is idolizing the game. Anyone with half a brain realizes there will be problems but the power is literally in the hands of the players to fix it. And while you give a “perfect example” a very simple solution to that “perfect example” is a simple as the system doesn’t work that way.

While you accuse us of idolizing CoE (check my history I’m relitively hard on SBS when it comes to certain things) yet you assume they are utter morons who have never played a game in their lives and have no idea about how griefing works.

Most of us understand problems will arise and we thank you for trying to make sure we are aware but seriously point made and accepted move on?

10/11/2018 2:25:29 PM #12
+4

lol

I agree that no game is without griefing.

But cant I as a Baron simply say

Hey, if you act like a dick for the sake of being a dick I'll kill you then banish you, your name will be added to the list of "Dick Heads" and you will be killed on sight within the County. I dont care about making laws, I'll just ride you down.

10/11/2018 2:35:16 PM #13
+2

you dont set up duells in CoE like that. Either you start communicating with your opponent or you simply attack. Why should there even be a "duell"-mechanism? Whats the point? If you can attack anyone anytime, why should there be such a mechanism?


Friend Code: 30EF47

10/11/2018 2:48:35 PM #14
+2

I have not heard of any particular "duel" mechanic, and attacking someone would most likely be considered a crime, so...


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10/11/2018 3:09:37 PM #15
-4

Malais. Last answer then i got 3 day holiday so yeah point made:

Yes THAT example is "done with" by saying "system doesnt work that way"

It was a "perfect" example, because it encapsulates the spirit of griefing, not because it will perfectly fit elyria.

@rest: this goes for you too. Dont specify about "dueling mechanic". It was a simply example of how things are run in skyrim and how this would lead to griefing. But im sure, there will be other examples in that order, that you can't simply put a rule in place to stop. (do you wanna outlaw jumping in the city? Does everyone need to be at least 1m apart? What if you draw your weapon accidentally? and so on.

Yes people might find solutions to a lot of the problems. But that will take time and it wont ever fix ALL issues. Griefing will exist. That is all I wanted to state (because caspian said there is no griefing, because everything can be handled as if it was something like a theft. And "evil action", when in reality, griefing isn'T done by the character, but by the player, not to hurt other characters, but to hurt other players.


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