COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
My recent experiences in Atlas and how they relate to CoE
+20

Our guild started playing Atlas when it released about a month and a half ago. Atlas is an open world survival type game with only a few regional servers (similar to CoE). Each server is supposed to support 40,000 players.

We have been having fun and doing well in our little wars. We built up a solid base with a lot of defenses on our island. We had a few ally guilds on some of the nearby island. Then last night a mega alliance came at us with a bend the knee or get wiped message. We agreed to discuss it among our members and let them know today. I went to bed in a large base and woke up to a Discord message that we had nothing left on our island. It's one thing to die in a pvp fight, it's another to loose everything to a group that has around the clock coverage and vastly greater numbers.

I know that in survival games you have to expect that you may get taken out. Even with that knowledge, we are still going to loose most of our active players after this. The mega alliance already controls over half the map and will likely own it all before long. They are essentially killing the game as such a large maps needs a lot of players or it will start feeling like a figurative ghost town.

How would a mega alliance fit into CoE? They have enough people (they claim 1500 active in Atlas) that their siege weapons can continue to move non stop and logistics wont be a problem. CoE has a ten year story planned, but if a mega comes and runs off half the player base...

CoE is already setup for a system of paying taxes up the chain, so there will be a different expectation, but a lot of players arent going to be thrilled at the idea of bending the knee to an opposing force and would rather quit than support the conquering group through taxes.

If player retention is a main priority; how does this play out in CoE?


Kip from Fist of the Empire

Friend code: 72EC67

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2/4/2019 1:48:53 AM #1
+24

i think it's a valid concern KipFoe

I love survival sandboxes but am burned out on taking weeks/months to build something and being online every night to defend and then one night you don't (because you know, r/l happens) you come back and all is gone

i take some comfort in Caspian stating that a siege could take days, or even weeks - enough time to hopefully muster defenses, reinforcements etc

i've stopped playing games like conan, citadel, gloria victis etc for the very reasons you state

in fact as intriguing as atlas looked, i knew i would burn out on more of the same raiding while you're asleep crap so never even bothered getting it

am good with losing stuff and having an EPIC time in doing so - some of my most fun large scale pvp has been when we lost stuff rather than captured it - much like the 300 spartans kind of thing - i just want to have a chance at defending it is all


2/4/2019 7:20:13 AM #2
+1

First off, no idea why you posted this in XA forums. Surely this could have been posted in general discussions.

That aside, I have only read a bit into the game. But isn't it just a giant deathmatch? Isn't that like the whole point? I didn't think there was really that much else to it. Compared to say CoE.

Is the map of Atlas really that big either? Cause that's the main thing about any one group controlling anything. I played Rust like crazy, so while one group could control a server pretty easily, was only cause the map was so tiny really.

I can't see someone controlling even a whole duchy, with an iron fist that is. Just way too much land, everything takes way too long to move about. Having to worry so much about food/water.

While getting back to my Rust comment, so someone/some group wiped me. Which happened a lot. Sure I could easily just run off to another server and mostly did. Sure I also could have stood my ground, recruited others and fought back, which I sometimes did. But the whole point, you can just run away to another server. While unless I read wrong, Atlas there is many servers. While since nothing is a living breathing world, who cares about moving servers.

Could the same thing happen here? Very doubtful. 1500 people in CoE would be nothing. Would need thousands to really iron fist even one kingdom, let alone a whole server. While I can't see people running away. Maybe if they put nothing into their character/family line and were on an NA server, then maybe.

Personally I look forward to someone removing me. I'm going to be a thorn in that person side until the end of time. So much easier to remove someone in a deathmatch style game. Lack of places to really hide. I go guerilla warfare on their ass. Able to build underground will help as well. Having thousands of NPCs naturally help things along as well. You know, with the ageing so they can't just stay in their prime.

Really the two games are way too different to compare. Perma death/can't completely loot someone. Just those two things will do a world of difference.


2/4/2019 11:13:12 AM #3
+5

Shoulda bent the knee.

2/4/2019 3:13:52 PM #4
-1

The NPCs will gossip about your obvious war preparations way before you even began to march to your target destination.

Giving your enemies a heads up and time to bolster their defenses, maybe even launching a counter offensive on your settlements that will be devoid of soldiers.


Shroud to The Covenant of the Veil

2/4/2019 4:28:38 PM #5
+1

Moved to general forum.

