Hi Bruttus,

Diversity of language is one of the things that makes Europe beautiful in my opinion, but I understand you concern.

The way language is handled in game however will likely negate this issue in part.

But there is no way to completely prevent language grouping in the community. However if you look at the current kingdoms you can see, there are different ways the different community handle this.

Some have made English their main language, to be as inclusive as possible, being patient with those who struggle.

Some have already divided the different languages, into different language channels.

What is the better way to move forward time will tell. Choose whatever you are most comfortable with.

Most of the people on EU server speaks english.

There is a few smaller communities where they will speak their own language, but even in those communities you should have no problems finding someone speaking english.

Worrying about a certain language dominating the server is pointless in my honest opinion. I just don't see a chance of that happening.

Edit: I forgot to say, I'm not sure there's a "certain language" community bigger than a county or a few counties together. Maybe a duchy sized community. But there's 100% no kingdom that's using a language other than english as its official... well, language.

My first language is english so I'm very happy if all i see is chat in the language i understand best. But that doesn't mean something is broken if i dont.

Why, as an english speaking person am i entitled to expect non-english speaking players to cater to... me? If its an EU server, with no dedicated language channels, why is english demanded from players who cant speak it? Its an EU server right? Not a UK server. Isn't it good enough that they are able to support and play a game in english without us demanding that they chat in a language they are not familiar with on top? How is that 1. conducive to fun and 2. not a toxic expectation likely to create a hostile environment that drives players away or adds to hostility between players?

The answer I've been given when discussing this, is too often that non-english speaking players should "just learn english, cos thats who this games is for" (really???), or "because its the default language of Europe" (really??? x2).

So rather than just accepting that some people have their own (European) first language, and that they are prepared to play games in a different language, we want to demand they speak english "or else". What if our obnoxious demands to speak english constantly, drive them away, reducing server and game population? How is that a good thing?

Now, all that said, global chat channels are not a thing (and neither is fast travel), so we at least wont be staring at LFG (looking for group), or LTS/LTB (like to sell/buy) channels and messages for hours on end. Chat will be local except for certain limited telepathy type mechanisms between family groups and The Waerd.

Not having global chat channels, and no fast travel, means its in all players interests to communicate with those nearby in the most efficient manner possible if they need to team up, or dedicate real travel time to move elsewhere in the search for a team. I think both sides of the language divide will want to work together.

So i wouldn't panic too much about whats happened in previous games when the mold of this game is so different. But nothing is broken if a group of French/Greek/Dutch/Polish etc... players start chatting locally in your vicinity with each other about whatever they want in the language they are most comfortable chatting in. Really, nothing at all, except maybe your comfort zone.

Well to be honest I was confused about your post…not because of the theme…more because of your example. I can remember to have seen Russian, French, Italian, Spanish or even some less often used languages like Swedish but I really do not remember to have ever recognized a conversation between a group of Netherlanders…

Anyway...generally you should see it this way: Not forcing players to stick with just one language will open the game to more players.

That you recognize other languages in chat is out of my perspective just a change of mind as today in most chats you can at least try to use the language you are most common with and just if that is not working you might have to switch to English. Several years ago this was unthinkable and resulted in at least ignorance or insults.

But even if there are people chatting in a different language I would see there no real influence on your gameplay aside of you are not understanding everything but maybe you should see it that way...that is basically the problem most non-native English-speaking players had for decades and this way this is just equalizing everyone to not understand everything. :)

But if that is really a problem maybe the usage of e.g. google translate or similar services could be an option. If all chat content is automatically translated to your game client language it might be still sometimes misleading but this way everyone will have at least a chance to follow every conversation in their preferred language.

with only one plans for one server everything should be okay :D

It would be awesome if CoE gains a large enough player-base for SBS to plop in a Chinese, Russian, German and French server. ♥

Posted By captrench at 10:11 PM - Sun Nov 03 2019

My first language is english so I'm very happy if all i see is chat in the language i understand best. But that doesn't mean something is broken if i dont.

Why, as an english speaking person am i entitled to expect non-english speaking players to cater to... me? If its an EU server, with no dedicated language channels, why is english demanded from players who cant speak it? Its an EU server right? Not a UK server. Isn't it good enough that they are able to support and play a game in english without us demanding that they chat in a language they are not familiar with on top? How is that 1. conducive to fun and 2. not a toxic expectation likely to create a hostile environment that drives players away or adds to hostility between players?

French/Greek/Dutch/Polish etc... players start chatting locally in your vicinity with each other about whatever they want in the language they are most comfortable chatting in. Really, nothing at all, except maybe your comfort zone. Oooof... I mean, ding ding, you won the most politically correct comment of the day award. However, I don't think that Bruttus ever suggested someone catering to his language. You just posed a question that seemed to create meaning from his question that I don't think was actually implied. It even appears by his wording (and this is not meant to be offensive if incorrect) but english may not, in fact, be Bruttus's main language.

I think some of your points are definitely valid (distance, lack of world chat, etc.) but at the same time, with discord and the like, it seems like the fear may be mitigated, not stopped. And you never really addressed Bruttus's issue. He is actually worried that certain people will force others to speak their language, or at least treat others differently because they are from a different culture. And Bruttus is right, games like Ark, pubg, even mobile games, have been taken over by a group speaking Russian or Korean who gained a us vs them mentality. Which DOES destroy the player base. Unless he edited the post though, he never suggested only allowing English as a language.

It sounds like he was trying to create an open forum post where players could discuss the issue in a mature way, and where devs could review and maybe have some take-aways for discussions of their own. This has been done on Perma-death, on jailing, on griefing, and a lot of good things have come from it. And while it may never be a problem, the simple fact that it has been a problem in other games means it is certainly worth talking about.

