COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
What is going to keep Anarchy at Bay?
+11

So,

I have many concerns but my single largest concern is my fellow gamer! I see the usual topics in this forum and it worries me a great deal!!!

Topic's like how can I own and wreck the face of people in combat with my elite skills!

Topic's like blood-lust and how its a good or bad mechanic because "Insert arguement" <---- Combat focused discussion!

How does CoE avoid turning into another game where all the non combat related mechanics are abused and treated only as utility for the only thing that matters "Combat!"

People point at the spirit lose and death being enough to stop the bloodshed, but I can already see from reading things in this forum it won't be enough.

There have been to many games that support griefing and separate the player base etc etc that the gaming community in general has devolved into a toxic wasteland of sludge.

I want to point at the most recent Sandbox game to release "Atlas" yes its created bye Ark developers and sure its designed to be pointless mindless griefing at its core. But there are about 50,000 of those people right now populating that game.... Watch some of the streamers like Burke Black or Bike man etc and while there not technically bad people they have certainly created a Zerg that is behaving with the most basic human pack mentality.

What keeps influential people from turning there large kingdoms into the same type of zerg that behaves with the same your not green or blue to me mentality you must die!

Sure we wont be able to see blue or green plaques over there head we wont even know if we are really talking to Joe... Unless of course we are on Team speak or Discord.

And you can bet the Hardcore gamer of this generation will be on voice com's.

This is my last great hope of a quality sandbox game, like Ultima Online was, I am getting old my health is failing and I so want to enjoy the last years of my life playing something that's more then mindless trash of kids running around killing each other!

The question on my mind are Law and Order, Karma and Reputation, and I know Caspian and crew always point towards us the community being the ones to develop law and order but its far to IMPORTANT to leave in the hands of the community!

We need more then just spirit lose to keep the griefers in check!


1/12/2019 4:52:10 PM #31
+12

Posted By Sulfurblade at 8:54 PM - Fri Jan 11 2019

I am retired Navy gulf war 1 and 2 so you can cut the overly dramatic real life politics please!!!

weird flex but ok

Posted By Sulfurblade at 8:54 PM - Fri Jan 11 2019

Now back to the topic this is a video game in a gaming generation filled with anarchists. I am not worried about the PK that's the last person I am worried about!

I am worried about the Zerg, the 500-1000 guys following a popular streamer who doesn't believe in civilization and as such neither does his followers who simply want to descend on the game like a swarm of locus and abuse every game mechanic for there griefing enjoyment! No one PK is sure slightly annoying but needed in the world to create risk vs reward. But Kingdom'(S) very plural of guys who just want to pillage and murder that's a completely different story!

You aren't listening to anyone in this thread that doesn't agree with you.

Where are these hordes of murder hobos being outfitted? Where are they getting their food or sleeping at night? Who supplies them? Who would continue to supply them?

Even zergs need infrastructure, lest they devolve into zombie hordes of nakeds running around without weapons, constantly too exhausted, dehydrated and starved to accomplish anything and being swatted away casually.

Once a zerg develops infrastructure and forms a camp, or a town or a city, then they stop being the anarch mob you fear, and they become a competing (albeit antagonistic) city-state ... which can in turn be besieged and razed if it pisses off the wrong kingdom.

As to what SBS plans to facilitate this civilization: CoE has already provided the means for Kings and kingdoms to begin building the world prior to launch and establish their bastion of protection long before these hordes can form.

1/12/2019 7:05:11 PM #32
+4

Posted By Sulfurblade at 10:22 AM - Sat Jan 12 2019

Posted By mickdude2 at 05:56 AM - Sat Jan 12 2019

If you're so worried about a zerg group, then your only defense is joining a bigger zerg group. Contrary to other games, zerg groups cannot be PvP-only. Someone needs to farm resources, craft weapons and armor. So, in effect, if a zerg group wants to "ruin" the game, they have to play the game.

This is the exact type of thinking that scares me. If your worried about a zerg join a bigger one!

