COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
How are our finances?

Do you think the court systems in most kingdoms will provide enough interplayer trust to enable the critical player made financial institutions? Can put our heads together and make fractional reserve banking work in Elyria? Loan sharks and debtors prisons when?


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11/28/2018 6:44:05 AM #1

Yes and no.

Personally I will not trust Elyrian banks until they are already tried and true. However if the bank has a backing from the county level or higher, I can see it being potentially a good thing.

Brand new players that come in post launch may have nothing to their name, or may have big dreams and not enough capital to fund it. This is where loans and banks come into play, and I think desperate players will be less picky about their loans when faced with their ideals happening or not.

One a bank begins to get a good reputation and starts to spread it's way into other domains, I can eventually see traditional banking occurring.

Also I do agree that the contract and law system will provide an adequate outlet for banks to be created. If the loaner or loanee breaks the contract then x happens as repercussion. Take the contract to an adjudicator and boom, you can hold the other party liable.

TLDR: I can see some people being desperate enough to not care about trust, and I can see some people willing to take a risk regardless of desperation or trust.


11/28/2018 7:03:27 AM #2

From wikipedia on fractional-reserve-banking:

In the past, savers looking to keep their coins and valuables in safekeeping depositories deposited gold and silver at goldsmiths, receiving in exchange a note for their deposit. These notes gained acceptance as a medium of exchange for commercial transactions and thus became an early form of circulating paper money. As the notes were used directly in trade, the goldsmiths observed that people would not usually redeem all their notes at the same time, and they saw the opportunity to invest their coin reserves in interest-bearing loans and bills. This generated income for the goldsmiths but left them with more notes on issue than reserves with which to pay them. A process was started that altered the role of the goldsmiths from passive guardians of bullion, charging fees for safe storage, to interest-paying and interest-earning banks. Thus fractional-reserve banking was born.

Expect things to transition somewhat similar, with the initial banks essentially just acting as the most secure storage vaults technology can offer. Thus expect bank storage to come with fees rather than interest. Banks can also take on the role as a mediator between an independent creditor and debtor, ensuring there is fair treatment between both sides for a fee (gives security against loan sharks and unserious clients).

However, to pay regular interests to hundreds of clients will require a lot of work without a more automatic system, as such it's possible Elyria's banks won't evolve all the way in that regard during its 10 year story. But that doesn't mean they can't become independent creditors after having built up their own capital given time.

11/28/2018 7:10:44 AM #3

But that doesn't mean they can't become independent creditors after having built up their own capital given time.

Well I just want decent market trust to emerge so I can go LARPing as a rich morally gray usurer in NA-E.


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11/28/2018 7:16:06 AM #4

However, to pay regular interests to hundreds of clients will require a lot of work without a more automatic system, as such it's possible Elyria's banks won't evolve all the way in that regard during its 10 year story. But that doesn't mean they can't become independent creditors after having built up their own capital given time.

Technically fractional reserve banking can still effectively compete by just not requiring those flat fees for storage, or putting the added investment money into security. Leaving the money just sitting in a cell is incurring lots of opportunity cost even if it's not possible to provide customer interest rates.


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11/28/2018 7:20:09 AM #5

It's not recommended to walk around with your capital. A bank is all good and well, but you never can really trust the person behind it.

Ask around in your Kingdom discord how they are planning to solve the problem. After all, it is a problem, no matter how you look at it. You need a house with a lock on the door. Ask the count if there are guards who protect the houses against thieves. Guards are all fine and nice, but when they only protect the town and make the streets safe. they will probably do little for you personally.

Place a high quality lockable chest in your house, preferably heavy so a thief can't just pick it up. Safe your valuables in it, and hide the chest in a spot with also a lock on it. If you are rich, you can also pay an npc to guard it.

I personally have an idea about a guarded storage where citizens can place their locked chest with valuables. The count will pay guards to protect it. Every citizen is responsible for his own locked chest and even the count doesn't need to have a key. Every time when you need to get in your own chest, you need to make an appointment with the count, and you get a guard for that moment so you can't roam around to check if your key fits on other chests or whatever. A big building, like a guildhouse, will probably be perfect as storage for the chest with your valuables.

