3 April

Design Journal: Crafting Redux

By Snipehunter

Crafting Reexamined

Most of you that have spent any time in our Discord server are probably aware that I owe the community a design journal about our approach to crafting. So, here we are! We've taken a pretty deep dive into the crafting system, with a very critical eye towards what it takes to make crafting stand as a powerful, compelling experience on its own. This approach to crafting is incredibly research intensive and that takes time. But that work is done and I’m proud of what we’ve done as a team, so let’s talk about it!

As we go through the improvements we’ve made to crafting, we’re going to primarily follow Blacksmithing. This sort of mirrors the original design journal on the topic, but it’s also a popular craft in fantasy games, so it makes sense to use it as our example. We might pull in a few examples from other crafts as well but, mostly, you’re going to hear about hot iron a lot.

Why the Redux? (What we sought to accomplish)

In our original approach to crafting, our guiding principle was to keep the game focused on both player skill and character skill. This is what led us to the “mini-game” approach of our design. It was a good design, in that it accomplished exactly what we set out to but, in doing so, it highlighted an important element that we had not addressed: Mini-games don’t feel like elements of the world; they feel apart from the rest of the world.

We considered what to do about it for a long while. We knew that we somehow needed both an approach like a mini-game that could incorporate player skill and a crafting experience that really captured what it felt like to ply the related trade. So, this became our new mantra:

We want experiences that capture the essence of each craft, not minigames.

In fact, “Minigame” became something of a bad word for us. We didn’t exactly throw everything out and start over, but we did take a very critical look at everything that had brought us to the minigame experience and weigh their value in light of our new focus. The result is something new for us: Real-time crafting!


The Crafting Framework

As before, you’ll still be able to sign an apprenticeship contract with a master of your desired trade to learn from them, making it much easier to get started in a crafting profession, before you have the tools and resources you really need to grow your operation. And, as your reputation spreads and your skill grows towards mastery, you’ll find NPCs that will be willing to loan you the money to set up a shop in their area. You can likewise still join a trade school related to your chosen tradecraft and learn directly from masters who are willing to teach. None of that has changed.

We’ve also kept the idea of skill challenges – specifically the core concept of skill challenges requiring an aspect of player skill to ensure success – but we’ve taken a long look at what a skill challenge is, and we’ve made some changes in that regard that I’ll explain in a moment. Overall though, crafting is still about mixing player skill and character skill and requiring both to accomplish the work.

You might be getting the impression that, other than the things I just mentioned, crafting is completely different now, and there’s some truth to that. Still, for all that talk, we also kept a lot of the same ideals and rules. Crafting, from beginning to end, still follows the same “core loop" that forms the basic crafting framework:

  • Use skills to acquire raw materials and learn techniques
  • Use skills and a crafting station to process raw materials into crafting components
  • Use crafting stations, techniques, and skills to transform crafting components into other components
  • Use crafting stations, techniques, and skills to assemble finished products from crafting components

What’s Changed

What’s changed is what a player does at each step of the loop. As much as possible, each step of that loop now mimics the real-life experience that it emulates. Of course, you aren’t going to see a 1-to-1 reproduction. This isn’t “Mining Simulator 2018” for example. I have a rule when it comes to simulating real-world events in game:

“Verisimilitude > Veracity”

Which is to say, “It’s better to feel real than be real.” Wherever possible, we’ve done what we can to streamline and “abstract” the real-world processes we’re emulating, but we’ve been very careful to preserve the “feeling” of performing the acts in question. Smithing, for example, involves a lot of heating, hammering, and grinding. Mining involves a lot of striking and breaking rocks. But we haven’t gone so deeply into either tradecraft that you’ll require real-life experience as a blacksmith to make a knife or a degree in geology to extract iron ore from a mountain. It won’t hurt to know these things in real life though; in some cases, it might even give you a head start in deciding what to do or which tools you might need for a job.

So, how does it all work?


The Crafting Experience

In some sense, the new crafting experience is very similar to our original take. In both systems we begin with harvesting raw materials; be that in the form of mining ore or something a little less labor intensive such as picking herbs. However, even in this first step, changes become apparent. There is no minigame for mining. Instead, you interact with the rock wall containing the vein of ore with your trusty pick-axe equipped and get to breaking rock to prise that ore out of the rock for your use. Picking herbs involves interacting with the plant, grasping the herb at the appropriate places and cutting or pulling to free your bounty from the dirt or the rest of the plant.

In each case, an aspect of player skill is involved. Now, I don’t mean some “arcade” sense of the words “player skill” – I mean that, as a player, it will be on you to learn things like where to strike a vein in the rock to free the most ore, or how best to harvest the edible leaves of an otherwise toxic plant without being poisoned. The world might contain this information but, when you’re in control of your character, it’s your skill that drives their actions. We, in essence, treat your own intuition and player knowledge as the player skill involved here.

Once you have raw materials, you can’t simply drop them into special slots on your character and click “craft” to build something. Those resources need to be processed to be useful. Raw materials are processed into crafting components. Iron ore can be transformed into a billet of iron or steel for use in smithing and those leaves can be dried or pressed to become alchemical components or cooking ingredients. However, doing so requires a certain amount of knowledge in the form of Techniques.

Techniques

Whatever your crafting focus, your trade skill will require the use of one or more different crafting techniques to accomplish anything but the most basic crafting. Techniques are learned processes, or “tricks of the trade” for lack of a better term.

For example, in Blacksmithing, when it comes time to impart hardness into a blade, you quench a heated piece of metal to cool down and draw the internal structure of the metal together, making it harder, but potentially more brittle as well. Depending on what you’re making as a smith, this potential brittleness may or may not matter. But supposing it does, what do you do to try to mitigate it? To keep your blade, for example, both hard and flexible enough to block an incoming strike without snapping? Well, you have quite a few options, and each option is an example of a technique.

A simple example of a technique might be to “edge quench” the blade when it comes time to quench the blade and lock in its hardness, so that you harden only the cutting edge of the blade, leaving its back soft and flexible. To do this you would use a quenching trough rather than the more typical upright quenching vessel you’d see for things like swords. You’d take your heated blade and you’d put only the edge into the trough. If you were a bit more sophisticated – if you knew a different technique – you might instead apply clay to the back of the blade when heating the weapon for quenching so that it doesn’t heat up at the same rate as the edge. In either case, whether you clay the blade or just edge quench it, you’d create a blade that had a softer spine than cutting edge, making the blade more resilient and less likely to snap or shatter. However, each of the methods have their own risks and impart different properties to the blade being quenched.

Techniques are both the way a crafter advances their knowledge of a craft and the way that you can impart your own unique style to your work as a crafter. Many techniques are interchangeable within crafting recipes, allowing you to substitute one technique for another and still produce the item in question. It might be that you’re the master of the edge quench and so you never bother to learn the technique of applying clay to your blade. It might be that you know both techniques but prefer one over the other for the properties it passes on to the finished work. Why you use one technique over another is up to you.

As I hinted at in the previous paragraph, techniques aren’t just processes you can apply in the crafting experience, they’re knowledge that must be learned. So, in some way, techniques also act as progress gates. It might be that a work product requires a specific technique. For example, to make most pattern-welded billets as a blacksmith you need to know how to forge weld. It might also be the case, however, that a technique isn’t required for a specific work product but is required to impart a property to a finished work. A smith might add a fuller to the blade to add the “lightened” property to the weapon, reducing its overall weight, for example.

In a small way, these properties take the place of stat bonuses given to you by gear in traditional MMOs. Properties can change the way a weapon or armor performs in combat, or alter the effect of eating food or drinking potions and other beverages. Techniques can be interchanged when they produce the same result. So for example, you might know several techniques for smelting iron ore into various grades of iron, such as for making steel. Which techniques you use as you complete a recipe will also change which properties are imparted to the resulting item. A smart craftsperson will want to learn as many techniques as they can, because their use is one way for the work to have its own identity and "speak for itself." A smith might use a particular set of techniques to create signature weapons, a baker may know the way to bake chocolate chip cookies that taste like home. Their secret is as likely to be a matter of which techniques they use as it is which ingredients were used.

So how are techniques performed in game? That’s a great question, I’m glad you asked because this is where the new system shines, if you ask me:

The techniques are performed the way they are in real life.

OK, OK, the techniques are performed in a manner that’s really close to the way they’re performed in real life. In fact, why don’t we walk through crafting a sword from ore to finished product?


Real-Time Crafting

When we left off to discuss techniques, we were holding some iron ore in our hands, weren’t we? So, let’s pick up from there: We need to process this ore into iron that we can use to smith with. One way to do this is to heat the ore in the forge until it becomes spongy and then take it to the anvil and hammer it to drive out impurities (“the bloom”). In real history you would use a special furnace called a bloomery for this, but we abstract some of those details out to make things easier without sacrificing the overall feel of the method involved.

So, we have our ore in hand, we head over to our forge and we realize the forge is not lit. That’s OK, not a problem, we can discipline the apprentice later. We’ll just put the ore down, take some coal from our stockpile in hand and carry it over to the forge and put it down, adding it to the forge’s reserve of coal fuel. Once we’ve got coal in the forge we can light the coal using a tinder box and flint kept near the forge and work the bellows to get enough air on it to get the coals going.

Working the Bellows

Had our apprentice been on top of things, the forge would have been hot and ready for us but, as usual, he’s nowhere to be found. So, we’re going to have to do this solo, as they say. The forge is hot now, so we disengage from the bellows arm, pick up our ore, and head back to the forge and put the ore down on the shelf next to the forge to create a pile of ore laden rocks. If we had the knowledge and the tools handy, we could grind the rock and separate out the lighter stone, but that’s an advanced technique and we have no associated recipe memorized or in our journal, so we can’t really go that route. Instead we’ll do this bloomery style, which is just a fancy way of saying we’re going to heat the rock up and beat the impurities out of it until there’s nothing left but iron. To do this we’ll open our journal and find the bloom refining recipe, then interact with our forge with the recipe open to let CoE know that’s what we’re doing.

After that, all that’s left is to physically perform each step of the recipe. So, we start by taking the biggest stone from the pile and we add it to the bed of coals using a pair of tongs we keep near the forge for this purpose.

When you add an item to the forge while the coals are firing, you’re placing the object within one of several heating zones within the forge, though you won’t see them as an element of your UI or anything. The coals in the forge will tell you which are hottest by their color, the way the air shimmers above them, the sound of their burning, and any visible flame they emit. The point here is that where you put your object in the forge matters. In this basic smelting technique we’re using, it doesn’t matter too much but, when you’re heating your steel it’s possible to make the steel unhardenable and essentially worthless if you’re not careful with it in the forge. These heating zones help us to calculate and simulate such risks.

But for now, what we’re looking for is for the ore to transform into its spongy state, so we can start to hammer the sh- stuff out of it on the nearby anvil. As we see the ore begin to change shape it morphs its shape slightly and its visual representation changes, as does the sound it makes in the fire. If we consult what we’ve learned about our technique via its recipe, we would know these cues mean it's ready.

Using the tongs, we can pick up the hot spongy rock in the coals, disengage from the forge, and move over to the anvil. Picking up a hammer in our other hand on the way, we click on the anvil with either the tongs or the hammer and the camera is positioned over the anvil to show us the anvil and our tools. If we move the mouse, we position the hammer on the anvil, if we click with its tool button we’ll strike with the hammer, driving out a bloom of useless material and hot dust. With each hit we do a little more, the object slowly morphing into a small nugget of wrought iron. However, all of this takes time, and the moment that rock leaves the forge it starts to cool, so we have a limited time to strike at it with the hammer until we need to heat again. Hit the rock while it’s too cold and it could crack and crumble, leaving us with rocks too small for this process to smelt.

We can do this with each of the rocks in our smithy, leaving us with a pile of wrought iron nuggets we can then pound together into an iron bar using a technique called forge welding, or we could put them in a crucible or canister and melt them into the form of a bar. It would really depend on what techniques and recipes our character knows. Once we have an iron bar we can likewise convert it into steel using a few different techniques. One method is to take the wrought iron and some pig iron or other high-carbon steel and slowly mix them together (“confuse them”) in a crucible so that the wrought iron takes up the carbon and turns into steel which, for this narrative, we’ll use now.

It’s essentially about getting the mix right and letting the metal melt in the crucible at this point. However, with literally every crafting process, there’s a chance that something could go wrong. We call these “crafting challenges” and they are more likely to happen when the recipe you are attempting is difficult for your character, based on your character’s skill level. The more difficult the recipe – the wider the gap between your character’s skill level and the recipe’s difficulty – the more likely you are to see crafting challenges, but don’t worry: a crafting challenge is something that you can usually resolve with player skill. For example, as we place our crucible in the forge, ash from the coals might foul an airway and threaten the ability of the coals to stay hot. If we do nothing, the crucible won’t get hot enough to confuse the two metals inside but, as a player who notices this has happened, all we really need to do is rake the coals and allow air to pass through the coals cleanly again.

Once we have our crucible of molten steel we’ll want to make a billet out of it, so we’ll pour the molten steel into a mold and let it cool enough to solidify. At that point we can break it out of its mold, get it into a pair of tongs, and get back to work.

Now, like most craftable objects, swords are componential. They’re made of a blade, a pommel, a guard, and some sort of handle/grip material. We’ll make a classic Neran longblade which calls for a double-edged blade with a fuller, a simple metal cross guard, a wrapped handle, and a metal pommel. Scrounging around our smithy, we realize we already have a steel cross guard, a brass pommel, and some silver wire we can use as the handle wrap, so all we really need to make is the blade.

To do that we find the double-edged blade recipe in our journal, open it up, and step up to the forge. We need to wait for the steel bar we’re heating to get white-hot, so we pick it up in the tongs and move it to what we feel is the hottest part of the fire, all the while watching its color and listening to the sounds coming from the forge. When the metal is hot enough, the color will change to a bright yellow-white and the tone of the fire in the forge will change so that, if we’re paying attention as players, we’ll have the cues we need to know the metal is ready without any HUD elements from the UI or progress bars filling up our screen. Knowing when the time is right is a piece of the player skill element of crafting.

Heating Metal in the Forge

Every forge will heat a little differently, so you can’t simply use time in the fire as an exact measurement of when the metal will be ready. Likewise, the recipe for a longblade says to “heat the billet until it is yellow-white” with no reference to an exact measure to tell you when that time is. You must gain a sense of the metal yourself and use that as a judge for the best time to pull the metal from the forge and bring it to the anvil. This is true of nearly every crafting trade in the game as well. In Alchemy, you will never see recipes that call for “heating the ingredients at 220-degrees for 10 minutes” instead you’ll find recipes that say things like “in a hot flame, heat the ingredients until they blacken and the fire’s scream grows more shrill, but do not let the fire grow silent for the ingredients will be ruined.”

Now, there is one sort of game-like element to this idea of having little or no UI for your crafting work. Each of the crafting stations and techniques that you use have "tells" like the color of the metal as it's heated, or the sound it makes in the fire. In real life, there's usually only one "tell," if any, and real craftspeople learn their own indicators for when the time is right to do something. However, in a game your senses are limited, and even as a player you may have challenges that make seeing these tells difficult. Because of this, there is almost always two tells for perfect timing when you perform each technique, one is visual, the other auditory. This way you can decide for yourself which indicator works best for your circumstances.

Once we’re ready, we take up the tongs again and pick up the billet, leaving the forge to take the billet to the anvil. As we engage the anvil, we’re shown the close-up view again. If we hold down the button for the hand holding our tongs, we can position the billet on the anvil as we move our mouse. Letting go of the button will “lock” the item there. Now we need a hammer, so we pull a hammer from our inventory into our other hand, making it visible in the anvil view. Like the tongs we can position the hammer by moving the mouse, though with the hammer in our hand, we do not need to hold down that hand's use button to do so. Instead we use that hand's button to strike where the hammer is positioned.

Where we hammer on the billet matters. We’re trying to draw out the shape of the longblade and, every time we strike the billet while it’s hot, we spread the metal out at the point of impact. How far the metal spreads depends on the hammer, your character’s strength, and the temperature of the metal. As you strike with the hammer, the game analyzes the impact point and determines if the strike was helpful or not. If the strike was helpful, the metal will move slightly more in the direction of the proper shape. If the strike was not helpful, however, the metal will move closer to a misshaped piece of useless junk. So, knowing where to strike matters. And of course, the metal is cooling every moment it's out of the forge fire, so you only have a limited time with the hammer before you have to put the metal back into the forge to heat it back up. This makes forging the blade a sort of back and forth loop between the two crafting stations; starting at the forge to heat the billet up, then taking the billet to the anvil and setting to work.

Strike while the iron is hot!

This back and forth continues until the blade is approximately the correct shape or something happens to ruin the blade. Anvil crafting challenges can be as simple as losing your grip with the tongs – sending hot metal to the smithy floor – or they can be serious problems that introduce flaws into your blade if they are not resolved. For example, attempting to work the metal while it’s too cold might result in the metal cracking, or you might work all the carbon out of the blade if you take too long forging it, making it unhardenable and essentially worthless.

