7 September

The Dance of Domains

By Vye

Hail and well met, Elyrians!

With Domain & Settlement Selection in full swing, and with the Settlers of Elyria Dutch-style auction coming up, it brings with it an entirely new phase to the Dance of Dynasties. Let's talk about what it is, what's already happened, and what to expect as we continue through to the next phase.

The Dance

Simply put, the Dance of Dynasties is the great political game of favors, alliances, and power played by lords and ladies and the highly ambitious. Political intrigue abounds when you play the game and the only way to win is to play. If you are a titled landowner, you're in the game already! When the nations of Elyria vie for dominance - whether through diplomacy, economy, or warfare - it is part of the Dance. When assassination plots and marriages are arranged, it's part of the Dance. When heirs are named and lineages ended, it's part of the Dance. When favor is given or owed, it is part of the Dance.

Chronicles of Elyria is a world where there is more to do than hunt monsters and get loot (but you can always go pursue the life of an Adventurer if that's what you're after!). There are layers to the gameplay that take place at the individual level, community level, governmental level, and world level. At each level, there is danger and drama. Heroic effort, skill, and the power of one's reputation will be the difference between survival and an early death! At every level!

The Dynasties

Domain & Settlement Selection, and the auction following it, mean that titled players are now real landowners in Elyria. Each one is a Dynasty waiting to thrive. Each one a potential threat or ally to another. Though people have been plotting and planning for months or years, it's hasn't been tangible or real until now. Now is when the Dance truly begins!

As this community continues through these events, and the lands meted out to players with an interest in governance, the members of each Kingdom, Duchy, and County will become its own roster of what are, in a way, guild members (as in the more traditional concept of a guild in an MMO): a group of players who are signing up to work on specific in-game goals together and who benefit from the size and quality of the collective. While there isn't raiding or grinding dungeons for rare loot in Chronicle of Elyria, there are plenty of objectives that will take large numbers of people coming together to coordinate and achieve a desired outcome. For characters who hold titles and lands, these might come in the form of the Sedecim, a royal wedding, or a conquest into neighboring lands.

Though there are communities that have already cropped up in the Forums and on Discord based on the promise of a great nation, no nations have previously existed. That's all changing, now that claims are being made on the lands of the starting continents.

While folks may instinctively cling to the communities to which they've already become a part, the relationships created thus far will not be enough to play the game. Much like in Texas Hold 'Em poker, you have some cards you were dealt (your own lands, your liege, other allies), but those alone are not sufficient to win. Only with the community cards that are played randomly on the table can you assemble a winning hand - just as it will be when unclaimed duchies, counties, and settlements will be picked up by new or newly-upgrading players! Don't think of those members who join your domain now as intruding on what you already have. Instead, think of them as the missing cards to an otherwise incomplete set.

Names and places are being written into the Chronicles as we speak. The final shape (in both borders and citizenry) for each kingdom, duchy, county, and settlement is still being penned. Old allies and new faces are being joined together in a way no other online game has attempted. By the time the ink is dry, a swath of land-bound communities will be able to begin playing the Dance together and preparing for the road ahead.

The Future

Each Kingdom, Duchy, and County is a grouping of duchies, counties, and settlements that are owned by real people who all share an interest in the more gubernatorial and political elements that Chronicles of Elyria has to offer. Though many found a community to join or swore allegiance to a liege before (unofficially), claiming land on the Elyrian map is the true and official way that Soulbound Studios always intended for these communities to be founded. The Dance of Dynasties is no longer a voluntary interest - it has officially begun!

As we continue toward launch, each set of liege and vassals will be able to plan and prepare for these planned events:

Alpha 1

During the first part of Alpha, those with access will be playing an early version of the game and providing feedback. The features planned in Alpha 1 are primarily around the plight of the individual. No governmental features will be in, so it will be the interest of titled landowners to pay attention to the quality of the natural environment, the architecture and arrangement of settlements, the Contract system, and the Knowledge and Gossip systems. All of these areas will be of import when it comes to supporting the economy and citizenry at a national scale.

Alpha 2

In the second part of Alpha, the land management features will be coming into play. While the characters and events that are experienced in Alpha (and Beta) are not going to be written into the Chronicles, this is the time to really put those systems through their paces to ensure that Chronicles of Elyria is the real deal, and provides title-holders the ability to rule the lands of Elyria in a whole variety of ways!

Kingdoms of Elyria

When Kingdoms of Elyria opens up, the scribes will be picking up their quills and recording the events. By this time, the features that support both individual advancement and gubernatorial play will have been tested, validated, iterated, and approved for elements of the real game to begin. Those communities that are just forming their roster of members through land selection now will be able to put their plans into play in Elyria's pre-launch history. Taking the reins of one's nation or settlement as one's ancestors, the conquests, alliances, treaties, and more that arise from gameplay during Kingdoms of Elyria will modify the starting circumstances of each title-holder once Exposition begins.

Exposition

Finally, in Exposition, the stage is set and anyone with access is invited into Elyria to give it its final shape. New buildings, new roads, new characters, and more will be popping up as Exposition Points are used to buy special Exposition Kits and Items. Don't like the primary industry of your settlement? Change it to another one that you have the resources for. Wish you had more Blacksmiths? Add more workshops with forges. Need to turn a small dock into a commercial harbor? Magically poof one into existence like it had always been there! Exposition is when vanilla Elyria is customized by players. On launch day, new players will be joining a world forged by Soulbound Studios and molded by your hand!

In Summary

The Dance of Dynasties, which started early on the forums and in Discord, is now a tangible part of Elyria because the promised nations are becoming official. We're going to see a lot of new names around, so please welcome these newcomers with the same enthusiasm that initially drew you into the community. Help catch them up on the wealth of information and help them navigate the Domain & Settlement Selection and Settlers of Elyria Events. More players, more landowners, is only going to make Chronicles of Elyria a better, more dynamic, and dramatic world in which to play in.

With the increase of activity in the forums and on Discord, please remember our Terms of Use and Code of Conduct. The Dance of Dynasties is a strictly in-character part of Chronicles of Elyria and we can't abide harassment or abuse to real people (just to the characters you intend to play in game, which isn't personal). It's easy to get excited and think about ways to take the Dance into the real world, but remember that the Dance of Dynasties is something you play to win, and Earth 1.0 doesn't have any win conditions so you'd probably get an error anyway.

We're very excited, here in the studio, to watch you play the Dance and see the shape of the world over the next few months. You all owe it to yourselves to enjoy it, too, and join in with us in raising a glass to the true beginning of the eternal Dance and the unwritten future of Elyria!

Pledged to Your Continued Adventures in Life, Both Actual and Fantasy,

Vye

Discuss

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Lejin - 2 weeks ago

Any great plan is only good until the event happens and then it goes out the window and we have to think on our feet :)

Xefipor - 1 month ago

This is all going to die down once D&SS is over.. Once everyone gets their people settled where they have been planning. Where new players and even non title holders wish to play will be pretty open.

Me as a count will not care what new player joins what settlement. I will only take note if said new player builds up a negative reputation for themselves.

As of right now.. Me being a Count.. I will pay as much attention to who claims a settlement in my county as I want.. And I really could give a shit what you think about that.

Loggy - 1 month ago

No time line yet... always been the answer

Marovec - 1 month ago

@gunn

That's extremely disingenuous. The leaders aren't asking every random to message them. They aren't even asking every domain leader to message them. Almost every leader was asking for random counts to message them.

People have taken what those leaders put out, and twisted it beyond all reason.

No, I don't think the leaders asking for counts to message them and work something out will give the community a rep for being "toxic wankers".

