COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
Perfect example of griefing
-9

Since this debate has been going on for a while, here I present you with a perfect example of "griefing". IMPORTANT: Yes you can fix that (particular example) by making npcs react hostile the third time you do it. But it is incredibly hard to "find" exploits in a game that isn't even released, so we just say that this will be in the game like this. Because there WILL be "loopholes" in the game that players will abuse to grief. Caspian & Co are no gods. They will not create a perfect simulation and human-like A.I.

The main factors, that apply here are: -takes 0 effort (its not like you have planned a boycott over two years and if you get caught it is punishable) -its not against any ingame or out of game rules (what? lifting your fists is now forbidden while you are close to someone? Yes you can make that law, but after a few months you will have 100 different laws all punishing something super basic, because you can use it to grief) -the only reason to do this is to harm someone, just because you can. You aren't a rival blacksmith who tries to take him down... You are just a nobody out to do harm

CoE is no revolution of human behavior. People WILL find ways to abuse the system, without it beeing considered as "bugusing/exploiting". Lets say that you can initiate a duel with someone, just by drawing weapon/fists, which stops the crafting of someone.

Now you go to an npc, wait a bit while he is crafting a swrod, draw your fist, put them away and his progress is lost. THIS is griefing. It is allowed that you initiate a duel by drawing your weapon. It is wanted, that the progress is lost (or that you have to reheat it every time or something) when you stop it mid action. It is wanted that npcs react to threats.

Here we have a perfect exploit. Depending on how long crafting/heating takes, this can be of minor annoyance up to a total collapse of that persons buisness. And how and for what crime do you want to punish the player? He can do that all day. Its not against any known laws, its no exploit because he doesn't gain anything and and and. Its just abusing the engine to cause harm for your own fun.


10/12/2018 4:46:45 AM #31
+1

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 9:40 PM - Thu Oct 11 2018

Why do these threads pop up in waves. You get like 10 posts of grief fear mongering then they all seem to vanish for 3 months, have a nightmare and come back.

I think that's my fault. I had asked pretty much the thoughts on evil roleplay and wanted to see how people felt about it, since I want to push my soul's affinity all the way over. People took the word griefing and ran with it all the way to what you see today, in multiple topics :(


10/12/2018 3:32:57 PM #32
+0

Posted By Steevo at 2:41 PM - Thu Oct 11 2018

Posted By KipFoE at 11:10 AM - Thu Oct 11 2018

Posted By Steevo at 07:49 AM - Thu Oct 11 2018

“I don’t think that there would realistically be a way to prevent stuff like this”

Have guards to protect your herds? That’s one of the most basic concepts of land/possession control: in games and real life.

unless half of all npc's are going to be guards then its really unrealistic for farmers to have 24/7 protection for their livestock/crops.

keep in mind that npcs will not be able to stand guard all day, if you want to have at least 1 person guarding livestock at any given moment then you would need 2-3 npcs rotating as guards.

if coe is realistic then it would be very rare for any farms to have 24/7 protection, some might be able to afford having 1 npc standing guard throughout the night but that should be about it. its not like were gonna have a situation where a town of 100 people has 30 of them working as guards.

most farms shouldn't have guards constantly standing by as that just wasn't affordable in real world history nor would there have been anywhere near enough guards available to do that.

It will certainly take some theorycrafting to determine how many soldiers a settlement can provision. I do plan on having 24/7 protection, in the form of guards or pets, if at all possible. If you have a gap in your patrols, a good deviant or bandit will scout you and plan their activities accordingly.

And yes, you will want to be near a settlement. The lone wolf dies and the pack survives. (Most of those here know where I got that I imagine.)

@Beathan: no, we aren’t going to be bandits. But we can protect you from them.


Kip from Fist of the Empire

Friend code: 72EC67

10/12/2018 6:12:10 PM #33
+3

I have never been a griefer in any game I've played, but seeing these threads on repeat makes me want to hunt down all the people whining about griefing in game and kill them repeatedly until they leave the rest of us in peace.


10/12/2018 6:39:14 PM #34
+1

Talking about griefing is a hard subject, especially when there's no testing. It's kind of like talking about a car that's being built and people predicting that the brakes are going to fail. You can't really have a good, thoughtful discussion without test driving it or watching someone test drive it first and all you're left with is assumptions, predictions, and general opinions about the car.