And the chance for problems grows as more advanced techniques are applied to the weapon. A Neran longblade is a fullered weapon, which means that, in addition to forging out the rough shape of the blade, we need to work a fuller down the centerline of the blade using our fullering tools. To do this we pick up our fullering block and attach it to the anvil’s hardy hole. Then when we pull our blade out of the forge, we place it between the striking elements of the fullering tool, and strike the fullering tool with the hammer. However, any number of crafting challenges could arise out of this scenario depending on our character’s skill. We could make the fuller too deep or too shallow which imparts undesirable qualities to the blade or we could deform the blade accidentally and introduce a warp we’ll have to correct. We could even break the fullering tool itself, depending on its condition. But, if we succeed, what we have is a sword blank for a longblade. A workable piece of steel we can then quench to harden.

To quench the blade, we take it back to the forge and we heat it up. If we’re tricky about it, we might thermocycle the blade, heating the blade up and then letting it cool and repeating the process several times to normalize the steel and make it less likely to deform as it cools. But once we’re ready to quench, we need to get the blade good and hot without overheating it and driving out the carbon that give the blade its resilience. Once we’re happy with its heat-color, we take the blade in tongs, exit the forge, and approach the quenching vessel. We’ll use the vertical quenching vessel, a barrel filled with an oil we acquired just for this purpose. As we interact with the vessel, we see an overhead view of the barrel with our sword blade and tongs above it. We can position the blade with the mouse and then press the button that corresponds to the hand holding our tongs to submerge the blade in the oil, holding the button down for the duration we keep the blade submerged, only releasing the button when it's time to remove the blade from the oil.

The whole time the blade is submerged, the oil will hiss and smoke. If we’re lucky the blade will be mostly silent, but we might hear a ting or a whistle or worse, a pop or crack, which would indicate that something happened in the quench which will negatively affect the blade. We won’t know what the problem is when that happens until we remove the blade and inspect it, though the most common hazard at this stage is the blade warping, which can, in theory, be fixed using an anvil tool called the bending forks. Let’s assume that things went well for us here though, and our hardened long blade emerges from the oil in perfect condition. All that’s really left is to clean the blade up and grind the edges into either side of the blade. For that we need the grinding wheel.

So, we take the blade in one hand and we approach the grinding wheel, interacting with it to show us the detailed view of this crafting station. Now we can position the blade with the mouse and click the associated hand's button to press the blade against the wheel. The wheel must be spun, which we can do by interacting with its treadle, spinning the wheel with our feet. Here things can get a little tricky. It’s possible to apply an edge irregularly if we’re not careful, or to overgrind parts of the blade so that it gains some negative properties or loses some quality. Likewise, we need to pay attention to how we’re using the wheel so that we don’t forget to lubricate the wheel with water or oil as needed to prevent it from overheating or grabbing the blade and literally yanking it from our hands to go flying across the smithy.


But, dangers of crafting challenges aside, the process for grinding our blade is straightforward, we “plane” the blade across the wheel as we press it against the grinding surface. This removes material from the blade and, if we do it right, imparts an edge at the same time. When we’re done, we’ll have finished the work of transforming some basic iron into a steel blade ready to be assembled into a Neran longblade.

Assembly can be done just about anywhere. You can do it in the field and you can disassemble a sword in the field as well. To assemble a sword, you simply use your crafting skill on the blade, select the recipe you’re assembling, and then select each of the components used in final assembly from your inventory, one by one, starting with the guard, then the hilt, and finally the pommel. The recipe might require you use tools (such as a hammer or glue) at this stage, but many weapons are pressure fit and require nothing but your character’s physical strength for final assembly. And when that final assembly is done, we’re left with a Neran Longblade we built ourselves, with all our triumphs and defeats literally hammered into it. Inspecting the weapon will reveal its properties, allowing us to see exactly what we’ve wrought.

In Conclusion

As you can see, crafting is a lot more than simply waiting out a bar. Crafting is a game itself, with each trade feeling as closely like its Earth counterpart as we can get without making things so complicated you need to be a real tradesman in real life to get the job done. That said, the entire thing is about experience -- but every element of that experience still boils down to our core framework:

  • Raw materials are harvested (Iron ore is mined)
  • Harvested materials are processed into components (Iron ore becomes wrought iron)
  • Components can be combined and/or processed into other components (wrought iron becomes a steel billet which becomes a blade with some work)
  • Components are assembled into a final product (Blade, guard, handle and pommel become a Neran Longblade)

But the inclusion of both player skill and character skill, in the form of crafting challenges combines with the pairing of player and character knowledge in the form of techniques, recipes, and real-time in-world cues to turn that simple framework into an immersive real-time crafting experience that gets rid of the worst elements of crafting we are so used to seeing in traditional MMOs.

This level of detail and attention is necessary to create the evolving world of Elyria. Every object – from foodstuff to siege engines – can be crafted in Chronicles of Elyria but the process of taking raw materials and turning them into those objects is hard and labor intensive. You can't really do it alone without making it your soul's endeavor. Instead, it's easier to share the work: The miner mines and smelts, the bladesmith turns steel ingots into blades, and the whitesmith or the jeweler turns silver wire into an ornate handle. Together they can produce masterpieces daily.

In Elyria, crafting isn’t something you do quickly while you adventure. True mastery will take effort and each of our trades is a career path that fuels the beating heart of the world's economy.

Discuss

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Neiph - 4 months ago

The usual method seen for swords is utilizing what is called a “hidden tang” basically the steel is formed in a rough blade shape, with a bit on the handle side formed to fit into a shaped handle. Sometimes a pommel is added on the end after the handle and cross guard are assembled. This will help keep everything in place, along with an epoxy type substance used on the tang. The very end of the tang will protrude from the grip, and be threaded, or a pommel will be flash welded. A common knife generally uses a “full tang” and the “handles” are called scales. Scales are made of bone, wood, even metal, and the tang has holes drilled to evenly distribute weight and allow bolts or rivets to affix the scales to the tang. I only do knife making as a hobby but these are some basic things I was taught. Figured I would pass it on and see if it could help.

Zsiledifyshk - 4 months ago

After re-reading the Crafting Redux and all of the ensuing comments, I for one (as a wannabe crafter), am excited for this mechanic, this technique. I could really care less about how much time it takes IRL (they obviously are aware of the fact that it has to be within reason, but also feel like an adequate amount of time within the game time). This game will probably consume my life when it launches. But, the level of detail in every little thing is something I've been waiting for in a game for a long, long time. I hope they put as much thought and creativity into all the other aspects of the game pre and post launch. Thumbs up from me - just gets me more excited.

Cheers!

draxdeveloper - 5 months ago

man, this skyrocketed my hype. THIS is what i am looking for in crafting system and what i am waiting in a MMORPG that i would actually play.

Just to add two questions here:

the said attributes will be mechanical descriptive or immersive? IN other words, it will say the damage and speed or the sharpness and weight (just an example) and the players would have to know that a sword with more sharpness would give more cutting damage and a heavier sword would be slower but would give more blunt damage.

Also, can we create a mark and but in the sword?

And you need a share button on facebook

Andariel_Forodae - 5 months ago

Absolutely Marvelous! I cannot wait to see this in-game!

Amberic - 5 months ago

Most awesome

Salvador - 5 months ago

It looks better than the original idea! Much encouragement!

Cptherballife - 5 months ago

Mmmh I found something new and nice

Conklin - 5 months ago

Woah, this is so far ahead of anything else - in constant awe

Spinam - 5 months ago

Creativity is a precursor of innovation. We got a glimpse of the crafting, when are we gonna see a little bit of how research is gonna work?

Are we unlocking items like Civ 5 by generically dumping in 'research' time at a station, or are we triggering hints and clues based on repeated experimentation?

Is research going to be character or player driven?

How is research going to into the engine's information sharing system that is supposedly rendering meta-gaming useless?

What is the scale of research groups? Will I suddenly be able to craft a rifle if I cross county lines?

What is research and its value in Elyria if players are from the 21st century? Is it all just a synonym for skill tutoring or are we actually creating and discovering new items?

Spinam - 5 months ago

My curiosity lies in how robust the game mechanics are going to be to allow for player innovation. For the sake of research, can we experiment with weapon shape? After telling the game we're forging a blade, are we limited unless we specifiy the intended outcome? Can I just start hammering and based solely on the tools and motions, create a scimitar, katana, or khopesh? And for experimented outcomes, can we then store those outcomes for creation by OPC?

For example, will weapon damage be a product of dynamic physics (weapon mass, cutting edge, speed of impact, target density, etc) or predetermined ('x' class weapon does 'y' damage).

WarlanderLichbane - 5 months ago

Its a bit late in the posts but OMFGHS! This style of crafting is not only legit but the semi-realistic approach already is 1000x better then the first concept. Keep up the good work lads!

Then in the first few comments you have people saying that 3 rl hours are like too much trouble to make a perfect quality fighting weapon.

Lol wat?

For a top grade katana of legendary quality it took 36 hours and 26 tons of iron and coal just to smelt high enough quality steel to make one. It then took 3 smiths 3 months to fold and forge the katana into a weapon. After that it takes a sword polisher/sharpener another ten or more days to finish.

European weapons were no different in terms of quality with the only difference being the intention of the use of the weapons.

People have become accustomed to not respecting the actual items these weapons represent or how far the technology has come over thousands of years.

But as much as I think really good swords should take multiple people of multiple disciplines 3 or more months to craft a super epic legendary weapon most entitled peoples of the instanet will complain if anything takes longer than their nanospans can take. Alas the days of working for an epic weapon for a year straight are over.

Also if you cant spend more than 10-60mins to craft a weapon then you simply let it cool and pick it up where you left off when you have time. Nowhere in the whole read did it say you had to do it in one shot and that it was a process of reheating the metal multiple times.

If someone wants to craft a weapon fast and hastily cool try it and see how it performs when confronted by an actual weapon forged by a real sword smith.

Gunnlang - 5 months ago
@WarlanderLichbane:

Posted By WarlanderLichbane at 4/21/2018 10:33:58 PM

Then in the first few comments you have people saying that 3 rl hours are like too much trouble to make a perfect quality fighting weapon.

Lol wat?

Just wanted to add in, the game still has to be fun. They could go full on realistic with everything. But the game isn't aimed to be completely realistic. Also most people either do studying/working. So don't have days on end to perfectly make one sword. Unless you are meaning, you want people to only work on one sword over the course of 4-5 days. Which is 6-8 months in game time. While also having no idea how long tools/weapons even last in elyria could throw everything out even more.

It's impressive how much time and effort went into making one high quality katana. No real point comparing the two. At least until we had a chance to play it. Rough ideas saying is will take around 30 minutes. Anything can change between now and launch.

Lethe_not_Styx - 5 months ago

I feel this is worth making a post for.

I'm not for or against increasing the length in particular. The dev's have a bigger picture of what is involved with crafting and chose that goal number for a master blacksmith making a sword. I presume from the comments about time increasing based upon challenge rating that this sword would be below master level. There is a lot more perspective to this that we aren't going to get at this point. It's been hinted or even outright stated that to get to the apex of any profession will take generations. I'll be generous and presume that becoming a master takes a lifetime. That could be between 7-10 months of focused crafting. Maybe it isn't. The point is that the stated 20-30 minutes is only a small single factor in the time investment involved.

My concern is more that if this time is drastically increased it will cause other problems and shift the focus of crafting from innovation and creativity towards industrialization instead.

We know for sure that the components can be crafted separately. I don't want to see having a team that focuses on each component separately as the only way to be an effective blacksmith. Assembly line production is pretty modern and shouldn't be the only way to survive in an almost medieval or earlier society.

tl;dr I'd expect crafting for a single item by a new blacksmith to be over 30 minutes an item for minimum 6 months. Players might hit that sooner by sparking into an old experienced blacksmith or getting lucky with a soul that was a master blacksmith in a past life.

TheUltimatus - 4 months ago
@Lethe_not_Styx:

People aren't looking much at the time it will take to get the resources needed to you. The industrialization won't be very efficient to begin with because ore and wood are difficult to transport in large quantities to the smithy.

Serpentius - 5 months ago

And to continue this discussion, I give you transcripts of Snipehunter's Q&A on Discord a week ago, compliments of Xeyska and Polite <3

Deadlyapples - 5 months ago

What are there timings for making items at the moment btw or just extrapolated time from the design doc as an estimate. Personally I am ok with lot crafting times but would hate it to be 3 seconds for a sword! haha

ShadowTani - 5 months ago
@Deadlyapples:

Posted By Deadlyapples at 10:05 PM - Wed Apr 18 2018

What are there timings for making items at the moment btw or just extrapolated time from the design doc as an estimate. Personally I am ok with lot crafting times but would hate it to be 3 seconds for a sword! haha

According to Snipehunter a few minutes per part, so about 20-30 mins to complete an entire sword from scratch IF you're a master of your craft (a less skilled player will be looking at as much as an Elyrian day [one to three real life hours depending on if he meant a workday or a full day] attempting the same). Of course, this time likely don't include the time harvesting resources and refining them as other professions should handle that.

That time is plenty reasonable I feel, I like some variation in my gameplay. Though some people here seems to want to spend all their gaming time making that one single sword apparently.

ShadowTani - 5 months ago

Longer time working on the exact same thing will feel more grindy and less fun really, around 30 mins is already a lot of time (which likely doesn't factor in possible skill challenges that may pop up and delay you, especially if you fail them). Most people have a real life job that take 8-10 hours out of their day, even if the game is niche, it still needs to be designed around what can be considered a reasonable gaming session, which should involve more things than just working on one single task.

I'm all for making things challenging, but making it take more time is a cheap way of doing it; patience is not a fun way to be challenged.

A smith should also be able to provide several products within a reasonable time, or we see ridiculous prices for one sword, and the need for 10+ smiths to provide only the bare minimum of gear for a mercenary squad over an Elyrian year (real life week), that be absurd. So it honestly sounds like the developers have it balanced right to me.

I can get behind that the techniques that are available to learn for the more skilled characters, and thus help build the best items, also require more time and effort to be applied, but everything within reason of course.

As for the market concerns, cheap products flooding the market is not really an issue, because the market should adjust itself according to what is in demand. If there is no demand a product won't sell, and it goes off the market, get melted down, and made into something that might actually sell.

A reasonable time to develop something does however mean one isn't screwed if the one thing you made doesn't end up selling, because you had some time to make a few other things too.

Deadlyapples - 5 months ago

I suppose they need to think about the Elyrian vs Realworld time scale and what makes sense there, but also makes sense for gameplay. I personally would be ok with it taking 30 - 40 minutes for an amateur blacksmith to make an ok sword, parts and all. But you also need to remember they need to gather or buy the materials, have them transported, and then there are complications in crafting to take into account. So lets say it takes me 30 minutes to make a Sword. That is a 5th of an Elyrian day which seems reasonable to the timescale. So 1 sword = 30 minutes = about 4.2 elyrian hours. Now that seems reasonable in terms of gameplay, then it is a matter of how that time spent making a sword translates into learning experience for the character and time well spent for the player as well as the value of that sword.

Now in most MMO's it takes about 3 seconds to make a sword once you have the materials. So elyria has a huge difference there and the value of the weapon is based on resources, TIME and EXPERTISE where time and expertise are the most valuable resources I think.

So even if it took 30 minutes on average per item based on character skill and player skill as a dedicated blacksmith you can make progress and the stuff you make is also valuable because of time and expertise put into your creation. Personally I would be bored to death spending 1 hour or more making 1 sword, and I am someone who wants to have a character who is a dedicated craftsman. Obviously different crafts and different recipes = different resources, different time requirements and different values and qualities but anything more than 30 - 40 minutes would be a bit much unless the experience and value is worth that much more.

Dariusacmar - 5 months ago

The major problem with things only taking a short time, such as 20-30 minutes to accomplish, is that people don't value those things. In every game I have ever played, over the course of 30+ years of gaming, the games that accomplish true satisfaction are the ones that I have to work my ass off to accomplish anything of note. Sadly, the gaming industry has turned almost everything into a quick fix. Play a half hour here, or 20 minutes there, with the exception of most MMO's to some degree, just an in and out scenario and they feel they've done something. Some only have that time to play because they have very busy lives. Some only want to spend that time because that action bores them. And that is fine...there are games for them all over the place.

I would like to postulate that this game is for a niche market of players as SBS has mentioned many times. Most of those players will come from other MMO's because they want more. They want a more immersive MMO. They want a more comprehensive MMO. They want a harder and more difficult MMO. These type of people that want a fulfilling MMO (or as we know it a MEOW) won't get it unless the things in it are truly difficult to accomplish. And as sad as it might be for some people, those with only a half hour of time, or an hour of time, won't be able to accomplish much in this MEOW because they simply won't be able to accomplish the minimum needed while playing online so that their OPC can do the maintenance and minimal skill level actions that SBS has said the OPC will be for....and this point is meant to be inclusive of all aspects of the game. Adventuring, combat, crafting, commerce, governance, deviancy and so on.

In summary, I would like to say that if these things are not difficult, difficulty being defined as effort and time in this case, CoE won't be any different in the long run than WoW or Everquest or Rift or EVE, or a combination of all of them....games that started out with great promise, were really good in one way or another, but had the difficulty taken out of them and stopped being fun to play...and more importantly, lost the majority of their player base and hence their money.

Deadlyapples - 5 months ago

Another thing to think about is the market and I see people posting about flooding of markets but remember that there is no Global Auction House or market, if you want to buy or sell it means traveling a long way potentially so first the items have to be made, they weight a certain amount so it will require transport or carrying only a few to the capital for market day. So local markets might be potentially saturated but that doesn't mean every market will. Also I imagine most people when they realize you have to invest in a character life goal like becoming a blacksmith vs becoming an adventurer most people will choose adventure. I mean we will see as the game goes really. Hehe

DukeAlduin - 5 months ago

This design journal looks incredible. Good work SBS 👍🏼

Marovec - 5 months ago

In regards to the actual time involved in "crafting a sword", I think this is where the balance of "realism vs. gameplay" comes into play.