D, summed up what I think about the topic already.

2/4/2019 6:36:05 PM #6
+1

Im sure it will happen in CoE with larger kingdoms vs smaller kingdoms/duchies/counties/cities.

Regardless, prolly should have bent your knee. Its easier to destroy from within than without.


                                      Anything worth having is worth fighting for                                       
2/4/2019 7:11:02 PM #7
+0

If a pitched battle with siege weapons is required to destroy buildings and sieges will take days or weeks instead of minutes (and maybe, there'll be even time-windows for attacks that are in prime-time like in Crowfall)... then most of the issue is already covered. Big landscape and viable AI (if it gets done, never seen anything of it till now) do another part here... But still, huge groups of players will do the same in CoE... but in most cases, they wont stay for long... so easiest is bending the knee and waiting and fighting them from within. And with construction/destruction, moving things etc being quite slow compared to some other games, the shown issues might be smaller again.


Friend Code: 30EF47

2/4/2019 8:11:16 PM #8
+6

The big issue in games like Ark/D&L/Atlas is the time scale things happen in. Always has been. The fact that it's possible to lose things is secondary to the fact that it can happen overnight - or in the space of an hour, if the enemy's well-prepared and the defenders are offline.

CoE's design should mitigate this issue a lot, from what we've heard so far. I don't know what kind of timescale we're looking at to break through a section of wall, but I'd expect it to take a while. Long enough that the defenders should know well in advance that the attacking force is approaching, or settling in to siege. Long enough that if they're online during that setup period, they're going to know siege gear is being set up - and that if they're not, they'll log in to a siege in progress, not a conquered fief. And certainly not a completely razed settlement with no trace of civilisation.

The other thing I'd look at is the incentive to raze versus occupation. Generally by the time a tribe in Ark is strong enough to raid, they're strong enough to raze and don't really need the resources from raiding to sustain themselves. They gain more competitively from destroying raid targets than leaving them intact, because any one of those targets could do the same thing to them if given incentive - or left to grow. Unless you know that castle over the hill houses a storied wizard with the capacity to call down meteors and rain destruction upon your lands, do you really need to dismantle the fort? Wouldn't it serve you better to take and use it?

As for mega-guilds running off players... the big test of integrity in this regard will come once we hit launch, if we survive that final month of Exposition when the flags come down. If we can keep the game together through the first three months of open release, I doubt the usual zerg and burn tactics will be able to kill the game. The rest really comes down to how hard reality comes down on those who came in with false expectations for the game, and whether they like it enough to stick with it despite the destruction of their illusions.


To touch Divinity, one must be prepared to brave Reality.

2/4/2019 9:21:25 PM #9
+1

If you think about it, CoE is set up as mega tribe vs mega tribe. Instead of tribes it will be kingdoms. In Atlas, you are a tiny tribe surrounded by others(people outside your tribe) don't care if you get wiped about you in the long run. Yes, you could have alliances but if a better alliance comes by it's really easy to pick up and move. In CoE, attacking a small group of people should prompt a response from the kingdom. You aren't just attacking the small guy, you are attacking the mega tribe.

2/4/2019 10:58:47 PM #10
-15

Is this another one of those "SARCASM ON" threads?

So, let me get this straight.

You made a post bragging "look all the stuff we accomplished by stealing other peoples stuff", then say; "The game, and COE by extension is going to die cause somebody stole mine".... LOL WUT?

I'm sorry, I'm failing to see your logic.

If losing stuff temporarily makes somebody "quit the game", then that someone would of probably quit anyways over something and anything else. IMHO - Good Riddance.

Those types of people, more than likely a very vocal minority, all they do is complain on the forums and try and rewrite the vision of the game, usually destroying balance and fun in the process.

As others pointed above, you are part of a Kingdom, whether you're a solo player or in a "mega-game-killing-guild", as you put it.

You are not alone in any case. If someone comes through and snatches your shit, take your anti-social ass to the local baron and he will do his job. Use the mechanics in place that are there to protect and avenge you. Or you can become emotionally unstable and rage quit. The choice is yours.


ERROR: Integrity.EXE is missing.

2/5/2019 6:28:57 AM #11
+6

Posted By Dleatherus at 5:48 PM - Sun Feb 03 2019

I love survival sandboxes but am burned out on taking weeks/months to build something and being online every night to defend and then one night you don't (because you know, r/l happens) you come back and all is gone

(Not directed at Dleatherus, quoting for reference.)