A little fee for the safety of your own valuables is all I would ask. After all, the guards need to be paid and the storage house is not cheap either. And if the Count doesn't let you at your chest, you can complain to the Duke. Before you trust the chest with valuables to the count, you ask the Duke if the count can be trusted and ask if he helps you if the count is betraying you.

You could also trust the Duke with your valuables, but than you have to bother the King with your complaint if the Duke is betraying you. The higher you go with your complaint, the lower the chance it will be rewarded.

If you think this post is to long for you to read, than don't read it.

11/28/2018 7:37:05 AM #6

It's not recommended to walk around with your capital. A bank is all good and well, but you never can really trust the person behind it.

Ask around in your Kingdom discord how they are planning to solve the problem. After all, it is a problem, no matter how you look at it. You need a house with a lock on the door. Ask the count if there are guards who protect the houses against thieves. Guards are all fine and nice, but when they only protect the town and make the streets safe. they will probably do little for you personally.

Place a high quality lockable chest your house, preferably heavy so a thief can't just pick it up. Safe your valuables in it, and hide the chest in a spot with also a lock on it. If you are rich, you can also pay an npc to guard it.

I personally have an idea about a guarded storage where citizens can place their locked chest with valuables. The count will pay guards to protect it. Every citizen is responsible for his own locked chest and even the count doesn't need to have a key. Every time when you need to get in your own chest, you need to make an appointment with the count, and you get a guard for that moment so you can't roam around to check if your key fits on other chests or whatever. A big building, like a guildhouse, will probably be perfect as storage for the chest with your valuables.

A little fee for the safety of your own valuables is all I would ask. After all, the guards need to be paid and the storage house is not cheap either. And if the Count doesn't let you at your chest, you can complain to the Duke. Before you trust the chest with valuables to the count, you ask the Duke if the count can be trusted and ask if he helps you if the count is betraying you.

You could also trust the Duke with your valuables, but than you have to bother the King with your complaint if the Duke is betraying you. The higher you go with your complaint, the lower the chance it will be rewarded.

If you think this post is to long for you to read, than don't read it.

This plan is lame AF. So the government is going to hold my money for me? Why is that a thing the county guard should waste its time doing? I don't need the count's permission to store my goods in a chest and hire a mercenary. Let people pay for the safe storage of their own wealth. You make it sound like your entire plan for your county is just some enormous command economy where each function of life is provided by a different state quasi-company.

Also, where is the potential for interest? You're just gonna lock all that dough in a box somewhere? No high risk investments? No shady venture capital deals? Who's gonna give me my guaranteed(TM) 20% yearly returns? How am I gonna cheat on my taxes if the government is the one storing all of my under the table options gainz? This is just silly.


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11/28/2018 7:43:12 AM #7

I wouldn't trust any banking system. EVE online is a good example of a player run banking system that spent years building up their good credibility and trust with clients.

Then the guy in charge sneaks a bunch of shares, put's him in the majority. Takes all the money and runs with it. I see the same thing happening in Chronicle's of Elyria, and not just with banking.

EVE attracts individuals who will spend years devoted to planning out the perfect time to strike. COE will attract the same crowd I believe, which is amazing, but be careful who you trust :) EVE was full of people being stabbed in the back by individuals they would never have questioned due to all the time spent together.

But again, I don't think this is a bad thing at all. I LOVE seeing these amazing schemes people come up with. I'm too impatient and savvy to do it myself lol.


11/28/2018 7:53:44 AM #8

Posted By Fannon at 01:43 AM - Wed Nov 28 2018

I wouldn't trust any banking system. EVE online is a good example of a player run banking system that spent years building up their good credibility and trust with clients.

Then the guy in charge sneaks a bunch of shares, put's him in the majority. Takes all the money and runs with it. I see the same thing happening in Chronicle's of Elyria, and not just with banking.

EVE attracts individuals who will spend years devoted to planning out the perfect time to strike. COE will attract the same crowd I believe, which is amazing, but be careful who you trust :) EVE was full of people being stabbed in the back by individuals they would never have questioned due to all the time spent together.

But again, I don't think this is a bad thing at all. I LOVE seeing these amazing schemes people come up with. I'm too impatient and savvy to do it myself lol.

