COMMUNITY - FORUMS - AGING & DYING
Permadeath Crime & Punishment
+2

I was chatting with someone in discord, and a topic came up.

What’s to prevent a kingdom from punishing criminals by taking them out to permadeath depth, and having them walk the plank?

If anything.


4/4/2019 5:53:32 PM #1
+5

As far as we know, involuntary transport (kidnapping and dragging of people) won't allow that. We don't know the mechanic -- but probably works like:

(1) bounty token allows for seizure of a character and involuntary transportation of the character to a specific destination; (2) that destination is likely to be a courthouse; (3) courthouses are buildings and, as far as we know, there are no ship versions of buildings (or, if there are, no floating courthouses).

So, no permadeath by walking the plank because you can't get the character to the plank without their consent. Of course, if someone wants the experience of walking the plank, you can probably set that up for them.


Count of Frostale, in the Duchy of Fioralba, in the Kingdom of Ashland, by the Grace of Haven. The above opinions are mine alone and do not reflect those of my Kingdom or Duchy.

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/17117/naw-the-duchy-of-fioralba

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/14124/naw-kingdom-of-ashland

4/4/2019 6:10:57 PM #2
+0

Posted By Beathan at 12:53 PM - Thu Apr 04 2019

As far as we know, involuntary transport (kidnapping and dragging of people) won't allow that. We don't know the mechanic -- but probably works like:

(1) bounty token allows for seizure of a character and involuntary transportation of the character to a specific destination; (2) that destination is likely to be a courthouse; (3) courthouses are buildings and, as far as we know, there are no ship versions of buildings (or, if there are, no floating courthouses).

So, no permadeath by walking the plank because you can't get the character to the plank without their consent. Of course, if someone wants the experience of walking the plank, you can probably set that up for them.

One of the questions that came up in discord is, once at the court, does the court have the power to restrict your motion sufficiently to then have you on that ship at sea? For the purpose of permadeath.

Like can you be sentenced to row a galley? Then get sunk?


4/4/2019 6:17:48 PM #3
+2

So you can only take them to court... well, no problem!

  1. Put the courthouse on a boat.

  2. Failing that, put the courthouse on an island that you must cross deep water to get to :P


4/4/2019 6:20:18 PM #4
+3

Posted By DanielBlack at 11:10 AM - Thu Apr 04 2019

Posted By Beathan at 12:53 PM - Thu Apr 04 2019

As far as we know, involuntary transport (kidnapping and dragging of people) won't allow that. We don't know the mechanic -- but probably works like:

(1) bounty token allows for seizure of a character and involuntary transportation of the character to a specific destination; (2) that destination is likely to be a courthouse; (3) courthouses are buildings and, as far as we know, there are no ship versions of buildings (or, if there are, no floating courthouses).

So, no permadeath by walking the plank because you can't get the character to the plank without their consent. Of course, if someone wants the experience of walking the plank, you can probably set that up for them.

One of the questions that came up in discord is, once at the court, does the court have the power to restrict your motion sufficiently to then have you on that ship at sea? For the purpose of permadeath.

Like can you be sentenced to row a galley? Then get sunk?

Probably not without a prison mechanic. Another reason not to have a prison mechanic. Then again, if there is a prison mechanic, it will likely operate similarly -- there will be a prison building and a person sentenced to prison would be sent to and confined in the building and the building would likely be land-bound.

Rowing a galley was a traditional punishment. It could be a cool punishment in COE, I suppose. However, galleys should be expensive -- too expensive to waste as an execution method. Galleys should also require more than just one rower and, if rowed by shackled prisoners, should require some guards -- all of whom would sink with the galley unless there was another ship to rescue them, and that could go wrong in so many ways.


Count of Frostale, in the Duchy of Fioralba, in the Kingdom of Ashland, by the Grace of Haven. The above opinions are mine alone and do not reflect those of my Kingdom or Duchy.

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/17117/naw-the-duchy-of-fioralba

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/14124/naw-kingdom-of-ashland

4/4/2019 7:11:49 PM #5
+2

Posted By Dekul at 11:17 AM - Thu Apr 04 2019

So you can only take them to court... well, no problem!