However, it is quite possible that people putting words into those leaders mouths, and spreading rumors that "no randoms are welcome" is the common mentality, will...

Gunnlang - 1 month ago
@Marovec:

Posted By Marovec at 07:28 AM - Mon Sep 16 2019

No, I don't think the leaders asking for counts to message them and work something out will give the community a rep for being "toxic wankers".

Seeing people here and on discord, throwing their weight around. Yeah it kind of does. Maybe to you it doesn't, but that isn't surprising either.

Again for the 50th time

I don't honestly get why people can't just reach out to any unknown titled people during expo. One month is completely locked to any sort of pvping. Most people will be focused on themselves/their area for the whole 3 months anywhere.

Yet somehow that's crazy talk and everything must be planned well in advance.

Or maybe this is just a difference in views. I'm excited to see all the different people I meet in game. But then I'm not really one for sitting on discord, talking about every little thing in some overkill amount of detail either. Groups are planning it out in extreme detail imo. Not leaving any room for error.

Posted By Malais at 08:52 AM - Mon Sep 16 2019

If you are the head of an alliance and some random guild drops in and decides to go left instead of right and ruins your plans wouldn’t you be slightly ticked?

Why would I be? You can't control people. You just adapt to the new situation. You can't expect everything to be completely to plan. More so in an sandbox MMO. I don't even think everyone within these communities will stay true to their word. People are going to change their views and move about. I rather just go with the flow, over getting all pissed that people didn't follow my plans I made years before.

Malais - 1 month ago
@Gunnlang:

Posted By Gunnlang at 7:31 PM - Sun Sep 15 2019

Posted By Marovec at 07:28 AM - Mon Sep 16 2019

No, I don't think the leaders asking for counts to message them and work something out will give the community a rep for being "toxic wankers".

Seeing people here and on discord, throwing their weight around. Yeah it kind of does. Maybe to you it doesn't, but that isn't surprising either.

Again for the 50th time

I don't honestly get why people can't just reach out to any unknown titled people during expo. One month is completely locked to any sort of pvping. Most people will be focused on themselves/their area for the whole 3 months anywhere.

Yet somehow that's crazy talk and everything must be planned well in advance.

Or maybe this is just a difference in views. I'm excited to see all the different people I meet in game. But then I'm not really one for sitting on discord, talking about every little thing in some overkill amount of detail either. Groups are planning it out in extreme detail imo. Not leaving any room for error.

Posted By Malais at 08:52 AM - Mon Sep 16 2019

If you are the head of an alliance and some random guild drops in and decides to go left instead of right and ruins your plans wouldn’t you be slightly ticked?

Why would I be? You can't control people. You just adapt to the new situation. You can't expect everything to be completely to plan. More so in an sandbox MMO. I don't even think everyone within these communities will stay true to their word. People are going to change their views and move about. I rather just go with the flow, over getting all pissed that people didn't follow my plans I made years before.

It’s not about importance of those with titles. Right now and via KoE and then expo we are building each servers individual world. It does matter that communities get to know their members so you can build out the duchy/county/kingdom how people building it would like it to be.

Like my highway analogy. The kingdom needs a highway to run from one end to the other. Yet while everyone else is building their part some rando decides to build a wall where the highway meets their lands.

Not only does it screw the other players who build their highway it also looks stupid and affects the gameplay of those without titles who want to travel.

Moving in and not saying hi! Is an asshat move pull. You don’t have to ask permission by any means but saying hi is the right thing to do.

Darkax - 1 month ago

Clearly some people here have not played many MMO's or online games at all. Respect, open mind, other players feelings, do not matter in a MMO. What matters is group A thinks they can take what group B has, they plan and build and craft to do exactly that. Then they march off to conquer the objective. If anyone thinks COE will be any different, you are mistaken. Players will come burn your crops kill your animals and loot your buildings just because they can. No rule or mechanic will prevent this.

Ragnar_Nordskov - 3 weeks ago
@Darkax:

“Respect, open mind, other players feelings, do not matter in a MMO. ” well this guy will fail lol guess who’s the first one to get back stabbed or dropped from the group....yup the guy who didn’t show respect for the other members lol

Darkax - 2 weeks ago
@Ragnar_Nordskov:

Posted By Ragnar_Nordskov at 11:46 AM - Thu Sep 19 2019

“Respect, open mind, other players feelings, do not matter in a MMO. ” well this guy will fail lol guess who’s the first one to get back stabbed or dropped from the group....yup the guy who didn’t show respect for the other members lol

I been playing mmo's since 1995 lol I speak from experience.

TVI Christian - 1 month ago

macleodoflewis sadly, no.

macleodoflewis - 1 month ago

Is there a possible date yet as to release of the game as a whole?

Dekul - 1 month ago

Posted By Woogawoman at 12:14 PM - Thu Sep 12 2019

Calling anyone who hasn't spent a ton of time in DIscord a "random" does not seem like a good start to having a considerate, productive conversation.

As another "random," I would not expect hostility directed at me because I did what I am allowed to do when it is my turn - pick a settlement. If it is my turn, it is my turn.

I have always been more interested in choosing a specific tribe with a specific environment to support the activities I want to have in my settlement. To date, most kingdom web sites and discord channels have come across as very "Neran" in tone, with little detail on how they expect to adapt based on the actual makeup of their regions and the actual attributes of those tribes,

As such, I have not selected a kingdom (and duke, and count, and whatever). And, in my opinion, I should not have to. My investment in the game and my influence level dictate my place in the order, and I should not need to adjust my choice in order to ensure someone who is going after me gets their preferred spot based on out of game discussions.

Respectfully submitted.

Yes... you paid your money and have the 'right' to pick your spot on your turn without any regard for anyone else. SBS will not stop you, and no one else has the power to stop you. That's where your right ends.

Just because you have the right to do something, doesn't mean there aren't consequences to abusing that right however. Like abusing your first amendment right can get you fired from your job or even punched in the face by another member of the public. Abusing your right to place by dropping into a community that has spent years working together and disrupting plans they have been carefully trying to make since maps became available (to the best of their ability and yes, aware that pick order is a thing) without so much as a "Hi, how do you do." can likewise bring the ire of said community and give them a reason to want to remove you from their area. Many communities are open and friendly and will welcome you in if you ask, and knowing ip order is a thing will respect your pick if you at least communicate so the other person can make new plans. But dropping in unannounced is a dick move and ultimately you will have to deal with the consequences for your choice.

Respectfully disagreeing.

Beathan - 1 month ago

The whales have placed, with very little drama. At this point, if someone's pick is disrupted, it is because they are a low to moderate IP count and, as such, should not have expected to get their first choice and should have had contingency picks.

That said, a random pick can fairly cause concern. If hostile, or even just insular, they can disrupt the communications, trade, and other workings of a duchy. There is plenty of time before launch to determine if that is the case -- and to integrate a goodwilled random into a duchy. There is also plenty of time to prepare a response to a random will ill intent -- or even just uncertain loyalties.

That's the thing about randoms. They can't really disrupt the game with impunity. They can change an expected pick order or placement plan for a full duchy. But that is not gameplay, that is metagame -- and no one is entitled to not have their metagame disrupted.

Now that low to moderate counts are picking, the chances of a truly hostile count has decreased significantly (to make that work -- a count would have to have high IP to pick the maximally disruptive or defensible spot and enough EP to withstand the reaction with some chance of success). It is now extremely likely that any random pick is not picking from ill-intent, but just because they like the spot and the tribe and are following the rules put in place by SBS.

Woogawoman - 1 month ago

Calling anyone who hasn't spent a ton of time in DIscord a "random" does not seem like a good start to having a considerate, productive conversation.

