COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
Tropical Wetlands cut off from the ocean?
+8

The Tropical Wetlands on Oce are almost completely cut off from the ocean by shallows. In the entire two Duchies of the biome there is literally only 1 single settlement with coastal water access (Stormpearl/Bridgecross/Little Grave), and it's a hamlet...

Does this really mean that we will have no way to accomodate large/deep-hulled ships? To'resk are meant to be traders and sailors, but it looks like we will have almost no access to large ships at all?

I hope I'm missing something here, but I can find nothing solid on this issue. I have people wanting to build settlements focused on shipbuilding and trade, and no way for them to know which settlements will allow them to do this?

Looking at top/notable professions all across the biome shows no sailors except the ones in that hamlet mentioned above, and fishermen here and there (could just be fishing inland), but it's nowhere near convincing enough for people to plop their settlements down.

Comparing to other servers, this doesn't seem to be the case at all, there is plenty of coastal access.

So I have a few questions-

Do the shallows completely cut off large ships from reaching all the settlements in the Oce Tropical Wetlands?

If so, then why are none of the settlements ON the shallows? How are we supposed to operate as traders and sailors?

If not, how are supposed to tell where to place people who want to take part in these aspects of the game, that are so important to our tribe?


8/22/2019 10:14:42 AM #1
+1

I would hope this is unintended because aren't the To'resk known for their sailing capabilities? Surely they aren't rowing out in dingy's for miles to board their vessels, Could you imagine embarking on a diplomatic mission (another To'resk trait) and arriving by row boat.... you're not exactly going to be starting the conversation in a good place.


8/22/2019 10:18:28 AM #2
+1

To'Resk can build out over the shallows. So their ports and piers would extent out to the edge of the shallows if they wanted, then dock the big ships out there.

8/22/2019 10:18:36 AM #3
-4

Well, I'm told there's mountainous regions with no stone, why not wetlands with no access to deep water?


You must all be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to get angry. JAMES 1:19 NLT

8/22/2019 10:19:24 AM #4
+3

Posted By Taymuraz at 8:18 PM - Thu Aug 22 2019

To'Resk can build out over the shallows. So their ports and piers would extent out to the edge of the shallows if they wanted, then dock the big ships out there.

The only problem is the shallow extends out so far based on all the scaling information we have seen so far.


8/22/2019 11:23:49 AM #5
+0

It does seem to go a long way. I am hoping the To'Resk get some special buildings to accommodate it. Like a shipwrights up on stilts with a long slipway to the ocean or something. Special To'resk shipwright stuff would fit with their tribe and be a good buff too.

8/22/2019 4:23:55 PM #6
+1

TLDR: Shallows in Tropical Wetlands "ruined" my plans as well but looking at the map and thinking about it provides a much more interesting situation to build towards during expo to make my plans actually work.

As a count, my basic plan since map voting was to go To'resk and place on the coast with a port town. 75% chance of being in the Tropical Wetlands since that biome fits my likes better and a 25% in the tidal marshes. When I first saw the maps and the swallows along the coast without any direct access to the ocean for Towns+ right out of the gate, my first reaction was "F- that. I guess I'll go Tidal Marsh To'resk now." As an unaffiliated Count that's pretty easy for me to do. So I understand feeling upset by this turn of events.

I still want a port town, but I just have to create it now. Even selecting a coastal town with ocean access didn't guarantee a port in the town unless it had the Port industry. You would have most likely needed to build a port anyways. It'l just cost more EP to do it on the shallows as many of the towns are close to 8+ parcels away from the ocean (by my rudimentary photoshop grid overlay measuring system as estimation) and you would need to build out to the ocean to connect it to the town. Or build a hamlet out on the edge of the shallows at the ocean to act as the port for the town and send boats with goods back and forth to the town. Much like Ancient Rome being back from the coast and them having a coastal port that shipped goods up the Tiber to the city.

But looking more at the Tropical Wetlands with their shallows along the coast has become more and more appealing. The To'resk build on stilts and all the shallows make for a great platform to build out the Town into an interesting canal like city. And that's got me excited. I can transform that Wetlands into a Port during expo and the canal city layout will be more interesting. The maps weren't going to suit everyone's plans and everyone needs to be adaptable to what the maps gives them, opportunity to make an interesting story. My average, quite frankly mundane, port idea is now an opportunity to create a vastly more interesting canal port town.


8/22/2019 7:10:06 PM #7
+7

The To'Resk possess the technology to build out over shallow water, explicitly. It's an advantage they gained in dealing with the nature of their home biomes. So while the core of a To'resk settlement will always be anchored on land, and technically doesn't have true coastal access, most of the cities on the "coast" could very easily host a port with the incorporation of just a couple of parcels or so, and the addition of a pier or quay that puts docking space at the deep water.