Posted By Scourge at 01:01 AM - Tue Nov 05 2019

Oooof... I mean, ding ding, you won the most politically correct comment of the day award. However, I don't think that Bruttus ever suggested someone catering to his language. You just posed a question that seemed to create meaning from his question that I don't think was actually implied. It even appears by his wording (and this is not meant to be offensive if incorrect) but english may not, in fact, be Bruttus's main language.

I think some of your points are definitely valid (distance, lack of world chat, etc.) but at the same time, with discord and the like, it seems like the fear may be mitigated, not stopped. And you never really addressed Bruttus's issue. He is actually worried that certain people will force others to speak their language, or at least treat others differently because they are from a different culture. And Bruttus is right, games like Ark, pubg, even mobile games, have been taken over by a group speaking Russian or Korean who gained a us vs them mentality. Which DOES destroy the player base. Unless he edited the post though, he never suggested only allowing English as a language.

Discord is not a relevant in this topic unless its a part of the games mechanics. Its not. No idea why you include it.

Despite you acknowledging that I might be right, you then claim i have not addressed his concerns? And then go on to list the same concerns you acknowledged I might be right about (not being a concern)?

I'm not disputing what might happen in other games or why it "DOES destroy a player base". I specifically said why i think this should not be an issue in this game due to mechanics, which you acknowledge I might be right about (and then claim i didn't address...)

Posted By Scourge at 01:04 AM - Tue Nov 05 2019

It sounds like he was trying to create an open forum post where players could discuss the issue in a mature way, and where devs could review and maybe have some take-aways for discussions of their own. This has been done on Perma-death, on jailing, on griefing, and a lot of good things have come from it. And while it may never be a problem, the simple fact that it has been a problem in other games means it is certainly worth talking about.

Not sure why you feel a need to state this. We ARE discussing it, and no-one has said it cant be discussed. Discussion isn't based on agreement. I dont agree with his concerns, for reasons stated. I hope that is not too politically correct for you ;)

Another reason might be that i've seen it happen too often the other way round where non-english speaking players are trolled in game everytime they speak their own language on a channel on a "european" (not UK specific) server, again, as i said in my first post i believe.

In light of this, Bruttus's concerns are a bit ironic to me, because more often than not, its non English speaking players who are "forced" to engage with the English language than the other way round. And I've seen too many times how little tolerance some English speakers have for seeing chat in any other language.

PS - I think you messed up your quotes in your first post to me, so i've corrected that.

There is no way for a community to impose its language in a public channel because such channels are very local, if you talk in the game your words will reach the ears of the people around only. (There is the exception of the Founder's channel and the Waerd family channel)

Overall, languages are tools for communication. But as we have different in-game languages, it has been noted that there are way to communicate without talking, through gesture, and showing your intentions.

For cases where a talk is needed, English is indeed a nice tool to be understood by the majority. Considering that CoE is an English game (I think no translations are planned atm?), a player that can't understand English will either not be able to understand the NPCs or have a "translator" buddy who can help him through the dialogs. In the former case, it's like the player is missing a requirement to fully enjoy the game, as a 2 yo child will not be able to read text in a visual novel. In the latter case, the translator can still help establish the communication.

So, in the general case where a player is playing an english game, and understands enough english to understand NPCs, but still talk in a non-English language to someone who doesn't understand that language, that player is kind of refusing to communicate. If a french guy comes up to you, and start talking in french, understands that you don't speak french, and still talk in french, it's clear that his intent is not to communicate, with you at least.

Then language barriers can be used as ways to exclude people from the discussion. You don't speak french, welp too bad you'll miss half of what is being said. It's like they're whispering, without showing the intent of whispering. Even worse, they can be badmouthing you or tricking you right before your eyes, unless you are fast enough to google translate everything. That's one of the main reasons why English people tend to force their language to non English speakers in online games, since English is not only the most common "international" language and the game is clearly in English.

It can be quite hard to accept, why this language and not mine ? But a choice had to be made, to make international communication easier and more accessible to everyone, there had to be one language, and most of the time it's English.

So in short, another language than English taking over channels is impossible, I think that was the concern that brought this topic ? And if someone if talking to you in a language you don't understand it's either English and you're lacking in the needed language to play the game or another language and the other person just doesn't want you to understand him.

(.. Until Mandarin becomes the international language) (oh and I'm french btw, that's why I use french as an example a lot)

This seems a very confused thread. None of the games I've played have been taken over by a language speaking group though they've heavily influenced certain games. For example the Russian bloc in Eve Online was infamous for many years. Their Alliances would mostly all campaign together offensively but as soon as they were left alone they'd be at each others throats which was a balancing factor. Nowadays they're not really much of a factor as eventually that bloc split up despite the commonality of their language.

I'm a bit ambivalent about the issue as I've played in German competitive pvp teams in FPS games before but they frequently spoke English as two of the roster were British or spoke English just so they could practice colloquial spoken English. People work around each other generally.

That said there was a problem with a particular Kingdom a while back on Selene where posts were being put here where they certainly appeared to be ultra nationalist - if you didn't speak one of a small group of related languages (French, Spanish or Italian) you were relegated to second class citizen status at best. Was it true - well maybe as I had certain comments made to me but its hard to say. I've not heard about that recently and indeed looking at the other four kingdoms all seem to have a very healthy mix of people from all over Europe and beyond which is nice. As an example, Al'Khezam, Tryggr and Arkadia all have strong Scandinavian numbers, Al'Khezam and Arkadia have Russian groups, Tryggr and Al'Khezam have strong German groups. Brits are all over (though Al'Khezam does have a lot!). In fact people seem mostly not to have organised via country or language - rather by tribe they preferred or communities they liked.