One should be able to grow them by themselfes. Like setting up the garden right etc. Other than that I would make it realistic, like that you spot the herb with your eye and no minimap. Maybe they use the sensory map for that thought, hmm.

hrmmm Roarer - am torn on this one

i commend the thinking out of the box

am not sure it should be applicable to every herb - would it be making the herb harder to find than if the insects weren't there - or do the insects make it easier to find since they might be spotted from further away

perhaps it could work for certain rare herbs/plants like an edelweiss type plant that only grows in rock cracks at higher elevations, or perhaps a certain type of poisonous fungi prized by alchemists that only grows out of sight inside hollow tree stumps/hollow logs?

Great write up man. It sure is hard to make necessarily repeatable tasks in MMOs feel engaging while not feeling like a hassle.

Allow me, if you will, to spin off your idea just a bit. I mean this as a compliment :)

When I think of your idea from a realistic PoV (as some others have done), it seems to me that it doesn't quite track, though there's so much to love about the concept! (Also, I worry that the mini-game involved necessarily leaves my character open to attacks since I'm engaged in an immersive task in order to spot my target).

Here's what I'm thinking:

Just like you point out, a Herbalist should start out with approximately zero knowledge about "plant X" and through experience and in-game knowledge acquisition should improve.

What if we allowed herbalists to self guide their knowledge gain at the point of learning (when gathering the plant)?

Imagine Helga the Herbalist sets out to gather enough Moonleaf to make 10 potions. This will require approximately 100 Moonleaf plants.

What we would like (from a meta perspective) is for Helga's job to get easier as time goes on. "Easier" in this context (IMO) should mean faster to spot, more yield per harvest, better outcome of research. So, plants 0-10 should be really tough to find whereas 90-100 should be much easier IF she stays in relatively the same biome.

So Helga sets out with only a very broad idea of what Moonleaf looks like because she read somewhere that it's generally a silverish plant found at the base of certain trees (or whatever). Helga starts scouting trees, looking for silverish type plants.

Finally, she spots one (using basic visual search). She approaches and harvests the plant. Once that's done she has her plant (though the yield will likely be low - maybe only 3/XX leaves). Now, if she wants to "research" that plant in order to be able to identify it better, she can choose to "sacrifice" it for research.

When researching, a new UI opens with a ?screenshot / 3d model) of the plant - though jittered / blurred / torn / modified

The idea behind altering the plant is to simulate the idea that A) our perceptual system is noisy - meaning we don't have Perfect perception, B) that expertise improves the level of detail one can perceive.

Consider identical twins.. A random person seeing them for the first time (or even the 10th time) will struggle to tell them apart, whereas their Mom does it effortlessly. This is because she is literally seeing differences that the 'novice' is "blind" to (not really blind, but rather doesn't have the sensitivity to - yet).

Then, once that new UI is up, Helga gets to literally click on some feature(s) (say the leaf pattern, or a flower pedal, etc.). Perhaps the number of features she gets to select is dependent upon her Herbalist skill.

Selecting the feature means she's spent time scrutinizing some particular aspect of the plant such that it becomes more familiar to her. Now, next time she looks for that plant, she has a better chance of spotting it as, over time and experience, the plant will "pop" more (perhaps eventually leading to some highlight). Also, that feature becomes less 'distorted' such that when she inspects that plant in the future, she gets a higher fidelity "view" of the selected feature (eventually leading to a true representation of the in-game model).

This seems to track real world performance. Try going out with a professional bird watcher some time... they're like "Robin." "Flat tailed So and So", "Green crested Dingler". while you're like "wait... there are birds here??".

Now here's where some RNG / Skill is involved... it's quite possible that there are many plants that share "feature Y" that Helga selected. Especially in the vicinity of Moonleaf (because spiny leaves are an adaptive phenotype given the types of herbivores in the area). So selecting that feature wouldn't quite help you in that environment until you scrutinize more features (etc.).

The feature list you slowly accumulate could then be scribed into a book (or not). That said, even if I got ahold of your epic herb encyclopedia, it would only help me to a degree... (try reading a book on how to juggle... you will fail the first time even though you can recite the technique). Similarly, knowing that you're looking for X, and actually spotting X are very different. Just ask any radiologist screening X-Rays for tumors.

Anyways, that's my idea based off of yours :)

What'yall think?

Posted By balance at 0:17 AM - Tue Aug 02 2016

One should be able to grow them by themselfes. Like setting up the garden right etc. Other than that I would make it realistic, like that you spot the herb with your eye and no minimap. Maybe they use the sensory map for that thought, hmm.

If herbs growing is allowed, how will that be different from farming then? I believe they are too similar in nature to justify 2 different professions.