That's definitely not true of all the settlements at the edges of the shallows, of course. Sometimes those shallows extend outward pretty far, and in other cases the "shallows" are actually deeper than you'd expect. At least in the cases of the shallows turning out to be several meters deep you can actually make a port work there anyway, but you'll have to sound the shallows to figure that out, in-game.

Hope that helps!


  • Snipehunter
8/22/2019 8:54:42 PM #8
+2

Snipe, thanks for you reply. I always enjoy reading your posts on here, you're always helpful and knowledgeable. But this time, I think there's a hole in your explanation.

The world is supposed to be 'lived in' right? We hear that all the time. But these To'resk have never used their technology to build a pier? Not one port? not a single one in two duchies? The only To'resk who live on an archipelago? The tribe described as merchants and sailors? The wetlands settlements on other servers have coastal access, our shallows just seem to be so much more significant.

Now, putting that aside, is there any way you can give any indication on how big an issue these shallows are? i.e. check 10 random settlements in the wetlands and tell us how many COULD have ports if we built them in game? Right now, i don't understand the scale of this problem; do 90% of these towns have access? Do 0%?

I'm the only To'resk Duke on Oce, and my counts and mayors are looking at other options, because they simply DON'T KNOW if their plans can happen in my duchy anymore. Please help me give them SOMETHING. These maps don't show them any usable info to make their decision upon. I can't ask them to put their hard earned money into a town/county, and just hope it all works out.


8/23/2019 12:06:24 AM #9
+5

Just to say it plainly; the map isn't lying to you: If they don't possess the coastal water resource, they do not currently have access to the coast.

As I said before, the To'resk have the ability to build out onto the shallow parcels they control, even if they don't necessarily have the inclination to spend the resources, labor, or money to make it happen without reason.

The customary practice though is to accept that the anchorage for deep draft boats is further out from the shore. Cargo is shuttled back and forth between the vessels and the settlement using smaller craft. Oft times, the owners of small rowboats and other craft that can navigate shallows like this historically make a living by offering their services to anchoring vessels.

Posted By Kov at

Do the shallows completely cut off large ships from reaching all the settlements in the Oce Tropical Wetlands?

Likely, but not necessarily so. Once you get away from the shore there are no borders to how you how deep each submerged parcel is; they range from a few cm below sea level to several meters below sea level, with the bulk of them being between 0.4m and 1.4m below sea level, give or take. This means that in most cases it's not deep enough for an ocean going vessel, or even a barge.

If so, then why are none of the settlements ON the shallows? How are we supposed to operate as traders and sailors?

All settlements the To'resk build are anchored to dryland at some point. They are not the Mydarri and while they have more experience dealing with the shallows here, they aren't interested in an entirely off-land existence. The size of the settlement then determines whether or not those cities would control enough of the shallows to build a port. Based on what you've said, that puts the bulk of the To'resk settlements facing the sea on the other side of shallows too extensive to build a port on with the parcels they currently control. Hence, no ports.

If not, how are supposed to tell where to place people who want to take part in these aspects of the game, that are so important to our tribe?

if a port is something you view as necessary, and I can definitely understand that feeling -- if I was settling next to the coast I'd want to make sure ships could reach me too -- then the best plan is to acquire the parcels necessary to build piers or quays out to an anchorage. This is certainly within the realm of reason, and even relatively easy for the To'resk, but those piers are going to be exposed to the elements and prone to high maintenance.

It's not necessary to build a port in order to deal with sea trade, though. You can, alternately, allow the more typical solution to this problem (shuttling cargo with smaller vessels) to play out as it will naturally should you elect not to intervene. With shallows like this you're never going to have a nice sheltered harbor, so it may not be worth the cost of the constant maintenance building out into the shallows will incur; the resident To'resk certainly didn't believe it was worth the effort.

Hope that helps! :)


  • Snipehunter
8/23/2019 1:53:59 AM #10
+0

my concern with this and every biome actually is the seeming lack of a realistic river system, we have the watershed runoff rivers but its like there's no spring fed tributaries feeding larger rivers, I'm not even talking about the giant rivers like the Mississippi or the amazon or the Nile, but smaller sized like the Tigris or Hudson. we get short watersheds instead of springs overflowing valley basins and eroding their way to the coast.


8/23/2019 2:41:18 AM #11
+2

Posted By Snipehunter at 3:10 PM - Thu Aug 22 2019

At least in the cases of the shallows turning out to be several meters deep you can actually make a port work there anyway, but you'll have to sound the shallows to figure that out, in-game.

Hope that helps!

Ok problem sortof solved. So... Shallow water on the map can be deep enough for larger boats, and any area that's 'shallow' can also host To'resk stilt buildings. So some of the shallow-locked settlements can host ocean going boats, but not all.


8/23/2019 12:45:39 PM #12
+0

I'm assuming eventually it will be feasible to build gigantic walls to create artificial harbours, which is a thing we do in the real world ocassionally. Alternatively, building quays out of stone and concrete (once someone invents it) may be a good alternative to using wood, for the increased resistance to the elements if nothing else.


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