This is the thing. It takes a lot of time and effort to build things up and if that all gets destroyed in mere minutes then what's the point? It's just work and frustration. That's not a game, that's self-torture. It's fun until it happens to you, right?

Some of us have played these types of games before. We know that they could be better. They could offer a more balanced playing field between attackers and defenders. Make it fun! The trolls and griefers will shout down anything that might make that change happen, because their play is all about causing others pain.

CoE has made some effort to make PvP a valid, and enjoyable aspect of their game, and not just a FFA gankfest. I'm still wary to see how it works out but it's a step in the right direction. This is a change that needs to happen to maintain a dynamic world that isn't abandoned in a few months.

It's not all about you or me. It's about having a community, challenging them, and having them come back for another fight. Leave it more up to skill than resources. If they aren't going to have fun, if they don't have a hope of winning, why would they play? If they don't play, who are you going to fight?


2/5/2019 7:30:23 AM #12
+9

I suppose all I have to say to the OP is that I'm sorry you were tricked into buying an Ark clone. The basis of that games success comes from the very thing you hate.

The fact is some of these elements WILL be in Chronicles. I'm more worried about the quitters than the PvPers. I find it strange, that people would pay money for these games after they're advertised as a grief fest (albeit a shiny one) and then walk out scarred from what they had to go through.

And don't get me wrong, I feel bad for you. Offline raiding is one of the biggest issues in survival games, without a doubt. I also empathise with you because I've gone through it plenty of times. Which is exactly why I'll never play Ark, Atlas or Conan ever again, and why I want to do what I can to help prevent the issues from these poorly crafted sandboxes leaking into CoE and Oceanus.

If SBS botch it, I'll leave just as easily as I did with Ark. And so should everyone else. A game is worthless when it becomes a stressful and toxic chore.


My friend code: 4F7B5A

2/5/2019 8:01:03 AM #13
+7

Posted By Gunnlang at 02:20 AM - Mon Feb 04 2019

First off, no idea why you posted this in XA forums. Surely this could have been posted in general discussions.

That aside, I have only read a bit into the game. But isn't it just a giant deathmatch? Isn't that like the whole point? I didn't think there was really that much else to it. Compared to say CoE.

Is the map of Atlas really that big either? Cause that's the main thing about any one group controlling anything. I played Rust like crazy, so while one group could control a server pretty easily, was only cause the map was so tiny really.

The map of atlas is larger than the starting continent. A 1500 guild is a mega size for that game, most companies are around 100-200 pretty much like what this game is shaping up to be. Hell we still have many duchies that have less than 100 people. less than 50 even.

So this story is very real in the term of threat. All it takes is some group to come in with 300 or more people and they'll basically have free claim to anything they want generally. except like maybe 2 places currently on NA-E.

Your thought that 1500 people is nothing in this game is going to be largely unfounded. Only a few KINGDOMS currently have more members than that. These numbers that some of these groups are going to pull when it comes to this game, if you are in an unlucky spot you are going to come against them. Tough nuts if you don't have the numbers to defend against that. even if it's against the cultural, or they don't have a CB to actually get the claim. 1500 people with at least 100-200 people fighting up at one time is definitely a risk and will likely circumvent a lot of systems if the developers aren't planning for these groups to spontaneously pop up during expo, and launch.

The thing thats different about this game is that we have NPCs and OPCs, NPCs are in atlas but they are basically a piss poor attempt of something within atlas right now. This game we will have some persistance when off line. However, even with said persistence. And don't join in on the alliance that's offered by a large group.

Shit may happen to go south for you real fast in this game, if you don't have the numbers backing you up.

Get real for a moment Gunnlang, 1500 player guilds are going to be a massive political threat to anyone that is working near that type of organization.

Posted By Lord_Greystoke at 5:58 PM - Mon Feb 04 2019

Is this another one of those "SARCASM ON" threads?

So, let me get this straight.

You made a post bragging "look all the stuff we accomplished by stealing other peoples stuff", then say; "The game, and COE by extension is going to die cause somebody stole mine".... LOL WUT?

I'm sorry, I'm failing to see your logic.

If losing stuff temporarily makes somebody "quit the game", then that someone would of probably quit anyways over something and anything else. IMHO - Good Riddance.

