COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
Combat and PvP
+6

Hello. It's me.

Combat in CoE is still a mystery, with only a few small clips being shown that don't really reveal much. PvP is imperative to the greater success of CoE, and I'd like to discuss how i think it can be made glorious.

Point 1: Do not have the camera "lock on". A locked camera dumbs down combat by removing the need to aim the swing of your sword, and by limiting dodges to the press of a button rather than the players movement - It limits PvP to a 2D plane. Have the camera free, as it is when roaming the wild.

Point 2: Your sword should swing where you aim. If I'm looking up and left click, I should swing up in the air. If I look down and left click, I should swing into the ground. This will be crucial when the Kypiq rise up and stab at our shins.

Point 3: Do not have locked attack animations. When I left click, I should swing my sword infront of me. Nothing more, nothing less. It should not lock the full character into an animation, but only the character's upper body, leaving the movement of the character in the player's control. Attacking with heavy weapons should slow movement during the attack.

Point 4: Hitboxes must be true to the character and weapon model. If I swing my sword and it doesn't visually connect with their model, it should not deal damage. Players should be able to duck under attacks and move in and out of the enemies reach. The Kypiq need not duck.

Point 5: Attacks should not be instant. If I left click I should not instantly swing my sword, but instead I bring my arm back then swing forwards. The time taken to bring the arm back should be proportional to the weight of the weapon. This can be the visual que needed to parry or dodge the attack.

I hope SbS considers these points when developing the combat mechanics. I really am not keen on the idea of CoE with "For Honor" combat or similar.

Anyway thanks for reading. What's your thoughts?

Edit: Having thought it through and reading Jouten's responses, I realise I have basically just described mount and blade's combat. Though it would be cool to see in CoE, I doubt it would work out. 😘


Speak softly and carry a big stick.

...
1/8/2019 6:39:43 PM #1
+0

Finally someone that speaks my language lol... Combat is currently under development. I hope will be good. I have been an hard core pvper for the last, 20 years, since Ultima Online and I have to stress the fact that combat is number one priority in a mmorpg


1/8/2019 7:38:29 PM #2
+5

I have to disagree with point three, unless you take a reduction to your damage in order to swing while moving. Using only your arm to swing or punch anything results in a very weak hit.


1/8/2019 7:45:41 PM #3
+8

From PrElyria Pictures/Gifs from Discord

From the brief snippet, it looks to be very Dark Souls-like with the weighty build up to attacks and the straffing.

To comment per point

  1. They mentioned they will be using a soft-lock system (I believe). When you mention needing to "aim" your swings, are you saying something like Mount & Blade? Those types of swings feel floaty if we're looking at it as a direct translation into CoE, I personally prefer to adjust my characters position based on what I personally know to be the reach of each strike as I input them.

  2. Guess we're talking about a direct translation to M&B. I know it's somewhere but I believe they said they're limiting the "directional" input for attacks to just left and right. Probably whatever striking input you enter will determine whether it's high, low, or side.

  3. Personally against this. Swinging your sword without moving feels silly to me. As a fencer, you strike and close the gap or set something up depending on your measure and their measure. Swinging in the air just feels empty and non-threatening, unless you're making your character manually walk up at the same pace as he was before he attacked which looks a bit awkward.

  4. Accurate Hitboxes are always a plus.

  5. If we were going realistic (which I doubt with all the stuff we've been seeing) attacks are almost always going to be instant, but for a game it should have some build up. Heavy, medium, and light strikes would be nice.

5a. EDIT: To add onto it, I'd like to see weapon parries create potential whiffs and strikes have cancels into a different strike but said cancels can backfire if your opponent continues on with their attack. Pretty much, 2nd intention or even 3rd intention strikes are useless unless you first intended strike can land, cuz you just might have to if your opponent isn't awake. I'd like to see combat be complex without the gimmick of those angled mouse direction strikes. And to add to comment 3, even parrying requires a bit of a sidestep to ensure you're as far away from your opponents weapon as possible. Longsword.academy: Fühlen-less schielhau concept


1/8/2019 7:51:26 PM #4
+5

Combat in CoE involves learned styles/techniques which themselves can be made unique to the individual using them. Styles/techniques are no doubt dependent on the weapon you are using and what stance you choose to be in.

I can't remember the exact wording of how the combat was described as there is no one single reference but rather multiple comment spread across quite a number of months of chit chat in discord.

Notable posts:

The swings and slashes are different depending on what sorts of combat styles and techniques you know. There's a tactical game in selecting the appropriate stances for the appropriate conditions and your opponent. That also includes things like combos, where slashes and other strikes can chain into each other if you execute them properly and your opponent can't get their defenses in the way.

