Posted By markof at

• can we drag the barge on skis or logs to move it on ground ?

If not, we need this tech. This would be very useful in many biomes. A game changer for traveling merchants.

Why not just bring the otterbears aboard to rest?

Invent it to give a guy giving pressies to kids.

Posted By markof at

• can we drag the barge on skis or logs to move it on ground ?

i would think so - i had thought of:

with the architecture tool able to be used to build/design siege engines, wagons as well as boats, i don't think it's too far fetched that somebody will figure out how to attach axles and wheels to a boat?

Posted By markof at

• can the otterbears be replaced by a rowboat ?
• can we towe the barge behind 4 otterbears for increased speed

Have you ever been in a rowboat and tried to tow another boat? It's extremely difficult. Horses could be hitched on the bank to pull the barge through the river and the barge can use the rudder to steer away from the banks. I'm sure the extra drag from constantly steering away from the banks would cause the horses to become exhausted faster than they normally would.

More otterbears doesn't necessarily mean more speed. If two can already pull the barge at their max swim speed, adding two more otterbears doesn't mean they can all magically swim faster. More work animals on the same load means more pulling capacity for larger loads and lower stamina drains (up to a point. If 10 horses pull a load just fine then 20 horses is just overkill without reducing the stamina drain)

Thank you Snipehunter, your interventions always help :)

@Drun Redforge "Have you ever been in a rowboat and tried to tow another boat?" yes i have, and yes it is hard especially when the rowboat is not adapted. BUT first i am not the one that called the only other type of boat at our disposal rowboat, then before steam engine, all towing in ports were done by rowboats ,

and the question was not if towing with a rowboat was a viable alternative, but was it an alternative at all.

That question was also hinting as you mentioned to will it be possible to tow the barge with anything else but otterbears ? on earth barges have been towed from land a we do not have otterbears, towpath were used with horses, men or any draft animal. And yes that is probably not an optimal option but the question, once again, is more to know if it is an option at all.

Now about the number of draft animal attached to your towed vehicle, you are right, adding animals do not make your vehicle faster, or rather at constant load and speed adding extra animal reduce individual effort per animal. To a limit, more animals past a point are harder to drive and generate counterproductive problems. So if a team of otterbears already pull your barge at max swimming speed, adding 2 more would not make that barge faster, but would, tire each otterbear less or would allow you to increase the load of the barge without reducing speed. And i never talked about 10 or 20 draft animals but 4, the usual arrangement of horses to pull an hipomobile vehicle are 1, 2 (side by side or one in front of the other), 3 (side by side or in a triangular formation, unicorn), 4, 6 or 8.I am sure if other arrangement than 1 or by pair were to exist they would need to be researched.

You could add all those questions and end up with will it ever be possible to end up with something like a barge train, with 3 or 4 barges towed to each other and pulled by 8 otterbears and manned by a crew only a little larger than a one barge crew and a lot less than 4 barges crew?

Or something along that line.... With all the extra-large settlements that the community created (merging and token pileup) we already know hat a non trivial number of settlements will need to be supported by large importations flux, with starting technology, the individual capacity of each vehicle will be limited and as such will require lots and lots of those. I do not know how long will research on larger vehicles will take, but if combination of existing ones is possible that might be a solution to help support those extra-large settlements while waiting for more adequate solutions.

The upper limit on the speed of a towed barge isn't likely to be the top speed of the animals towing it, but the top speed of the barge after the effects of its bow wave are taken into account.

Shorter boats tend to have lower top speeds than longer boats, because of bow waves. A shorter boat will have to go "uphill" into the crest of the wave at a lower speed than a longer boat will. Of course, this rule applies to conventional boats and ships with hulls in the water. Hydrofoils and hydroplanes can mitigate the restriction, but at a much higher cost in motive energy.

Kudos to @Markof for his post with pictures about towing boats with land animals (including humans). This was the way it was done in RL before steam engines. The old tune "Volga Boatmen" is a great musical interpretation of what human towmen thought of the work, IMO.

Very interesting thread. I share with you all the belief that barges will change how big settlements will develop and sustain themselves. Nice research @Markof!

Posted By Eurickdm at 4:06 PM - Tue May 15 2018

If not, we need this tech. This would be very useful in many biomes. A game changer for traveling merchants.

Agreed. Hope to see this in-game.

By reading your posts, a couple of questions came into my mind.

• Without otters/people on river banks towing them, barges should not be able to move against the river current, am I right? After all, they don't have sails, and I don't think pole "walking" is feasible when moving an heavy load...but I might be wrong here.
• Should river otters be able to swim in salt water as well? I'm thinking about sea near-coastal navigation here.
• I think that a certain number of wild animals (or even aggressive NPC or players) could threat otterbears, as they faithfully move barges around. Will they be able to defend themselves, to a certain degree?

Posted By Snipehunter at 03:24 AM - Wed May 16 2018

Posted By Drun Redforge at 5:00 PM - Tue May 15 2018

Have you ever been in a rowboat and tried to tow another boat? It's extremely difficult. Horses could be hitched on the bank to pull the barge through the river and the barge can use the rudder to steer away from the banks. I'm sure the extra drag from constantly steering away from the banks would cause the horses to become exhausted faster than they normally would.