Those types of people, more than likely a very vocal minority, all they do is complain on the forums and try and rewrite the vision of the game, usually destroying balance and fun in the process.

As others pointed above, you are part of a Kingdom, whether you're a solo player or in a "mega-game-killing-guild", as you put it.

You are not alone in any case. If someone comes through and snatches your shit, take your anti-social ass to the local baron and he will do his job. Use the mechanics in place that are there to protect and avenge you. Or you can become emotionally unstable and rage quit. The choice is yours.

Kingdoms, duchies, counties, are only worth their salt if they can't assert their authority. To think that the "kingdom" you spawn into has any merit to those that will try and play the game as they see fit. Most people are going to look at what currently exists and wonder what they can do to take advantage.

In the best case when these big guilds join will be to ignore the small as hell organizations that occupy a gigantically large area.

Notice how boardwaell has like 1100 people on their discord. about 40% you can safely say come from other parts of the community, (If not more) And people think that with these current numbers that they'll be able to go against a guild that is 100% player and is greater than the size of bordweall? They aren't aiming to take over the entire kingdom what they may want is either a duchy or a county or two. They'll get what they want. Unless the game is balanced in favor of the establishment to a huge degree that makes it really hard for those large groups to matter.

This is absolutely a solid concern, and yes if you aren't with a larger group and bet with the correct odds. You probably won't last very long.

All I can say is people in nobility need to figure out how to work with these large groups when they appear, if they do and when they do. If you don't work with them, you are a hindrance to the way they want to play they would assume you be gone.

Posted By Deftly at 4:21 PM - Mon Feb 04 2019

If you think about it, CoE is set up as mega tribe vs mega tribe. Instead of tribes it will be kingdoms. In Atlas, you are a tiny tribe surrounded by others(people outside your tribe) don't care if you get wiped about you in the long run. Yes, you could have alliances but if a better alliance comes by it's really easy to pick up and move. In CoE, attacking a small group of people should prompt a response from the kingdom. You aren't just attacking the small guy, you are attacking the mega tribe.

The only way for the current kingdoms to actually be the "mega companies" you're talking about is if they aren't able to be ignored. Right now, each and every single one, has far more territory than they can keep. You'll have to provide that it's honest and true that people will be seriously loyal to said kingdom, and not just a way in for giant guild Albatross, or paradigm. To take the throne. It's vastly unrealistic to have people believe that more than 5-10% will keep their stuff. through the first 6 months of the games release.

So either people need to have higher loyal numbers, or people are going to have to figure out how to get these large guilds to come in tow with what is going on. Right now this game's communities are infants, compared to the growth that will happen at beta, expo and launch.

There is several things they are going to need to look at depending on the direction they wish to take within this game. Either let people lose titles easily, before the true power houses form their kingdoms. Or they'll have to figure out something else that will gameify and not let people just /ignore those with jurisdiction.

2/5/2019 10:03:27 AM #14
+2

How do you feed 1500 characters? At the moment capital size city has minimum requirement at around population of 250 (to get a sense of scale)? I believe upkeep and logistics of your army/population will become a serious limitation for all sides.


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2/5/2019 11:16:30 AM #15
+3

Posted By Nahkahiiri at 05:03 AM - Tue Feb 05 2019

How do you feed 1500 characters? At the moment capital size city has minimum requirement at around population of 250 (to get a sense of scale)? I believe upkeep and logistics of your army/population will become a serious limitation for all sides.

They have 1500 characters to feed the same, most kindoms have less than 800 characters for the whole.... They have the same problem the 1500 characters do... it's not like that changes factors, they have 1500 characters of manpower, they have X, Y, Z number difference. They may require more resources because of the larger footprint, however they'll make room and displace those that don't have the ability to not be displaced. Unless of course there is strict mechanics preventing 1500 people from congregating together, from a different game, or within this game with a different objective than the current domain leader. If the terrain isn't able support that volume of people, then they'll just starve out the local people as if they where pests. Of course if there isn't anything to be done with them and they refuse to work with other people. 1500 people will be a force for and a great huge annoyance for a huge time till a bigger force is able to stop them. unless mechanics exist that make a 1500 player group unable to ignore the government or those that can assert authority. IF the developers do nothing about that large group. Lots of people will be displaced fast, as it where, everything you've bought can be lost or destroyed.

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