COMMUNITY - FORUMS - SOULS, TALENTS, & REINCARNATION
Short note on the 360° back attack
+4

Hi there, i recently saw a video showcasing the very early combat and you seem to stick to the 360-attack (1h).

As i have trained and tested the hell out of nearly all common weapons for the past 15 years, i can give you the full report on perfoming a back attack:

  • you die, the end

On a more serious note:

  • The time it takes to turn the upper body around is equal to a broad swing
  • The enemy has a window of around 1 second to stab or rush into the attacker. This is usually enough to counter the 360° move
  • The back of most armor parts is inferior to it's front, which translates into less plate used or more leather bindings used to strap the chest piece tight. Those do not offer the same protection = weak spot
  • The moment you turn your head away in a speedy spin, you lose all accuracy for the enemy's position. When you can blink at him again at the end of the movement, that is generally the time for you to re aim or realize your strike is off
  • I have not seen any succesfull 360° attack to this day
  • The only way to slighty make it work, is to hit a feint and immediately follow up with the spin attack. Even then, a short reactive counter attack is still faster and will hit the body

Looking at what you aim to achieve with the game, the 360 attack is out of touch and should not be used in the game, BUT for amateur fighters, who just begun their journey and think it would look cool... until they bleed.

Thank you for reading and feel free to contact me, if you have further questions.

Edit: I am writing this without having checked any up to date content. In the event of this whole issue being resolved, i apologize.


1/9/2019 10:37:38 PM #1
+4

Just tossing this out there, but there are many martial stances, and many fighting styles that are all combine-able and interchangeable. It is likely that they add the spinning attack move in there because people will think it is cool, but since the game takes into account actually connecting your attacks, and the armor level of the area the attack landed, it is likely that people who develop their combat past basic levels will quickly find out the spinning 360 attack doesn't work all on their own.

I guess in a way it is just another thing players will get to experiment with and learn with. Since there is no limit on what you can learn, having the tool in your belt doesn't mean you have to use it, but say you were showing off or even play fighting, it gives you some added versatility.


1/9/2019 11:01:12 PM #2
+3

I see you've just started posting here good sir. This topic has been brought up many times, spread amongst many topics on both the forum and Discord (IRC as well back in the day) and it just boils down to the need to make attacks have build up because it's still a game. A cost of time to damage ratio.

Heavy attacks to the masses are almost always associated with big swings, and the biggest of swings involves a person lumbering around like a ballerina to build up a slicing strike on a suit of plate.

If we were to take the realistic approach, I'm sure almost only 5% of the folks would have fun, as long as their connection are fast and their refresh rates on their monitor is high and their input lag is low, because attempting to stop an oberhauw with a schielhau is nigh impossible and playing the fencing game without fuhlen when you've parried can never be realistic, no matter what.

However, I do agree we could do less spins with "certain" weapons like a single hand sword. I don't know a how many frames they're gonna tie to each tier of attack, but they could always make the single hand weapon swings look even heavier with a bit more build up (pumping the arm back or something).

Also to add to what Labbe mentioned about different experiments with the 360 attack, there are moves handled with a montante (Zweihander or greatsword or whatever language you want to call it), where they swing around like a fiend as this was a guards weapon as well as a war weapon. It's doable, but only for very specific weapons that are meant to cover a wide range at a distance.


1/10/2019 12:35:05 PM #3
+1

Thank you for explaining in detail the gist of arguments on the matter.

The Zweihänder / Montante school is very familiar to me, as i have trained with the weapon the most and got a friend acting as montante coach.

First of all (and i will upset some people), all written books on techniques are lacking a minor or major chunk of knowledge from around the world = people who train in HEMA or fencing learn only a % of what is possible with the weapon, but sometimes tend to think they mastered it. So if you see videos of people showcasting techniques, they will likely be limited and should not be taken as "best advise" when adapting any form of combat art.

Edit: To put things in perspective: While i did train with weapons half of my life, i respect any controversial opinion on the matter and do not wish to offend HEMA or fencing schools in general.

Concerning the Zweihänder, the rotational swings are for getting momentum and creating feint attacks to land a hit. If you attack into the rotation, you will likely break his wrist&block. That is why round swings are basically weak movements which allow for a counter, if you see through them.

But lets keep it at that. If the attack is meant to serve the purpose of visualizing a game mechanic, than i would highly recommend animating it in the most realistic way, to not look out of touch with actual combat.

For that, the character has to first initiate the round swing and keep the head on target, then turn head and body into the last part of the swing (when the stretch is as max and forces the body to move with the swing) to complete the attack.

The more agile and fast the attacker is, the less time is wasted on not seeing the target. To make it easier to understand, imagine an uppercut movement as 360° attack, where the blade strikes form feet to head in a wide arc.