As another "random," I would not expect hostility directed at me because I did what I am allowed to do when it is my turn - pick a settlement. If it is my turn, it is my turn.

I have always been more interested in choosing a specific tribe with a specific environment to support the activities I want to have in my settlement. To date, most kingdom web sites and discord channels have come across as very "Neran" in tone, with little detail on how they expect to adapt based on the actual makeup of their regions and the actual attributes of those tribes,

As such, I have not selected a kingdom (and duke, and count, and whatever). And, in my opinion, I should not have to. My investment in the game and my influence level dictate my place in the order, and I should not need to adjust my choice in order to ensure someone who is going after me gets their preferred spot based on out of game discussions.

Respectfully submitted.

Leilah - 1 month ago
@Woogawoman:

I totally agree with what you said, I'm a Count and I picked based on race and resources in what I plan on doing within COE. I did however contact the Duke or Duchess informing them of my decision to pick a place, but it was not permission.

Tyson - 1 month ago
@Woogawoman:

Posted By Woogawoman at 1:14 PM - Thu Sep 12 2019

Calling anyone who hasn't spent a ton of time in DIscord a "random" does not seem like a good start to having a considerate, productive conversation.

As another "random," I would not expect hostility directed at me because I did what I am allowed to do when it is my turn - pick a settlement. If it is my turn, it is my turn.

I have always been more interested in choosing a specific tribe with a specific environment to support the activities I want to have in my settlement. To date, most kingdom web sites and discord channels have come across as very "Neran" in tone, with little detail on how they expect to adapt based on the actual makeup of their regions and the actual attributes of those tribes,

As such, I have not selected a kingdom (and duke, and count, and whatever). And, in my opinion, I should not have to. My investment in the game and my influence level dictate my place in the order, and I should not need to adjust my choice in order to ensure someone who is going after me gets their preferred spot based on out of game discussions.

Respectfully submitted.

A random is someone who picks without connection or even introduction to the local group. It can and often does take less than a day before being welcomed into a group if they have space.

The major issue seems to be people equating something being allowed with it being socially acceptable.

If you want to play the game without regard to the other players, that's fine, plenty of people will do that. But to expect them to say or do nothing in response?

Drudge - 1 month ago
@Tyson:

Posted By Tyson at 2:22 PM - Thu Sep 12 2019

Posted By Woogawoman at 1:14 PM - Thu Sep 12 2019

Calling anyone who hasn't spent a ton of time in DIscord a "random" does not seem like a good start to having a considerate, productive conversation.

As another "random," I would not expect hostility directed at me because I did what I am allowed to do when it is my turn - pick a settlement. If it is my turn, it is my turn.

I have always been more interested in choosing a specific tribe with a specific environment to support the activities I want to have in my settlement. To date, most kingdom web sites and discord channels have come across as very "Neran" in tone, with little detail on how they expect to adapt based on the actual makeup of their regions and the actual attributes of those tribes,

As such, I have not selected a kingdom (and duke, and count, and whatever). And, in my opinion, I should not have to. My investment in the game and my influence level dictate my place in the order, and I should not need to adjust my choice in order to ensure someone who is going after me gets their preferred spot based on out of game discussions.

Respectfully submitted.

A random is someone who picks without connection or even introduction to the local group. It can and often does take less than a day before being welcomed into a group if they have space.

The major issue seems to be people equating something being allowed with it being socially acceptable.

If you want to play the game without regard to the other players, that's fine, plenty of people will do that. But to expect them to say or do nothing in response?

Maybe they just figure that they will reach out to their neighbors a bit closer to release? Say 2021 or so? Not everyone wants to metagame for 4 years before a game comes out.

Tyson - 1 month ago
@Drudge:

Posted By Drudge at 6:20 PM - Thu Sep 12 2019

Posted By Tyson at 2:22 PM - Thu Sep 12 2019

Posted By Woogawoman at 1:14 PM - Thu Sep 12 2019

Calling anyone who hasn't spent a ton of time in DIscord a "random" does not seem like a good start to having a considerate, productive conversation.

As another "random," I would not expect hostility directed at me because I did what I am allowed to do when it is my turn - pick a settlement. If it is my turn, it is my turn.

I have always been more interested in choosing a specific tribe with a specific environment to support the activities I want to have in my settlement. To date, most kingdom web sites and discord channels have come across as very "Neran" in tone, with little detail on how they expect to adapt based on the actual makeup of their regions and the actual attributes of those tribes,

As such, I have not selected a kingdom (and duke, and count, and whatever). And, in my opinion, I should not have to. My investment in the game and my influence level dictate my place in the order, and I should not need to adjust my choice in order to ensure someone who is going after me gets their preferred spot based on out of game discussions.

Respectfully submitted.

A random is someone who picks without connection or even introduction to the local group. It can and often does take less than a day before being welcomed into a group if they have space.

The major issue seems to be people equating something being allowed with it being socially acceptable.

If you want to play the game without regard to the other players, that's fine, plenty of people will do that. But to expect them to say or do nothing in response?

Maybe they just figure that they will reach out to their neighbors a bit closer to release? Say 2021 or so? Not everyone wants to metagame for 4 years before a game comes out.

So introducing yourself to a community before dropping in is the same as multi-year metagaming? They don't need to meet some daily message and voice meeting quota, just a quick "hey whats up, can i join ya? this spot open? great! i'll check in on occasion and be more active when there's an actual game, thanks a bunch."

I've got a couple mayors I haven't heard from in 2 years but if they popped up in a town of mine i'd be cool with that because they at some point put literally the minimum effort in of messaging me beforehand.

Is this really what people are complaining about? That the people above them want a heads-up before someone they don't know just appears in their county/duchy? These people are going to have to interact with each other and their neighbors on a fairly regular basis, I would think they would want to know something before committing a few hundred dollars investment next to them.

Some of these people are gonna be complaining a lot harder when their neighbors/superiors gang up and CB them for being too poor a fit for the group. And considering they couldn't even be bothered to message someone, I feel that may be quite a few of them.

Gunnlang - 1 month ago
@Tyson:

Posted By Tyson at 10:54 AM - Fri Sep 13 2019

Is this really what people are complaining about? That the people above them want a heads-up before someone they don't know just appears in their county/duchy? These people are going to have to interact with each other and their neighbors on a fairly regular basis, I would think they would want to know something before committing a few hundred dollars investment next to them.

What about all the new people come launch? The hundreds or thousands of them? Should all those ask for your permission before starting the game? Do you feel that entitled? Or are you just a shitty leader that can't handle the randomness that people bring?

If any leader, can't wait until expo to get a feel for people and make threats/plan to destroy anyone not in their special little group. Well they are just outing themselves as a terrible leader that will be the first to get removed. Good luck meta gaming all those NPCs.

Also good luck thinking the NPCs will be on your side when you go around destroying anyone not in your group. The mechanics won't allow you to do that. But hey, it's going to be an awesome show to watch unfold.

Side note: I wonder if this will give the community a rep of being toxic wankers.

Leilah - 1 month ago
@Gunnlang:

@Gunnlang ^ nice

Malais - 1 month ago
@Gunnlang:

Posted By Gunnlang at 4:19 PM - Sun Sep 15 2019

Posted By Tyson at 10:54 AM - Fri Sep 13 2019

Is this really what people are complaining about? That the people above them want a heads-up before someone they don't know just appears in their county/duchy? These people are going to have to interact with each other and their neighbors on a fairly regular basis, I would think they would want to know something before committing a few hundred dollars investment next to them.

What about all the new people come launch? The hundreds or thousands of them? Should all those ask for your permission before starting the game? Do you feel that entitled? Or are you just a shitty leader that can't handle the randomness that people bring?