While there may be some of you that want to dedicate 1hr+ or RL time just to make one sword, that may be a bit too "exclusive" for how they are planning on crafting to run. There may not be many people willing/able to dedicate 1hr + to making an item.

On the flip side, I think it also comes down to how much "skill gain" you from each craft. Is it based on number of items crafted (in which case, more time required per item will slow down skill gain significantly), or will it be based on total time spent crafting (in which case requiring 1hr+ time will be more of a matter of convenience than anything else).

Treava - 5 months ago

This is an awesome implementation. I can't wait to see it in real time.

Gromschlog - 5 months ago

I'm really impressed... by nearly anything. I feel like, if everything in the game really has the depth you show for crafting, jousting and all those things... what stays is: can the AI really fulfill that? Will the world still function without players in it or will it collapse? Will the game ever be finished, if everything has so much depth? Whenever you release something like this dev journal, I'm even more amazed and really hope for the game to get released. But on the same side, whenever I read something like that, I feel like I'm dreaming or made fun of because it just cant be real with this budget.

Mhaura - 5 months ago
@Gromschlog:

Posted By Gromschlog at 3:22 PM - Sun Apr 15 2018 > >I feel like I'm dreaming or made fun of because it just cant be real with this budget.

If you feel that way, support Soulbound Studios and pledge a package, even the minimum! Support production!

Gromschlog - 5 months ago
@Mhaura:

Posted By Mhaura at 5:12 PM - Mon Apr 16 2018

Posted By Gromschlog at 3:22 PM - Sun Apr 15 2018 > >I feel like I'm dreaming or made fun of because it just cant be real with this budget.

If you feel that way, support Soulbound Studios and pledge a package, even the minimum! Support production!

Thats what I did. But I wont throw hundreds of € into a dream, when I usually dont even spend one hundred € on games in an average year at all. I've never put more money into a game than this. And its not even close to done. If there was proof that it will come true, I might put in more... but not this time. Maybe next year or overnext... if the game makes it live, I'll support it for many years for sure. Till then, I'll talk to friends about how crazily awesome it sounds... which already brought attention to the game by some people... including new players that bought packages... but most react like "yea, if it was true, it would be awesome. but they wont make it. Tell me in 3 years if I was wrong and I'll join"

Brahman - 5 months ago

Been waiting for this day since Q&A's with Bicycle Walrus... I'm sure that won't be the last time I say that =P.

AltonBlack - 5 months ago

The way I see it, you basically have two choices here.

You can work together with a team to create a solid product for sale, each of you working on your specialization, producing multiple items over a relatively short period of time.

Or you can spend all of your time mastering multiple disciplines to create a single unique item worth much more.

Let us use a sword as an example. A sword smith shop could produce very serviceable blades of various styles for a relatively small amount of money. The kind of sword the military would buy in bulk.

A master smith who produces one sword in a year, would create a single special item for one client at a time. There would be no weapon like it in Elyria, and probably few equal to it. Those weapons would be priceless, like a Kamakura Katana in our world.

I can see the value and benefit of either methodology.

Marovec - 5 months ago

@Logain

I may be confused, but it sounds like what you are concerned about is no different than the concern any MMO has with countering bots.

If someone with the appropriate technical know-how wants to create a bot to do something in an MMO - they will. I have yet to find an MMO that doesn't have them to some extent (to what extent varies from game to game).

As such, they question seems to be less about how the crafting system will/will not encourage bots, and more about how they will be "handling security" (so to speak) as a whole.

I mean, you either have an "automated" crafting system (click and craft) so "bots" don't matter, or you add some type of mini-game to make crafting immersive, but understand that someone sufficiently skilled will be able to automate the process no matter what (which goes back to "security").

No system is going to be fool-proof. I guess my question is, what are you suggesting they do instead?

Leilah - 5 months ago

Nice, this kinda reminds me of Wurm Online as far as the difficulty goes but much more advanced; and more of an immersion of you (us) in the process. Listening, watching for things that most MMO players get up and walk away and let the UI complete it or tell us when its done or ready.. Very nice..

That Guy - 5 months ago

TBH I'm a little disappointed by the whole recipes thing. I get it that it's kinda necessary for a balanced system, but I was really hoping for a system with more freedom. There doesn't seem to be any opportunity to innovate here--other than maybe small stat changes within the original recipe. But what if I want to make a slightly thinner blade than normal, or a longer one, or one with a forward curve or a different balance... Being able to personally shape the blade and infuse my own creativity into it, rather than just banging on it till it fits the template, is the dream for me.

Snipehunter - 5 months ago
@That Guy:

Posted By That Guy at 4:26 PM - Wed Apr 11 2018

TBH I'm a little disappointed by the whole recipes thing. I get it that it's kinda necessary for a balanced system, but I was really hoping for a system with more freedom. There doesn't seem to be any opportunity to innovate here--other than maybe small stat changes within the original recipe. But what if I want to make a slightly thinner blade than normal, or a longer one, or one with a forward curve or a different balance... Being able to personally shape the blade and infuse my own creativity into it, rather than just banging on it till it fits the template, is the dream for me.

There are definitely limitations in the system necessary to enforce certain aspects of the world mechanically, but that said, you may have more freedom here than you realize. While, yes. it's true that you have to use a recipe - components are interchangeable as long as they are of equivalent "component classes."

A recipe for a rapier might require a thin blade, a guard, a handle, and a pommel, but it will allow you to use any thin blade, guard, handle, and pommel. Further, the techniques you use when crafting each component will play into how it looks. Adding a fuller to a blade will literally add a fuller to the blade's model in the game, for example. Decide to build that blade out of ladder Damascus and the metal will have that pattern on the blade, in game.

You are restricted, there's no good way around that for what we're trying to do here, I'm afraid, but you also have far more freedom than the crafting systems available in most, if not all, of the MMOs on the market today.

I hope that helps! :)

Grapefruitkush - 5 months ago

This is insane! At first i thought you were going to say you had to simplify the crafting system... im so glad it was the opposite =)

radkid - 5 months ago

I hope it's possible to craft without any idea what you're doing no recipes or any guidance at all you just feel things out and make your own recipes

Nameless_Necromancer - 5 months ago

Jesus. Well RIP bot makers.

I like this crafting system, though I might not later when I need to buy a weapon and they are all expensive as hell. But that opens opportunities to have stuff like family weapons that are passed down because it's cheaper than making a new sword or because the quality of the blade turned out uniquely good. Not everyone will enjoy or have the skill for crafting, which gives value to the dedicated crafters out there.

Scarcity could be a real thing in CoE, which is an amazing concept. I am just used to collecting a thousand swords off random enemies. Looting weapons off dead players could be very profitable, but at the same time very risky, as blades can be pretty unique and recognizable.

I hope NPCs with full weapons won't be too common, and that the weapons they use can't compare to the ones players can make, OR that NPCs have to buy their weapons the same as regular players. I think it would be amazing to see NPCs come check out my shop and buy some things that they need. Otherwise, there will be a lot more generated weapons on the market rather than custom weapons, and it will probably ruin the economy. Why spend hours crafting when you can kill bandits and sell their generated gear?

Logain - 5 months ago
@Nameless_Necromancer:

Posted By Nameless_Necromancer at 12:37 PM - Wed Apr 11 2018

(...)Well RIP bot makers(...)

I don't understand why people think it would be anywhere near difficult to create a bot for that system? Could you elaborate your way of thought here? If anything bots excel at a system like this?

Posted By Nameless_Necromancer at 12:37 PM - Wed Apr 11 2018

(...)OR that NPCs have to buy their weapons the same as regular players(...)

That's the idea, yes.

Snipehunter - 5 months ago
@Logain:

Posted By Logain at 04:58 AM - Wed Apr 11 2018

I don't understand why people think it would be anywhere near difficult to create a bot for that system? Could you elaborate your way of thought here? If anything bots excel at a system like this?

It's the way challenges work in the crafting experience, I think. The thought, I believe, is that most bots are follow a rote procedure and so couldn't react to the changing nature of crafting. You are, in essence, left with having to build an AI driven character that can play this particular game. And that might even discourage some bot-users, but building AI to play games has been a part of this line of work for longer than I've been a game designer, so I agree that it's not impossible or anything. It will discourage the game equivalent of script kiddies, but we didn't set out to make a bot-proof mechanic here. We set out to make a crafting system that supported the economic systems we're building and one that feels right. Bots we're dealing with in other ways.

Hope that helps! :)

Leonim - 5 months ago
@Snipehunter:

About appraisal

How much can you trust your character's senses when crafting? How will you judge a component? a material? your finished product? a product made by a colleague? How will you value any of that forementionned stuff?

Since I think that appraisal (a mix of expertise, feedback, knowledge and gut feeling) is an intricate part of the any crafting process, my two main questions are :

  • "how appraisal will work?"

  • "will the appraisal skill/technique exists globally, per main discipline (smith, carpenter) or computed to each recipe from a mix of factors?".


About the relative unusefulness of botting in Elyria :

Posted By Snipehunter at 11:22 PM - Wed Apr 11 2018

Posted By Logain at 04:58 AM - Wed Apr 11 2018

I don't understand why people think it would be anywhere near difficult to create a bot for that system? Could you elaborate your way of thought here? If anything bots excel at a system like this?

It's the way challenges work in the crafting experience, I think. The thought, I believe, is that most bots are follow a rote procedure and so couldn't react to the changing nature of crafting. You are, in essence, left with having to build an AI driven character that can play this particular game. And that might even discourage some bot-users, but building AI to play games has been a part of this line of work for longer than I've been a game designer, so I agree that it's not impossible or anything. It will discourage the game equivalent of script kiddies, but we didn't set out to make a bot-proof mechanic here. We set out to make a crafting system that supported the economic systems we're building and one that feels right. Bots we're dealing with in other ways.

> Hope that helps! :)

It does. ^^

@Logain: As I view it, most if not all of the process presented in that excellent article can be made (or already are) quite resistent to botting, even with exposed datastream... just like any good CAPTCHA mechanism (aka those pesky "i'm a human" challenge checks).

I've probably have an erroneous view on how the whole thing works, but lets say it work in a similar way to a captcha.

The game clients get both a visual and an audio maps (for the clues), the server knows the answer, you (as a cognitive human player) makes your experienced guesses which are recorded alongside your timing.

By the way, that's double as the record of the player skills involved in the crafting process.

Then the game client send back the info to the dedicated server module, which ponder the input recorded compared to the ideal responses.. just like a music sheet could be played differently and still be "correct".

Not everyone is a maestro but the human brain has still that wonderful capacity to recognize things that programs can't...

And that poor excuse of a cover to your favorite song is among the marvelous stuff that we have to endure... err, recognize, with all those amazing dissonances/differences you managed to put into (I can't sing for the life of me, so you can repalce that you by I, and be thankful that this post isn't an audio file).

Character skills and attributes have probably already been taken account when the two clue maps (audio and visual) where provided, so no need to delay the transmission of the resulting changes to the current crafting process and client's UI.

At that point, if you had full access to the datastream (exchanged between client and server), the "knowledge" of your results would only limited to the UI progression.

In that neran longblade case, how the shape is supposed to change, something that the player is made easily aware (just in those animated screeenshots), not a secret, but really difficult for a bot/AI to "understand" if it was even positive or not.

The difficult part for a computer is seemingly the pattern recognition, especially without discerning context and circumstances : a non-educated guess on top of it will just seal the deal.

A modern camera/smartphone can brute force every image to force a rather successful "face" recognition (just like how a part of the human brain is hard-wired for that purpose by the way)... but ask it to recognize flowers and you'll draw a blank. Similarly, I dare you to be able to decypher a QR-code "manually". To each, their own talents.

Additionnally, from what I understood from this dev journal, during that exchange, the server could still conceal or plainly hide any potential "discrepancy". Except for the more obvious naturally, like a dent on the blade in our case, an awareness depending on your character understanding in the "dao" of your craft.

Flaw or boon, that's a "bonus" result that the game (server) would "reveal" way later during another step of the smithing process or an appraisal (hence my question about that particular sub-topic).

Finally rinse and repeat those steps as long as you use that crafting station/session.

Since there is unpredictability (rather than randomness) in the captchas sent, a bot won't be effective (which as stated earlier have the most difficulty with random image recognition).

Since correcting a wrong guess will just spiral down with even more unexpected challenges and circumstaces (the natural nemesis to bot scripting), it has the best chances to simply end with blotching the whole attempt.

OFC for the win.

Especially on the cost-effective side of things, as it is presented, using OPC time (with those nifty offline ingame scripts) will really be a better idea than "botting" your online time.

Especially if you will be able to swap them with a companion app (mobile app linked to the game). By the way, is such a companion app on the dev's roadmap?

Anyway, Many possible exploits will rather probably come from that side of things (I mean OPC behavioral scripts) but since they run in "protected" environment (limited code exposition and functions, virtual process, etc.), it is far easier to monitor and control.

And don't forget that either way, there is that "time is money" principle. As anyone "uses up" their character's life (literally) spark by just being a part of the game. Our characters will mainly be botting while offline (be it for an hour or three weeks straight)... which defeat the purpose of using an external bot system while being AFK (away from keyboard).

While being offline, at least, thanks to the default OPC behavior, your character's existence will net you something : from free experience (via practice tools and dummies for instance) to the benefits of efficient schedules at your harduous job(s) (manning a crafting/processing station, harvesting a specific area or collecting speeding tickets while transporting goods).

The sin of getting AFK?

If you think about it, being AFK will become the most leisurely expensive thing to do in game!

Can't wait to do just that... just kidding : so many things to do/experiment, except for the occasional Pavlov syndrome, *I'll personally try to go "broke" with my gaming time. :) *

As for the rest, I'll customize some fail-safe OPC scripts (borrowed from the community) and "order" my character to prepare stuff for my next gaming session : leaving those tedious parts away from my fun.

Tedious parts are bond to happen with such detailled way of crafting and 10+ years of gameplay ahead of us... and you definitely need all those "lesser" components (like bolts and nails) to be made at some point.

TheUltimatus - 4 months ago
@Leonim:

The idea of a companion app to monitor OPC status and minor control is a good one.

Logain - 5 months ago
@Snipehunter:

Posted By Marovec at 10:06 PM - Wed Apr 11 2018

(...)In regards to "botting", aren't they actually encouraging you to do so (...) with the OPC system (...) to craft "easier" things.

Yes and no. I wasn't talking about an OPC, but about a bot that listens to the data-stream and then scores a next to perfect (with a bit of randomness to avoid detection) results on the skill test and the challenge, hence producing master piece products en mass and leveling up your skill at the same time. That's kind of an entire different level from having an OPC do some low level crafting.

Posted By Snipehunter at 11:22 PM - Wed Apr 11 2018

(...)It will discourage the game equivalent of script kiddies(...)

I'd say everybody who can listen to the data-stream, interpret it and send back own data knows the basics of event driven programming ;) Skript Kiddies don't create bots/software, they use it :p

Posted By Snipehunter at 11:22 PM - Wed Apr 11 2018

(...)but we didn't set out to make a bot-proof mechanic here. (...)Bots we're dealing with in other ways.

Hope that helps! :)

Yes, it does help, though I confess I'd be really curious as to how you intend to deal with bots. Since by designing the system in the way you did, you provide quite a large incentive for people to use them.

Brynath - 5 months ago
@Snipehunter:

Posted By Snipehunter at 1:22 PM - Wed Apr 11 2018

Posted By Logain at 04:58 AM - Wed Apr 11 2018

I don't understand why people think it would be anywhere near difficult to create a bot for that system? Could you elaborate your way of thought here? If anything bots excel at a system like this?

It's the way challenges work in the crafting experience, I think. The thought, I believe, is that most bots are follow a rote procedure and so couldn't react to the changing nature of crafting. You are, in essence, left with having to build an AI driven character that can play this particular game. And that might even discourage some bot-users, but building AI to play games has been a part of this line of work for longer than I've been a game designer, so I agree that it's not impossible or anything. It will discourage the game equivalent of script kiddies, but we didn't set out to make a bot-proof mechanic here. We set out to make a crafting system that supported the economic systems we're building and one that feels right. Bots we're dealing with in other ways.

Hope that helps! :)

In a way there will already be bots for the crafting system, built by SbS.

Granted they have a bit of a different access level to all the underlying things, but technically all the NPC's are just bots.

Marovec - 5 months ago
@Logain:

Posted By Logain at 07:58 AM - Wed Apr 11 2018

Posted By Nameless_Necromancer at 12:37 PM - Wed Apr 11 2018

(...)Well RIP bot makers(...)

I don't understand why people think it would be anywhere near difficult to create a bot for that system? Could you elaborate your way of thought here? If anything bots excel at a system like this?

Posted By Nameless_Necromancer at 12:37 PM - Wed Apr 11 2018

(...)OR that NPCs have to buy their weapons the same as regular players(...)

That's the idea, yes.

In regards to "botting", aren't they actually encouraging you to do so (and pointed out that it is possible) with the OPC system?

From what I understand, they fully expect you to use the OPC system to craft "easier" things.