You could also try out realistic combos to justify longer swing times, by adding pummel strikes, blunt blade strikes, kicks, shoulder rams, power strikes on a certain area to numb muscle contraction to allow for a longer second comeback hit, which cannot be blocked and so on


1/10/2019 2:45:13 PM #4
+5

I think this is the perfect time to repeat the tried and true Snipe statement:

"verisimilitude vs veracity"

They aren't attempting to recreate a hyper-realistic medieval combat simulator - they are making a game. While they do often look to reality for inspiration and continuity (they have SME's in a lot of areas working with the dev team), the ultimate goal in not hyper-realism, it's fun.

There are going to be any number of instances (in plenty of areas other than combat) where they sacrificed "this is how it is in the real world" in favor of something a bit more...entertaining.

Call it poetic license.


Imgur

1/10/2019 3:26:09 PM #5
+1

Oh snap, sorry about that Archiemedis, I made that response before you updated your profile pic of Ewart Oakeshott. I wouldn't have been so "explanatory" if I saw that so my b.

And I'm starting to see a trend of bad HEMA groups giving off horrible experiences towards other folks as condescending; to my experience the one's I've hung out with on the East Coast of the US as well as a good chunk in Europe are generally not like that. That we all agree the literature is the master, and all we can do is interpret it and assume their context based on their assumed culture at the time, and that if our interpretations differ from one another then we put it to the test and at the end of the day, we may both be right or both horribly wrong. I believe the videos I posted above have the presenters saying that their actions are "concepts" or interpretations or their believed understanding or the source material and that they do not state that their way of doing is even the correct way. (David Rawlings for instance in another video mentions that we will bicker amongst each other but could come to an understanding or see one another's point of view, like any good scholarly debate.)

But to add to your comment, yes I would prefer if they made the "harder" hitting strikes not follow standard tropes of spinning around but use core principles of harder hits of taking build up time with increased recovery time but tie it to more realistic actions (albeit exaggerated for video game purposes). If you watch the GDC video on Making Fluid and Powerful Animations For Skullgirls it might do a better job of explaining what I'm trying to get across. Granted this is towards a 2D fighting game but some principles could carry over to 3D (those heavy special attacks in Dark Souls for instance.


1/12/2019 1:37:54 PM #6
+0

Beatiful sources there, thanks for sharing.

Absolutely, Marovec, yet i feel positive about trying out new things and emerge in what may become a fun activity.

Here is another one: I tried to create a sports tournament with replica weapons, to allow for less armor, more fun, more beginner friendly entries. Sadly, my engineer screwed up and now i need to get more funds in to try another process of finding the right material strengh to make the weapons work.

Before that, i put a lot of work into "what can be done / what is realistic / what is fun" Same as for every game creator in generel. And despite all that, i truly believe in the beauty of great animations coupled with physics coupled with logic and impact with a big focus on getting "fun" out of it.

Jouten, that is good to hear! I am from Germany and have (sadly) seen more single minded argumentation about the matter, than actual discussions and exercises. Literatur (imo again) only shows what other people thought about the issue. It is very similar to Kung Fu styles trying to best out which one is "the best" etc.

I will now proceed to watch your link about skullgirls, thanks for that.


1/12/2019 5:02:41 PM #7
+0

Posted By Marovec at 12:45 AM - Fri Jan 11 2019

I think this is the perfect time to repeat the tried and true Snipe statement:

"verisimilitude vs veracity"

They aren't attempting to recreate a hyper-realistic medieval combat simulator - they are making a game. While they do often look to reality for inspiration and continuity (they have SME's in a lot of areas working with the dev team), the ultimate goal in not hyper-realism, it's fun.

There are going to be any number of instances (in plenty of areas other than combat) where they sacrificed "this is how it is in the real world" in favor of something a bit more...entertaining.

Call it poetic license.

While I agree with this statement and support it in principle, one thing I will point out is that there's going to be a number of custom-made styles in the game from a variety of different sources and influences, for different weapons. A good many of those styles are going to be flamboyant, but some of those backers are going to want their styles to be as efficient and effective as possible. Artistic license is well and good, but I feel that if a style is known to be largely ineffective despite being flashy, it's not going to see a lot of use once more efficient styles start gaining exposure.

That said, a lot depends on how (or if) those styles are exposed to the public, and what CoE's base styles are like as well.


To touch Divinity, one must be prepared to brave Reality.

1/12/2019 5:12:39 PM #8
+0

Posted By Marovec at 06:45 AM - Thu Jan 10 2019

They aren't attempting to recreate a hyper-realistic medieval combat simulator - they are making a game. While they do often look to reality for inspiration and continuity (they have SME's in a lot of areas working with the dev team), the ultimate goal in not hyper-realism, it's fun.

There are going to be any number of instances (in plenty of areas other than combat) where they sacrificed "this is how it is in the real world" in favor of something a bit more...entertaining.

Call it poetic license.

Poetic license is fine, but I am sick of playing games where players jump back and forth and up and down to avoid being hit. Or attacks that hit more then one person or any of the other nonsense you see in some games.

I don't want to play some mystic theme park game. I don't necessarily want to play a real life combat simulator either, but I'd take the latter over the former.


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