If any leader, can't wait until expo to get a feel for people and make threats/plan to destroy anyone not in their special little group. Well they are just outing themselves as a terrible leader that will be the first to get removed. Good luck meta gaming all those NPCs.

Also good luck thinking the NPCs will be on your side when you go around destroying anyone not in your group. The mechanics won't allow you to do that. But hey, it's going to be an awesome show to watch unfold.

Side note: I wonder if this will give the community a rep of being toxic wankers.

Typically Gunny I agree with most of your points and views but man you are way out there on this one.

If you are a count you likely have folks joining with you. A duke would like to know who the counts are under them so everyone works toward the same goal within the duchy. I liken it to in typical games a count is a guild leader, a duke is an alliance leader and the king is the head of a coalition of the faction. A leader of alliances as it were.

If you are the head of an alliance and some random guild drops in and decides to go left instead of right and ruins your plans wouldn’t you be slightly ticked?

In addition an added layer we have expo eventually. Expo is where the counts and the duke build up their territory based on what they all deem as the collective goal. Need a highway running from one end to the other would require each count along the route to build their section of highway through the points the adjoining counts end and begin their sections.

In short stopping by and saying heya I’m Malais and I plan on doing X. How can we all work together isn’t toxic.

Doing the exact opposite is.

Drudge - 1 month ago
@Tyson:

Posted By Tyson at 8:54 PM - Thu Sep 12 2019

Posted By Drudge at 6:20 PM - Thu Sep 12 2019

Posted By Tyson at 2:22 PM - Thu Sep 12 2019

Posted By Woogawoman at 1:14 PM - Thu Sep 12 2019

Calling anyone who hasn't spent a ton of time in DIscord a "random" does not seem like a good start to having a considerate, productive conversation.

As another "random," I would not expect hostility directed at me because I did what I am allowed to do when it is my turn - pick a settlement. If it is my turn, it is my turn.

I have always been more interested in choosing a specific tribe with a specific environment to support the activities I want to have in my settlement. To date, most kingdom web sites and discord channels have come across as very "Neran" in tone, with little detail on how they expect to adapt based on the actual makeup of their regions and the actual attributes of those tribes,

As such, I have not selected a kingdom (and duke, and count, and whatever). And, in my opinion, I should not have to. My investment in the game and my influence level dictate my place in the order, and I should not need to adjust my choice in order to ensure someone who is going after me gets their preferred spot based on out of game discussions.

Respectfully submitted.

A random is someone who picks without connection or even introduction to the local group. It can and often does take less than a day before being welcomed into a group if they have space.

The major issue seems to be people equating something being allowed with it being socially acceptable.

If you want to play the game without regard to the other players, that's fine, plenty of people will do that. But to expect them to say or do nothing in response?

Maybe they just figure that they will reach out to their neighbors a bit closer to release? Say 2021 or so? Not everyone wants to metagame for 4 years before a game comes out.

So introducing yourself to a community before dropping in is the same as multi-year metagaming? They don't need to meet some daily message and voice meeting quota, just a quick "hey whats up, can i join ya? this spot open? great! i'll check in on occasion and be more active when there's an actual game, thanks a bunch."

I've got a couple mayors I haven't heard from in 2 years but if they popped up in a town of mine i'd be cool with that because they at some point put literally the minimum effort in of messaging me beforehand.

Is this really what people are complaining about? That the people above them want a heads-up before someone they don't know just appears in their county/duchy? These people are going to have to interact with each other and their neighbors on a fairly regular basis, I would think they would want to know something before committing a few hundred dollars investment next to them.

Some of these people are gonna be complaining a lot harder when their neighbors/superiors gang up and CB them for being too poor a fit for the group. And considering they couldn't even be bothered to message someone, I feel that may be quite a few of them.

Yes. Unlike you, some people do not want to try and forge relationships 4 years before a game releases. Try to think of other perspectives. It's fine to do your Discord politics, but keep an open mind for people who are looking for something closer to when the game actually releases.

Ilyria - 1 month ago
@Drudge:

Posted By Drudge at 12:20 AM - Fri Sep 13 2019

Maybe they just figure that they will reach out to their neighbors a bit closer to release? Say 2021 or so? Not everyone wants to metagame for 4 years before a game comes out.

You're not realistic. That kingdom is a community. They make promises together to protect their assets and the kingdom. When a complete stranger comes in the neighborhood, who doesn't even bother to say hello, the community becomes insecure. That fort was promised to a trustee with soldiers. The new occupant doesn't talk, and nobody knows if he brings soldiers in or that he will rely on the NPC community only. Next to that, your friend, who had plans to trade stuff and craft stuff with you, suddenly has to live somewhere else. What is the new occupant gonna produce? Nobody knows, because he is not talking. I don't find it strange that the active community will do everything in their powers to get rid of the unknown stranger of whom they don't know what will do there. At first they do everything they can to get him to announce himself, but when that doesn't work, what else can they do.

I am against all that hostility, but I understand it completely. There are two sides on everything. And a random Count has spent much money on his position. He should do everything he can to secure his position for the long run.

Drudge - 1 month ago
@Ilyria:

Posted By Ilyria at 6:54 PM - Thu Sep 12 2019

Posted By Drudge at 12:20 AM - Fri Sep 13 2019

Maybe they just figure that they will reach out to their neighbors a bit closer to release? Say 2021 or so? Not everyone wants to metagame for 4 years before a game comes out.

You're not realistic. That kingdom is a community. They make promises together to protect their assets and the kingdom. When a complete stranger comes in the neighborhood, who doesn't even bother to say hello, the community becomes insecure. That fort was promised to a trustee with soldiers. The new occupant doesn't talk, and nobody knows if he brings soldiers in or that he will rely on the NPC community only. Next to that, your friend, who had plans to trade stuff and craft stuff with you, suddenly has to live somewhere else. What is the new occupant gonna produce? Nobody knows, because he is not talking. I don't find it strange that the active community will do everything in their powers to get rid of the unknown stranger of whom they don't know what will do there. At first they do everything they can to get him to announce himself, but when that doesn't work, what else can they do.

I am against all that hostility, but I understand it completely. There are two sides on everything. And a random Count has spent much money on his position. He should do everything he can to secure his position for the long run.

Caspian has said that today's players are just a tiny portion of those at release. Maybe 1%. People need to stop with the over-importance of stuff they are deciding on a forum years before launch.

Relax. Let the game be fun. Don't overreact. When stuff happens years from now, then react to it.

Tyson - 1 month ago

If someone claims a place without even reaching out the local group, they have demonstrated an unwillingness to do so little as send a message on either discord or this site.

In addition they will have claimed something of value to the group that may have been already called for among them. If the random does not reconcile with the cities and counties literally surrounding them, the in-game response would likely be to remove them even if only out of general principle. People losing and gaining titles for whatever reason is a planned part of the game, and this one is as good as any.

All the saber-rattling is an attempt to make this clear to the randoms smart enough to look before they jump and actually say something to someone. There are still plenty of people recruiting in the Domains and Organizations section of the forum.

The domain and governing aspect of this game is not singleplayer, the claims can and will negatively affect other peoples play experience and the value of the things they too have purchased.

People, absolutely, can pick whatever, wherever they want, that's how this whole thing works. It is, however, entitled and really dumb to think they won't get a lot of flak for messing with the local group in doing so. They paid too, in time if not always money.

Malkaven - 1 month ago
@Tyson:

Posted By Tyson at 11:58 PM - Wed Sep 11 2019

If someone claims a place without even reaching out the local group, they have demonstrated an unwillingness to do so little as send a message on either discord or this site.