Roll Dodge: Some. We've built a framework that will allow it but we haven't actually implemented anything like that, yet. Hand to hand combat: Yes, and a grappling mechanic to allow for mid-fight shenanigans outside of formal martial arts, like grabbing for a sword disarm, etc.


1/8/2019 8:15:39 PM #5
+2

Posted By Muleface at

Hello. It's me.

Combat in CoE is still a mystery, with only a few small clips being shown that don't really reveal much. PvP is imperative to the greater success of CoE, and I'd like to discuss how i think it can be made glorious.

Point 1: Do not have the camera "lock on". A locked camera dumbs down combat by removing the need to aim the swing of your sword, and by limiting dodges to the press of a button rather than the players movement - It limits PvP to a 2D plane. Have the camera free, as it is when roaming the wild.

Point 2: Your sword should swing where you aim. If I'm looking up and left click, I should swing up in the air. If I look down and left click, I should swing into the ground. This will be crucial when the Kypiq rise up and stab at our shins.

Point 3: Do not have locked attack animations. When I left click, I should swing my sword infront of me. Nothing more, nothing less. It should not lock the full character into an animation, but only the character's upper body, leaving the movement of the character in the player's control. Attacking with heavy weapons should slow movement during the attack.

Point 4: Hitboxes must be true to the character and weapon model. If I swing my sword and it doesn't visually connect with their model, it should not deal damage. Players should be able to duck under attacks and move in and out of the enemies reach. The Kypiq need not duck.

Point 5: Attacks should not be instant. If I left click I should not instantly swing my sword, but instead I bring my arm back then swing forwards. The time taken to bring the arm back should be proportional to the weight of the weapon. This can be the visual que needed to parry or dodge the attack.

I hope SbS considers these points when developing the combat mechanics. I really am not keen on the idea of CoE with "For Honor" combat or similar.

Anyway thanks for reading. What's your thoughts?

To be blatantly honest I don't care!

For some reason the MMORPG community goes farther and farther down the Combat Rabbit hole is if its the only thing that matter's in a game???

What made Ultima Online and SWG so much better then the themepark junk of today?!? OTHER THINGS TO DO

That wasn't combat!

Thats why I am here, thats why this game appeals to me!

Look combat and PvP is a needed thing, you need danger so that life feels more rewarding...

But other then that Combat should be no more of a focus then fishing or farming or crafting!

For too long has combat been 90% of game play when it needs to be 10%


1/8/2019 8:27:28 PM #6
+2

@Jouten

Point 1. Perhaps similar to M&B, yeah. A locking camera automatically adjusts for yaw and pitch, which I believe takes away from the visceral feel of combat. In the gif you provided, imagine it exactly the same but you have to aim at the enemy, instead of it auto aiming at the enemy.

Point 3. I need to clarify my point, I agree with what you are saying, and with @Kaynadin. I mean to say that the movement should be in the players control during the attack, and not locked to a fixed animation. The player can move during the swing, but the direction of movement should be variable.


Speak softly and carry a big stick.

1/8/2019 8:40:58 PM #7
+2

Usually I'm against that sort of gameplay, seeing how the mouse will be dictating your upper body and the WASD are controlling the legs. That disconnect between the two halves always felt too tanky if that makes any sense, but maybe because nobody's done it right. If for instance you're able to time a double tap to dash in (or just take in a longer step than what you normally would do if you were just walking) and then input in the strike button I'd dig that, but that might be asking too much for folks and would be far to unique for a game of this scale. But the idea is there and I could see it work if they're willing to go nuts with the animations.

For a potential scenario keep the following inputs in mind:

  • LMB = Strike
  • Middle Mouse = Thrust
  • WASD = Movement
  • Any movement double tap = Passing Step

Double tap left or right to side step and hit center mouse button to keep the threat up, double tap W+D (which would be weird as heck) to come in at an angle and LMB to your left for a diagonal cut to your opponents right, your opponent does the same thing but he goes in for a deeper strike cuz he held down W+D allowing him to go straight into a center mouse button for a thrust with double tapping W. I'd dig it, but it may be far too complex, at least my interpretation might be.


1/8/2019 8:41:41 PM #8
-2

Posted By Sulfurblade at 8:15 PM - Tue Jan 08 2019

To be blatantly honest I don't care!

For some reason the MMORPG community goes farther and farther down the Combat Rabbit hole is if its the only thing that matter's in a game???

What made Ultima Online and SWG so much better then the themepark junk of today?!? OTHER THINGS TO DO

That wasn't combat!

Thats why I am here, thats why this game appeals to me!