And what comes along with this, war, pvp, endless cycle of violence. Because now you are part of the problem and not the solution.

Like Vucar above me pointed out, joining a bigger group isn't perpetuating an endless cycle of PvP. If you have just an army, you don't have a zerg group, you have some soon-to-be-starving peasants. They need food. They need water. They need arms, armor, shields, mounts, housing, clothing, and a million other little things. You have to produce these items (or have them produced for you), meaning any zerg army will require an equally large support network. And an army with a support network of noncombatants isn't a zerg group anymore, its a civilization.

1/12/2019 7:12:36 PM #33
+1

I expect, based on what the developers have said, that Zerg tactics will be like horde tactics have been historically. Scary and destructive and frustrating, but ultimately temporary. This game, unlike the games that are destroyed by zerging, has a deep logistics to it. A strong settlement or kingdom should be able to survive a Zerg just by being a hard nut to crack, one that would take more time than the short Zerg attention span and limited Zerg logistic tail would allow.

Yes, hordes are scary. Hordes can even sack cities. But hordes rarely destroy kingdoms or cultures. They are more like bad storms from which we can rebuild. Scarcity of resources and difficulty of transport should be all that is needed to favor organized government building over flashmob zerging.


Count of Arden, in the Duchy of Fioralba, in the Kingdom of Ashland, by the Grace of Haven.

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/17117/naw-the-duchy-of-fioralba

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/14124/naw-kingdom-of-ashland

1/12/2019 7:53:21 PM #34
+1

If each kingdom has 10k players not including npcs you could reasonably expect each kingdom to foster at least 2.5k-5k potential career soldiers with the rest of the populations being various professions. Even if all 6 kingdoms were battling in a royal rumble its still only 15k-30k troops fighting.

Not to mention a lot less PK's griefers, or trolls per capita then the majority of people. It is still yet to be seen how much of a presence they will be at launch or after the new car smell has worn off with the cost of burner sparks to keep it going.

Who really knows what lies for store for any of us when we log in after launch.

I just wish they would sticky re-occuring threads like this so they stop popping up every month multiple times.


                                      Anything worth having is worth fighting for                                       
1/12/2019 8:23:12 PM #35
+1

What is going to keep the griefers in check, as stated above we are. There are more of us then them and in this world logistics and supply are important. They need food, water, weapons, Armor, shelter and everything else needed to live. Without this they don't last long. Speaking for myself my town will have defenses and a defense force. Raiders that visit Knoxville will get a visit from my Marines. if they do have a base camp where they can get this stuff, they also have a settlement that is open to attack from the forces of the kingdom, and it will be hunted down. End of problem. Will there be griefers, yes, it makes the game more interesting. But I do not believe it is going to be as big a problem as some people think simply due to the logistics needed to survive here.


Mayor, Town of Knoxville, County of Talqamar, Duchy of Port Royale, Kingdom of Alesia. Friend Code: C3A1F2

A good commander knows when to fight, a great commander knows when not too.

1/12/2019 10:10:19 PM #36
+0

Posted By Sulfurblade at

This is my last great hope of a quality sandbox game, like Ultima Online was, I am getting old my health is failing and I so want to enjoy the last years of my life playing something that's more then mindless trash of kids running around killing each other!

Well damn, that's a sad reminder of our mortality! I wish you all the best, and may your health never fail.

I intend to do a lot of combat. If i get good at it, I will come defend you so you can play your way and have fun, and I can have fun by playing my way. Win Win!


Speak softly and carry a big stick.

1/13/2019 5:50:17 AM #37
+1

You use the word anarchy, I don't think you know what it means. This game it's impossible to be a pure anarchist, or be in a state of no rulers. So even then it's not bad if there isn't rulers.

If you're worry is people that are seeking conquest and barbarism. Give them a reason not to target you. Otherwise, the people that want to conquer will target you.. The game will foster trade. there is heavy costs to war that aren't seen in other games, because the growth potential when at peace is far higher than other games.