On the other hand, as I have sent in a previous post, searching in game with players' bare eyes makes it hard for Soul Bound Studio to tune the difficulty, and require them to create more assets to hide the herbs in the world.

Posted By Dleatherus at 0:25 AM - Tue Aug 02 2016

hrmmm Roarer - am torn on this one

i commend the thinking out of the box

am not sure it should be applicable to every herb - would it be making the herb harder to find than if the insects weren't there - or do the insects make it easier to find since they might be spotted from further away

perhaps it could work for certain rare herbs/plants like an edelweiss type plant that only grows in rock cracks at higher elevations, or perhaps a certain type of poisonous fungi prized by alchemists that only grows out of sight inside hollow tree stumps/hollow logs?

My idea is that the insects would be the players' lead to find the herbs. Without the insects, the players are simply searching blindly. Sure there can be places where the desired herbs grow but no insects can be found, and no one would know those herbs are there.

The primary function of the insects - herbs relationship is to add content to the herbs gathering profession, not making it difficult or easy. Sure the difficulty can be tweaked by adjusting the number of insects in an area.

Would you mind explaining why the suggestion is not appropriate for the more common herbs ?

The one major issue I have with the system you described is the principal that,

"It should also be emphasized that even the gatherer is standing right on top of a herb in game. No herbs can be seen by anyone. The herbs can only be seen when the skill challenge is finished and the character identified the herbs within the images."

I think a more functional idea would be like Balerathon suggests, perhaps the herbs is visible to anyone walking through the forest, but it is less pronounced to people without a higher herbalist skill. As example, in the English language we have only a small handful of names for the color green, however certain tribes in the amazon have over 100 names for different shades of green. The Inuit have dozens of names for different kinds of snow. The reason being, they see the difference.

Lets stick with Moonleaf for this. We know that Moonleaf grows in a certain area of he woods, as we have done some research, and we know that it is silver in color. Well silver is going to stand out during the day, but perhaps it is only silver in the moonlight and indistinguishable to the untrained eye during the day. If you go hunting for Moonleaf during the day with a low herbalist skill all you'll see are plants of different shades of green, maybe one is a grey-ish green, but you don't notice. So if you're new to herbalism you've read that moonleaf glows brighter under a full moon, so you go out at night you will see the silver color more plainly. You find your Moonleaf through the mini-game that you've described, and your skill level goes up. After doing this for awhile and slowly building your skill levels Moonleaf becomes more prominently silver in the daylight. You now recognize the herb so it shows up separate from the background more thoroughly. As you gain levels in herbalism herbs are easier to spot with the naked eye. This would mean anyone can see them, but without skill, not everyone knows they are seeing something other than just another green plant.

Posted By Roarer at 9:30 AM - Mon Aug 01 2016

1) Should the encyclopedia of a herbalist be a steal-able item in game?

2) How should we learn about new herbs?

3) How should knowledge be passed down to an heir?

1) Absolutely, WYSIWYG is the motto here right? If you are carrying an encyclopedia, or journal that you have written then someone should 100% be able to take it off of you. However, if it's in your backpack this requires a coup de gras to accomplish. However, I don't think you should suffer skill points, you just lost your notes. However, if you begin creating a new journal, lets say the journal is a UI that as you research each herb further you're able to discern new traits about the herb and they show up in your journal, perhaps you will be able to start with a few of those traits without having to research them. Also, I imagine writing out this journal that each herb you find gets a picture in the journal that increases in detail the more you advance in your skill/research that herb. Perhaps the pictures you had from your previous journal are quicker to detail than the first time you wrote it out.

2) I believe that as you increase in skill level other plants that were previously just plants should now be able to be picked up, or interacted with. One day you're out picking Moonleaf, and a small red flower that you just thought was part of the environment next to you seems more prominent in color and so you pick it. Now you're able to research that flower and you find out it has properties you never knew about. As well, if you train with someone perhaps some of the herbs they knew about now get a indistinct picture and a short note in your journal.

3) I feel that the journal/encyclopedia is an important aspect of herbalism. Perhaps when you choose your heir they get your encyclopedia, and while their skill is still low, they can increase it a small amount by reading from the encyclopedia. However, all the images of the plants you put in the book are still very detailed, and as they learn and research the basic plants that you already discovered, their research will only add deeper detail to the picture, and maybe build deeper traits than you were able to determine the first time around. Perhaps after your third or fourth life as an herbalist the plants that seemed dim and indistinguishable at low levels with your first character and built in color and noticeable as you got older start out vibrant and noticeable from the get go in your new life.

Posted By Balerathon at 5:27 PM - Mon Aug 01 2016

Great write up man. It sure is hard to make necessarily repeatable tasks in MMOs feel engaging while not feeling like a hassle.