  1. Put the courthouse on a boat.

  2. Failing that, put the courthouse on an island that you must cross deep water to get to :P

That would likely be considered an exploit and closed. First, there is no reason to think that a courthouse could be on a bluewater ship. Second, if the courthouse were on the island, the transportation mechanic could be set up to prevent throwing a person overboard while in transit.

Permadeath is an extreme consequence and should not be available, especially if players have the power to run the legal system. If it is, people with the right kind of account (noble account) could have the power to permakill anyone in their jurisdiction just by being a little creative about defining crimes. Not desirable.

Balance requires flexibility in defining crimes and punishments -- but limits on the severity of punishment to prevent them from being gamebreaking. Both prisons and permadeath would be gamebreaking. And they are unnecessary. Other alternative punishments can be robust enough.


Count of Frostale, in the Duchy of Fioralba, in the Kingdom of Ashland, by the Grace of Haven. The above opinions are mine alone and do not reflect those of my Kingdom or Duchy.

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/17117/naw-the-duchy-of-fioralba

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/14124/naw-kingdom-of-ashland

4/4/2019 7:50:24 PM #6
+4

Not specifically kingdom or law related but I had a thought similar to this sea perma-death topic. What happens if a ship owner and his crew are meant to be taking you across the sea as you paid but in the middle he stops the ship, takes your stuff and throws you off invoking permadeath. Thats even more fucked because since after permadeath you mechanically won't be able to put bounty tokens on him because your a new character aka no witness. Sure eventually he would be known enough for players to steer clear but imagine how many fall to this in the meantime. Then when hes known enough he can remodel the ship, throw on disguises and BOOM. New ship captain.


idk bout the muffine man

4/4/2019 8:05:30 PM #7
+1

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 12:50 PM - Thu Apr 04 2019

Not specifically kingdom or law related but I had a thought similar to this sea perma-death topic. What happens if a ship owner and his crew are meant to be taking you across the sea as you paid but in the middle he stops the ship, takes your stuff and throws you off invoking permadeath. Thats even more fucked because since after permadeath you mechanically won't be able to put bounty tokens on him because your a new character aka no witness. Sure eventually he would be known enough for players to steer clear but imagine how many fall to this in the meantime. Then when hes known enough he can remodel the ship, throw on disguises and BOOM. New ship captain.

That actually happened a bit to Irish immigrants to the US during the Famine. So it isn't far-fetched at all.

However, even without a bounty token, you have player memory acting as the spirit of nemesis through reincarnation.


Count of Frostale, in the Duchy of Fioralba, in the Kingdom of Ashland, by the Grace of Haven. The above opinions are mine alone and do not reflect those of my Kingdom or Duchy.

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/17117/naw-the-duchy-of-fioralba

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/14124/naw-kingdom-of-ashland

4/4/2019 8:37:05 PM #8
+0

Then said sea captain is punished by having his character executed once, loses about a month of play time if his spirit loss was bad enough, and he goes right back to business as usual.

This is why there must be punishments available that fit the crime.

I expect that the leadership would rise up against leaders that abused the punishments they had access to, so the punishments must be available to be equal to, or worse than, the benefit from the criminal activities.


4/4/2019 8:43:57 PM #9
+4

@DabielBlack Honestly I just think sea permadeath is a bad mechanic and asking for exploits. I get they want to make it dangerous but I don't think permadeath has to be the call.

I feel like having a washed up on the beach mechanic would be pretty interesting and deterring as a danger mechanic. All your gear is gone, you have no map to tell you where you are and now need to find civilization, alone. Fending off all the beasties of the wild with nothing but your voluptuous cheeks in a world so vast. You could literally be anywhere while at the same time, it's not permadeath.

Maybe not anywhere but it would still be a massive side-track and pain to get back home but since your not perma-dead you can use bounty tokens and actually pursue the county, raise his infamy so eventually he won't be able to disguise and bam, his a goner.


idk bout the muffine man

4/5/2019 12:36:47 AM #10
+0

Posted By DanielBlack at

I was chatting with someone in discord, and a topic came up.

What’s to prevent a kingdom from punishing criminals by taking them out to permadeath depth, and having them walk the plank?

If anything.

Congratulations, you killed the character, and the player will just make a new character and do the same thing again.

On top of the other issue of not being able to move a player against their will.