In addition they will have claimed something of value to the group that may have been already called for among them. If the random does not reconcile with the cities and counties literally surrounding them, the in-game response would likely be to remove them even if only out of general principle. People losing and gaining titles for whatever reason is a planned part of the game, and this one is as good as any.

All the saber-rattling is an attempt to make this clear to the randoms smart enough to look before they jump and actually say something to someone. There are still plenty of people recruiting in the Domains and Organizations section of the forum.

The domain and governing aspect of this game is not singleplayer, the claims can and will negatively affect other peoples play experience and the value of the things they too have purchased.

People, absolutely, can pick whatever, wherever they want, that's how this whole thing works. It is, however, entitled and really dumb to think they won't get a lot of flak for messing with the local group in doing so. They paid too, in time if not always money.

I see that side of the argument. I'm not saying players like myself made the right choice or that no one has a right to work within the limits of the game to remove me. I'm not going to throw a tantrum if they do. Nor am I begging forgiveness. I'll play the game. Just wanted to explain my thought process at the time, because I don't think I'm the only one who might fall into that trap.

It isn't an easy thing to approach communities which on the surface may seem very hostile and uncooperative with outsiders. What I'd encountered before making my selection made it seem like there were no gentle harbors among the established groups and reaching out would be unproductive or even inviting harassment. Obviously that was a mistake on my part.

I am glad to be proven wrong (at least of some of the communities...). That gives me more hope for the future of the game as a whole. Threats I've seen against settlers during the auction phase and against settling in unwanted counties are very disappointing though. I at least glance at the forums occasionally, but not everyone will. Its those players I feel bad for.

I don't think most randoms are evil or out to destroy the plans of others. I think some of the hostility a portion of the grouped up players are putting out there stymies the very cooperation and respect for their plans they are trying to engender. Hopefully that can be overcome.

Xonth - 1 month ago
@Tyson:

Posted By Tyson at 9:58 PM - Wed Sep 11 2019

If someone claims a place without even reaching out the local group, they have demonstrated an unwillingness to do so little as send a message on either discord or this site.

In addition they will have claimed something of value to the group that may have been already called for among them. If the random does not reconcile with the cities and counties literally surrounding them, the in-game response would likely be to remove them even if only out of general principle. People losing and gaining titles for whatever reason is a planned part of the game, and this one is as good as any.

All the saber-rattling is an attempt to make this clear to the randoms smart enough to look before they jump and actually say something to someone. There are still plenty of people recruiting in the Domains and Organizations section of the forum.

The domain and governing aspect of this game is not singleplayer, the claims can and will negatively affect other peoples play experience and the value of the things they too have purchased.

People, absolutely, can pick whatever, wherever they want, that's how this whole thing works. It is, however, entitled and really dumb to think they won't get a lot of flak for messing with the local group in doing so. They paid too, in time if not always money.

I could not disagree with you more

Ilyria - 1 month ago
@Xonth:

Posted By Xonth at 07:11 AM - Thu Sep 12 2019

I could not disagree with you more

You don't have to agree on this, but it would be nice if you tell us why you disagree.

Marovec - 1 month ago

@malkaven

Sorry you got that impression, but I think you might also be missing something.

Communities have been open and accepting for over 2 years. For over 2 years, they have welcomed people in, talked with them, gamed with them, and planned with them - all to coordinate a solid gaming environment for the hundreds of people that are now trying to work together.

It wasn't until NOW, when the time has come to start trying to put plans to action, that some community leaders have drawn a line in the sand (if you can even call it that), and said "Hey, we have plans in our community, but if you still want to join, let us know and we can work something out".

Sure, it may suck if you chose to go two years without talking to the existing communities, getting to know anyone, or trying to plan something out.

That was your choice, and I think we all absolutely support that.

However, thousands of players, across dozens of communities, chose differently. What I am now seeing from you, and some others, is that the "needs of the one" outweigh the "needs of the many".

The good news is (unless you already picked) that there are still numerous communities willing to work with people. IF, despite everything, you choose to still "go it on your own", I support that choice...

But, it is your choice...just like any other. No better, or worse, than those thousands who chose not to go it alone.

Malkaven - 1 month ago

'Random' here.

It is disappointing to see how some of this community has developed. I was excited for the game and at first I thought it was great how seriously some players were taking the dance of dynasties. Now I see that it has become a toxic influence and wish it had been discouraged.

When I backed the Kickstarter I was signing up for the game, not a multi-year commitment to Discord/forum communities and strangers which might dissolve or disappear before COE is ever released (as has already happened multiple times). If I had known that was the expectation (else be subject to petty bullying and/or forced to give up choice and everything I backed for) I would not have backed in the first place!

I don't have bad intentions towards whomever ends up as a neighbor or superior, and I do plan to commit myself to my county and the players ruling over me (when there is a game!). I just don't have any desire to waste time on something which I do not gain any fulfillment or enjoyment from (purely forum/chat-based politics with no game to back them up). Nor do I feel it is my burden to invest a lot of time in researching other people's plans when they could just as easily have announced their intentions here on the forums where they are most visible and accessible rather than placing expectations upon everyone else.

Maybe I am entitled, but I just wanted to have fun and redeem the property I backed for during the window my influence earned me. The intention was never to ruin anyone else's game. And frankly, it chafes me that others seem to feel entitled to 'dibs' over those whose pick window comes before them. Why should your plans trump the hopes and plans of players who earned the right to pick before you just because they didn't feel like joining your social club this early on?

I fully anticipate consequences for my choice. If people want to attack me, so be it. I can’t stop you. I just think it’s sad, and will do my best not to make it easy for them. I’m not anyone’s enemy until you make me one, but then I’ll be an enemy indeed.

Leilah - 1 month ago
@Malkaven:

@Malkaven Well I have County and I am open for whom ever is looking for a home. contact me if you want more info or I will see you in game for whomever selected the village/hamlet in my county.

I don't believe in this asking permission to pick nor do I think we should have to reach out to anyone..I reached out to my Duke because I wanted to for my own reasons and not for asking for permission I did it because I wanted his/her feedback.

Kyleran - 1 month ago
@Malkaven:

Posted By Malkaven at 1:41 PM - Wed Sep 11 2019

'Random' here.

It is disappointing to see how some of this community has developed. I was excited for the game and at first I thought it was great how seriously some players were taking the dance of dynasties. Now I see that it has become a toxic influence and wish it had been discouraged.

When I backed the Kickstarter I was signing up for the game, not a multi-year commitment to Discord/forum communities and strangers which might dissolve or disappear before COE is ever released (as has already happened multiple times). If I had known that was the expectation (else be subject to petty bullying and/or forced to give up choice and everything I backed for) I would not have backed in the first place!

I don't have bad intentions towards whomever ends up as a neighbor or superior, and I do plan to commit myself to my county and the players ruling over me (when there is a game!). I just don't have any desire to waste time on something which I do not gain any fulfillment or enjoyment from (purely forum/chat-based politics with no game to back them up). Nor do I feel it is my burden to invest a lot of time in researching other people's plans when they could just as easily have announced their intentions here on the forums where they are most visible and accessible rather than placing expectations upon everyone else.

Maybe I am entitled, but I just wanted to have fun and redeem the property I backed for during the window my influence earned me. The intention was never to ruin anyone else's game. And frankly, it chafes me that others seem to feel entitled to 'dibs' over those whose pick window comes before them. Why should your plans trump the hopes and plans of players who earned the right to pick before you just because they didn't feel like joining your social club this early on?

I fully anticipate consequences for my choice. If people want to attack me, so be it. I can’t stop you. I just think it’s sad, and will do my best not to make it easy for them. I’m not anyone’s enemy until you make me one, but then I’ll be an enemy indeed.