My thought is this: People are going to figure out ways to mess with games, developers know this and they try to prevent it as much as possible. Like those games, it will probably happen in COE but I can say with certainty that SbS has a good collaborative mind and can work to mitigate these problems as much as possible. However, it's also on US as players, as testers, and as community members to report these issues and not let them go unreported.

Your example isn't bad per-say, it's just that it's hard to discuss without anything physical. First we would have to believe that this is the mechanic in place (that NPCs run away from people who have a weapon or fists up) and then we'd have to believe that there's no way/fix around it without having complicated laws that are hard to follow.

In regards to your example, I don't personally believe that NPCs would be created to be that skittish. In a perfect world, I could see most NPCs (depending on their profession, etc) mentioning the fact that a player is in a combat stance and that it's a problem to them, but not interrupting whatever it is that they're doing. Kind of like how in some games, if you are holding your weapon and try to talk to a NPC they will say "Heck no, I'm not talking to you until you put that weapon down.". As others said (in other ways), if you had a knife out in a store IRL there would be some consequences. I don't see why that can't happen in Elyria too, maybe NPCs will remember that the next time you try to buy something and go like "hey, that person was super threatening in town...they make me nervous and I don't think I'll sell to them without talking to them more" etc etc. Again, this is all opinion...I think the planned Reputation/Communication Systems will also greatly help in preventing extremely overt "griefing" (aka. actions taken by players that give them no direct in-game benefit).

/ends essay

10/12/2018 7:01:51 PM #35
+1

Posted By Hellmoon at 1:39 PM - Fri Oct 12 2018

However, it's also on US as players, as testers, and as community members to report these issues and not let them go unreported.

I think the essence of most of these conversations is what is an “issue”. What is reportable as griefing vs working as intended gameplay vs an exploit vs harassment. (The last two being violations of terms of service)

A lot of the conversations have also been about in game ways to deal with various unwanted actions.


Kip from Fist of the Empire

Friend code: 72EC67

10/12/2018 7:11:38 PM #36
+5

Posted By Julius Foederatus at 7:12 PM - Fri Oct 12 2018

I have never been a griefer in any game I've played, but seeing these threads on repeat makes me want to hunt down all the people whining about griefing in game and kill them repeatedly until they leave the rest of us in peace.

You're RPing someone who is annoyed at people bitching about griefing on the forums and have broken (Falling Down style) thus have a valid RP reason for your crusade.

Not that you actually need a valid RP reason for your gameplay choices nor do you need to justify your gameplay choices to me, or to anyone.

My biggest issue is with the endless whining about griefing in a game that doesn't exist yet is that a portion of the community seems to deem 'griefing' as any activity that inconveniences them and are desperate to make an in-game issue (people killing them, or in one somewhat pathetic example given in another thread jumping) into an out of game issue (by labelling it griefing and demanding dev action). They demand that certain playstyles are deemed invalid which is frankly a very bad path to go down. If you don't like a person's in-game actions deal with it yourself (stab them) or get someone else in-game to deal with it (hire someone else to stab them or get a guard to stab them).

Will I combat criminals and deviant players? Yes, I'm a duke and that's a part of my role but I'm going to use game resources to punish in-game acts. If a player breaks ToS this is something for dev action. I may disagree with the deviant lifestyle (I certainly think the "secret" assassination groups on the forums need to learn OPSEC) but I'm never going to declare whether or not a gameplay style is 'valid'. That is the sort of mental immaturity that breeds idiots who think it's ok to assault people who voted differently from them.


10/12/2018 8:07:56 PM #37
+0

The example just had to use a blacksmith. Would it be a crime if the blacksmith accidentally let fly a red-hot piece of iron in the general direction of the face of the "careless" person who seemed to threaten him?

Of course, a weaver or tailor probably would not have a potentially lethal startle reaction. I guess that's not entirely fair.


10/12/2018 11:20:24 PM #38
+5

O.M.G. I virtually always read every post in the thread before responding...but I...I...just can't. It's too painful. It reminds me of the kid in the car asking why to every answer, not because he actually wants to know, but because he's getting attention and pissing off his parents.


lol...Pronounced Dare-EE-us ACK-mar...for the many people that have asked and those yet to.
-The largest cause of war is selfishness. The hardest thing to achieve in life is mutual selflessness.

Friend Code CD4DE7

10/13/2018 6:05:45 AM #39
+0

You're really overthinking this for some reason.