Kaynadin - 6 months ago

Quality of components matters. Sure, as a blacksmith I am sure you could learn to create a basic handle for something. Carving out a couple of flat pieces of wood or a circle of wood with a hole in it isn't hard. But if you want high quality handles that fit well in your hand or are decorated with inlay or carvings you're going to go to a wood carver.

Takeda_Shinukage - 6 months ago

@Malais, If you wanted to be a weapon smith couldn't you just specialize in the blade aspects of blacksmithing and the hilt aspects of woodworking. I think the problem of needing different people for different components only arises when you want to be broad in your character. For example, If I wanted to be a blacksmith that makes tools, armor AND weapons then yeah, I probably would need to find a woodworker for hilts.

Malais - 6 months ago
@Takeda_Shinukage:

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 08:29 AM - Tue Apr 10 2018

@Malais, If you wanted to be a weapon smith couldn't you just specialize in the blade aspects of blacksmithing and the hilt aspects of woodworking. I think the problem of needing different people for different components only arises when you want to be broad in your character. For example, If I wanted to be a blacksmith that makes tools, armor AND weapons then yeah, I probably would need to find a woodworker for hilts.

Therein lies my question. To this point we haven’t had any real hints as to the level of detail or difficulty in crafting components for each end use item other than the blanket statement of crafters needing to collaborate. It would be nice to have at least a general idea of how Snipehunter and Co. want crafting to feel and what their backup plans to account for human interference in the system.

Snipehunter - 6 months ago
@Malais:

Posted By Malais at 06:39 AM - Tue Apr 10 2018

Therein lies my question. To this point we haven’t had any real hints as to the level of detail or difficulty in crafting components for each end use item other than the blanket statement of crafters needing to collaborate. It would be nice to have at least a general idea of how Snipehunter and Co. want crafting to feel and what their backup plans to account for human interference in the system.

The intention is to create an interdependent web of crafts, moreso than it is to force you to require other people. My take, personally, is that if you want to try your hand at being the one-man crafting-crew, more power to you. However, what you will find in the attempt is an intensity of labor.

Nothing in our systems says you can't master bladesmithing and push your woodworking and general metalworking high enough to produce good guards, blades, hilts, and pommels, for example. On the other hand, the time it takes to produce all of these, as well as the various pins, adhesives, and other fixtures means that you're going to be spending a while to produce a single sword. Just forging the blade may take a few minutes, but that's compounded in nearly equal allotments for the major elements of the weapons and all of the minor materials that are part of the process also take, collectively, a few minutes to make as well. Assuming the weapon is a challenge for you to make, we could be talking about an Elyrian day of work. Even as a master it will still probably take you 20-30 real-time minutes from scratch, factor in travel time between the various stations.

It could very well be that your product's quality and the particular properties you impart as part of your use of techniques make that effort worth it - people could very well seek out your weapons. But if you're not as well known, and the blacksmith next door can knock out a decent sword in 1/5th the time because all she has to do is forge the blade from an existing billet and assemble the pieces she picked up at the market, that quality -- and that labor -- that you invested might go to waste. You may not be competitive.

Which is actually much closer to the point. Our goals here are to support the connected economy while leaving the tactical choices of plying your trade up to you. There's a demand for everything every trade can produce, which will support a wide network of tradesfolk across a broad spectrum of skills in the pursuit of their own economic niches, but which niches you pursue and your strategy for doing so is up to you.

As for how we want it to feel? We want you to feel like you've accomplished something when you successfully craft something. Crafting isn't a side-gig every player does. That's not our goal. The system certainly supports hobby work, but you can't expect it to make you money because the game is populated by people who are "serious" - career tradesfolks who dedicate the entirety of their skill growth and available time to the endeavor. (Both NPCs and players, for that matter) Crafting a sword isn't the same as taking out a trash mob in a traditional MMO, it's bigger than that. It's more akin to a floor boss in a JRPG in terms of scale. Barring some rare exceptions, such as stepping into the young heir of a smith, you won't be forging swords on day one. Though, if you had a recipe and knew the techniques, you technically could try.

Hope that helps! :)

Dariusacmar - 5 months ago
@Snipehunter:

@Snipehunter

Posted By Snipehunter at 10:56 AM - Tue Apr 10 2018

Posted By Malais at 06:39 AM - Tue Apr 10 2018

Therein lies my question. To this point we haven’t had any real hints as to the level of detail or difficulty in crafting components for each end use item other than the blanket statement of crafters needing to collaborate. It would be nice to have at least a general idea of how Snipehunter and Co. want crafting to feel and what their backup plans to account for human interference in the system.

The intention is to create an interdependent web of crafts, moreso than it is to force you to require other people. My take, personally, is that if you want to try your hand at being the one-man crafting-crew, more power to you. However, what you will find in the attempt is an intensity of labor.

Assuming the weapon is a challenge for you to make, we could be talking about an Elyrian day of work. Even as a master it will still probably take you 20-30 real-time minutes from scratch, factor in travel time between the various stations.

As for how we want it to feel? We want you to feel like you've accomplished something when you successfully craft something. Crafting isn't a side-gig every player does. That's not our goal. The system certainly supports hobby work, but you can't expect it to make you money because the game is populated by people who are "serious" - career tradesfolks who dedicate the entirety of their skill growth and available time to the endeavor. (Both NPCs and players, for that matter) Crafting a sword isn't the same as taking out a trash mob in a traditional MMO, it's bigger than that. It's more akin to a floor boss in a JRPG in terms of scale.

Hope that helps! :)

Wow...I really hope it doesn't take 20-30 minutes combined..I was really really hoping for 20-30 minutes per component, totaling 2-3 hours per blade. I mean, a decent blade made back in the medieval times would take half of a day to a day to make...and that was after they'd gone through the bronze age and more...so if we're starting in the bronze age, please oh please at least make the time worthwhile to accomplish it...because at 20-30 minutes total to make sword...it certainly won't feel like accomplishment, but rather some mass production like I can just spit out one after another, exactly like other mmos...just a little more time involved.

Pteroguin - 5 months ago
@Dariusacmar:

Posted By Dariusacmar at 08:32 AM - Mon Apr 16 2018 [...deleted Snipe's original quote to save space...]

Wow...I really hope it doesn't take 20-30 minutes combined..I was really really hoping for 20-30 minutes per component, totaling 2-3 hours per blade. I mean, a decent blade made back in the medieval times would take half of a day to a day to make...and that was after they'd gone through the bronze age and more...so if we're starting in the bronze age, please oh please at least make the time worthwhile to accomplish it...because at 20-30 minutes total to make sword...it certainly won't feel like accomplishment, but rather some mass production like I can just spit out one after another, exactly like other mmos...just a little more time involved.

I also feel that the 20-30 minute window might be a little light for a completed sword. I was looking at 60-75 minutes personally as the sweet spot. This number represents multiple roles doing multiple things at the same time and blade creation and sword completion done by the blacksmith. This is just from first glance, and from understanding. I want items to take time because over-flooding of markets might occur otherwise which could lead to some serious economic/commercial woes. That being said we don't know the rate of decay, wear, and other things that might offset this.

@Snipehunter Things I'd like to know...

  • Confirmation of time needed to craft items - Echo of above poster's question (knowing that this is of course all possible to change)

  • How long will an item last if it's properly maintained, but never used?

  • How fast will weapon use diminish an item, in optimal conditions (not accounting for out of biome material, or things of that nature)

  • Do you feel that producers will switch to different items if the market self floods, if techniques and patterns rely on previous work with the same type of item?

Ersatz - 5 months ago
@Dariusacmar:

Posted By Dariusacmar at 12:32 PM - Mon Apr 16 2018

@Snipehunter

Posted By Snipehunter at 10:56 AM - Tue Apr 10 2018

Posted By Malais at 06:39 AM - Tue Apr 10 2018

Therein lies my question. To this point we haven’t had any real hints as to the level of detail or difficulty in crafting components for each end use item other than the blanket statement of crafters needing to collaborate. It would be nice to have at least a general idea of how Snipehunter and Co. want crafting to feel and what their backup plans to account for human interference in the system.

The intention is to create an interdependent web of crafts, moreso than it is to force you to require other people. My take, personally, is that if you want to try your hand at being the one-man crafting-crew, more power to you. However, what you will find in the attempt is an intensity of labor.

Assuming the weapon is a challenge for you to make, we could be talking about an Elyrian day of work. Even as a master it will still probably take you 20-30 real-time minutes from scratch, factor in travel time between the various stations.

As for how we want it to feel? We want you to feel like you've accomplished something when you successfully craft something. Crafting isn't a side-gig every player does. That's not our goal. The system certainly supports hobby work, but you can't expect it to make you money because the game is populated by people who are "serious" - career tradesfolks who dedicate the entirety of their skill growth and available time to the endeavor. (Both NPCs and players, for that matter) Crafting a sword isn't the same as taking out a trash mob in a traditional MMO, it's bigger than that. It's more akin to a floor boss in a JRPG in terms of scale.

Hope that helps! :)

Wow...I really hope it doesn't take 20-30 minutes combined..I was really really hoping for 20-30 minutes per component, totaling 2-3 hours per blade. I mean, a decent blade made back in the medieval times would take half of a day to a day to make...and that was after they'd gone through the bronze age and more...so if we're starting in the bronze age, please oh please at least make the time worthwhile to accomplish it...because at 20-30 minutes total to make sword...it certainly won't feel like accomplishment, but rather some mass production like I can just spit out one after another, exactly like other mmos...just a little more time involved.

Keep in mind that 30 minutes is several hours of in-game time.

Malais - 6 months ago

@Snipehunter good point about the world already existing prior to players even arriving on the scene. From a top down perspective I don’t think there will be a lack of crafters making the end use product ie completed armor or arms. Players who want to craft will always vie for the top spot as best even if that is just best in their local region.

However... my concern is more about the lower tier crafters. We know that everything being made is made of “parts” and a single crafter isn’t likely to be able to produce all the pieces needed to craft an end use item.

Chronicles of Elyria utilizes a component-based crafting model that both encourages collaboration and also allows Producers to specialize in the types of objects they want to create.

Swords, for example, are made up of several more basic components. In this case, crafting a sword requires a blade and a hilt, the latter being made up of a handle, a cross-guard, and a pommel. The handle again being made up of a wooden handle and some kind of binding.

If I’m a crafter why would I be happy being a component crafter? As in making the wooden handle for the sword above the metal focused blacksmith may not have the skill to make?

I know the basic answer would be NPCs would fill the niche but a new player wants to be a crafter and via the new player interface ends up “inhabiting” the local component maker. Without a competent link in the local supply chain the end producers may not be able to produce or have access to all the parts needed.

In short how will the system compensate for a region or perhaps an entire kingdom in which there are thousands of swordsmiths but no one who can make hilts? My MMO sense tells me cross skills would be the answer. Perhaps a woodworker who specializes in bows could use their skill to make a wooden hilt for the local blacksmith. Is the system really as interconnected as to allow 3-4 end use crafters to be able to trade lower tier components between them allowing for each to have access to the raw components they each need?

Snipehunter - 5 months ago
@Malais:

Posted By Malais at 06:15 AM - Tue Apr 10 2018

In short how will the system compensate for a region or perhaps an entire kingdom in which there are thousands of swordsmiths but no one who can make hilts? My MMO sense tells me cross skills would be the answer. Perhaps a woodworker who specializes in bows could use their skill to make a wooden hilt for the local blacksmith. Is the system really as interconnected as to allow 3-4 end use crafters to be able to trade lower tier components between them allowing for each to have access to the raw components they each need?

That is absolutely the intent. Most handles, for example, aren't made of metal. They're leather, or wood, or some mixture of the two. A leatherworker making, for example, belts still needs metal fixtures (rivets, buckles, etc.) from a metal worker. A fletcher needs metal arrowheads, and so on. Of course, making those components usually isn't the be all end all of the related skillset, so it's also possible to learn how to do them yourself, but that will take time and effort, so it becomes a strategic choice as much as it is a requirement of the end product.

Hope that helps! :)

LissyJane - 6 months ago

So exciting. Still can't decide between being a dressmaker or apothecary, I guess I'll decide based on how easy product sourcing is once I get in game!

Ravenlute - 6 months ago

This sounds a lot like how crafting works in Wurm Online. You get the raw mats, you refine them, make them into parts, and use those parts to create a finished product. This can take a lot of time and effort but people have built some amazing things in that game.

Whiteslag - 6 months ago

I wonder how bent shaped tools would be made in this system, like Horse Shoes?

Do I have to hammer the edge that isn't over the anvil?

TheUltimatus - 4 months ago
@Whiteslag:

Typically anvils will have one flat and one rounded component (the horn and shoulder). These are realistically part of the process for creating curved pieces, but who knows if it will be in the game.

Nahkahiiri - 6 months ago

Looks promising and something the industry have been lacking for sure! Trying to keep myself realistic though.

@Snipehunter - how many different crafting experiences are we expecting to have?

I'm asking this because I'm worried about SBS having enough resources to make this in reality. There is tons and tons of work to be done in everything and then they are planning to make this detailed crafting experiences for each crafting profession. Some of the code can be reused, but there is still a mountain to climb. The more I think about the situation, the more I'm feeling that SBS is trying to make a promising demo so they can attract a publisher to pay the rest of the development. I hope I'm wrong. Hmm... maybe I don't hope as long as we get COE out and it has the designed features as they are designed.

Andrew0414 - 6 months ago

I am very happy that they decided to go this route. I had mentioned something quite similar to this last year regarding the crafting system. So to me this is the best thing that could happen to the crafting system and I look forward to learning more about it.

Rojinn - 6 months ago

If I am reading this right, I feel the Devs are creating a game in which a “crafter”, a tradesman, is a core playing style. It is the goal of your character for that lifetime. A warrior, or an adventurer, even a King, will not make a good craftsman. The blacksmith is going to be a blacksmith. His adventure may be to take his famed battleaxes to the capital for sale. Or introduce a new weapon at the jousting tournaments. A rancher will be breeding horses, etc. This for me is very exciting. It is very unlike all the other MMOs where the level 6000 paladin is also a master in jewel crafting. This gives CoE a level of immersion that I have really hoped for. I hope that the DEVs don’t give in to people pining for the days of WOW vanilla and simply want a redux of that game. Just my thoughts.

HajimeSaito - 6 months ago
@Rojinn:

Posted By Rojinn at 01:31 AM - Mon Apr 09 2018

If I am reading this right, I feel the Devs are creating a game in which a “crafter”, a tradesman, is a core playing style. It is the goal of your character for that lifetime. A warrior, or an adventurer, even a King, will not make a good craftsman. The blacksmith is going to be a blacksmith. His adventure may be to take his famed battleaxes to the capital for sale. Or introduce a new weapon at the jousting tournaments. A rancher will be breeding horses, etc. This for me is very exciting. It is very unlike all the other MMOs where the level 6000 paladin is also a master in jewel crafting. This gives CoE a level of immersion that I have really hoped for. I hope that the DEVs don’t give in to people pining for the days of WOW vanilla and simply want a redux of that game. Just my thoughts.

I think this is by far best answer and explanation. Professions are not secondary to a class used to just fill in extra time, the profession IS your character.

Good work

AceSilverFanng - 6 months ago

This is really nice and I like how in depth crafting now is.

I just wonder now that with crafting being so intensive on skills, how do skills work for those of us who go out to explore the world and use non-crafting skills? Will we have skill checks too? Do map making and investigation skills work in a similar vein as crafting skills? I'm assuming that combat skills will also be far more complicated than "I swing my weapon when I want". Possibly gaining access to new moves in combat as we level?

Sorry to go of topic in this comment. You've just got me all hyped for skills now! :D

Tenchikun - 6 months ago

The crafting system seems so damn complicated that it's actually giving me a headache. I really want to be a crafter in this game but there are other things that I want to do as well and with how complicated crafting is I fear I won't have the time or energy to even attempt to do anything else in this game.

Fenrer - 6 months ago

Most of us will start in relative comfort being teens in a npc family. If your mother or father does not have a profession you are interested in there is always schools and teachers, after that some can even loan you founds to set up shop if there is a demand for your items.

You wont feel as helpless as in other games as you can inherit your parents wealth, use family home and items, you got food and clothes..

Tenchikun - 6 months ago

I'm looking at this game not only long term but in terms of what it will be like early on and later after the game has been released for a few months and someone is just starting as a new player. The person new to the game will have just as difficult of a time as someone who has been playing it for a few months.

Here is a scenario. I just start playing at release. I want to be a crafter and in order to start crafting I need resources. 1. I can go get those resources myself or 2. give someone a quest to get those resources for me. Obviously i'm going to choose option #1 because I have nothing to give in return as i'm a new player i have nothing to give in return for this mining quest that i'd be giving out. The same situation will occur for the person who starts months after the game releases. But this seems like it's going to be very time consuming for anyone early on because if they choose to have someone get those resources for them it's going to be difficult without npc quest givers to help the player progress early and develop their skills early on. For one you'll probably need a pickaxe or some tool to actually start mining. That item will likely need to be crafted unless there is some npc vendor in which to purchase this beginner item.

Many of you may not remember Asheron's Call 2. They started their game live with a similar situation with next to zero NPC vendors or quest givers. It was an extreme detriment to the game to not have a way to progress at a steady pace. They had a vision of a game which relied heavily on player crafted items and not npc's. Again a huge detriment to the livability of the game. I am truly fearing the same may occur with CoE. How things will turn out without a clear visual understanding of what this game will be like in terms of quests, npcs, ect is hard to envision and predict. Perhaps their vision was just wrong for that era and is right for todays modern gameplay.

