In my opinion Punishment should be determined by the laws the players/npc in power set. Some places will have relaxed laws, other places will have strict laws. I do not believe the punishment of murder should be be a one size fits all by the developer. Be that short//long spark loss, actual imprisonment, execution, the seizure of property in compensation, etc. By allowing the people in power be that players/npc to make the choices of what laws are laws, what the punishment for those laws are, etc allows people more options to settle in areas they agree with the laws those have set.

On a side note. I do believe their should be a sort of on screen indicator of the Kingdom, Duchies, County, Settlement you are in. Each with a list of Laws enacted. This way when traveling all you have to do is look at the tab, review the laws before proceeding to either follow or disregard the law. This way there is no argument of not knowing what laws are on the book in any given area.

Plenty of people will have many different opinions on laws in terms of government from far left, to far right on the traditional spectrum and those people should have the ability (regardless of my personal opinion) to enact whatever type laws they want. Be that just or unjust laws, as many people will determine if the law is just or unjust by their own personal opinion.

If you know a certain law is over zealous in a certain area. You many look at it as a deterrent to not break that law or you may look at it as if I do the alleged crime I may want to make sure I do not get apprehended because the punishment is to harsh.

If prisons are a thing (and I hope they won't be), they should be realistically simulated. That should make them extremely expensive to build and even more expensive to operate. I suppose costs could be saved by forcing the prisoners to work (but then we would have slavery -- and that is apparently not a thing in COE) or by not feeding them or treating their illnesses (but then they would die and it would just be a slow and annoying form of capital punishment). Even then, the cost of guarding them should be high -- and those guards would be better employed (1) catching more criminals and (2) guarding borders and trade routes.

And the PC play isn't any better. The Stanford Prison Experiment led to people behaving horribly when assigned to be guards. Imagine how much worse people would be if they could say "c'mon, it's just an online game."

@Beathan if it's just some insane debuff to have a prison that just drains the economy I'll just skip it and exile criminals instead and focus all that money on infrastructure to make up for any population loss.

Posted By Lord_Greystoke at 12:20 PM - Fri May 03 2019

An actual prison sounds absurd. No other profession is punished by being locked out from playing their game when practiced. This is where the idea of an actual prison bleeds out of the game and punishes the player, not the character, in the worst way possible.

I think the SBS would actually want their players to play their game, not have to log off and go play something else because they're locked in prison for any amount of time.

If I'm not playing your game SBS, that means I'm not spending money on it. Period.

This is why I think optional prison time to make reparations working for the crime should also be implemented in the stead of player set punishments for each law be they monetary fines, execution, or as @Snipehunter suggested exile for more lenient rulers/tribes.

Basically I think the rulers should set each law with either a fine, exile, or for the highest crimes: execution with extra spirit loss.(maybe not outright loss but as a Fame/Infamy multiple)

Then if a criminal is charged with a fine or exile they should be able to choose working off the fine if they cant pay, or to redeem themselves so no longer exiled. On the OTHER end they should also get to choose execution with the extra spirit loss so they can keep playing without being hindered with fines, exile, or an escape bounty on their heads.

I think this would be a solution for both those that don't want to lose their autonomy, as well as those that don't want as steep a spirit loss for being arrested for crime.

Also if the Devs can work in a system to restore losses from being framed for a crime if proven innocent that would make the general law abiding players happy Im sure as well as giving reason to private investigators.

Another good reason an execution could give Fame/Infamy multiple boost instead of outright loss, beyond that of normal death, is say you were tasked with assassinating another kingdoms ruler and finish the task but were caught. In the kingdom you were caught the execution should raise Infamy while in your home kingdom you should have increased Fame.

So the execution isn't boosted on your death at the execution but making you more Famous/Infamous, increasing your story point gain as well as spirit loss on subsequent deaths.

I feel this would make being a petty criminal 'griefer' less fun just resulting in fines/exile while making them shoot for the BIG crimes for story points instead.

Soulbound has always said "play the game you want to play" so I put it on Soulbound if someone wishes to play as a criminal then this should be an enjoyable way to play. Kings need something to be scared of and the only way to do this is to empower the criminal element. If you don't then the Kings will never fear criminals and just shrug it off as an annoyance, not a major problem. Forums are all talking about love and kisses and friendly playstyle however for CoE to be great it needs an equal evil side as well. This evil side needs to be equally as strong as the Kings armies are or the criminals will just be endlessly hunted and killed but 100's of the Kingsmen and the common criminal will not grow to be feared.

If someone has a large enough bounty it should be possible to execute them and it's permadeath. Make it a high bounty so it doesn't do away with people wanting to play criminally but it'll cement the idea that if you do wanna play HARDCORE criminal then when you are indeed caught you're toast.

I mean we want realism don't we, in the real medieval world you'd have lost your head and be dead and those who aren't criminals are the ones who carry on living. So if your infamy is really really REALLY bad then beheading/permadeath would be fine IMO. This also gives hardcore criminals a more interesting gameplay experience cos they'll try harder to not get caught and will genuinely be scared of the law enforcers.

I mean let's say for example the criminal has attacked and killed other players illegally and looted them, each time a player dies they lost some of their own game time, sooo... if the criminal has caused the loss of 1 year of game time for other people (combined together) and they then get caught, that should be a high enough bounty to execute them and have permadeath.

