Rybosaurus, first let me welcome you to the CoE Community, it is great having you aboard.

The 'Fencing' video you are referring to needs to be taken in context. The video was put out as part of a rush of information leading up to the PAX convention. The Idea was to have a simple PvP combat challenge for the guests to play at the convention and was not intended to be a major part of combat in the main game. They needed a point system to find a definitive winner so prizes would be awarded and I guess Fencing seemed to be a logical, yet different choice. All this was preceded by the Princess Bride video demonstrating the same type of combat before the Devs traveled to the convention.

There has not really been much in the way of combat videos released unless you pick apart the Silver Run Mines video. In that one you can see some basic combat and shield bashing but not in much detail. Sorry not much is really known where they stand at the moment but I and others are waiting for a solid combat video to surface so we can spend days pouring over every detail.

I hope combat is somewhat like the combat videos we have already seen.... by that I mean no locking onto a target, no reticles, etc. Just like how one would have to use weapons in real life. Also, player skill should weigh way more heavily than character skill. Having an enemy's weapon go through your character yet not "hit" you when you are just standing there not moving is ridiculous.

Hopefully the combat is somewhat reminiscent of Mount & Blade, without the instant feinting and blocking. And I'm also curious how ping dependent the game will be, using action combat for an MMO makes your ping the highest form of tactical advantage.

i agree that the for honor combat system is great and it fits on the CoE purpose to make the combat something truly challenging, that demands player ability not only your character lvl, equips and skills.

CoE is a skill-based game for the most part. Even crafting will require player skill in order to accomplish. Taking that into consideration you should understand that combat will be the same kind of player-skill based system.

We have already heard through the grape-vine that an archer will have to take into consideration the wind, weather, draw, and manual aim. Perhaps when one reaches higher milestones in their skill ramps this will be made easier. However, it will be difficult.

PAX had a little taste of the combat system. Where players were able to dodge weapon swings, parries and strike. Caspian also mentioned back in the day how feints would/could also be a possibility. Not to mention the striking angle of the weapon (This was talked about pre-kickstarter in irc chat). So whether or not different striking angles will come into play by the end is unknown.

We also know that it is possible to disarm an opponent and once disarmed the combatant if not equipped with other weapons will have to resort to hand to hand combat.

Furthermore, although I don't think we reached the mounted combat stretch goal. Caspian said that the stretch goals will be implemented in time post-launch. So even though mounted combat may not be around at launch it can/will come into play down the road.

Finally, for you beast tamers/masters. If memory serves me correctly Caspian has mentioned that controlling more than one beast/pet at a time would be possible in the IRC chat. I am hoping that this will allow someone to ambush others by either attacking themselves and then sending in the pets from behind or vice versa. Though, I can't confirm that such will be the case in terms of beasts/pets.

Keep in mind that a lot of this is based on very old information. That being said expect combat to require player movement, aim, reflexes and skill in order to reach the apex. Also if you plan on being a champion and going into combat all the time you may want to pick a server close to home to join. A slight lag would most likely end in your demise

Thank you for your info, I did not know some of it, so thank you.

As for the people thinking the lock-on camera would make it easy or unrealistic, I can explain.

I understand that this soft Aim assist does not seem realistic and all, but the purpose of it is to make the battle look realistic. When you are in a combat, you are >90% focused on your target (if it's 1v1) and maybe <10% on your surroundings. If the game does not have any focus mechanic, it would look like you were trying to hit Air or a fly. The swings would go wildly everywhere, looking horrible.

Let's compare 3 mechanics from other games (excluding Tab-ing style MMORPGs since it's out of question here). 1) No lock-on, no assist (Ideal one, but almost impossible to do in a 3D First/Third person videogame for it most likely will look dumb): Characters swing randomly, trying to hit each other but more than 50% of the attacks go meters far from the target. Looks like the fighters are drunk and it's not fun, nor does it look good. It kinda looks like playing stick fight/gang beasts etc., just rofl sadly. Can be improved by aim assist (like DMC etc.) but that makes it just a hack-n-slash game with almost 0 skill (except for dodging element). Black Desert is without assist and camera and most of the time, people run around, swing around, spam attacks to have a chance to hit. Does not look realistic at all. It's more of a hack and slash.

2) No lock-on, but assist ON (this model is used by most of the action MMORPGs like Tera). It feels better and looks better. You are swinging and attacking freely, you can choose your target instantly, jump in and try to hit/slash the target while your character actually looks like he is trying to hit him. The swings are focused on the direction of your character, but there are Lock-on skills/attacks that make you face the target (so you don't swing around like a doof for too long). But, there is no skill involved in terms of slashing, again it's just a hack and slash/dodge/jump-in, you can't make different attacks etc.

3) Lock on camera - Either with Assist, so you can make more attack angles thanks to your free mouse and it's easy to develop weapon interactions (For Honor), or No Assist. Now this can be done in a way it looks good, feels good and provides more options for swing angles etc. With lock on camera, your mouse is free, so you can use it for different swing angles or blocks. The characters can circle around each other, still looking at each other like in real life (and not running around, looking everywhere around them like a pair of scared chickens), the two characters always face each other like they are measuring each other, psychological battle raging and then they move in and strike/deflect/block/dance. That's the strongest advantage. The feel of being actually in the combat and in full control, not messing around. A real duel awesome to be part of and awesome to be looking at.