This is why we need videos explaining how things will work and not just a dev's journal of how they envision it. We've already seen the path of how crafting will work completely revamped. Regardless of how crude it looks in the video i'm sure people will understand that this is still early development.

Stoutheart - 5 months ago
@Tenchikun:

Posted By Tenchikun at 12:29 AM - Sun Apr 08 2018

Here is a scenario. I just start playing at release. I want to be a crafter and in order to start crafting I need resources. 1. I can go get those resources myself or 2. give someone a quest to get those resources for me. Obviously i'm going to choose option #1 because I have nothing to give in return as i'm a new player i have nothing to give in return for this mining quest that i'd be giving out. The same situation will occur for the person who starts months after the game releases.

How about option #3, you find a trade master in your trade-skill and start an apprenticeship. He or she may give you room and board, pay a wage and you complete quests he assigns that increase your trade skill in your chosen field. I personally intend to have at least a couple of apprentices working for me if I can find them. I get work done and they get experience in a trade.

Snipehunter - 6 months ago
@Tenchikun:

Posted By Tenchikun at 9:29 PM - Sat Apr 07 2018

Many of you may not remember Asheron's Call 2. They started their game live with a similar situation with next to zero NPC vendors or quest givers. It was an extreme detriment to the game to not have a way to progress at a steady pace. They had a vision of a game which relied heavily on player crafted items and not npc's. Again a huge detriment to the livability of the game. I am truly fearing the same may occur with CoE. How things will turn out without a clear visual understanding of what this game will be like in terms of quests, npcs, ect is hard to envision and predict. Perhaps their vision was just wrong for that era and is right for todays modern gameplay.

A very large difference here, that I think is often overlooked, is that we're not excluding NPCs in our planning. Players will enter a world that already have a functional economy, with tasks awaiting completion, niches to fill, and opportunities to exploit. But, if for whatever reason players should elect not to take those opportunities, NPCs in the world will eventually do so.

Likewise, NPCs aren't capped at some level of development in comparison to players. It's true that players will, in general, produce better work, but that's about player skill, not about any artificial constraints of the system. This means that a master smith NPC will produce great quality work, even if he won't rival a player of similar skill at the same levels. That means that every area, regardless of player crafting participation, will have an avenue to supply needed materials to players, but it doesn't rule out the need to travel far and wide to find the "best."

And, let's talk about "Best" - in most MMOs, "best" for a particular class of character is a singular weapon or gear set, but in the real world it doesn't really play out that way. We each have our own strategies, our own preferences, that influence what we look at as "Best." A MEOW is similar for a number of reasons: You pick your approach to craft, combat, politics, and adventure. You decide what styles to fight with, what crafts to pursue, and how to pursue mastery of those crafts and combat styles. This means "best" for you can be markedly different from "best" for me.

This is further compounded by regionality: "best" for you might be entirely different from "best" for me because we come from different places with different resources and, thus, different crafters and skill sets. A To'resk may not want neran platemail, they may instead prefer the home-made composite because it's lighter, less likely to be stifling in the heat, but offers similar levels of protection even if it requires more upkeep. That extra upkeep might be a non-factor, depending on the To'resk, since they might not have access to the materials necessary to upkeep and repair steel platemail but do have the leathers, paper, and lacquer necessary to repair To'resk armor, not to mention access to a community of folks that know the secrets of To'resk composite armor.

So, all of this works together to create regional demand for skills and items centered around what the region can support, both from a materials and skillset standpoint. Both of which, materials and skillset, are covered by NPCs even if players never get involved. The result should be a world where "flavor of the week," when it exists, exists in specific areas rather than globally, and waxes and wanes as access to materials and skillset change in a region.

Unless you all go murder all the NPCs, players should never enter a world where the problem you're considering with that callback to AC2 can't really exist.

Hope that helps! :)

Roarer - 6 months ago
@Tenchikun:

Posted By Tenchikun at 12:29 PM - Sun Apr 08 2018

I'm looking at this game not only long term but in terms of what it will be like early on and later after the game has been released for a few months and someone is just starting as a new player. The person new to the game will have just as difficult of a time as someone who has been playing it for a few months.

Here is a scenario. I just start playing at release. I want to be a crafter and in order to start crafting I need resources. 1. I can go get those resources myself or 2. give someone a quest to get those resources for me. Obviously i'm going to choose option #1 because I have nothing to give in return as i'm a new player i have nothing to give in return for this mining quest that i'd be giving out. The same situation will occur for the person who starts months after the game releases. But this seems like it's going to be very time consuming for anyone early on because if they choose to have someone get those resources for them it's going to be difficult without npc quest givers to help the player progress early and develop their skills early on. For one you'll probably need a pickaxe or some tool to actually start mining. That item will likely need to be crafted unless there is some npc vendor in which to purchase this beginner item.

Many of you may not remember Asheron's Call 2. They started their game live with a similar situation with next to zero NPC vendors or quest givers. It was an extreme detriment to the game to not have a way to progress at a steady pace. They had a vision of a game which relied heavily on player crafted items and not npc's. Again a huge detriment to the livability of the game. I am truly fearing the same may occur with CoE. How things will turn out without a clear visual understanding of what this game will be like in terms of quests, npcs, ect is hard to envision and predict. Perhaps their vision was just wrong for that era and is right for todays modern gameplay.

This is why we need videos explaining how things will work and not just a dev's journal of how they envision it. We've already seen the path of how crafting will work completely revamped. Regardless of how crude it looks in the video i'm sure people will understand that this is still early development.

For the beginning of the game, that is the least my worry. As long as you are not an orphan, you got a family which will provide you the most basic stuff to start with. Depending on the professions of your parents, you will have means to earn a living.

SBS is also determined to have the game world set up and running with exposition and NPCs.

Poldano - 6 months ago
@Tenchikun:

Posted By Tenchikun at 9:29 PM - Sat Apr 07 2018

I'm looking at this game not only long term but in terms of what it will be like early on and later after the game has been released for a few months and someone is just starting as a new player. The person new to the game will have just as difficult of a time as someone who has been playing it for a few months.

Here is a scenario. I just start playing at release. I want to be a crafter and in order to start crafting I need resources. 1. I can go get those resources myself or 2. give someone a quest to get those resources for me. Obviously i'm going to choose option #1 because I have nothing to give in return as i'm a new player i have nothing to give in return for this mining quest that i'd be giving out. The same situation will occur for the person who starts months after the game releases. But this seems like it's going to be very time consuming for anyone early on because if they choose to have someone get those resources for them it's going to be difficult without npc quest givers to help the player progress early and develop their skills early on. For one you'll probably need a pickaxe or some tool to actually start mining. That item will likely need to be crafted unless there is some npc vendor in which to purchase this beginner item.

Many of you may not remember Asheron's Call 2. They started their game live with a similar situation with next to zero NPC vendors or quest givers. It was an extreme detriment to the game to not have a way to progress at a steady pace. They had a vision of a game which relied heavily on player crafted items and not npc's. Again a huge detriment to the livability of the game. I am truly fearing the same may occur with CoE. How things will turn out without a clear visual understanding of what this game will be like in terms of quests, npcs, ect is hard to envision and predict. Perhaps their vision was just wrong for that era and is right for todays modern gameplay.

This is why we need videos explaining how things will work and not just a dev's journal of how they envision it. We've already seen the path of how crafting will work completely revamped. Regardless of how crude it looks in the video i'm sure people will understand that this is still early development.

I believe it is the designers' intent to have an NPC economy in place prior to exposition, and for players to develop that economy further in exposition. That means that as a new character, you will be able to apprentice to an experienced artisan, possibly an NPC, to get some money and learn some skills. As an apprentice, your master will pay you and perhaps look after some of your needs materially. As you advance in skill, you will be able to make some things that are actually useful. That should start off a progression in income. Eventually, if you are in business for yourself or a journeyman with some discretionary income, you can contract with others for raw materials that they specialize in providing. This may be journeymen contracting with other journeymen, but it should work if they are sufficiently skilled.

Tenchikun - 6 months ago

This sounds already to be too complicated of a system. From a perspective of someone who is an avid crafter in every rpg I play and someone who has a degree in game design I feel like this is all being hyped up far too much. I believe that people will tire quickly of a hyper realistic/complicated crafting system. I like that there is quite a bit of realism and innovation being added to this game to make it "revolutionary" but if you look at the history of games that tried to be revolutionary in every aspect of their game design they failed miserably from launch. They hype overwhelmed fans before the game actually released and when they finally got to playing that hype quickly faded and players got annoyed by how difficult it was to actually progress. Not many players are going to enjoy endless hours of gameplay making minuscule progress just so they can have bragging rights to being the best crafter. This kind of system means that only the best of the best who actually put in the time will be the crafter of choice people flock to for their armor and weapons. Which in turn puts a huge amount of stress on the crafter themselves and the economy of the game where supply and demand will play a huge role in who actually gets the best items available. Unless there is a way from someone to actively and efficiently gather these resources themselves and craft items rather than relying on someone else for materials then this will slow down the progress any one person can make in any given role they choose to become a master at. Which in turn means spending a ridiculous amount of time just to achieve a single goal, ie become the best crafter. And from the sound of things this means real time effort. It seems too early to speculate which is going to be quicker, games that have a research timer for crafting skills or a real time hands on experience system like CoE is proposing.
Just reading through the description it seems like a long drawn out process just to smelt a single fricken piece of ore which entails waiting till its hot enough and in the hottest part of the coals and feels like a spongy state which sounds stupid in a sense since i can't actually physically feel its spongyness. And yet this long process sounds like i've just spent several minutes smelting a single piece of ore and I still have yet to do all the other steps to make the parts that will complete a sword. I'm feeling like i'm going to spend 10-15 minutes just making a sword. Even spending 3 minutes making a single item seems like an extreme time sink. It would be extremely helpful for the community to have a video showing the actual crafting process. Visually we need to see how long a single crafting of an item will look like. Starting preferable with the most difficult items and how this process determines the style in which it will look like. One thing you can be sure of is people will want items to look a certain way and I have yet to see how you'll determine what something will look like. No one wants to run around with ugly crude looking armor or clothing no matter how good the stats are.

HajimeSaito - 6 months ago
@Tenchikun:

Posted By Tenchikun at 08:18 AM - Sun Apr 08 2018

This sounds already to be too complicated of a system. From a perspective of someone who is an avid crafter in every rpg I play and someone who has a degree in game design I feel like this is all being hyped up far too much. I believe that people will tire quickly of a hyper realistic/complicated crafting system. I like that there is quite a bit of realism and innovation being added to this game to make it "revolutionary" but if you look at the history of games that tried to be revolutionary in every aspect of their game design they failed miserably from launch. They hype overwhelmed fans before the game actually released and when they finally got to playing that hype quickly faded and players got annoyed by how difficult it was to actually progress. Not many players are going to enjoy endless hours of gameplay making minuscule progress just so they can have bragging rights to being the best crafter. This kind of system means that only the best of the best who actually put in the time will be the crafter of choice people flock to for their armor and weapons. Which in turn puts a huge amount of stress on the crafter themselves and the economy of the game where supply and demand will play a huge role in who actually gets the best items available. Unless there is a way from someone to actively and efficiently gather these resources themselves and craft items rather than relying on someone else for materials then this will slow down the progress any one person can make in any given role they choose to become a master at. Which in turn means spending a ridiculous amount of time just to achieve a single goal, ie become the best crafter. And from the sound of things this means real time effort. It seems too early to speculate which is going to be quicker, games that have a research timer for crafting skills or a real time hands on experience system like CoE is proposing.
Just reading through the description it seems like a long drawn out process just to smelt a single fricken piece of ore which entails waiting till its hot enough and in the hottest part of the coals and feels like a spongy state which sounds stupid in a sense since i can't actually physically feel its spongyness. And yet this long process sounds like i've just spent several minutes smelting a single piece of ore and I still have yet to do all the other steps to make the parts that will complete a sword. I'm feeling like i'm going to spend 10-15 minutes just making a sword. Even spending 3 minutes making a single item seems like an extreme time sink. It would be extremely helpful for the community to have a video showing the actual crafting process. Visually we need to see how long a single crafting of an item will look like. Starting preferable with the most difficult items and how this process determines the style in which it will look like. One thing you can be sure of is people will want items to look a certain way and I have yet to see how you'll determine what something will look like. No one wants to run around with ugly crude looking armor or clothing no matter how good the stats are.

I don't think you are looking at the big picture. Yes there will definitely be people who outright hate this crafting system, especially those people who like and simply want this game to be your average cookie cutter MMO and don't wish to put in any effort, simply getting everything handed to them with ease.

I believe you are thinking about this crafting system, not in terms of how it will work in CoE, but comparing this crafting system as if it was implemented in your typical cookie cutter MMO. If this was the case, then sure, it will fail miserably!

Think for a second however, what it will be like if, rather than being FORCED to churn out 30 daggers, or 15 great axes, simply to get enough cash/bartered items, whatever, to either pay your taxes, or in turn pay for or barter for an item that you desire (your typical MMO), what if due to supply and demand, the fact that, as you have said, not everyone will want to put in this effort, either a single sword or maybe just 2 or 3 was enough to do that, because, there is NOT the supply that there is in other MMO's, so those items you have crafted become genuinely valuable in game.... Not simply something anyone can craft or pick up at the vendor?

what this means is that the items you craft actually have a real purpose and real value in game, not just something you churn out ad nauseum just to level a skill and ultimately dump on the nearest vendor because they are worthless and no one wants them!

So, unlike other MMO's where you are essentially only crafting items, to level a skill in an attempt to reach those elusive end game items and are just going through the motions with little regard or desire for the early crafted gear, in this game, I believe this crafting system will make even the earlier items a valuable commodity, which will facilitate a robust economy.

Yes, not everyone is going to like it, but that will be the case for as long as people continue to approach this game with the desire for, to play this game like and as though it is just another cookie cutter MMO!!

Abandon your assumptions and preconceived ideas based on the past and you will see and appreciate this for what it truly is!!!

Angelicus - 6 months ago

Sounds nice, i just hope that my lack of blacksmithing knowladge will put me behind people who has similar thing as hobby/intereset/work. That would kill the mood for me. I play games to be able to do stuff that i cant in real life, and dont want to be pushed back or not be able to be "good" without studing blacksmithing in real life :P

TheUltimatus - 4 months ago
@Angelicus:

Not that you will need to, but this could be a good incentive to learn more about things in the real world you may also find interesting.

Higuy333 - 6 months ago

This sounds like a cool idea, but is that all it is right now? An idea? Or is all the stuff talked about already in development?

Snipehunter - 6 months ago
@Higuy333:

Posted By Higuy333 at 01:33 AM - Sat Apr 07 2018

This sounds like a cool idea, but is that all it is right now? An idea? Or is all the stuff talked about already in development?

This is all in development. The gifs you see in the journal there were taken from a video we captured of our blacksmithing testbed, in game.

hope that helps! :)

DayriElle - 6 months ago

Ho-lee-fack! This is completely AMAZING!!! The level of detail is enormous, I got tired of just reading all that!

" Instead, you interact with the rock wall containing the vein of ore with your trusty pick-axe equipped and get to breaking rock to prize that ore out of the rock for your use. Picking herbs involves interacting with the plant, grasping the herb at the appropriate places and cutting or pulling to free your bounty from the dirt or the rest of the plant."

Can we please please please please get more information on this? A GIF at least? :D

Keep up the good work!

Donovan_De_Carrefour - 6 months ago

The system you are describing is what so many people have waited for. Not the grinding horror of other games crafting systems. This allows players to learn along with the characters. Learning a craft is no longer simply a horrible matter of grinding materials and pushing a button to level a skill. Now you can start with basic patterns and progress to creating patterns for your own style of weapon. This can go on a lifetime and be passed along to your children to pick up.

Weapons and armor, horses, special gear are just a few. Homes, furniture ,fortifications, musical instruments another. Raising crop, livestock, hunting, gathering are another. Healing, alchemy, food preparation and our beloved brewing.

Skills now are not stand alone but a working web of related skills and usefulness. You and your family will have lifetimes to work on growing and expanding.

Thank you for this wonderful and needed addition to the world we will live in.

Ibenholt - 6 months ago

Quite a mouthful.

So finally I got the time to sit down and read this long and well written design journal. Correction; having google translate do the job for this lazy brat.

All in all thoughts. Well, I sure do hope that you guys will manage to make every craft as immersive as you have described the blacksmithing and on top of that, this crafting will truly be something new in an online game. No more click click and greatsword, now you truly have to work for it. Start watching Forged in Fire or some of all those Youtube blacksmiths.

Rheika - 6 months ago

Quite detailed. Essentially a blacksmith simulator; Talk about requiring specialization from players. For a blacksmith, this IS the game!

Feyreisa - 6 months ago

Very impressive system guys! Can't wait to see it played out!

ImbuedGreen - 6 months ago

As a follow up to my earlier post...

Is "taste" a mechanic? Perhaps related to the Sensory-Map? Does the euphoric taste of excellent food provide benefits, or are the benefits of food limited to literal nutrition?

How would you go about creating the "best" cookie objectively, or food in general, when considering there are different food recipes/techniques? Or IS it subjective?