Posted By Stormbreaker at 1:47 PM - Tue May 21 2019

If someone has a large enough bounty it should be possible to execute them and it's permadeath. Make it a high bounty so it doesn't do away with people wanting to play criminally but it'll cement the idea that if you do wanna play HARDCORE criminal then when you are indeed caught you're toast.

This is already effectively planned. We know that with the more crimes you commit, the higher your spirit loss on death. That means at a certain threshold, it may only take one capture and kill for a career criminal to have permadeath.

As someone who expects to be involved in a lot of deviance, this is perfectly acceptable to me.

Posted By Stormbreaker at 4:47 PM - Tue May 21 2019

If someone has a large enough bounty it should be possible to execute them and it's permadeath. Make it a high bounty so it doesn't do away with people wanting to play criminally but it'll cement the idea that if you do wanna play HARDCORE criminal then when you are indeed caught you're toast.

This is unfair to think a single execution should cause permadeath based on bounty (other than being executed and not having enough spirit left to pull the 'silver cord') for 2 reasons: one if a criminal wrongs a ruler they have the ability to place a massive bounty on their head, and two this is already solved with the Infamy system multiplying the criminals spirit loss which will cause permadeath sooner but not instantly.

Having executions increase Infamy would be more than enough (as well as having the regular death spirit loss)

We need to punish those griefing not those breaking the law as Im sure many kingdom contracts may be requesting players to commit acts in another kingdom that would constitute a crime (spying, spreading dissent, causing riots, etc).

Now I do agree that an UNPAYED bounty should result in exile up to execution after a period of time. I assume the easiest way to handle bounties would be a 'forced' contract that the accused must pay off with savings or, I think, be able to choose labor or the exile/execution right up front. Just running away from a bounty should have Infamy tacked to it as well, maybe more than the Infamy from if you were exiled/executed.

Posted By Emperor Spriggan at 12:16 AM - Wed May 22 2019

This is unfair to think a single execution should cause permadeath based on bounty (other than being executed and not having enough spirit left to pull the 'silver cord') for 2 reasons: one if a criminal wrongs a ruler they have the ability to place a massive bounty on their head,

By bounty I meant the severity determined by the game itself. Commit a crime the game should have determined how bad that was and how much spark should be removed if caught.

Infamy as far as I am aware continues on even if you have paid the price of your crime cos essentially you're still a bad person in everyones eyes cos of the things you've already done. So when someone does something bad the sheriffs or whoever it is can issue bounty tokens for whatever price they want to but I was never under the impression players could decide how severe the punishment would be, the game mechanics would determine whether the execution would be instant permadeath if the amounted crimes were bad enough.

if someone is guilty he shall come to prison. That is a good idea. Also let him live in prison, work and form his soul, and the free will to escape. I hope, I will have the same opinion when I will be set in prison for false accuse.

Posted By Snipehunter at 04:43 AM - Wed Apr 24 2019

We talk about crime and prison a lot in the office, because it's both an unsettled question in the game, and a really interesting challenge as a designer to address.

While it's not guaranteed to be a part of our justice system at all, one idea that I found sort of attractive actually deals with the idea of spirit loss and leaving prison. I'll present it as a thought experiment for you all to consider:

You are a murderer, whether by grim dance of fortune or intentional malice, you have unjustly ended the life of another mann. While pondering your fate, you are apprehended, brought before a judge, tried, and convicted of the crime. Luckily(?) for you, rather than facing execution, you are sentenced to 25 years of incarceration and brought to the kingdom's prison dungeon. Guards march you through the a stone archway that curiously has no door or gate or bars. They remove your restraints, and turn and walk away. On the inside of the archway are etched the following:

"A sentence given is a sentence earned"

The other inmates explain your fate: You can remain in the prison, serve out your sentence, and perhaps even find early release through service. Or, you can simply walk out through the archway. If you do, every day you should have served is stripped from your spirit and your status as an exile is permanently cemented: You will be attacked on sight by any officer of the crown that sees you.

Do you walk away, or do you serve your time?

I made a huge post about this with this exact same idea, describing it as a "prison toll gate" ages ago. Hope you took some inspiration from that. .. Hope you guys have made it work. Sounds awesome. It gives deviants a very unique gameplay in the prisons. To be able to build their criminal network, it's a big part of being a good criminal.

Arise o thread long since dead, haunt thou the front page once more...

Not the worst necro I’ve seen but still.

Posted By chipla at 1:24 PM - Sat Aug 24 2019

Arise o thread long since dead, haunt thou the front page once more...

Not the worst necro I’ve seen but still.

IMO necroing means they at least used the search feature to see if a topic has been previously discussed, and rather than making a duplicate thread, they reply to the proper thread.

In my opinion necro is the better alternative than making a duplicate thread.

Necros should be cheered, not frowned upon. every dumbass can make dupes, not everyone takes the time to necro a relevant thread.

If necro gets so frowned upon we may as well delete old threads and remove the search function. You know what, maybe we just talk on discord only and remove the chat history from discord. Only things that are said right in the moment are important right?

trying to escape a prison might be a cool mini-game concept