The difference I think is that EvE Online has no justice system. IRL, if Jamie Dimon tries to run off with JPMorgan's money he goes to jail (theoretically), and if the court system in the kingdom works then the same thing should happen if the executive of an established bank tries to embezzle funds on a large scale.


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11/28/2018 7:56:45 AM #9

Posted By GeorgeCarew at 08:37 AM - Wed Nov 28 2018

You could also trust the Duke with your valuables, but than you have to bother the King with your complaint if the Duke is betraying you. The higher you go with your complaint, the lower the chance it will be rewarded.

If you think this post is to long for you to read, than don't read it.

This plan is lame AF. So the government is going to hold my money for me? Why is that a thing the county guard should waste its time doing? I don't need the count's permission to store my goods in a chest and hire a mercenary. Let people pay for the safe storage of their own wealth. You make it sound like your entire plan for your county is just some enormous command economy where each function of life is provided by a different state quasi-company.

Also, where is the potential for interest? You're just gonna lock all that dough in a box somewhere? No high risk investments? No shady venture capital deals? Who's gonna give me my guaranteed(TM) 20% yearly returns? How am I gonna cheat on my taxes if the government is the one storing all of my under the table options gainz? This is just silly.

Than don't do it. As count I have my own protection. Nobody is forcing you to bring it to me. I don't mind if you keep your own stuff stashed away in a hole in the ground. Most banks have lock boxes in secluded areas. They are for valuables, not your money.

My money is safe and the interest is the tax you pay. I don't recommend a bank at all. Banks can't be trusted, because you have to give the money to a person, not guarded it in a locked box with your own key. If you want interest on your savings, you are forcing the bank to spend your money on other stuff like real estate. And we all know what can happen than. The count doesn't need that money. It will be much better for the count if you don't bother him at all.

The count is just trying to be friendly and give a cheap service.

11/28/2018 7:59:38 AM #10

I plan to stuff my mattress with my money.


11/28/2018 8:00:32 AM #11

Posted By Hieronymus at 08:59 AM - Wed Nov 28 2018

I plan to stuff my mattress with my money.

Best idea ever :)

11/28/2018 9:05:34 AM #12

If players wish to establish banks for securing deposits, investment loans or financing trades, they can give it a try. They could use merchant guilds as a starting point for instance. Security is a major challenge though.

I do not think it will be wise for Elyrian governments to initiate or support such functionalities. Treasuries will exist to collect and store tax money, which will be used to fund public projects and services, a.o. to ensure public security. I see no practical argument for governments to offer other financial services for their citizens.

Land, real estate, business working capital, and minimised amounts of coin stowed away in matresses, bedpans and old socks or other more seclusive hiding places, may be the best way to secure ones private properties.

11/28/2018 3:32:55 PM #13

Posted By Ilyria at 03:00 AM - Wed Nov 28 2018

Posted By Hieronymus at 08:59 AM - Wed Nov 28 2018

I plan to stuff my mattress with my money.

Best idea ever :)

Until your house burns down...

11/28/2018 4:02:31 PM #14

I think they will provide enough trust for those institutions to rise and flourish.

But I'm also 100% certain that in a lot of cases, we'll see those who've trusted those institutions lose their money to incompetence, malice, and opportunism. Possibly even in most cases, depending on how many deviant players we have setting themselves up in trusted positions throughout the various sub-communities of the game.

If you want to keep your money safe, you'd best get to building a dungeon.


To touch Divinity, one must be prepared to brave Reality.

11/28/2018 4:21:54 PM #15

Sure, accumulate your wealth in deep dungeons rather than invest your capital and cripple your local economy from lack of circulation. My bank will be happy to help broken local economies that needs new capital pumped into them. I'm depending on you guys.~

*sigh* Even if you don't got banks that do the investment for you there is still many ways to gain interest on capital by doing the investments yourself. Invest in real market, offer your own creditor contracts, provide startup capital to promising guild projects for a share on future profits. The list goes on. Wealth that gets invested also can't be stolen. And depending on what you invest in its not overly hard turning the assets back into capital either when needed.

Of course, investments comes with risks: estate can burn down, giving out loans without security is bound to bite you back if given irresponsibly, and projects can fail. Still, compared with having the wealth slowly drain away into dungeon maintenance and other security measures I would say it's the better option.