Now, the combat is not linear, you can be in a war where you have to decide whether to try to isolate and fight 1v1 with camera lock on, or to go for the charge with your unit, so you have to be free. So I think, it would be the best if the game had a mechanic for good 1v1 and a mechanic to be able to go freely while being able to shift these two in an instant if needed.

That's what I have in mind ^^. Of course there might be a solution we've never seen before. For Honor brought together combat style that was there before, but they made it almost perfect. So maybe Soulbound studio can work something out the same way. With their great ambition, they can do whatever they want. So let's hope we will get an awesome combat. Cause a lot of us want to become soldiers, thieves, assassins, knights etc. and for that to work, we need good and fluent combat/dance mechanics. I am interested in how things will turn out. Glad to be part of this.

I like the combat system of Mordhau in terms of attacking angles, parries, disarms and the like.

Hi Rybosaurus, welcome to CoE.

I agree that a camera-lock makes a lot of sense in order to free up your mouse/keyboard for attacking and defending rather than focusing on your opponent. All console games I've played that are combat based offer this option and it certainly allows you to focus your attention on the mechanics of combat (lunge, parry, feint, block, etc) rather than tracking your opponent.

The downside is, you have to remember to unlock the camera when you need to attack or defend against another opponent. Another option might be an automatic tracking mode where your camera switches to the direction of the last melee attack. Sort of like you would expect in a real fight, if you could actually feel the blows. You're not going to just stand there taking blows from your flank because you have limited viewing angles on a 2D screen.

Also, a VR headset would be amazing for combat. In VR mode, you wouldn't need any camera-locking at all. Your camera tracks with your head/eyes. How cool would that be?

I'd prefer something along the lines of Mount and Blade. At least something with directional blocking/striking, where no 'damage' is taken unless there's a registered hit on the character body/model.

Games that have auto attack or mindless attack spam are hideous, for me there's no real player skill involved in those modes. I have always taken the view that any good combat system should rely more on player skill rather than 'stats'. Stats should play a part, but they shouldn't be the ruling factor.

Maybe i'm misunderstanding it but this camera-lock idea seam a bit of a clutch, part of the skill of a good pvp'er should be to have good situational awareness.

In short something like skyrim where you just spam hits until someone runs out of 'health' isn't appealing at all. Something like m&b where you block, parry, swing but can only take a few hits before 'going down' is.

Proteus: Yes, something like that could work, but would have to be somehow managed by stamina or something, otherwise it would result in people spamming attacks/push/block like in The Culling for example. And I think block/parry would be almost useless since you have so many attack directions, the chances are, you won't be able to react fast enough to block/parry. So maybe less angles so it would be a bit easier and more realistic in matter of no need to have big health pool.

Hieronymus: Exactly. Though in For Honor, it's done in the way that you can be focused on one enemy and block attacks from a different enemy just by moving your block to the side where you are being attacked from while still being locked on the front enemy (it's a bit simplified, but if you ever played it, you would know even when simplified like this, it's very difficult to do, and I mean like a lot). And if it does not work for you, you can switch camera focus from target to target (would work by moving mouse and pressing button to switch target so you can select the right one, but it's a stretch).

Jeanne: I agree, spamming is a very bad mechanic and sadly it is present in most games. The camera lock won't hinder your FoV, so you could still see what's around you, but I see your point. I forgot I am talking about For Honor which is 3rd person, so it could possibly limit 1st person point of view and might feel a bit like having your hands/head shackled.

The main idea is to present more variety to attacks and blocks. And for that to work (at least with M+KB) you need to have a free directional input (which is the Mouse), but you can't really do that if you have a free look camera. It would make you shake your camera before every attack/block which would result in a loss of focus. It can work to some extent like in the Mordhau video, but would have to be really sensitive, so you won't need to look at the sky to perform an undercut? haha. Or you can have hotkeys for different swings, but that's... dunno, impossible I think? So maybe not a camera lock, but like 3 directional inputs and a real block/parry that carries on weight (so it is clearly visible you blocked the attack and the opponent staggers a bit etc., so it feels real and not just like hacking and slashing till you drop).

Posted By Rybosaurus at 12/27/2017 8:15:48 PM

Though in For Honor, it's done in the way that you can be focused on one enemy and block attacks from a different enemy just by moving your block to the side where you are being attacked from while still being locked on the front enemy (it's a bit simplified, but if you ever played it, you would know even when simplified like this, it's very difficult to do, and I mean like a lot). And if it does not work for you, you can switch camera focus from target to target (would work by moving mouse and pressing button to switch target so you can select the right one, but it's a stretch).