Pro tip, succeeding in a title like this requires successful navigation of the meta game, in some ways more than any of your in game activites.

It's what you really bought into, the opportunity to "dance" long before the game releases, to ignore the opportunity courts disaster in the future.

Xefipor - 1 month ago
@Malkaven:

Posted By Malkaven at 12:41 PM - Wed Sep 11 2019

'Random' here.

It is disappointing to see how some of this community has developed. I was excited for the game and at first I thought it was great how seriously some players were taking the dance of dynasties. Now I see that it has become a toxic influence and wish it had been discouraged.

When I backed the Kickstarter I was signing up for the game, not a multi-year commitment to Discord/forum communities and strangers which might dissolve or disappear before COE is ever released (as has already happened multiple times). If I had known that was the expectation (else be subject to petty bullying and/or forced to give up choice and everything I backed for) I would not have backed in the first place!

I don't have bad intentions towards whomever ends up as a neighbor or superior, and I do plan to commit myself to my county and the players ruling over me (when there is a game!). I just don't have any desire to waste time on something which I do not gain any fulfillment or enjoyment from (purely forum/chat-based politics with no game to back them up). Nor do I feel it is my burden to invest a lot of time in researching other people's plans when they could just as easily have announced their intentions here on the forums where they are most visible and accessible rather than placing expectations upon everyone else.

Maybe I am entitled, but I just wanted to have fun and redeem the property I backed for during the window my influence earned me. The intention was never to ruin anyone else's game. And frankly, it chafes me that others seem to feel entitled to 'dibs' over those whose pick window comes before them. Why should your plans trump the hopes and plans of players who earned the right to pick before you just because they didn't feel like joining your social club this early on?

I fully anticipate consequences for my choice. If people want to attack me, so be it. I can’t stop you. I just think it’s sad, and will do my best not to make it easy for them. I’m not anyone’s enemy until you make me one, but then I’ll be an enemy indeed.

I understand your point... But, you obviously read the forums. So you have seen others post about the actions they wish to take towards randoms who place unannounced. So, you still are freely able to place where ever you wish. But at least you are informed on your choice. And it is not something that you will not be expecting.

Or, you could contact that community and see if you can find a compromise. I know my personal community have added last minute people into the mix. And, we even worked with each other to make sure everyone was able to get what they was looking for. And we did it by IP pick order. So it is not being suggested by all communities that you have to pick where they want you to. I think it is just being requested that you communicate with them so they can adjust plans around you.

But, I guess if you feel that you have no "commitment to Discord/forum communities and strangers". Then at least you now have the information from those communities who "announced their intentions here on the forums" for you.

So, feel free to place where ever your IP pick time lets you.

Malkaven - 1 month ago
@Xefipor:

Posted By Xefipor at 1:50 PM - Wed Sep 11 2019

I understand your point... But, you obviously read the forums. So you have seen others post about the actions they wish to take towards randoms who place unannounced. So, you still are freely able to place where ever you wish. But at least you are informed on your choice. And it is not something that you will not be expecting.

Or, you could contact that community and see if you can find a compromise. I know my personal community have added last minute people into the mix. And, we even worked with each other to make sure everyone was able to get what they was looking for. And we did it by IP pick order. So it is not being suggested by all communities that you have to pick where they want you to. I think it is just being requested that you communicate with them so they can adjust plans around you.

But, I guess if you feel that you have no "commitment to Discord/forum communities and strangers". Then at least you now have the information from those communities who "announced their intentions here on the forums" for you.

So, feel free to place where ever your IP pick time lets you.

Unfortunately the choice has already been made. When I scanned the forums beforehand the sentiments I encountered were predominantly hostile and unbending. That is part of the problem.

If I had felt community members would be welcoming or willing to provide a reasonable compromise I would have reached out. That isn't the impression the posts and comments I did see beforehand left me with. Instead the picture painted for me was a bunch of players brandishing pitchforks and chanting "Not one of us!", demanding that anyone not yet affiliated roll over and live off of their scraps in order to gain acceptance.

I'm not saying that is necessarily an accurate portrayal of the situation, just the perception the dialogue I saw created at the time. I have since seen more moderate opinions and I respect that. Sadly it comes too late.

If Dukes and Monarchs really are asking to be notified by randoms before finalizing their selection I haven't encountered that solicited here on the forums firsthand. I'm sure many randoms don't follow Discord. I really don't. That request doesn't seem to be very publicly visible on COE's forums. Maybe it should be.

Anyway, that's just my piece. Like I said, I'll accept the consequences of my choice as they come whether I agree with them or not. I accept that I was probably hasty, but the other side also bears some responsibility for the misunderstanding of their position if this was one.

Dekul - 1 month ago
@Malkaven:

Posted By Malkaven at 9:00 PM - Wed Sep 11 2019

If Dukes and Monarchs really are asking to be notified by randoms before finalizing their selection I haven't encountered that solicited here on the forums firsthand. I'm sure many randoms don't follow Discord. I really don't. That request doesn't seem to be very publicly visible on COE's forums. Maybe it should be.

They WERE rather visible in the main forums for each server... apparently too visible as SBS has since moved them into the smaller domain advertisement forums which do not show up in the feed. Despite the fact those threads would have normally been against the rules to post in those advertising forums...

evandarksky - 1 month ago
@Dekul:

Posted By Dekul at 3:02 PM - Thu Sep 12 2019

Posted By Malkaven at 9:00 PM - Wed Sep 11 2019

If Dukes and Monarchs really are asking to be notified by randoms before finalizing their selection I haven't encountered that solicited here on the forums firsthand. I'm sure many randoms don't follow Discord. I really don't. That request doesn't seem to be very publicly visible on COE's forums. Maybe it should be.

They WERE rather visible in the main forums for each server... apparently too visible as SBS has since moved them into the smaller domain advertisement forums which do not show up in the feed. Despite the fact those threads would have normally been against the rules to post in those advertising forums...

It'd have helped if those posts weren't so hostile and instead asked nicely rather than "We'll ruin your game and there's nothing you can do about it".

Dekul - 1 month ago
@evandarksky:

Posted By evandarksky at 3:09 PM - Thu Sep 12 2019

Posted By Dekul at 3:02 PM - Thu Sep 12 2019

Posted By Malkaven at 9:00 PM - Wed Sep 11 2019

If Dukes and Monarchs really are asking to be notified by randoms before finalizing their selection I haven't encountered that solicited here on the forums firsthand. I'm sure many randoms don't follow Discord. I really don't. That request doesn't seem to be very publicly visible on COE's forums. Maybe it should be.

They WERE rather visible in the main forums for each server... apparently too visible as SBS has since moved them into the smaller domain advertisement forums which do not show up in the feed. Despite the fact those threads would have normally been against the rules to post in those advertising forums...

It'd have helped if those posts weren't so hostile and instead asked nicely rather than "We'll ruin your game and there's nothing you can do about it".

They weren't all like that. My duchy asked nicely for people to come introduce themselves and said you'll be considered neutral if you don't... others outright said all are welcome. So, not like every community is the same.

mickdude2 - 1 month ago

Given that neither the Solaris Confederation post, nor the Vornair duchy posts have been taken down, we can therefore only assume these posts do not break the ToS.

Problem solved.

Sir Zyr - 1 month ago

No

On the other hand, is it so strange that randoms would like to pick their desired settlement, wherever it is, without harrassment or threats, implicit or otherwise?

It cuts both ways

Xefipor - 1 month ago
@Sir Zyr:

Posted By Sir Zyr at 02:42 AM - Tue Sep 10 2019

No

On the other hand, is it so strange that randoms would like to pick their desired settlement, wherever it is, without harrassment or threats, implicit or otherwise?