Sort of spitballing here, but perhaps characters are born with specific predispositions... preferences for certain types of food (i.e. salty, sweet, etc. or maybe more complicated qualifiers), and just as people in real life must try different foods to determine if it subjectively tastes good, perhaps it takes time for characters to hone in on their taste buds. I am not sure exactly how that would work, just a thought, though I personally wouldn't want it to be a literal game of trial and error, like how most RPGs do Alchemy.. Ultimately, in regards to crafting, perhaps taste/smell would more just serve as an indicator as to whether food is bad/spoiled/uncooked/etc.

Cheezer - 6 months ago

Friggin awesome, looking forward to everything you post

OrodNaur - 6 months ago

It's a dream come true indeed. OnE concern many of us have though is how much of these amazing, shining, my-life-is-now-complete features are actually viable given you are all still human and need to sleep and eat. I mean, it is a lot of work. Honestly work that I wouldn't mind waiting however much it takes to be completed. So I'm not going to question the hability of SB to deliver this crafting system. Instead I would be very much interested in knowing:

@Snipehunter, Which crafting systems are planned for launch and with which variety of complexity ?

Together with all the good stuff we know about tribes, this could help me understand what kind of characters I can realistically play.

Regardless, very good job with the text. I had to catch my breath a few times just imagining the time and effort it took you to write this post and appreciate how hard it can be! Kudos

optimizer2 - 6 months ago

I see a lot of people mentioning lack of time as something that might be prohibitive to their crafting.

Using the sword example, Id imagine that you could very well stop at any point in this process where the metal is cold. So after refining, or adding the carbon, when youre ready to quench, before assembly, and probably even in the middle of forging the shape of the blade.

It would make sense that if you can have steel bars laying about ready for forging, you could stop at that stage, and it would make sense you dont need to harden the blade right after youve finished the shape. You really cant have anything go wrong to your progress if its idle. Now, you probably should avoid stopping mid heating, as the steel left in the forge would burn.

I would bet that you could stop between stages in most crafts. Maybe not cooking, but anything thats not going to spoil if left out should be able to be put on pause.

Gunghoe - 6 months ago
@optimizer2:

Posted By optimizer2 at 11:06 PM - Thu Apr 05 2018

I see a lot of people mentioning lack of time as something that might be prohibitive to their crafting.

Using the sword example, Id imagine that you could very well stop at any point in this process where the metal is cold. So after refining, or adding the carbon, when youre ready to quench, before assembly, and probably even in the middle of forging the shape of the blade.

It would make sense that if you can have steel bars laying about ready for forging, you could stop at that stage, and it would make sense you dont need to harden the blade right after youve finished the shape. You really cant have anything go wrong to your progress if its idle. Now, you probably should avoid stopping mid heating, as the steel left in the forge would burn.

I would bet that you could stop between stages in most crafts. Maybe not cooking, but anything thats not going to spoil if left out should be able to be put on pause.

We have OPCs and we have the ability to craft ourselves. If you don't like the quality your OPC does, the only option is to do it yourself. However, If time being limited is on them, we need our things to be valuable in the game. We don't want people to be able to refit every time they get into a scuffle and screw up. Losing your gear in this game needs to mean something than well, replaced in 3 minutes at the market.

Talakrin - 6 months ago
@Gunghoe:

"Losing your gear in this game needs to mean something than well, replaced in 3 minutes at the market."

Ah, but to a wealthy player, it can be as easy as 3 minutes in the market. But, to replace good gear... great gear... absolutely amazing most finest gear ever, will cost quite differently also, based on the amount of time the item took to make and what materials, eh? Sounds like real life to me. Great-Value brand or a name-blacksmith brand.

TheUltimatus - 4 months ago
@Talakrin:

Looking at everything required, there will be serious commitments to be made in re-outfitting yourself with a weapon. After you spirit walk (if you have to) you have to go back to a town (weaponless and maybe mountless) you have to get money from your house (assuming it's in that town) then actually buy a weapon. Probably inconsequential for the average champion or explorer.

SolaceOfShadow - 6 months ago

This. This is what we all wanted. This is what crafting needed.

So much better than a simple mini game.

Love the details!

Will everything be craftable? Will craft stations be craftible? Will better crafting tools and stations effect the quality of the work.

TheUltimatus - 4 months ago
@SolaceOfShadow:

I wonder if crafting stations will degrade and if they will need to be repaired too!

optimizer2 - 6 months ago

actual content is always better than loading bars, regardless of what the content is.

That said: this looks so damn good, as a pvp oriented player i find this something to look forward to actually doing. I will actually craft in this game, and I will probably have a damn good time doing it. Same cant be said for countless other games where the only fun i get out of crafting (not much evolved from the likes of 2D Runescape crafting) is i get to use my result to kill something (or someone) with it.

Rojinn - 6 months ago

Awesome stuff! “Crafting is a game itself”, this is exactly what I have been hoping for. When I originally saw the minigame info, I thought, “Well at least it’s not ‘”make twenty silver necklaces” to reach 423’. This is gonna be so fun!!! I can just see my little blacksmith living out his little life, enjoying some good wine, going to the pub, betting on jousting tournaments, and growing old. He never leaves his little village, then, in death, he will leave gold to his grandson, who will be the greatest warrior the land has known, and hero to the king. “This level of detail and attention is necessary to create the evolving world of Elyria.” This is what bothers me. I just don’t see how all this detail can happen unless we can borrow NASA super computers or buy an ASUS G40,000 gaming computer. I hope that “they” can make this game that will run on our machines. I’m not obsolete, but I don’t have three monitors mounted on my wall, connected to the NORAD mainframe either. Awesome update!!! Love you guys! CAN’T WAIT!

Klorinth - 6 months ago

I am loving this. So many of my fears are dissolving away. I have been very worried about farming and breeding do to the complexity and limited knowledge that the average person has about these. But given what I have now seen in this thread I have great hope that SBS can actually do it right.

Thank you

DFDelta - 6 months ago

Will materials permitted in a recipe be limited to "sane" choices, or could you in theory use any material of the correct type?

So in the sword blade example, would a smith be limited to using typical weapon metals like iron, steel, bronze and maybe brass, or could you also use something unusual like rose gold, electrum or black bronze to create functionally useless but very pretty ornamental swords?

Nathecat - 6 months ago

This is how crafting should be. Nice job!

Thecutepig - 6 months ago

Will we be able to make different types of furnaces? will we be able to bake the coal into coke so that the heat will be more intense and make more types of metals in a smelting furnace? Will we be able to get the impure materials from say steel and make it into a nice road? so many questions i want answered XD. for wolfram, will we be able to make tungsteel from processing wolfram into tungsten then smelting with silicon(glass)?

Greatcloak - 6 months ago

Amazing, if potentially a bit daunting. Curious about some of the logistics between the player vs character skill levels though.

What is the effect of character skill in regards to crafting challenges? Only unlock higher techniques and output? Eliminate some skill tests, like the mentioned ash buildup cooling the coals? Will it also have effects like opening up hit boxes, extending error margins on timing or heat placement, ect? If the latter, how will that be assessed, in not tunnelling results towards past creations, as opposed to intentional pushing of boundaries such as trying for too hot for different metal properties? In different circumstances, an expert might want shorter time frames for speed production, or broader times for more controlled experimentation.

naturalnuke - 6 months ago

Hopefully I only poison a few people before I get my potions right.

  • Herbs and Alchemy Guy
Sport - 6 months ago

More excited every single day!

Dariusacmar - 6 months ago

@GTOX On many occasions, SBS has pointed out that survival, adventuring and combat will be highly dangerous and difficult, above the norm of most MMO's imo. That being said, up till now, most of us crafters were worried that crafting would be too easy or simplistic and/or not complex enough to have the benefits to be worth doing compared to said survival/adventuring/combat.

This DJ had relieved a lot of my concerns about that and I absolutely love that they have raised crafting to a relatively equal bar, making them worth doing.

Yes, crafting will be very hard, which I am sooo excited about, as challenge creates a worth all it's own. I honestly wouldn't worry that there will be too many people going over to the adventuring/body guard side because crafting will be difficult...as I pointed out earlier, SBS has shown through many DJ's and Q&A's....adventuring and combat will be complex and highly difficult/dangerous.

gtox - 6 months ago
@Dariusacmar:

Hi Darius,

I was just using "Adventuring" as an example. I really meant "Whatever is the highest value-versus-effort activity to do".

Don't get me wrong; my concern was more abstract in thinking of how some of these features might affect the population as a whole, not my own personal feelings. Personally, I love highly challenging (or hardcore) features; especially ones that end with a worthwhile reward. I will be crafting regardless of the comparison to other activities.

I just wanted to bring up the topic in order to see what Snipe's take on it would be. I was pleasantly surprised, to say the least.

Oracle - 6 months ago

Just awesome :) Brilliant :)

Wolfguarde - 6 months ago

This is absolutely beautiful. The passion and research going into the game show through very clearly even in the early stages through these tidbits. The crafting system alone is going to draw a huge number of people to the game, players who've been looking for an MMO that will allow them to fully immerse in its crafting systems in a satisfying, challenging and enjoyable way.

For those who are daunted looking at the degree of minutiae involved: Bear in mind that crafting isn't intended to be a side discipline, but a fully immersive playstyle on par with adventuring. A lot of us are used to having to do crafting as a side skill or two to make money in a game. CoE will instead give us the option to have those skillsets as the meat of our playstyle. It's a massive shift away from the conventional MMO design template, where combat is the only meaningful content outside of the economy.

If every crafting system has this level of detail, I suspect a fair number of crafters are going to find themselves interested in their respective ingame crafts out of game. This is the level of detail a game needs to have in its crafting system, to be so indepth and immersive that people want to explore the crafts they play and learn more about them. Thanks for an amazing info dump!

gtox - 6 months ago

First and foremost, great write-up Snipe; the quality and breadth of communication that SBS consistently displays is truly something that fellow game developers should be paying close attention to.

Before I share my thoughts on the subject, I do have a direct question regarding the content: Will the products that are created have any sort of "encoding" of what type of techniques were used in it's creation? Example/Concern: Say I am a Blacksmith that prefers to buy my ingots from local miners who also smelt their own bars. If I pay a premium price for bars that are made using an advanced technique, how do I know that I am getting what I payed for? Is there a way to tell if a bar was created using an inferior technique? If the answer is "No way to tell", would there possibly be consideration in having an "Inspection" type of skill that could be trained to discover those techniques and possible other information about the materials used, etc.? Thank you.

Having said that, I am so back and forth on this subject that it hurts. On one hand, I absolutely love the amount of detail and thought that the developers have put into the game in general, but most notably in the crafting presented here. But on the other hand, I worry that this amount of complexity will be a barrier for a lot of players who simply aren't THAT committed to the craft.

While I understand that having a barrier of sorts created by complexity can be a good thing in that it increases the "competitiveness" of a gameplay feature that is normally dulled down to the point of being openly accessible to everyone with a single spark of brain power. So as a result of the increased difficulty, there are less people practicing it (or less people who continue with it once they tire of trying). Weeding out the riff-raff is not bad in itself, but what does that mean for those players. Are there now an overabundance of "adventurers" simply because it is easier and more accessible?

Pardon my comparison to themepark MMOs, but when one profession is more profitable (using profit here, because no professions are "difficult" in typical MMOs) than another, then you expectedly see a severe lack of the less-profitable profession. I am curious if SBS has thought of a way to combat this possible scenario. I would hate to see a reality where 80% of the population became an adventurer/bodyguard simply because the value|effort ratio for crafting was too far off.

One possible answer that I would expect to see is that, "Yes the crafting takes a lot of effort, but it is rewarded with much higher value."; which, admittedly, would be a valid point, in my opinion.

I have complete confidence that SBS has (or will have) a plan to avoid these scenarios, but I still think it is worth discussing.

Snipehunter - 6 months ago
@gtox:

Posted By gtox at 10:01 AM - Thu Apr 05 2018

Before I share my thoughts on the subject, I do have a direct question regarding the content: Will the products that are created have any sort of "encoding" of what type of techniques were used in it's creation? Example/Concern: Say I am a Blacksmith that prefers to buy my ingots from local miners who also smelt their own bars. If I pay a premium price for bars that are made using an advanced technique, how do I know that I am getting what I payed for? Is there a way to tell if a bar was created using an inferior technique? If the answer is "No way to tell", would there possibly be consideration in having an "Inspection" type of skill that could be trained to discover those techniques and possible other information about the materials used, etc.? Thank you.

We'll cover it in more detail later, I'm sure, but there is an examination and appraisal mechanic that you can use to examine an item and learn about its properties. This means you can, essentially, "see for yourself" -- but you are limit to what you know, meaning if you have no idea about the value or properties of metals, your examination of the object won't turn up as much as an examination from a master miner or smith. You can share what you know about an item with someone else, however, so you can also pay someone to appraise items for you.

Having said that, I am so back and forth on this subject that it hurts. On one hand, I absolutely love the amount of detail and thought that the developers have put into the game in general, but most notably in the crafting presented here. But on the other hand, I worry that this amount of complexity will be a barrier for a lot of players who simply aren't THAT committed to the craft.

While I understand that having a barrier of sorts created by complexity can be a good thing in that it increases the "competitiveness" of a gameplay feature that is normally dulled down to the point of being openly accessible to everyone with a single spark of brain power. So as a result of the increased difficulty, there are less people practicing it (or less people who continue with it once they tire of trying). Weeding out the riff-raff is not bad in itself, but what does that mean for those players. Are there now an overabundance of "adventurers" simply because it is easier and more accessible?

It's worth remembering that players won't be the only craftsfolk in the world. We're not mandating that any player craft, though relying on the NPC population for your goods might not be the most efficacious approach.

Pardon my comparison to themepark MMOs, but when one profession is more profitable (using profit here, because no professions are "difficult" in typical MMOs) than another, then you expectedly see a severe lack of the less-profitable profession. I am curious if SBS has thought of a way to combat this possible scenario. I would hate to see a reality where 80% of the population became an adventurer/bodyguard simply because the value|effort ratio for crafting was too far off.

We have several approaches, actually. You hit on one axis yourself: The amount of labor required is directly related to the value of the object being created. The trades are also interconnected; there are very few things that can be produced with only the work of a single skill line. Clothing needs dyes, metal fixtures, tanned leather, etc. Metalwork likewise needs components such as handles and reagents that are created by other crafts. Even a cook needs tools made by a smith. This is one step of many to ensure that the work product of each craft has utility to players and NPCs alike so that there is always demand. And where there's demand, there's value. That should help to ensure that every craft is profitable.

But that doesn't necessarily mean the crafts will earn equal income. That's where the an aspect of the player skill elements of the various crafts come in. Beyond the hardcore profiteers, most players will self-sort based on what they enjoy doing. Each craft is different and you can feel that as you attempt them. Sure, alone that probably isn't enough but combined with everything else we're doing, we should see a better spread of trades than you're worried we'll see.

Hope that helps! :)

gtox - 6 months ago
@Snipehunter:

Thank you very much for so thoroughly replying (there's that wonderful communication again!)

We'll cover it in more detail later, I'm sure, but there is an examination and appraisal mechanic that you can use to examine an item and learn about its properties. This means you can, essentially, "see for yourself" -- but you are limit to what you know, meaning if you have no idea about the value or properties of metals, your examination of the object won't turn up as much as an examination from a master miner or smith. You can share what you know about an item with someone else, however, so you can also pay someone to appraise items for you.

That is exactly what I wanted to hear, especially the part about the tools being limited to the character's knowledge. I couldn't be happier with that response.

It's worth remembering that players won't be the only craftsfolk in the world. We're not mandating that any player craft, though relying on the NPC population for your goods might not be the most efficacious approach.

I admit, I feel really dumb now that you say that because I completely forgot about NPCs. hehe

Thank you for clarifying, and it does seem like an obvious non-issue now.

We have several approaches, actually. You hit on one axis yourself: The amount of labor required is directly related to the value of the object being created. The trades are also interconnected; there are very few things that can be produced with only the work of a single skill line. Clothing needs dyes, metal fixtures, tanned leather, etc. Metalwork likewise needs components such as handles and reagents that are created by other crafts. Even a cook needs tools made by a smith. This is one step of many to ensure that the work product of each craft has utility to players and NPCs alike so that there is always demand. And where there's demand, there's value. That should help to ensure that every craft is profitable.

But that doesn't necessarily mean the crafts will earn equal income. That's where the an aspect of the player skill elements of the various crafts come in. Beyond the hardcore profiteers, most players will self-sort based on what they enjoy doing. Each craft is different and you can feel that as you attempt them. Sure, alone that probably isn't enough but combined with everything else we're doing, we should see a better spread of trades than you're worried we'll see.

Again, thank you for clarifying or, at the very least, appeasing my concerns. I understand that you can't give a lot of specifics, but it is nice to hear that you guys have a lot of plans in place to handle these sorts of situations. I can't wait to try my hand at some of these crafts and see what sticks!

Jedzea - 6 months ago

I am a bit concerned about having the "limitations" of only visual and auditory clues, especially with the two main professionals I have chosen. (1. cooking -- where we rely on smell and taste and (2. sewing/tailoring and tapestries -- relying on feel and weight of the fabric and our stitches. So, much of both of those trades are not just visual -- you tell when the cake is done just right when you touch it lightly with you finger and it springs back. Etc., If you are getting your raw materials and creating the fabric yourself on a loom or spinning it, what flock of sheep did you get the wool from and/or the flax/cotton crop? Quality?? How do you judge that? And then the issue does arise just because you make a beef stew that you like -- someone might prefer it with more "hot peppers". How do these kinds of variables play into the system???