Atlus, Rust, Ark, and other survival games are designed to make people want to fight other people, be it resources are easier, the equipment to raid other peoples bases are easy to obtain and use. and various other reasons why people think that PvP is the way to go when you want something rather than to grind it.

In each of those games, grinding is so freaking boring that you want to fight to get the resources. The whole game rewards fighting, rather than being at peace and developing farther.

Also anarchy isn't the same as the word chaos, Thanks.

1/13/2019 7:23:01 AM #38
+0

Posted By Stoutheart at 12:23 PM - Sat Jan 12 2019

What is going to keep the griefers in check, as stated above we are. There are more of us then them and in this world logistics and supply are important. They need food, water, weapons, Armor, shelter and everything else needed to live.

This is very much temporary! If you think the current elite group of People who have spent good money to support CoE are going to remain the Majority when the game releases and goes live?!? I think your probally living a fairy tale!!!

From the moment the masses hit you will have 1000 various plebs in every kingdom trying to kill the king the dukes the counts and the barons. All the time because there going to want your titles... No king will stay in power for any period of time because of this and there will be no continuity of government to create any type of civilization! That is my bet, I do hope I am very wrong and I do hope us privileged few will somehow be able to keep the masses in check. But every other MMORPG I have played for the last 12 years tells me I am not being realistic.


1/13/2019 7:25:17 AM #39
+2

Posted By mickdude2 at 05:05 AM - Sun Jan 13 2019

>And an army with a support network of noncombatants isn't a zerg group anymore, its a civilization.

...or an oil company.

@OP, I've done a fairly large number of long answers to this thread in the past when someone's raised the concern. The short answer is players and mechanics. The long answer has been hashed out so many times on this forum that you'd probably find half a dozen threads on the topic with a simple forum search of the PvP tag. The long answer to the "- but what if...?" scenarios that follow those responses is: we can't tell until we have a game to test. Trust that the answers will be hashed out in time, when we have alpha/beta access to set these scenarios up and see how they play out.

On paper, the game's defences against the void look good. Testing will show where they lack (if they lack) and allow any gaps to be shored up as we close on release. All we can do in the meantime is speculate, and provide reassurance to those for whom the available information isn't enough to assuage doubt.


To touch Divinity, one must be prepared to brave Reality.

1/13/2019 7:25:23 AM #40
-2

Posted By Vucar at 8:42 PM - Fri Jan 11 2019

The same thing that keeps anarchy at bay in real life: civilization.

Leave the safety of your home and country, and go visit a place like Yemen, Syria, Congo or Somalia. These are some of the most dangerous places in the world, not because they are all lawless per se, but because of the rampant conflict and violence they are and have been historically filled with.

Not sure how me pointing out I have been to these places your pointing out as Retired Navy is a Weird flex??? And you are attempting to draw a picture that is more dramatic then it really is!


1/13/2019 1:49:36 PM #41
+3

Anarchy Bay sounds like a pirate settlement. :D

(weird segue but that's the first thing that popped into my head while reading the title)


1/13/2019 7:46:52 PM #42
+3

I believe what's going to keep it CoE from sinking into anarchy is the fact that you need other people and that each player will have their own goals. In Atlas, there are no real community mechanics and the skill system allows it so 4 or 5 people can cover everything you need. You only care about warm bodies so you can hold more land, fight, and produce more. No one has to trade in atlas, if you have enough bodies you can go get things yourself. In CoE, warm bodies will be needed as well but you need them to function outside of just being able to kill and gather.

Also, due to the death mechanic in CoE people will care about dying. Caring about death slows things down a lot. Not having a point base skill system means you can't you rush complex weaponry. You need to have a crafter, that crafter needs a gatherer, gatherer needs protectors, and everyone needs a place to live. In Atlas, you can live off of a raft or a small home without any real issues and crafting doesn't take time.

1/13/2019 11:43:19 PM #43
-2

Alright this whole thread is going a bit around in circles and so far I haven't seen a lot of points made against my belief that the economic deterrent of the Spark will not be enough to keep people playing nicely in the sandbox.