Nope.. Anyone can pick any settlement they wish to pick.. As long as they are willing to accept that others may feel the desire to play with different, more personal interest in mind. No one is telling anyone to not pick what or where ever they want. I think people are just trying to express their own opinions on their freedom as a member of the CoE community and backer. To be able to play the game how ever they feel, and with the communities they wish to play with.

Is this not the reason so many of us have spent our money on this game. Is it not that we all wish to play the game how we as individuals wish to play. I have always accepted that CoE is a growing changing world filled with many different people who play the game in many different ways. It is why I searched for a community that accepts me for who I am. It is why I have spent the past few years getting to know those persons who will be sharing my game space with me. I wanted to make sure that I can get the most enjoyable play experience for my money. I wanted to insure that I could comfortably play the game that I've spent money on in a play style that is accepted by my fellow community members.

I openly admit that I will not change my play style to fit within what someone else thinks that play style should be. I think it is best to inform everyone about that. And, allow them to make what they think is the best choice for them. So they can also have the most enjoyable gaming experience they can.

I mean.. in truth.. Is this not what we all have payed for.

Ilyria - 1 month ago
@Sir Zyr:

Posted By Sir Zyr at 09:42 AM - Tue Sep 10 2019

No

On the other hand, is it so strange that randoms would like to pick their desired settlement, wherever it is, without harrassment or threats, implicit or otherwise?

No, we should be nice to everybody, but a Fortress is something very specific. Even a King will watch closely who occupies the fortresses in the kingdom. Use common sense; A mayor is always welcome but a Baron is a trusted person to defend the Kingdom. I will do anything within my possibilities to get rid of a random (unknown) Baron. Harrassement is bad, and threats are not necessary. Since there is no possibility of moving to an other spot, it is better to wait for launch and stay calm.

Ilyria - 1 month ago

I have claimed my stake, but the Fortress next to me is promised to a friend. Who wouldn't want a friend in a fortress nearby? For some reason randoms really think they will get away with picking whatever they like. I want a friend as baron close to me. Is that so strange?

Gunnlang - 1 month ago
@Ilyria:

Posted By Ilyria at 5:28 PM - Tue Sep 10 2019

I have claimed my stake, but the Fortress next to me is promised to a friend. Who wouldn't want a friend in a fortress nearby? For some reason randoms really think they will get away with picking whatever they like. I want a friend as baron close to me. Is that so strange?

Just so you do understand, even if a random happens to pick a fortress, they are still a mayor. It's a duke that makes someone a baron. So while they would be harder to remove, if they ended up not being friendly. Not like you suddenly would lose a baron. Your mate may not be able to pick right next door to you. But with you funding them and your EP/their EP. Longterm, there shouldn't be a problem.

Conquistador - 1 month ago

That TOS didn’t age well.

As others have rightly pointed out, what’s more unfair is randoms not being forewarned before their placement. Then get ganked and quit shortly after release. But they won’t quit without a rage inducing message to the devs and public. A message that won’t be good for PR.

This is a game that brings out the worst in humans. A game on land, wealth and power. We’ve already seen history repeat itself as people want more and more than what they already have. More and more until they’re stopped or they collapse. Let the dance of dynasties prey on human flaws.

We’re all against cyberbullying but I think it’s within everybody’s right to warn against others from settling in pre selected counties. And to say what the consequences are if they do select these counties. That works for both parties. The random doesn’t lose their title to unrelenting “griefing” and players don’t quit because their first impression of the Elyrian community is that they’re toxic and uninvting.

Gunnlang - 1 month ago
@Conquistador:

Posted By Conquistador at 1:02 PM - Tue Sep 10 2019

We’re all against cyberbullying but I think it’s within everybody’s right to warn against others from settling in pre selected counties. And to say what the consequences are if they do select these counties. That works for both parties. The random doesn’t lose their title to unrelenting “griefing” and players don’t quit because their first impression of the Elyrian community is that they’re toxic and uninvting.

Because seeing discord/forums full of threads telling people to piss off, unless they wanna get killed. Doesn't have the same affect, to you? If that doesn't come across as toxic and uninviting, I don't know what you are meaning.

All these kingdoms are going to be too focus on their capitals and their shit sustainability. Than bother about destroying randoms anyway.

Xefipor - 1 month ago
@Gunnlang:

Posted By Gunnlang at 12:27 AM - Tue Sep 10 2019

Posted By Conquistador at 1:02 PM - Tue Sep 10 2019

We’re all against cyberbullying but I think it’s within everybody’s right to warn against others from settling in pre selected counties. And to say what the consequences are if they do select these counties. That works for both parties. The random doesn’t lose their title to unrelenting “griefing” and players don’t quit because their first impression of the Elyrian community is that they’re toxic and uninvting.

Because seeing discord/forums full of threads telling people to piss off, unless they wanna get killed. Doesn't have the same affect, to you? If that doesn't come across as toxic and uninviting, I don't know what you are meaning.

All these kingdoms are going to be too focus on their capitals and their shit sustainability. Than bother about destroying randoms anyway.

I get the feeling you are a little misunderstanding on how things are going work..

And, I don't think anyone has said.. Piss Off.. more of.. Hey.. please come communicate with us so we can make sure you are not disrupting years of planning.. Thank You.. PS.. if you don't we will throw stones at you.

Gunnlang - 1 month ago
@Xefipor:

Posted By Xefipor at 3:35 PM - Tue Sep 10 2019

I get the feeling you are a little misunderstanding on how things are going work..

And, I don't think anyone has said.. Piss Off.. more of.. Hey.. please come communicate with us so we can make sure you are not disrupting years of planning.. Thank You.. PS.. if you don't we will throw stones at you.

I get the feeling you don't understand it's how you are coming across. Maybe I'm taking things different. Asking people to take the shit that is leftover, that's laughable in the first place.

Pretty much every single community I have been apart of, has people that plan to kill randoms, that just drop in. So this isn't an attack on Vornair. This is how people view randoms.

Personally. I plan to use expo to scope people out. If they are really hostile? Let the fun begin. Higher chance, they just don't care for discord or even understand how to use it. You know, backed the game to play it. Not sit around on some 3rd party app for years.

Logain - 1 month ago
@Gunnlang:

Posted By Gunnlang at 08:45 AM - Tue Sep 10 2019

(...)I get the feeling you don't understand it's how you are coming across. Maybe I'm taking things different. Asking people to take the shit that is leftover, that's laughable in the first place(...)

I didn't want to post in this thread, but this has me curious if it's all a communication issue and people are misunderstanding the intentions of each other.

The way I understand the motivation behind the 'please communicate with us before placing'-posts is that the royal considers themselves to have the duty to act not in their best interest, but in the best interest of the people that are going to settle in 'their' territory. War and conflict is going to be inevitable for most sovereigns, which means that in order to protect your inhabitants, the key coordination positions must work well, or all effort is doomed from the beginning. A very basic and simple example would be the desire to have well versed 'PvP'-experienced counts/dukes at the borders of your duchy/kingdom, whereas the economically versed ones would be central.

I'm not going to argue on the meta/immersion sub-discussion in this thread, but we know that player skill (and character skill) is going to have a massive influence in CoE for basically all aspects (crafting, combat,...), including leadership of a territory. Now if a player places in a territory and doesn't even spend the effort to communicate with their future 'superior' first, isn't that a sign of a lack of dedication (and remember we have been told you'd need to invest several hours a week to manage your territory efficient).

This is why I don't really understand the 'card game'-metaphors, in poker you (should) play solo. In CoE as a count if you don't play with your duke and as a duke if you don't play with your monarch, it's hindering your superior at best and a sign of future uproar and separation at worst.