Love the thought -- blacksmithing has been hinted at and giving so much thought and attention, I would like to see other scenarios of other RL crafting that will make a difference and can someone make a living at them or is it just a novelty?

Thanks,

Jed

Lentor - 6 months ago
@Jedzea:

Just to put my 2 cents in: in video games don't you ever use visual and auditory clues for anything you do in video games anyways? So why does it matter?

gtox - 6 months ago
@Lentor:

Well it does matter to a lot of people. While I don't necessarily agree with some of the concerns of Jedzea, I do have some similar concerns of my own involving the auditory portion of the system.

On the casual side of things, what about people who want to listen to music while they play, chat with friends on discord, play in an environment that discourages the use of sound on (even the use of headphones). If my wife calls me while I am playing, do I suddenly have to abandon the crafting that I am doing simply because I won't be able to hear the mandatory audio cues? That is an accessibility concern.

On the more serious side, what about the hearing impaired? Will there be some sort of visual modification for those people?

While my desire to have a very in-depth crafting system trumps the accessibility of the system, those are still concerns and will be of varying importance to other people.

phenopsyche - 6 months ago
@gtox:

Well they did say that there will be both visual and auditory cues so you can choose which you'd prefer to use so if you're gonna be listening to music and chatting I'd suggest you get them peepers ready

Orashna - 6 months ago

Can't wait to start testing these mechanics out!

Polite - 6 months ago

What an absolutely beautiful developer journal. I only wish there were more hours in a day for how much time I'll want to put into this game.

I think it also speaks well that as I was reading this I had almost equal parts excitement and dread at times. "Oh god there's so many steps where I can screw something up... but that also means if I become really good and ace all of them my products will be amazing!"

Really nice SBS and Snipehunter, keep up the excellent work.

VictoriaRachel - 6 months ago

Are properties quantitative?

For example "a baker may know the way to bake chocolate chip cookies that taste like home." Let's assume that adds the homeliness quality to an item.

If you bake your biscuit really well with the right technique and get everything spot on to get your homeliness property does it either:

a) Give you a +10 homeliness boost to your biscuit, rather than a +1 boost of someone who was not as spot on with the technique.

b) Give your biscuit the homeliness property, and no other undesirable properties that might sneak in if you were less good at the technique.

c) You either get homeliness or you don't there is not a range of skill involved.

d) Another route.

Snipehunter - 6 months ago
@VictoriaRachel:

Posted By VictoriaRachel at 06:26 AM - Thu Apr 05 2018

Are properties quantitative?

For example "a baker may know the way to bake chocolate chip cookies that taste like home." Let's assume that adds the homeliness quality to an item.

If you bake your biscuit really well with the right technique and get everything spot on to get your homeliness property does it either:

a) Give you a +10 homeliness boost to your biscuit, rather than a +1 boost of someone who was not as spot on with the technique.

b) Give your biscuit the homeliness property, and no other undesirable properties that might sneak in if you were less good at the technique.

c) You either get homeliness or you don't there is not a range of skill involved.

d) Another route.

It's B) Your work gains the homeliness property and because you executed it perfectly, no negative properties creep in.

Hope that helps! :)

Illuminati - 6 months ago
@VictoriaRachel:

Posted By VictoriaRachel at 09:26 AM - Thu Apr 05 2018

Are properties quantitative?

For example "a baker may know the way to bake chocolate chip cookies that taste like home." Let's assume that adds the homeliness quality to an item.

If you bake your biscuit really well with the right technique and get everything spot on to get your homeliness property does it either:

a) Give you a +10 homeliness boost to your biscuit, rather than a +1 boost of someone who was not as spot on with the technique.

b) Give your biscuit the homeliness property, and no other undesirable properties that might sneak in if you were less good at the technique.

c) You either get homeliness or you don't there is not a range of skill involved.

d) Another route.

I don't think homeliness means what you think homeliness means.

VictoriaRachel - 6 months ago
@Illuminati:

Posted By Illuminati at 7:16 PM - Thu Apr 05 2018

I don't think homeliness means what you think homeliness means.

It means exactly what I think it means in British, but apparently the yanks have decided to give it other meanings too.

Lethality - 6 months ago

Ah! One more thought... I love the idea of properties, and I was wondering if raw materials might work that way as well?

For example, if not necessarily expressed in stats, will copper ore have properties such as: conductivity, density and hardness? (as examples; I'm no metallurgist :)

And if so, does that mean a vein of copper discovered over there might have higher conductivity than the vein discovered over here, which means one of those piles of copper can be better for certain uses?

I'm thinking too much... I also have SWG on my brain :)

Malais - 6 months ago
@Lethality:

Posted By Lethality at 06:48 AM - Thu Apr 05 2018

Ah! One more thought... I love the idea of properties, and I was wondering if raw materials might work that way as well?

For example, if not necessarily expressed in stats, will copper ore have properties such as: conductivity, density and hardness? (as examples; I'm no metallurgist :)

And if so, does that mean a vein of copper discovered over there might have higher conductivity than the vein discovered over here, which means one of those piles of copper can be better for certain uses?

I'm thinking too much... I also have SWG on my brain :)

I like the idea of something similar but perhaps easier for everyone envolved. Instead of different stats by vein perhaps different quality level. Each quality level perhaps just 3 has set stats based on the quality.

Vein 1 is high quality from the ground. Meaning it has the best possible qualities copper can convey in any given project.

Vein 2 is low quality. It had the lowest quality possible so would be basicly junk.

However as an added layer a good metal worker with good tools/furnace can raise this quality level a bit by using more (quantity) of raw ore from vein 2. So while it may take twice as much vein 2 in the hands of a master can be as effective in projects as vein 1.

The quality of the ore would be hidden from anyone without basic metal working skills.

Lethality - 6 months ago

I mean, without a doubt a seminal work; a literal treatise that the genre needed for a long, long time... bravo, Snipe!

Although this might not be directly related to crafting... and as usual I tend to read a bit too much into things:

... a baker may know the way to bake chocolate chip cookies that taste like home. Their secret is as likely to be a matter of which techniques they use as it is which ingredients were used.

I've always been interested in this aspect of crafting. It's most easily illustrated in an example with food, as above.

What will make me walk 4 blocks to a bakery to buy their chocolate ship cookies, when I could get some at the general store right around the corner from my house?

Why go to a restaurant with that spaghetti when this restaurant sells spaghetti and we're already here?

That kind of thinking :)

I know there was talk of a player sensory system at some point, and I don't remember where that stands. But, is it possible this system would be used in conjunction with, say, food to express the types of outcomes above?

"I like spicy things, so I prefer the salsa that is sold at that store."

There's that pesky cognitive dissonance thing... but looking past that... :)

I think something like this would open up so much cool gameplay for crafters and even pure merchant players!

Anyway, again a great writeup Snipe!

Costanius - 6 months ago

This all sounds very nice and impressive! Now just go and programm all that! :)

Ivylena - 6 months ago

One of many reasons I backed this game. Nice!! :)

switchblade - 6 months ago

i cant wait to see how making poisons is gonna turn out to be XD

Jacks - 6 months ago

So I spend all that time and effort to make my super cool weapons that will make all of my friends jealous, and then someone takes me out and steals it... looks like I'll be staying around town or hiring guards Lmao.

Jacks - 6 months ago
@Jacks:

I will be a Smith anyone though.

HajimeSaito - 6 months ago

Amazing stuff Snipehunter and SBS. I am really looking forward to crafting.

@Snipehunter: I do have 1 concern though.

leaves can be dried or pressed to become alchemical components or cooking ingredients

Is this quote an actual example of alchemy in CoE or is it more an off the cuff analogy to illustrate the point?

I have to be honest and say that if it is an actual example of alchemy, I am going to be extremely disappointed as I would have hoped that the realism put in to aging, smithing and most other aspects of CoE's world and professions would also extend to alchemy which was really nothing more than a debunked pseudoscience, trying to convert/transmute matter such as lead and mercury in to gold through chemical reactions involving men's urine, which ultimately produced a "yellow" substances which definitely wasn't gold, but was most likely a sulfonated compound.

The myth of "alchemy", potions and it's supposed use in healing has been propagated for far too long in MMO's.

Personally I'd like to see a realistic or somewhat close approximation and/or extrapolation of alchemy, being more of an experimental inorganic chemistry, that could possibly be used in game to research, discover and create new compounds, new synthetic substances and polymers with industrial application by many other professions.

WilliamVonFalkenfels - 6 months ago

Awesome work! Looks really nice

Zakarus - 6 months ago

Bloody brilliant with how much crafting you will be able to do. I hope other crafting jobs will get some of the same treatment.

Gnox - 6 months ago

Awesome! It reminds me of point-and-click adventures with an additional charakter-skill component. "Use recipe on item. Then combine item1 with item2 to get item 3. Then use item 3 on i.e. forge." And all affected by character skill such as player skill. Great system!

Cooking or alchemy could work in a similar fashion. Just like brewing the power potion in "The book of unwritten tales" (in case someone knows the game!)

I'm curious how the rest of the crafting apart from a blacksmith's will work!

Fenrer - 6 months ago

Perhaps a bit too time consuming for someone with little free time, but it does sound rewarding.

I shall eagerly look forward to finding out what an ingame artist can do and how failing or success is handled in that profession, a bit of spilled paint or shaky lines does not sound as devastating and hazardous as some other professions mishaps..

Unless using toxic pigments... oh well, it is good to be one of the Dras then!

The more I think about it, the more I feel I should take up a profession I would have use for in real life... Like learning cooking ingame so I wouldn't be so helpless in the kitchen in real life. Making repulsive rotten food & beans look good for my tribe don't sound so bad.. or the other way, make it look like proper nightmare fuel with some artistic flare perhaps...

Damn you all for making it so hard to choose, all options look too tempting!

Xonth - 6 months ago

I like that its going to keep some from going crafting due to its complexity, which is a good thing. It make some one really have to commit to it. If i need some components for my craft I cant just pick up another craft over night to try to stay self sufficient.

My question would be about NPC/OPC using trade skills. I was under the thinking they could craft also but its a huge hill to climb unless shortcuts are added.

EsCue - 6 months ago

I am impressed, really nice work! And I can already imagine this for 'all' skills to be the approach, so I can't wait to try to brew my first successful potion.

Klorinth - 6 months ago

Question:

IRL I am a blacksmith. I know multiple crafts actually. I like to learn.

How much will my RL know of the craft improve my ability to perform it and advance my characters skill? Do I still need to use the recipe if I already know what is needed? Same thing for the techniques that need to be learned.

Does my RL knowledge and skill improve my characters?

Ps. Bloody Fantastic work!! I am very happy to see you get crafting so right.

Terrantal - 6 months ago
@Klorinth:

Posted By Klorinth at 06:53 AM - Thu Apr 05 2018

Question:

IRL I am a blacksmith. I know multiple crafts actually. I like to learn.

How much will my RL know of the craft improve my ability to perform it and advance my characters skill? Do I still need to use the recipe if I already know what is needed? Same thing for the techniques that need to be learned.

Does my RL knowledge and skill improve my characters?

Ps. Bloody Fantastic work!! I am very happy to see you get crafting so right.

Your questions were answered in the DJ. Yes, you still need the ingame recipe because you need to open the recipe when you start crafting. Doing this will let the game know what you are making.

As for your RL experience, you might have an advantage because you for example know better when to stop heating etc.

Klorinth - 6 months ago
@Terrantal:

Posted By Terrantal at 02:41 AM - Thu Apr 05 2018

Your questions were answered in the DJ. Yes, you still need the ingame recipe because you need to open the recipe when you start crafting. Doing this will let the game know what you are making.

As for your RL experience, you might have an advantage because you for example know better when to stop heating etc.

They did touch on how having RL knowledge or skill in a craft will help. They didn’t explain how and how much it might help. Using smithing as the example and saying that my experience judging the colour/heat of the metal makes perfect sense and it’s a great idea... but it is such a tiny part of the whole process of smithing. They gave some basic bescriptions of all the different steps followed by a smith (their are many more in RL). Does my RL experience only help with that one Step?

What about these? Fire building and use. Positioning in the fire Tong control and selection Placement on the anvil Use of the anvil Hammer control and selection Drawing, upsetting, and general shaping of the metal Cooling of parts during forging to help control the movement of the metal or preserve it. Tool design and creation - a smith makes the tools they need to create every item.

I could keep going for quite a while. And these are extremely vague descriptions of different aspect of a smiths work. Many would be offended by what I just wrote since they spend a lifetime mastering the trade and art.

I asked my question because they only really mentioned the one tiny aspect of the work. I am asking how much of my experience could impact performance in the game. If it is only one aspect then that levels the learning curve for everyone. If it is many of the steps then people like myself will have a significant advantage in our RL crafts. I am trying to understand that part because it will make a difference in my selections of trades.

Ps. I am not likely to pick blacksmith, Carpenter, leatherworker, gardener, etc. I already do those things in RL. I will use those as secondary skills only.

Huntsmaster - 6 months ago
@Klorinth:

Posted By Klorinth at 9:53 PM - Wed Apr 04 2018

IRL I am a blacksmith. I know multiple crafts actually. I like to learn.

Cool! What sort of stuff do you make?

Arkyon - 6 months ago

Amazing!!!! Looking forward to try blacksmithing in game

AeonWulf - 6 months ago

soo amazing!!

MatrimCauthon - 6 months ago

I'd really hate to lag during any of this though :/

Eurickdm - 6 months ago

The amount of animations required to each single kind of craft proceess part possible in the world... The imersion fun/balance in each crafting professions The amount research about the details required in each crafting thecnic...

Trying to read with skeptcism. I hope that they deliver all of this, but i can just think about the game's scope, possible delays and some crafting professions being implemented way less imersive and detailed than the "cool/popular in every mmorpg" ones.

Mister Anderson - 6 months ago

Maybe the amount of time taken will certainly add value to the end product, Supply and demand that type of thing. Rather than pushing a button and pumping out 10 of the same item, it takes a bit of time and effort like RL Superior product will take more skill and material input and have higher value, a real incentive to improve skills, unlike other mmos where most crafted stuff was junk

Dariusacmar - 6 months ago

Very well done. I hope the time needed in each step of the crafting process is long enough to make the items valuable and the feeling of accomplishment, both singly and multiplicative, truly worthwhile.

DerryFH - 6 months ago

Holy shit.. that journal is awesome. Finally crafting that I wanted in any game till this date.

I have just one question, as my free time is getting shorter and shorter every year.

Snipehunter, could you please guesstimate the time needed for an average player to create the sword described in the journal?

From reading, it sounds like 30-60 minutes for the whole process. And while I am all hands for such approach, I have to consider if I will really be able to find enough time to fully enjoy crafting and have some more for other aspects of the game.

Grimshok - 6 months ago

Craftily crafting Crafting! Brilliant! Thank you

Deftly - 6 months ago

I'm not going to be a crafter but this makes me happy to see how much effort people need to put into crafting..Now if someone were to steal something that someone put that much effort into that are much more likely to hire someone like me to help me find it.

Chroniclesofalias - 6 months ago

Damn I don't think there's a single CoE dev journal that isn't revolutionary and awesome. Truly a game that could potentially be great in all aspects.

Huntsmaster - 6 months ago

No real surprises in this DJ if you've been in Discord or generally paying attention. I love the attention to detail and the clear intention to make crafting a true skill and not a progress bar.The whole thing looks like a good package, and though I'll shed a tear at refining not needing a bloomery furnace, I love the mantra the team has set out:

“Verisimilitude > Veracity”

That's a great summation of what we've been told for months, that the systems should "feel real" even if they aren't 100% true to life.

I am very curious to know how this will be applied in the skills that fewer people know well, or the less well known elements of a skill like blacksmithing. For example: will tin and copper refining be done in the same fashion as iron, or are the significant IRL differences enough to warrant modifications of the game systems? Likewise, edge quenching or clay packing are one thing, but is slack quenching important enough to earn its own mechanic? Is tempering? (I would make a strong argument in favor of this one!).

For example in the opposite direction, IRL iron ores are not generally rocks. Some are sandstones, but most are really just dirt. Bog iron ranges from larger "rock like" masses down to tiny beads. Is there a compelling reason to make an iron ore be a rock, aside from popular expectation?

Monkeyfuzzz - 6 months ago

This game just keeps getting better and better. CoE ( future winner of 8 different awards )really awesome

Aemon_Blackfyre - 6 months ago

This journal exceeds my greatest expectations Snipe. Great job!

TimeWaster - 6 months ago

This looks awesome. I may have to stoop to a crafter just for the experience. ;) I can't wait to see the details of how this is implemented into other crafts like baking or brewing!

Varhukan - 6 months ago

Thanks snipehunter

Mister Anderson - 6 months ago

If even half this stuff is in the game, its going to be the most ground breaking game ever. ps. I hope the devs are going to write an instruction manual they can sell us. I think I need it

TimeWaster - 6 months ago
@Mister Anderson:

"The Elyrian Survival Guide" Find it at a merchant near you!