More otterbears doesn't necessarily mean more speed. If two can already pull the barge at their max swim speed, adding two more otterbears doesn't mean they can all magically swim faster. More work animals on the same load means more pulling capacity for larger loads and lower stamina drains (up to a point. If 10 horses pull a load just fine then 20 horses is just overkill without reducing the stamina drain)

Precisely. (and arguably, those 20 horses bring the overall efficiency of the tow way down - those 10 extra horses don't really contribute to the pulling force, but do consume resources and get in the way.)

How else do you show your status as the king?

I don't know how it's in other countries, but in the Netherlands having your carriage pulled by 8 horses is a privilege reserved only for the ruling head of state, while 6 horses was for princes and such.

Posted By Qinos at 11:56 AM - Wed May 16 2018

Very interesting thread. I share with you all the belief that barges will change how big settlements will develop and sustain themselves. Nice research @Markof!

Posted By Eurickdm at 4:06 PM - Tue May 15 2018

If not, we need this tech. This would be very useful in many biomes. A game changer for traveling merchants.

Agreed. Hope to see this in-game.

By reading your posts, a couple of questions came into my mind.

• Without otters/people on river banks towing them, barges should not be able to move against the river current, am I right? After all, they don't have sails, and I don't think pole "walking" is feasible when moving an heavy load...but I might be wrong here.
• Should river otters be able to swim in salt water as well? I'm thinking about sea near-coastal navigation here.
• I think that a certain number of wild animals (or even aggressive NPC or players) could threat otterbears, as they faithfully move barges around. Will they be able to defend themselves, to a certain degree?

As for your last question, Otter Bears are also mentioned as fearsome war mounts. I suppose that an attack on them is at your own risk.

Posted By markof at 02:26 AM - Wed May 16 2018

Thank you Snipehunter, your interventions always help :)

@Drun Redforge "Have you ever been in a rowboat and tried to tow another boat?" yes i have, and yes it is hard especially when the rowboat is not adapted. BUT first i am not the one that called the only other type of boat at our disposal rowboat, then before steam engine, all towing in ports were done by rowboats !

You literally read the first sentence and skipped over the second sentence and then continued to give a personal experience that solidified my second sentence. Thanks.

You then went on to share pictures of exactly what I was talking about and got all the credit for your research. It's just too funny :D

@Drun Redforge, if you pay attention, i gave credit, "as you mentioned" and "you're right".

I think that if you had not been dismissing the ideas and jumping straight to extremes, people would have been more inclined to see your points which are totally valid ones,

pulling a vehicle with draft animal can be done with different kind of animals provided they can travel the area you need your vehicle to be pulled thru.

adding draft animals to the pulling teams stop being effective past a limit (in most cases), and when effective adding animals will not increase max speed when reach with fewer animals.

The searches i made were to illustrate my points, not to find them.

Yes on earth barges can be and have been pulled by rowboat, so the question was worth asking. Pulling a barge could be replaced by a pontoon boat or a floating house... It was possible to extend the question to will it be possible from a moving watercraft to pull an other watercraft.

yes adding draft animals help, there is a limit past which it is counterproductive, it does not increase max speed if already reached with less animals, but it definitely helps, either by allowing you to pull heavier load, or to pull it longer or if max speed was not reached, to increase speed. On long travels, being able to move longer each day will make your trip shorter, keeping your draft animals from tiring too much will keep them into better shape and happier, pulling heavier loads is self explanatory.

The option to add draft animals to pull vehicles already exist, vehicles have size and to pull one you need a draft animal at least of the same size, or you can use two animals smaller to pull a vehicle one size larger. EP values are out of date and the name of the thouroughbred is now Purebred Horse, but the idea is there. It was possible to extend the question to will it be possible to pull a vehicle with more than 2 draft animals and what effects would that produce ?

Searching additional information or sources is helpful, not only to illustrate your point but also to help people understand them. Am i an expert into horse arrangements ? No, to be honest i knew only the minimum about it, Maulvorn, the horse lord, could have probably explain everything better and faster, i had to research to be able to back my points, that work i decided to include some of it to help others non fellow experts and they only recognize the extra effort.

I am not dismissing your points, as i said they are valid, but as valid as they are they do not make mine invalid.

I didn't find the "as you mentioned" part as giving me credit as you intended. You assumed I had no idea of work animals pulling barges from the river bank and was instead taking your original question further, which you apparently intended. You didn't give me credit for anything until halfway through your post. I got the impression that you inferred my first post was a hostile one trying to work against you, though it was not my intention. I merely presented things I knew to be fact.

I never said using a rowboat would be impossible to tow with yet I feel you took it as such. My apologies. However, I fail to see how I jumped to extremes if you literally highlighted the exact same points I made and gave illustrations to help get the other readers up to speed on the ideas I originally presented.

I'm wasn't trying to gain anything from my reply or this one. I was just trying to be helpful by giving better alternatives you seemed to not know were possible. I have to admit that I took offense when you so quickly thanks Snipehunter while only acknowledging one of my points being correct halfway through your reply post even though you supported the other idea as being true in the first half. That was the reason behind, "You then went on to share pictures of exactly what I was talking about and got all the credit for your research. It's just too funny :D"

I'm sorry you feel like I was dismissing your ideas. I'm sorry you took everything the wrong way. I'm only trying to be helpful. As the first delivery business on NA-E (possibly all of the servers) I know my trade and the evolution of transportation throughout history. I was giving my insight without tearing down your questions, because they were fair questions.