You forgot to mention the fact that For Honor is almost a cop-out for the entire Medieval genre. Comparing For Honor to Mount & Blade or Mordhau is like comparing Action Combat and Tab-Target Combat for MMO's. For Honor lacks "physical" combat in its engine, which is shown when a bug appeared that still isn't fixed if I'm correct. What the bug allows you to do is lock onto an enemy, attack and then break your lock which makes your attack unblock-able. You can't do that in Mount & Blade or Mordhau because both of those games have "physical" combat. Now, I attempted to describe this as well as I can but I'm not a Game Developer. I believe most people that have played both Mount & Blade/Mordhau along with For Honor will know what I mean.

Camera locking and target locking are different things. The former is purely a visual aid. The latter would be the much maligned auto attacking button mashing combat spam.

As good as technology is, there's just no way to perfectly simulate being in a fight. In that sense some visual assists makes a lot of sense so you can free up your hands to do the fighting part. You don't control your eyesight with a mouse right? Nor should we in combat simulations. A VR headset or similar eye/head tracking tech would be the best device for handling player focus. Star Citizen showcased this in game recently without a VR device so new possibilities are starting to appear. This will be mainstream technology eventually in the way laptops incorporated webcams.

Caspian, this man knows what he is talking about! I think a lock on camera option would not only be brilliant to include, but it will visually enchance the feel of combat while also making it intriguing to outsiders looking in. It will not hurt the skill base of combat like auto targeting does. The lock on camera option will only aid your character in combat focus but you still have to physically hit your target, block, parry and watch others around you.

• I also suggest having the ability to break focus or be taken out of focus.

• Example if you hear footsteps coming or a sword swinging you can roll or do something to break your camera focus.

• Likewise if a player is sneaky he or she can cast dirt in your eyes or some kind of element to break your focus.

I definitely vouch for this idea and as a lover of combat I think the idea will be innovative and draw more mann unto thee!

Posted By Serverus at 11:20 AM - Fri Dec 29 2017

Caspian, this man knows what he is talking about! I think a lock on camera option would not only be brilliant to include, but it will visually enchance the feel of combat while also making it intriguing to outsiders looking in. It will not hurt the skill base of combat like auto targeting does. The lock on camera option will only aid your character in combat focus but you still have to physically hit your target, block, parry and watch others around you.

• I also suggest having the ability to break focus or be taken out of focus.

• Example if you hear footsteps coming or a sword swinging you can roll or do something to break your camera focus.

• Likewise if a player is sneaky he or she can cast dirt in your eyes or some kind of element to break your focus.

I definitely vouch for this idea and as a lover of combat I think the idea will be innovative and draw more mann unto thee!

You're assuming that someone wont instantly start swinging as soon as dirt is thrown into their face. Which is what would become the cheese tactic, and I wouldn't like to see that happening. They could always allow people to change which combat camera scheme they would like, completely nullify lock-ons all together and add an option for a static camera when changing your directional attack. And you can't forget that Melee combat having a lock-on system would make it far easier than ranged combat, essentially killing it off.

Morne: I am not too sure. The main problem of For Honor is Ubisoft to be honest. The game, mechanics and all are amazing, but Ubi does not care about anything else but Money. The peer-to-peer connections, bugs that are not fixed after months of reporting, glitches (like the lock-on cancel). And the biggest facepalm when Ubi did not care about balancing so Tournament organizers were forced to ban an in-game character from the tournament because it was too OP, easy (spam) and unfun, but Ubi wouldn't do anything about it. And it's just sad that the gaming company does not care about the main issues so tournament organizers have to do their job at least for their tournaments... And if you think it's just For Honor, R6 Siege is the same. 2 years after release, still same bugs as in Beta, game crashes every 2nd game (if you don't set higher priority in task manager), spawn camping etc. It makes me sad that these great games are left in dust without care :( (well, they have season passes and new heroes that you have to buy lol)

Hieronymus: VR would be awesome, if the computer would be able to handle it haha.

Serverus: In For Honor (sorry I mention it so many times, it feels like I am biased lol) you can focus by pressing Alt and cancel it by pressing it again OR if you feel the situation is dare, you can cancel it by running to create some distance and see what to do next. Usually you just back off with a dodge and it's enough, but sometimes, the running off few meters is the best to regain composure.

Morne: In real life I would start swinging too, to try to keep a distance. But the attacker can get to your back easily if you can't see. Anyway, this and other things (my worries too) can be countered by having slow-ish movement and slow-ish swings (depends on the weapon) so you can't just swing 10 times in 2s like in a hacknslash games. Or if you think people will swing randomly to victory, then there can be stamina. IRL you can swing a heavy sword just a few times in a row before feeling weak and unable to swing anymore. Ranged combat, I don't see why it would be killed by anything. Melee character can lock-on but you can't lock on to arrows and I doubt you will be able to sprint fast with some pieces of heavy armor compared to the archer who could be using leather only, being able to run longer or faster. I think it will be hard to balance out though since Archers can shoot from great distances and run away when needed (making it hard for the melee range combatants to get close).

Thank you guys for your opinions, I think we can always learn something new and it seems people have great ideas for the game (or the combat specifically as we are here). Let's hear more opinions whenever there are some. And if you are wondering, I am not usin quotes because it would make the text wall huge since I reply to several people at once haha.