Higuy333 - 6 months ago

Good update! Although is this just the plans for crafting or are yall actually working on this right now. If so I think it's cool but would it not be better to focus on one thing at a time, like making a world and mechanics that you can at least walk around in, and if you already have why haven't we seen more of it? Maybe it's just me but I feel like that makes more sense.

Prof_Griz - 6 months ago
@Higuy333:

Posted By Higuy333 at 6:05 PM - Wed Apr 04 2018

If so I think it's cool but would it not be better to focus on one thing at a time, like making a world and mechanics that you can at least walk around in, and if you already have why haven't we seen more of it? Maybe it's just me but I feel like that makes more sense.

That's what the Vox Elyria, coming out "soon" is going to be.

Great work on this Journal Snipehunter, keep it up and don't rush yourselves.

Helenda - 6 months ago

I know which profession I'm not doing giggle

Ravenlute - 6 months ago
@Helenda:

Posted By Helenda at 4:01 PM - Wed Apr 04 2018

I know which profession I'm not doing giggle

Animal breeding? That may be a bit more "hands on" than some people are comfortable with.

Ravenlute - 6 months ago

Snipehunter, I have a few questions.

  1. What is the 'Journal' that is being referenced which contains your Recipes? Is it a metagame item that holds the characters knowledge or is it a physical item that can be lost or stolen?

  2. If everything in the world is/can be made by players, then does that mean there will be Recipes for making the tools such as the anvil, tongs, grinding wheel, etc. shown in the example?

  3. Can both Recipes and Techniques be written into books using Scholarship and/or Scribing so that others who read them can learn them?

kuthedk - 6 months ago

This is really outstanding and beyond amazing. the level of detail going into this MMO system is ground-breaking and I can only imagine how it's going to be in game to actually have an actual influence on how well the goods we craft will be. It comes down to how skilled we are at interpreting the cues from the crafting system, how much knowledge we know both in and out of game, and how often we are able to explore different techniques and methods, along with how we learn from our success and failures.

Mhaura - 6 months ago

Amazing detail, I'm so excited to see how drafting patterns and sewing will look! Keep up the great work SBS! ❤

Belzak - 6 months ago

Holy CRAP, that was an amazing write up. Crafting sounds incredible. Good work SBS!

Lady ShyHeart - 6 months ago

Sounded like there will be prerequisite techniques? I thought CoE was against pointless grinding

Caspian - 6 months ago
@Lady ShyHeart:

Posted By Lady ShyHeart at 3:14 PM - Wed Apr 04 2018

Sounded like there will be prerequisite techniques? I thought CoE was against pointless grinding

That's the beauty of this system. It dissociates skills from crafting requirements.

In most MMOs, you'd need to make 100 daggers (a lower level item), before you can make longswords (a higher level items). In this scenario, being able to craft daggers is a requirement to crafting swords.

In CoE, we want to be able to introduce new technology throughout the 10 year story, and we don't want people to have to craft lower "tier" items a bunch of times just to be able to craft the hot new tech.

That said, in CoE, daggers and swords might require mastery/knowledge of the same techniques. That means with the introduction of the new technology, you can "cut your teeth" on either. You still need to be proficient in the right techniques, but you can learn them while crafting either daggers or swords.

Lady ShyHeart - 6 months ago
@Caspian:

Posted By Caspian at 6:38 PM - Wed Apr 04 2018

Posted By Lady ShyHeart at 3:14 PM - Wed Apr 04 2018

Sounded like there will be prerequisite techniques? I thought CoE was against pointless grinding

That's the beauty of this system. It dissociates skills from crafting requirements.

In most MMOs, you'd need to make 100 daggers (a lower level item), before you can make longswords (a higher level items). In this scenario, being able to craft daggers is a requirement to crafting swords.

In CoE, we want to be able to introduce new technology throughout the 10 year story, and we don't want people to have to craft lower "tier" items a bunch of times just to be able to craft the hot new tech.

That said, in CoE, daggers and swords might require mastery/knowledge of the same techniques. That means with the introduction of the new technology, you can "cut your teeth" on either. You still need to be proficient in the right techniques, but you can learn them while crafting either daggers or swords.

Ah I see, thank you for clearing that up!

_Kenna_ - 6 months ago

Wow this is awesome! - not that I'm at all surprised ;) So much good stuff to look forward to! I love that we could even learn a thing or two about real life trades by crafting in CoE! Great work guys and Thank you!

ScarletteTaygen - 6 months ago

Reason 9 million to love you! Great progress!

Czermoon - 6 months ago

Very nice! Love the detail that went into this, showing that people will not really be able to take up every profession with ease, as they all require expertise and practice with player skill.

StrawHat - 6 months ago

I cant hold back the tears ... I'm so happy

Xarkfleur - 6 months ago

Superior work deserves superior kudos:

Awesomesauce Snipehunter!!

Enjoyed and will reference muchly. Thank you!!

ImbuedGreen - 6 months ago

Excellent journal, I've been eager to see more on crafting and am excited by this update/transition.

A random thought that came to me:

Posted By Snipehunter at 5:15 PM - Tue Apr 03 2018

...a baker may know the way to bake chocolate chip cookies that taste like home.

Is "taste" a mechanic? Perhaps related to the Sensory-Map? Does the euphoric taste of excellent food provide benefits, or are the benefits of food limited to literal nutrition?

How would you go about creating the "best" cookie objectively, or food in general, when considering there are different food recipes/techniques? Or IS it subjective?

With the amount of detail and lengthy explanation it took just to express some of the Blacksmithing processes, I understand that you likely don't have all of the systems for every single craft established yet. Your cookie analogy just stood out to me, and it seems to me that cooking/food seems fairly different compared to most other crafting professions, when you're dealing with consumables that are generally differentiated only by aesthetics, biological benefits, and taste, as opposed to physical, tangible, semi-permanent "merchandise" like swords.

Xanderill - 6 months ago

Cries tears of pure hot metal. This is the crafting system I have looked for my entire life! Finally, I can happily be a blacksmith and really FEEL like one!

CommonlyQuixotic - 6 months ago

As a crafter, reading this was absolutely thrilling. This system looks like it will capture exactly what I love about real world crafting, and provide countless hours of satisfying gameplay. I'm even more excited to get into the game than I was before!

Gorawyn - 6 months ago

The time and dedication it is going to take to master a craft is refreshing. Too many times in MMO's and Survival games, crafting amounts to, gather resources, fill containers, mass craft, profit. Now I know if I have a sword, someone put a lot of time and effort into making that piece of gear. I will value it far more than something that could be made in seconds and mass produced.

I love crafting and am often one who will do everything I can to become the best at a craft. I became an endgame raider because that was the only way to get the best recipes in a few MMO's I've played. I love the attention to detail and can't wait to see how the other crafts are built out.

One thing this journal did make me consider is all the different people who have grand plans of doing a lot of different crafts and being good at them are going to find that they do not have the time to invest in advancing their skills past beginner unless they find a focus.

Some folks who have said, "I'm going to be a blacksmith." might be looking at this and rethinking their game goals.

Overall very awesome post and I am excited to get to craft in CoE.

StoneCyfer - 6 months ago

As a RL Blade/Blcaksmith, I am truly impressed with this Dev Journal. D**n fine job you guys!

CaptainSeli - 6 months ago

Great write up Snipe! You almost had me wanting to become a blacksmith!

The depth of crafting in CoE will be a welcome call to those poor lost crafters out there, who just couldn't find a game that they could craft freely in!

I'm very excited to see what else CoE makes amazing.

Raykonx - 6 months ago

That's just insane! I think that this project is really awesome but I'd like to watch a simple video because it's just too good to be true right now.

Hope you can do it guys!

OBH - 6 months ago

It really does exist....

Flawliss - 6 months ago

Snipe answered questions is Discord. Here's some of the meat!

Snipehunter - Today at 3:03 PM The shape of the weapon will definitely have a part to play in how it performs when used "inappropriately"

Snipehunter - Today at 3:00 PM Oh! Wow, I totally did not add that to the DJ, wth was I thinking: Since weapons are componential, you can make pretty much any weapon you can think of. You just need the right components. So, want a Katana? Get yourself a recipe for a curved single edged blade with a hidden tang, a recipe for the handle wrap, and one for the guard and then assemble them into a katana. As for how you get recipes: Existing recipes are going to be found, purchased or taught in the world.

Experimentation is a different thing though: Many of the techniques you can employ are interchangeable and each of them changes the properties passed into the weapon, so depending on how you want to the weapon to perform you'd use different techniques. It's possible for techniques to impart visual changes as well, but in most cases the way a weapon looks is dictacted by the components you use while the way it performs is about materials used and techniques employed.

The weapon's "hitbox" (its edge) is componential too, though mostly dictated by the blade shape you forged.(edited)

Snipehunter - Today at 3:05 PM I put quotes around "hitbox" because the combat system will accept a strike not from the hitbox, it just gets processed differently in terms of damage and mitigation.

Snipehunter - Today at 3:28 PM You won't need new recipes to make signature weapons though - the way techniques apply properties to weapons and the way you assemble finished products from components means a LOT of variety even without pioneering new recipes.

Brynath Fyrwæge Ⓥᚠ - Today at 3:27 PM So the research mechanic is going to be how we come up with new recipes right?

Snipehunter - Today at 3:27 PM @Nienori It depends on the crafting station. There are several different types and sizes of anvil, for example, but really only two types of quenching vessel, in blacksmithing. @Brynath Fyrwæge Ⓥᚠ Yep :smiley:

Question was about people copying someones swords. Snipehunter - Today at 3:31 PM @AspenGrey Not much. I'd suggest passing some laws, engraving a makers mark, etc.

Here are some of the follow up questions and answers Snipehunter gave in Discord. Forgive the formatting. Great work on the Crafting system! i love it completely!

Heartagram - 6 months ago

Sorry but it looks so fake... at this stage there should be a video of crafting not a gif...

Skrge - 6 months ago

Can't wait to start researching my craft. A head start is always good. Thanks for the crafting journal. Very excited.

Daarco - 6 months ago

O M G! This journal made me so happy. Player skill actually mean something in CoE....for real!

Lodestone - 6 months ago

From a group standpoint, is it possible to make a line of work? For instance we have someone who is hammering the ore, another who is forming the blades, another who is grinding?

  • Do each of these components have value levels associated with them that we can separate?

  • Do each of these sections have an individual skill associated with it?

  • Is it possible to transport semi-complete crafting materials to other crafting locations to restart the process where it was left off, like unsharpened blades?

Vladius_Glacius - 6 months ago

Awesomeness inarnate!!! Love how indepth this is. The explanation on how the actual crafting work is very in depth. Now we can get a better feel on how in depth the other crafts will be.

  Thanx Snipehunter.
TheEvilBassist - 6 months ago

This is awesome, been waiting to hear some more about the crafting and hoping that we will get to explore other trades and professions in a similar format to this. I wholeheartedly embrace the fact that you're taking a step back from the "LiF-like" mini games and doing a more hands on approach in the spirit of KCD where you are interacting with the world in real time and performing those actions. Keep it up!

Noryn - 6 months ago

Brilliant!

Looking forward to spending time on such a rich crafting experience.

Conventia - 6 months ago

Assuming someone knows the solution to all crafting challenges that occur during one session of crafting, does their experience accrue faster based on whether they executed the solution better or worse? Basically, does increased player skill result in increased ability to perform above the character's skill level and increase the rate of advancing the character's skill level? (I hope so, since that's how it works IRL, mostly.)

Snipehunter - 6 months ago
@Conventia:

Posted By Conventia at 12:11 PM - Wed Apr 04 2018

Assuming someone knows the solution to all crafting challenges that occur during one session of crafting, does their experience accrue faster based on whether they executed the solution better or worse? Basically, does increased player skill result in increased ability to perform above the character's skill level and increase the rate of advancing the character's skill level? (I hope so, since that's how it works IRL, mostly.)

Yep! :) The system rewards you for attempting to push past your limits and succeeding, essentially.

Hope that helps! :)

Axalion - 6 months ago

Wow! This is intense, I never realized what would go on in crafting. How real will the timelines for crafting each component be? I know that the timescale in game isn't 1 : 1 with the real world, will crafting reflect that? I can imagine some crafts will be pretty complex, would making a single sword take hours like it would for real, or could this be done within a reasonable playing period? I'm really excited to try my hand at more than a few crafts, but it seems like it can be pretty daunting to learn.

Whocares21 - 6 months ago

This looks amazing. Wow.

A more complex and real crafting system like this will feal wonderful and i want to try it so much.

Cant wait to get my hands on this. You guys are amazing.

Lentor - 6 months ago

This is amazing!! If you guys ever have the time, I'd love to see a design journal like this one on how alchemy works! I really wanna know what an alchemist is capable of in this game!

Esoba - 6 months ago

Just incredible. I mean hamons, different quenching mediums, damascus steel. If y'all apply this same approach to every other crafting and profession this is going to be one very special game.

Hesus1337 - 6 months ago

Looking forward to this whole game, this crafting system looks rad!

LapantinoPT - 6 months ago

simply speechless

Jon_Warren - 6 months ago

Fantastic. This makes choosing a profession an important choice. We'll need to design player questlines that allow for job training, so new players can test out the professions they are interested in and settle on something they truly enjoy.

Daynen - 6 months ago

YYYEEESSSSSSS. Finally they will all see why crafting has SUCKED in video games for so long! Now they will all see what it means to truly be a gamer craftsman! I LOVE IT.

Sneezewortt - 6 months ago

The Forge Bound Association is looking forward to start working :). So hyped

Verith - 6 months ago

NEat

Thoren784 - 6 months ago

Cannot wait to become a Blacksmith in game.

Raindew - 6 months ago

What happens to that piece of unhardenable metal? Can it be recycled in someway? If not there's gonna be huge piles of waste metal in the world.....

Doskias - 6 months ago
@Raindew:

Melt it back down into a bar and sell it to your opponents through a traveling merchant. Gotta do some dirty work. Or you could use it for something that doesn't rely too heavily on hardness. I'm sure there will be many ways to recycle metal.

Kurko - 6 months ago

I LLLLLOVE IT ;D

RenegadeDastard - 6 months ago

Cookies CONFIRMED?!

Arthos - 6 months ago

This is very exciting and I depth as its great to see animated clips of what to expect to see. I would love to see a demo by one of the staff showing some of these skills in practice. I'm curious how cutting leaves off and such will look. It's rather interesting to see all of this in game. Plus I know more demo footage from the devs=More publicity!

Tarvald - 6 months ago

I'm in awe of this crafting system. Game changer.

Gunnlang - 6 months ago

Love the detail that went into this. Pure awesome.

Bombastus - 6 months ago

I.... I think I am in love.

Lady Grace - 6 months ago

Oh my ... now to find the time to be nothing other than a crafter, forever.

Honestly ... this will be a whole new level in MMO crafting. Being skilled as a crafter will mean something, not just that you had the right macro to grind out the required units of chaff to get the level ups.

<3

Logain - 6 months ago
@Lady Grace:

Posted By Lady Grace at 8:24 PM - Wed Apr 04 2018

(...)not just that you had the right macro to grind out the required units of chaff to get the level ups(...)

Please do not misunderstand me, I'm not trying to be a spoilsport, but we're talking about people on the internet playing a competitive game and in my humble experience that means you have to prepare for the worst. So, my question would be, don't you think there's going to be plenty a bot out doing exactly what you're worried about, leaving the 'player skill' as 'weak spot', by turning it meaningless?

Kalus - 6 months ago

Wow

just wow

Luminios - 6 months ago

So, can sufficient player skill solve all problems, or are some things literally impossible without being, for example, a master?

Snipehunter - 6 months ago
@Luminios:

Posted By Luminios at 11:18 AM - Wed Apr 04 2018

So, can sufficient player skill solve all problems, or are some things literally impossible without being, for example, a master?

You are limited in the actions you can take, to some extent, by what you know, so while every problem can be mitigated with player skill, sometimes the answer to "how do I fix that" might be slightly out of reach.

Hope that helps! :)

SgtShadoWolf - 6 months ago

MY CRIES HAVE BEEN ANSWERED!!! Thank you for this, much info to now download to my brain

VanHarsen - 6 months ago

Wow good job !

Johan Housel - 6 months ago

Some artisans are squealing, some are reeling :P The attention to detail with immersive design depth will make well for those that chose to do a trade for a living generation after generation for years of gameplay. I think there will be some daunted casual crafters kept to the lower rungs or on the outs entirely with such a system, but quite frankly that just mirrors reality better. While I enjoy inclusiveness, it's also not truly beneficial to a community or a world in general to dumb systems down so much that anyone can do anything with a few clicks. I wholly support this deep down and gritty approach to really earning the outcome of a crafting attempt. I may even have to find a hobby craft or two to enjoy if they all end up this attentively detailed :)

Kuponut - 6 months ago

Ahh finally a game that does crafting well :)

Dleatherus - 6 months ago

holy crap that's an awesome amount of info to digest, and an amazing insight into the depth you guys are looking at taking the crafting into

ty ty ty!!!

TheCoz - 6 months ago

Damn!

OberonPlusUltra - 6 months ago

Nice

Aika - 6 months ago

wow thats nice

GoldenKnight - 6 months ago

Looks cool!

Maulvorn - 6 months ago

Awesome!

Muninn - 6 months ago

More and more I look forward to getting in and dropping hot metal on my feet.

Tasnik - 6 months ago

wow, even as a non-crafter I love it

Jaidic - 6 months ago

Awesome work, thanks Snipe!