The Primary counter points are: It will be too hard for griefer's too work together as a horde outside of the spirit of civilization and be able too take on the Majority (Good guys are assumed the majority here)

Or there are enough game mechanic's that force cooperation so it will just automatically create civilization.

And the huge number of NPC's will protect the kingdom. (This assumes the good guys are in control)

So lets come at this from a different angle: Anyone that can remember the old days of Ultima Online when, blacksmiths would stand in the forge inside of Britania and do repairs to equipment for Tips in order to raise there skill, or just as a courtesy to customers!

People would line up to hand there armor to a stranger so they could repair it for them.

These people did this for free but they did assume they would get a tip. And they usually always did.

^^^^ How many of you think this could actually work inside of an MMORPG again among our current population of gamers!

  • Without scamming taking place
  • Or without a contract in place
  • Or without a Developer taking a hard line about what is considered "Bad Behavior"

I don't think our current population of gamer's could do what happened so smoothly back in 1997 without griefers, trolls, and scammers ruining it and causing so much "Fear" that people simply won't interact because they don't want to be the next person whose armor is stolen!

Yes I am cynical, but when players pack destroyers in eve full of high DPS weapons to be able to kill a mining barge via suiciding on it. That Miner's could not even feel safe mining worthless space rocks in an area of space they were suppose to be safe in....

When normal behavior of the masses is to shoot first when your ship in a corporation not listed as hostile passes into "YOUR" system while you are Camping the gate with several ships and a warp scrambler waiting to blow up ANYONE no matter who they are because its YOUR space! And this is the normal civilized play inside of Eve Online one of the only relevant sandbox's we have had in many years to gauge the behavior of todays MMORPG gamer inside of sandbox!

How can one NOT be Cynical....


1/14/2019 12:28:20 AM #44
+2

I never understand the " remember the old days" people. They remember all of the good times but forgot that ragers, scammers, trolls, etc existed as well..MMOs were never all blow jobs and lollipops. The best thing to do is be active in your community and try to lead by example and when that fails use the tools that CoE gives us to defense ourselves. How everything works up is always up to the community as well.

1/14/2019 12:51:26 AM #45
-3

Posted By Deftly at 4:28 PM - Sun Jan 13 2019

I never understand the " remember the old days" people. They remember all of the good times but forgot that ragers, scammers, trolls, etc existed as well..MMOs were never all blow jobs and lollipops. The best thing to do is be active in your community and try to lead by example and when that fails use the tools that CoE gives us to defense ourselves. How everything works up is always up to the community as well.

So you can believe as you like, but the normal community inside of UO before the inclusion of Trammel and Felucia was a community unlike any that have been seen since!

There were far less gamer's and the gamer's that existed had manners and behaved in game like they would have outside of the game. The anonymity of the internet hadn't as of yet created the atmosphere we see today where any body can be as brash and abrasive as they want without any fear of consequence!

If DayZ and Rust would be completely different games in the hands of gamer's in 1997...

The Normal greeting in game was Hail and well met sir or Ma'am depending on character gender. And people would make small talk and Role Play.

In today's game environment most player don't acknowledge each other and if they do notice each other it will typically lead to conflict.

This is learned behavior that has been the result of the gaming environment these players have been exposed too.

Is it there fault, no they for the most part have never experienced a game that wasn't centered around combat inside of an MMORPG.

The current MMORPG meta is either

PvP - Which is everything must revolve around the combat between players. PvE - Which is typically Raiding and using combat to kill mobs instead of players.

Both are somehow combat related.

CoE finally might bring us something more then the sum of combat as a game! But there hasn't been a game in years to teach most of the players how to behave or be part of community in this type of environment!

NO Deftly you can say that I am looking at the good ole days with rose color glass's if you wish. But can you point out any MMORPG in the last 15 years that wasn't filled with ragers, scammers, trolls, etc???

Perhaps your memory of MMORPG's is infact making the point I am trying to get across!!!


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