Allow me, if you will, to spin off your idea just a bit. I mean this as a compliment :)

When I think of your idea from a realistic PoV (as some others have done), it seems to me that it doesn't quite track, though there's so much to love about the concept! (Also, I worry that the mini-game involved necessarily leaves my character open to attacks since I'm engaged in an immersive task in order to spot my target).

Here's what I'm thinking:

Just like you point out, a Herbalist should start out with approximately zero knowledge about "plant X" and through experience and in-game knowledge acquisition should improve.

What if we allowed herbalists to self guide their knowledge gain at the point of learning (when gathering the plant)?

Imagine Helga the Herbalist sets out to gather enough Moonleaf to make 10 potions. This will require approximately 100 Moonleaf plants.

What we would like (from a meta perspective) is for Helga's job to get easier as time goes on. "Easier" in this context (IMO) should mean faster to spot, more yield per harvest, better outcome of research. So, plants 0-10 should be really tough to find whereas 90-100 should be much easier IF she stays in relatively the same biome.

So Helga sets out with only a very broad idea of what Moonleaf looks like because she read somewhere that it's generally a silverish plant found at the base of certain trees (or whatever). Helga starts scouting trees, looking for silverish type plants.

Finally, she spots one (using basic visual search). She approaches and harvests the plant. Once that's done she has her plant (though the yield will likely be low - maybe only 3/XX leaves). Now, if she wants to "research" that plant in order to be able to identify it better, she can choose to "sacrifice" it for research.

When researching, a new UI opens with a ?screenshot / 3d model) of the plant - though jittered / blurred / torn / modified

The idea behind altering the plant is to simulate the idea that A) our perceptual system is noisy - meaning we don't have Perfect perception, B) that expertise improves the level of detail one can perceive.

Consider identical twins.. A random person seeing them for the first time (or even the 10th time) will struggle to tell them apart, whereas their Mom does it effortlessly. This is because she is literally seeing differences that the 'novice' is "blind" to (not really blind, but rather doesn't have the sensitivity to - yet).

Then, once that new UI is up, Helga gets to literally click on some feature(s) (say the leaf pattern, or a flower pedal, etc.). Perhaps the number of features she gets to select is dependent upon her Herbalist skill.

Selecting the feature means she's spent time scrutinizing some particular aspect of the plant such that it becomes more familiar to her. Now, next time she looks for that plant, she has a better chance of spotting it as, over time and experience, the plant will "pop" more (perhaps eventually leading to some highlight). Also, that feature becomes less 'distorted' such that when she inspects that plant in the future, she gets a higher fidelity "view" of the selected feature (eventually leading to a true representation of the in-game model).

This seems to track real world performance. Try going out with a professional bird watcher some time... they're like "Robin." "Flat tailed So and So", "Green crested Dingler". while you're like "wait... there are birds here??".

Now here's where some RNG / Skill is involved... it's quite possible that there are many plants that share "feature Y" that Helga selected. Especially in the vicinity of Moonleaf (because spiny leaves are an adaptive phenotype given the types of herbivores in the area). So selecting that feature wouldn't quite help you in that environment until you scrutinize more features (etc.).

The feature list you slowly accumulate could then be scribed into a book (or not). That said, even if I got ahold of your epic herb encyclopedia, it would only help me to a degree... (try reading a book on how to juggle... you will fail the first time even though you can recite the technique). Similarly, knowing that you're looking for X, and actually spotting X are very different. Just ask any radiologist screening X-Rays for tumors.

Anyways, that's my idea based off of yours :)

What'yall think?

Your idea is very interesting indeed. Thank you for your comments. I will try to incorporate your idea with mine. As far as my suggestion goes, there is little room to add another way to reduce the difficulty of spotting herbs from the pictures. Seems like adding yield amount will be the most straight forward way.

To me though, merely having higher yield seems a bit boring. Since each herbs would take quite an investment to research, players might hope for a bigger return. How about we allow gathers to collect seeds from herbs so that players with required farming skill can grow some the same herbs themselves. The planted seed will grow herbs with less and less effectiveness over generations. The 2nd generation herbs may only retain 80% of the effectiveness of the original wild one. The 3rd generation, will only retain 80% x 80% = 64% effect of the last one. With such a system in place, we can then allow research to make subsequent generation effectiveness drop slower. This feels like a good return for the investment and will make cultivating foreign plants a business. However, this might take some serious balancing effort. Right on top of my mind, the devs can tweak the balance using the "time needed to grow a herb", "amount of land needed to grow a herb", "fertilizers required". I would suggest.. the end result should be the following :

Planting herbs would only be cost efficient if the herbs can only be found in foreign land. If Moonleaf can be found easily in a region, finding them from the wild should be more efficient than growing.

Do you guys have other suggestions on implementing the reward for researching specific herbs ?