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 2:50 PM - Thu Apr 04 2019

Not specifically kingdom or law related but I had a thought similar to this sea perma-death topic. What happens if a ship owner and his crew are meant to be taking you across the sea as you paid but in the middle he stops the ship, takes your stuff and throws you off invoking permadeath. Thats even more fucked because since after permadeath you mechanically won't be able to put bounty tokens on him because your a new character aka no witness. Sure eventually he would be known enough for players to steer clear but imagine how many fall to this in the meantime. Then when hes known enough he can remodel the ship, throw on disguises and BOOM. New ship captain.

That's why you write a contract to reimburse the family in case of death during transit.


Count LizenÇace VeLeîjres of Mydra's Crossing, VII of the order of the IX.

Order of IX

4/5/2019 12:49:43 AM #11
+0

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 07:43 AM - Fri Apr 05 2019

I feel like having a washed up on the beach mechanic would be pretty interesting and deterring as a danger mechanic. All your gear is gone, you have no map to tell you where you are and now need to find civilization, alone. Fending off all the beasties of the wild with nothing but your voluptuous cheeks in a world so vast. You could literally be anywhere while at the same time, it's not permadeath.

Someone talked about that idea ages back. Really it would work even better, in some ways. Washing up even on the main continent, would be still hell dangerous. Most likely have very limited food/water, have no clue where you are. Basically having to bush bash to hopefully come across a road, then hoping the town isn't too far away. While hoping you follow the road in the right direction.

Makes the game way more interesting over straight up perma death. Just seems like a lazy mechanic really. Would also be cool for people around the coastline. If enough people kept washing up on their shore. Either bandits will be waiting for them or people could setup to help them out. Creating more storyline.


4/5/2019 12:50:05 AM #12
+2

Posted By DanielBlack at 12:10 PM - Thu Apr 04 2019

Posted By Beathan at 12:53 PM - Thu Apr 04 2019

As far as we know, involuntary transport (kidnapping and dragging of people) won't allow that. We don't know the mechanic -- but probably works like:

(1) bounty token allows for seizure of a character and involuntary transportation of the character to a specific destination; (2) that destination is likely to be a courthouse; (3) courthouses are buildings and, as far as we know, there are no ship versions of buildings (or, if there are, no floating courthouses).

So, no permadeath by walking the plank because you can't get the character to the plank without their consent. Of course, if someone wants the experience of walking the plank, you can probably set that up for them.

One of the questions that came up in discord is, once at the court, does the court have the power to restrict your motion sufficiently to then have you on that ship at sea? For the purpose of permadeath.

Like can you be sentenced to row a galley? Then get sunk?

No. The whole point of not having a prison system is to prevent characters from having the mobility of their characters restricted for long periods of time. So you can't be sentenced to row a galley. If anything, they'll make it so that your movement can only be restricted upon arrest, and only for a limited period of time and as long as you are not moving away from the courthouse that issued the bounty token.


4/8/2019 11:29:51 PM #13
+0

If I'm not mistaken, when you are sentenced for a crime (if caught and convicted) you go to 'jail' which I don't know if you actually see. The character ages the appropriate number of years based on their sentence and then are released. I'm not sure that is a deterrent in itself, I have also heard that a player will be locked out of the character for a time and when they return they will have aged the sentence amount. I think it's the first though.


Joshua E. Furtado

4/9/2019 12:45:32 AM #14
+2

Posted By mathematician at 5:29 PM - Mon Apr 08 2019

If I'm not mistaken, when you are sentenced for a crime (if caught and convicted) you go to 'jail' which I don't know if you actually see. The character ages the appropriate number of years based on their sentence and then are released. I'm not sure that is a deterrent in itself, I have also heard that a player will be locked out of the character for a time and when they return they will have aged the sentence amount. I think it's the first though.

They aren't going to lock you out of your character. They probably won't age your character either. It's just going to be spirit loss. It'll be the same as if your character suffered spirit loss from dying in that it's just going to make your character perma-die younger.

That said, there are other possible penalties that might accompany or replace the spirit loss. Fines have been mentioned, but there are others to speculate about, like community service, or exile.


4/14/2019 5:28:48 PM #15
+0

...

Wrong thread when replying after logged in. I am sorry!


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