10/13/2018 4:25:34 PM #40
+3

Posted By Poldano at 06:07 AM - Sat Oct 13 2018

Of course, a weaver or tailor probably would not have a potentially lethal startle reaction. I guess that's not entirely fair.

Scissors.

:P

OP, the main question that comes to mind reading your example is...

...have you actually read the dev journals pertaining to crime and punishment, or are you making assumptions based on what you've heard about the game secondhand? If the answer is the latter, I seriously recommend you buckle down and do some reading. None of us are saying griefing isn't going to happen. A lot of us just have a reasonable degree of confidence from what we've seen of the schematics that there's going to be a good set of checks and balances mitigating its impact and preventing it from destroying the game.

Nothing's perfect, and nobody's saying it is. Testing will tell us how solid the game's integrity really is. But on paper, things look good.


To touch Divinity, one must be prepared to brave Reality.

10/13/2018 4:53:23 PM #41
+0

Get strong or be wrong. People find ways to complain about a game that hasnt come out yet. Where we have no idea how the mechanics will react to each other. There is no merit in exclaiming this is griefing! When we dont even know if mechanics like this will exist.

Besides get strong enough to stop the wolfs that come or move somewhere else. People wont change in CoE in terms of killing ,and looting like any other game.

This game has been a little more unique though that theres a huge sense of order to it. A full heirarchy which multiple guilds follow completely ,but it wont stop the flood of people who will take because they can. It happened alot in the middle ages the strong took from the weak ,and it will happen here.

Get strong. Run away. Or Perish.


10/13/2018 7:35:17 PM #42
+0

Posted By Wolfguarde at 09:25 AM - Sat Oct 13 2018

Posted By Poldano at 06:07 AM - Sat Oct 13 2018

Of course, a weaver or tailor probably would not have a potentially lethal startle reaction. I guess that's not entirely fair.

Scissors.

:P

OP, the main question that comes to mind reading your example is...

...have you actually read the dev journals pertaining to crime and punishment, or are you making assumptions based on what you've heard about the game secondhand? If the answer is the latter, I seriously recommend you buckle down and do some reading. None of us are saying griefing isn't going to happen. A lot of us just have a reasonable degree of confidence from what we've seen of the schematics that there's going to be a good set of checks and balances mitigating its impact and preventing it from destroying the game.

Nothing's perfect, and nobody's saying it is. Testing will tell us how solid the game's integrity really is. But on paper, things look good.

exactly, and I'm really not sure why these posts are still above water.


10/14/2018 1:23:21 AM #43
-1

"Get strong. Run away. Or Perish."

I get what you're saying here but those really don't seem to be the only options. In all honesty, most things that would, in-game, cause a player difficulty can be addressed by doing what people do, live SOMEWHERE, instead of in the middle of nowhere.

It seems perfectly reasonable that people will be able to complain about a pain in the ass in game. Or punch said pain in ass. Someone jumping in the middle of your conversation? Punch em. You don't need to be the most skilled combatant in the game to punch someone a bunch of times. The person you're talking to will probably punch them to.

Or take your conversation inside. Or contact a guard. Did I also mention punching? Fist fighting is a thing right? With knockouts and such? I'm assuming here.

Moral of the story, it's more like... Get strong. Run away. Or Perish. Or punch.

-Kash


10/14/2018 1:31:35 AM #44
+0

Posted By Kashius at 6:23 PM - Sat Oct 13 2018

"Get strong. Run away. Or Perish."

I get what you're saying here but those really don't seem to be the only options. In all honesty, most things that would, in-game, cause a player difficulty can be addressed by doing what people do, live SOMEWHERE, instead of in the middle of nowhere.

It seems perfectly reasonable that people will be able to complain about a pain in the ass in game. Or punch said pain in ass. Someone jumping in the middle of your conversation? Punch em. You don't need to be the most skilled combatant in the game to punch someone a bunch of times. The person you're talking to will probably punch them to.

Or take your conversation inside. Or contact a guard. Did I also mention punching? Fist fighting is a thing right? With knockouts and such? I'm assuming here.

Moral of the story, it's more like... Get strong. Run away. Or Perish. Or punch.

-Kash

get strong

punch them

Can you spot the difference between these two photos


10/15/2018 3:06:55 AM #45
+0

I took get strong to mean get really good at combat to the point where you can kill who you need to.

-Kash


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