Look combat and PvP is a needed thing, you need danger so that life feels more rewarding...

But other then that Combat should be no more of a focus then fishing or farming or crafting!

For too long has combat been 90% of game play when it needs to be 10%

To be honest, I didn't buy into CoE to play a farming simulator. I grind enough IRL.

I'm here to play the dance of dynasties. There will be no kings or queens usurped by the sheer amount of food you gathered last month, or by the amount of RP you did with your buddies. Thrones will be fought for, wars will be raged. Sorry if that excites me more than being able to grow a simulated carrot and feed it to my simulated cow.

Edit: I'd like to retract my statement saying that you cannot usurp a throne via food. I'm sure you can starve a kingdom out of existence, and that is pretty dope. Still, I'd rather fight my way to the top!


Speak softly and carry a big stick.

1/8/2019 8:42:48 PM #9
+3

Posted By Sulfurblade at 8:15 PM - Tue Jan 08 2019

To be blatantly honest I don't care!

For some reason the MMORPG community goes farther and farther down the Combat Rabbit hole is if its the only thing that matter's in a game???

What made Ultima Online and SWG so much better then the themepark junk of today?!? OTHER THINGS TO DO

That wasn't combat!

Thats why I am here, thats why this game appeals to me!

Look combat and PvP is a needed thing, you need danger so that life feels more rewarding...

But other then that Combat should be no more of a focus then fishing or farming or crafting!

For too long has combat been 90% of game play when it needs to be 10%

Totally agree. What appeals to me most about CoE was the idea that combat is not necessary for everybody. That someone who just goes around combatting willy nilly can get in trouble with the law. That in a settlement, unless there is a massive seige going on, it's relatively safe and protected so I can play in other ways.

If CoE just turns into another combat focused game where all players are just bloodthirsty warriors then i'll honestly quit cos it's just like any other game and the other 95% of the game becomes pointless if it's just all about combat training and fighting all the time.

Posted By Muleface at 8:41 PM - Tue Jan 08 2019

Thrones will be fought for, wars will be raged. Sorry if that excites me more than being able to grow a simulated carrot and feed it to my simulated cow.

Well if you think that's all this game is worth, fighting for thrones then I think you'll be unimpressed. The person growing that carrot is the one who is making food for your character to eat and if everyone is just focusing on fighting then you'll soon starve.


1/8/2019 8:51:00 PM #10
+1

If CoE just turns into another combat focused game where all players are just bloodthirsty warriors then i'll honestly quit cos it's just like any other game and the other 95% of the game becomes pointless if it's just all about combat training and fighting all the time.

I'm not hoping for the game to be purely combat focused, as we all know it won't be. I'm just hoping the combat will be worthwhile. I hope the farmer can fight the knight, devoid of gear or stats, and based on real skill alone.


Speak softly and carry a big stick.

1/8/2019 9:54:07 PM #11
+1

Im fine with most people focusing on fighting. Most people will have 3 souls and 3 sparks unless they are brand new. 2 farmers and 1 combat will likely be the norm. People will likely let their alts farm and focus on pvp, but when theres no bang, their combat toons will probably be guards in their town. Things will work out fine but i prefer more people focus on combat so my simulated carrots and simulated cows will be worth more. Especially when i take that cow apart for leathers food and bow strings.


The nicest pig in the world and a little cute.

1/8/2019 9:57:06 PM #12
+0

You'll be a bit disappointed then. It's more of a hybrid between gear, character stats, and your own ability. Though if you have some noble knight that doesn't even know how to attack as a player vs a skilled farmer with a knife the farmer has a chance.


1/8/2019 10:51:38 PM #13
+0

Funny. Before reading anything here, just seeing the topic, I thought I might just reply to the thread with "Combat is a myth and PvP doesnt exist", just like people comment on magic regularly... Now, this thread even starts with "combat is a myth". Thats kinda funny :)

Posted By Sulfurblade at 9:15 PM - Tue Jan 08 2019

Posted By Muleface at

Hello. It's me.

Combat in CoE is still a mystery, with only a few small clips being shown that don't really reveal much. PvP is imperative to the greater success of CoE, and I'd like to discuss how i think it can be made glorious.

Point 1: Do not have the camera "lock on". A locked camera dumbs down combat by removing the need to aim the swing of your sword, and by limiting dodges to the press of a button rather than the players movement - It limits PvP to a 2D plane. Have the camera free, as it is when roaming the wild.

Point 2: Your sword should swing where you aim. If I'm looking up and left click, I should swing up in the air. If I look down and left click, I should swing into the ground. This will be crucial when the Kypiq rise up and stab at our shins.

