Heres my 2 sense, the game will be a disappointment im not gonna sugercoat it anymore. Im beyond disgusted with SBS and so is alot of people..... Caspian has proven time and time again they cant make their launch dates in anything let alone something in 2020 thats just a meme at this point. Dont get me wrong either ive been here for along time ive had faith and everything but 3 years now and still not even an alpha.....

Posted By Artax_Daane at 8:48 PM - Thu Nov 14 2019

Heres my 2 sense, the game will be a disappointment im not gonna sugercoat it anymore. Im beyond disgusted with SBS and so is alot of people..... Caspian has proven time and time again they cant make their launch dates in anything let alone something in 2020 thats just a meme at this point. Dont get me wrong either ive been here for along time ive had faith and everything but 3 years now and still not even an alpha.....

I think this is a bit much.

On an unrelated note, I had to chuckle a little on the timing of this recent shiney.

I know this thread and its comments effect precisely nothing in the grand scheme, but I found it a bit ironic that in the midst of a discussion about transparent communication of progress after three years, and Caspians comments about all the stuff in the works, the shiney was...

a concept sketch.

Not a rendering. Not an in game image from the PrElyria client. Not even a colored mock up...

A. Sketch.

I know, I know, shineys aren't production updates - they're just fun little tidbits. Still, I admit to a cheap laugh.

On a more serious note, I always enjoy the little "what we are working on" updates that Snipe manages to usually insert into the weekly shinies. That is one thing I think is being done well.

Not sure how I feel about them still iterating on movement mechanics after three years, or what that might indicate for how long it will take to iterate on each of the hundred or so systems they have planned, but guess it's good they are making progress on it.

I appreciate the information being passed along to those of us who try to avoid the chaos and drama of "Discordia"...

And I will give them the opportunity to now cash some of the checks they have been writing with their promises.

2019 obviously did not turn out as they, or we the community, intended.

Hopefully the lessons have been learned and the mistakes are not repeated moving forward into 2020.

@Marovec i didnt mean for it to be harsh just blunt and striaght to the point and at this point COE is a meme till we have something in our hands, i know MMOS take years (sometimes decades) to make but its been 3 years i feel ive been patient enough and ive put my blinders on for long enough. As for the shiny, dont get me started on that lol.

@marovec, awesome initial post but it’s not going to happen. If the studio was to release a true, non-sales pitch, this is where everything stands post it would shut down the game. Not because they haven’t made progress but because they are no where near where they lead on that they are in development .

Now I know some one will follow up that says they have a friend of a friend that has jimmy johns delivered from a guy that works part time as a guy who brings coffee to the devs who can testify the game is way further along than we know but then prove it. This topic thread isn’t new just the next wave crashing on the beach after another successful conceptual goods sale. Do I hope like everyone that this game being built on my hopes and dreams comes true, sure but I also know that I willingly bought a ticket on this titanic cruise and even sprung for the economy plus cabin. Did I expect a finished game at this stage , not at all so it’s easy for me to walk away and play another game and come back months later and find zero tangible progress and not be disappointed.

One of my favorite post was when the maps were in development and we were told that x amount of cpus with x amount of cores were working at 100% to finalize the maps....for it to only be delayed months later after the peasants revolted for a progress update. If the map development was so far behind does anyone really believe that a studio with limited manpower and resources is going to create this skynet level AI they’ve been touting as a game changer?

At this point you’re a frog in the pot of water on the stove and it’s starting to heat up.

#votewithyourwallet

Posted By Gnox at 1:00 PM - Fri Nov 15 2019

Posted By Marovec at 05:24 AM - Fri Nov 15 2019

On an unrelated note, I had to chuckle a little on the timing of this recent shiney. [...] I found it a bit ironic that in the midst of a discussion about transparent communication of progress after three years, and Caspians comments about all the stuff in the works, the shiney was...

a concept sketch.

[...]

Not sure how I feel about them still iterating on movement mechanics after three years, or what that might indicate for how long it will take to iterate on each of the hundred or so systems they have planned, but guess it's good they are making progress on it.

Honestly, this recent shiney had the complete oppesite impression on me. Sure I too wished CoE was close to release but then again I'd much rather have a GOOD CoE in five years than another average mmorpg in two. At least for me this shiney was a good reminder to be patient...

It was mostly said in jest, and I do see where you are coming from.

However, I'll honestly say that one of the last things I hope to gain from any type of update or peak at work is a "reminder to be patient".

Still, different strokes and all that.

EDIT:

To add some constructive feedback to that comment, let me mention some things that I do hope to gain from SBS communication:

• Insight into the development.

• Some form of tangible progess.

• Transparency in terms of current state of affairs.

• New information on systems.

• Proof of concept for the myriad of complex systems they are designing.

• Lists of work done, in progress, and yet to start.

• Roadmaps of short and long term goals, and updates on reaching them.

Long story short, quantifiable items that build confidence in SBS' ability to deliver the product they have promised in return for our donations.

Now, I am not saying that every communication needs to have all of these things, or even that some of the communication they do provide doesn't occasionally hit a few of those items.

But when I talk about "transparent" communication, it is a matter of quality vs quantity for me.

At the beginning, there was a fair amount of both (though, as I mentioned, I am starting to question the quality). Over time, the emphasis seemed to shift to quantity (though they did very well for a while after all the DSS delays, which is to be expected given the situation they were in). Lately, I have seen, frankly, a lack in either metric.

Bottom line, I want evidence of progress. Not fluff, not lore, not reminders how hard it is to make a game, not community journals or dev interviews, not concept art sketches...

Clear, demonstrable evidence of their ability to make this game.

I know it's a big ask, but that's what I would like to see.

The game may take 5 more years...I get that, and frankly I support it. But I will feel a whole lot better about the journey if it includes some milemarkers that we are still on the right path.

Unfortunately, words just don't cut it. They have burned that bridge. They may be able to rebuild it, and I hope they do, but until then, the words dont mean much to me.

Posted By Marovec at 12:38 PM - Fri Nov 15 2019

Bottom line, I want evidence of progress. Not fluff, not lore, not reminders how hard it is to make a game, not community journals or dev interviews, not concept art sketches...

Clear, demonstrable evidence of their ability to make this game.

I think we all want to see that and the proof will come with an alpha release, but there is really nothing to do but wait. Either they will prove that they can do it and we'll have an alpha or they won't.

Everyone just has to find something else to do in the interim than be glued to the Chronicles of Elyria forums. It's not quite ready for the kind of day to day devotion people are giving it quite frankly.

Posted By Marovec Fri Nov 15 2019

...

Now, I am not saying that every communication needs to have all of these things, or even that some of the communication they do provide doesn't occasionally hit a few of those items.

>... Bottom line, I want evidence of progress. Not fluff, not lore, not reminders how hard it is to make a game, not community journals or dev interviews, not concept art sketches...

Clear, demonstrable evidence of their ability to make this game.

...

Unfortunately, words just don't cut it. They have burned that bridge. They may be able to rebuild it, and I hope they do, but until then, the words dont mean much to me.

It seems to me, you actually need a deliverable in your own hands that you can play. If words do not mean much, no matter how many tickboxes / timeline are given, those can be regard as just words.

In terms of the deliverable we know: Prelyria. So far, we have seen clips for venturing a dungeon ( which someone would argue is an empty basement), the interaction with NPC (the knowledge system), some combat and parkour footage, and of course the sound effect videos earlier.

TBH, everything shown so far is proof that they are working on the deliverable that you want. So if SBS tell you the deliverable is not ready yet, what do you want?

A clip showing the current status of combat? like this and this? We got this months ago.

So what do you want? A list of things that is not yet done? And as things are not yet done, by nature, all the devs can do is tell you, IN WORDS.

Or you want a 10 minute video of the monitor of one of the devs working on the codes / animation ?

I believe if we are to ask for better communications, we have to be more precise on what we want. From there, we can start a discussion why disclosing this info is possible / good / unhelpful etc.

Posted By Roarer at 04:54 AM - Sun Nov 17 2019

(...)It seems to me, you actually need a deliverable in your own hands that you can play. If words do not mean much, no matter how many tickboxes / timeline are given, those can be regard as just words(...) TBH, everything shown so far is proof that they are working on the deliverable that you want. So if SBS tell you the deliverable is not ready yet, what do you want?(...) I believe if we are to ask for better communications, we have to be more precise on what we want(...)

Even though that wasn't directed towards me, I'm going to chip in my two cents there, as I am in a somewhat similar situation to Marovec. What I'd love to see is a 'concrete' description of the functionality SBS aims to implement at roughly what level of 'completion' in their first (non friends and family) PrElyria release. Followed by roughly how far into each individual feature they are at this point, together with a short video of that exact functionality. That should include:

1. load balancing of the server
2. amount of AI that can be currently handled
3. procedural world generation
4. story/Soulbound engine
5. information tokens
6. terrain layers and network traffic

@Roarer

Those are fair points, and when viewed solely in the light of the post you responded to, would probably be the end of it.

However, that post was simply the most recent in a series of comments that basically started with this post.

Now, I don't expect anyone to reread every comment I have made in this thread, so let me try to give a synopsis.

It's not just about progress, it about progress in context. By that I mean, what progress are they making in relation to:

1) Where they implied they were over the course of 3+ years (i.e. as compared to what was talked about in the Kickstarter, what was shown in the Pre-Alpha Progress Update and the Silver Run Mine Demo, and talked about in the Adventure Completion: From Pre to Alpha blog from last year).

2) Their ability to create the complex systems they have talked about over the years (i.e. NPC AI at a scale we have never seen in an MMO, complex and interconnected world ecology, in-depth domain management, reactive story engine, etc.).

3) Where they are going (Accurate portrayal of the roadmap and goal milestones I mentioned - I get this one will likely be done with words, but has been demonstrated over time with action - which would indicate effective planning).

The "progress" they have shown isn't viewed in a vacuum. It is progress from something (where they started) towards something (first testing phase, completed product, etc.).

Right now, your response (and frankly, their presentation) seems to highlight it in a vacuum:

"Look at what we have done - we are making progress!"

However, when viewed with context, it doesn't look like progress, it looks like they started over.

Nothing they have shown indicates forward movement from those things I linked. Nothing they have shown indicates an ability to bring the hugely ambitious systems and world they have advertised to fruition. Nothing they have shown indicates an ability to effectively plan development over time.

To be clear, again, I am not talking about the graphics - I understand what they have said regarding their choice to use the low-poly client for iteration and testing.

This is about presenting the game (via direct statements, and implication) as being at X starting point (and building from there), when in reality (at least, from what I can see) it was actually no where near as far along as they led us to believe.

Bottom line, for me (and many others), what they have shown does not build confidence when viewed in the context of what they have said over time, and what they are trying to achieve.

Posted By Marovec at 6:16 PM - Sun Nov 17 2019

2) Their ability to create the complex systems they have talked about over the years (i.e. NPC AI at a scale we have never seen in an MMO, complex and interconnected world ecology, in-depth domain management, reactive story engine, etc.).

Nothing they have shown indicates forward movement from those things I linked. Nothing they have shown indicates an ability to bring the hugely ambitious systems and world they have advertised to fruition. Nothing they have shown indicates an ability to effectively plan development over time.

That's the thing which worries me most of all personally.