Point 3: Do not have locked attack animations. When I left click, I should swing my sword infront of me. Nothing more, nothing less. It should not lock the full character into an animation, but only the character's upper body, leaving the movement of the character in the player's control. Attacking with heavy weapons should slow movement during the attack.

Point 4: Hitboxes must be true to the character and weapon model. If I swing my sword and it doesn't visually connect with their model, it should not deal damage. Players should be able to duck under attacks and move in and out of the enemies reach. The Kypiq need not duck.

Point 5: Attacks should not be instant. If I left click I should not instantly swing my sword, but instead I bring my arm back then swing forwards. The time taken to bring the arm back should be proportional to the weight of the weapon. This can be the visual que needed to parry or dodge the attack.

I hope SbS considers these points when developing the combat mechanics. I really am not keen on the idea of CoE with "For Honor" combat or similar.

Anyway thanks for reading. What's your thoughts?

To be blatantly honest I don't care!

For some reason the MMORPG community goes farther and farther down the Combat Rabbit hole is if its the only thing that matter's in a game???

What made Ultima Online and SWG so much better then the themepark junk of today?!? OTHER THINGS TO DO

That wasn't combat!

Thats why I am here, thats why this game appeals to me!

Look combat and PvP is a needed thing, you need danger so that life feels more rewarding...

But other then that Combat should be no more of a focus then fishing or farming or crafting!

For too long has combat been 90% of game play when it needs to be 10%

I agree. Combat is just as important as any other profession or mechanic. If contracts dont work or we cant dig holes into mountains and find ore inside or if CB mechanic works so bad that everyone ignores it or if the Law enforcement mechanics dont work or if one single person can in one night destroy all trees and deer in a duchy, thats all just as bad as if combat wouldnt be fun for anyone. I'll clearly say, general AI behaviour is more critical to CoEs success than if combat works out good. If Elyria cant flourish without players, players will have a hard time playing it.


Friend Code: 30EF47

1/8/2019 11:12:37 PM #14
+0

Posted By Muleface at 12:41 PM - Tue Jan 08 2019

Posted By Sulfurblade at 8:15 PM - Tue Jan 08 2019

To be blatantly honest I don't care!

For some reason the MMORPG community goes farther and farther down the Combat Rabbit hole is if its the only thing that matter's in a game???

What made Ultima Online and SWG so much better then the themepark junk of today?!? OTHER THINGS TO DO

That wasn't combat!

Thats why I am here, thats why this game appeals to me!

Look combat and PvP is a needed thing, you need danger so that life feels more rewarding...

But other then that Combat should be no more of a focus then fishing or farming or crafting!

For too long has combat been 90% of game play when it needs to be 10%

To be honest, I didn't buy into CoE to play a farming simulator. I grind enough IRL.

I'm here to play the dance of dynasties. There will be no kings or queens usurped by the sheer amount of food you gathered last month, or by the amount of RP you did with your buddies. Thrones will be fought for, wars will be raged. Sorry if that excites me more than being able to grow a simulated carrot and feed it to my simulated cow.

Edit: I'd like to retract my statement saying that you cannot usurp a throne via food. I'm sure you can starve a kingdom out of existence, and that is pretty dope. Still, I'd rather fight my way to the top!

And if everyone is so warmongery then this game is doomed. And I truelly believe that if you can't find enjoyment in anything the doesnt involve combat my friend then how is the world going to have balance and be fun for everyone???

Your truelly telling me you have never enjoyed a game without combat??? Factorio? Tetris? Sim City? American Truck Simulator?

Did you every play Dungeons and Dragons Table Top and use your imagination, and the GM told you there would be No fighting this session!!!

Really mate the only thing a game should be is combat???


1/8/2019 11:16:53 PM #15
+0

Posted By Muleface at 12:51 PM - Tue Jan 08 2019

If CoE just turns into another combat focused game where all players are just bloodthirsty warriors then i'll honestly quit cos it's just like any other game and the other 95% of the game becomes pointless if it's just all about combat training and fighting all the time.

I'm not hoping for the game to be purely combat focused, as we all know it won't be. I'm just hoping the combat will be worthwhile. I hope the farmer can fight the knight, devoid of gear or stats, and based on real skill alone.

Absolutely not the farmer should never be able to stand against a knight thats just silly to think of.... A person with no training against the most trained individual in an entire county??? Knights are not just another Man at Arms Knights are the Very Very Few the best of all the Man at Arms that exemplify Chivalry and uphold the highest standing of character and the highest ability's for martial skill.... A knight must posses both....

So the idea of a knight fighting a farmer is a bit silly in and of itself as that would be below the honor of a knight to act in such a dishonorable way!


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