Squiddy_la_Femme - 1 month ago

It's nice to see things going again. Sucks to see all the backbiting and drama continuing that really kind of made me start to avoid the forums. I miss the "I'll help this happen at any cost!/Let's make this game awesome!/Stop being a jerk to the devs they're only human." That got me hooked in for a good chunk of personal money. There's some really awesome people I've met on here and it kind of sucks to come back and see very confusing divisions and so much hateful behavior. I hope we can find that spirit again someday. I hope that this very bringing it into fruition part of the game that's happening helps a little. I'm still very proud of this game and excited for all the things that's happening with it. Beautiful things take time. This is an art piece, a novel and a game that it's very hard to wait for. I'm happy to have invested what's ultimately, in the grand scheme of the actual needs of this game, my very paltry contribution. I'm happy to see this little thing that makes it just a bit closer to reality. Thanks SBS. I'm looking for your updates in my inbox even if I don't catch them in discord or the forums. I still can't wait to work with all of you in some form or fashion and hopefully get to witness it contribute to the tale you'll tell. Thank you to those, too, adding to the lore and stories that really make this game real. See you in Elyria!

Sazix - 1 month ago

Are you guys posting the Surnames, domains & settlement names as they get finalized?

Is there a running list of who owes what that can be seen? It would be nice to see the server being developed!

Kaynadin - 1 month ago

If we go down the whole what counts as meta and what does not, do we eventually hit the point where any action based on knowledge about the world or the game mechanics makes you a meta gamer? The moment you start making any choice based on any data your character wouldn't know, including setting up any filters to find a character that is a certain tribe or profession, would mean you're starting to meta game. You made a choice based on something the character wouldn't know about or be able to control themselves. I think you'd almost need to set up a game where everything was 100% random and you released no details about what kinds of skills or gameplay was in the game to truly have a meta free start and experience.

Athyrmose - 1 month ago
@Kaynadin:

We're all planning and playing the meta game at this moment. All of our conversations and interactions are a part of meta.

Malais - 1 month ago

@dada

I don’t completely understand your point perhaps there’s somewhat of a language or perhaps technical jargon gap there.

So let me ask you this.

If your lands are attacked by bandits should you send an ingame messenger to your local baron asking for help all the while your people lose their lives and goods and your town burns. Or would you hop on discord or other voice coms and let your friends/baron know what’s going on?

Another form of the question Would you use voice coms while questing since you’d be in earshot ingame if you were really walking with your companions or would you stick to typing even though it’s slower?

If sbs doesn’t expressly limit, or punish those who use out of game methods to communicate or gain an advantage it’s not against the rules is it?

Gorvikos - 1 month ago

I think a lot of people are missing the fact that as we get closer to a playable version of the game more outside eyes start following what is going on and when they see the community attacking each other/threatening to ruin someones game experience because of a choice they made prior the game being out brings a lot of negative attention and my turn away some people who were interested. Remember people perception is reality.

SamuelVimes - 1 month ago
@Gorvikos:

Posted By Gorvikos at 10:51 AM - Mon Sep 09 2019

I think a lot of people are missing the fact that as we get closer to a playable version of the game more outside eyes start following what is going on and when they see the community attacking each other/threatening to ruin someones game experience because of a choice they made prior the game being out brings a lot of negative attention and my turn away some people who were interested. Remember people perception is reality.

Actually what is being done by some is quite the opposite. We build a community like SBS said to do from the start. We played the dance. And up until this point the Dance has left us with out chosen partners. Now we face the real possibility of new people kicking those partners off the dance floor. What some have done is to tell them where people are currently dancing so that everyone can have a good play experience. You better believe that if someone displaces a friend who I had planned to play with that I am going to be quite upset. But if we didn't tell people where that friend is going to be placing, how can they possible know? This is the only fair to everyone way to do it.

Marrack - 1 month ago
@Gorvikos:

+1 to this.

Marovec - 1 month ago

@Dada

I get you don't like metagaming, some people don't.

But you seem to be saying that metagamers shouldn't be allowed in CoE, because they will "ruin it".

Rasigan - 1 month ago

Is it really possible to attack every random in your kingdom?

It takes time and resources to march armies into battle. It won't be easy, but might be doable.

Won't it be a better strategy to just go after the randoms with hostile intentions while reaching out and bringing in the ones that just want to play the game?

You can't expect everyone to reach out to your community before making their selection. I feel it is the communities duty to reach out to the randoms that may not reach out to you. Reach out to them does not mean saying "Even though you paid money you can't pick where ever you want because i have friends who might want those locations."

Instead, let them pick where they want to play. Then reach out and see if they are willing to incorporate with your community. if not, then take any hostile action against those that WILL NOT COOPERATE or follow your kingdom rules. feel free to advertise this course of action ahead of times on forms as has been happening.

Yes, this means some of the people in your community won't get the pick they thought they would get. But that's ok. It was always known that not all picks were guaranteed. Pick somewhere else, then see if you can attack or find any other way of getting the territory you want. Nothing wrong with advertising such intend ahead of time also.

If i could talk to every random, i would say to them: "It's your right to pick where ever your want. Reach out to the community and tell them you are willing to be part of their kingdom/duchy/etc. and follow their rules as best you can but you will not be told where to settle. You will be threatened. As long as it is to your in game character, its all ok. Know that those attacks may never come because the world is big and every player willing to cooperate at launch is an asset. However, brace for impact. You took the risk."

Final note to community leaders: Posting your threatening intentions (though you have the right to do so imo) will dissuade new comers from buying high level packages. This can only hurt CoE overall. Just because you have the right to do so, sometimes holding back and looking at the bigger picture and taking one for the team is a better course of action. That is my plea to you.

Dragash - 1 month ago

What are the expected betas/release dates?

dada - 1 month ago

It´s sad to look at. It seems many forgot or never realized, we were promised a sandbox to play together in immersively, didn´t we? If you meta the shit out of it, just to be the cooler community, i think, something is going wrong. At least for my understanding. Competition as "gamers", or immersion for "players"? The engine as digitalised Gamemaster for the pen&paper experience and playing along many fellow and stranger adventurers?

Persona system could have helped to sepreate the whole community united (and keep it somewhat reasonable) from the half-way-in-game part of what will be characters in a world. Where noone should even have formed a community from the start, i´m beginning to think. Just "characters" ending up together with, coming along or overthrow each other - to accompany or adverse.

Not spoiled brats from a perverted gameculture demanding ,now that they´re there, may play by their own rules, or everything exploitable, meta it, spoil one more game, because it´s hard to prevent to - just because it´s hard to programm rules for behaviour, if its missing in the individual anyway.

Not just in pen&paper, but also in some digital games is actual-"role"-playing a main funpart, not by talking funny, but trying to act as a role with limited knowledge, certain features and own story. The rules for these "role"-plays are often just enforced by social mechanics - respect them, or get lost. Now, it´s not so easy in this scale, but it may be thought about here. On the matter of what exectly should be seen as bullying and when it is banable, or if it have or shouldn´t be endorsed, i don´t want to state here.

Just indicating here my direction, don´t want to make it long. Just rethink and reboot the system.

Isn´t it ironic, that this social group building tends to be so asocial in a way?

Xefipor - 1 month ago
@dada:

Posted By dada at 11:42 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

It´s sad to look at. It seems many forgot or never realized, we were promised a sandbox to play together in immersively, didn´t we? If you meta the shit out of it, just to be the cooler community, i think, something is going wrong. At least for my understanding. Competition as "gamers", or immersion for "players"? The engine as digitalised Gamemaster for the pen&paper experience and playing along many fellow and stranger adventurers?

Persona system could have helped to sepreate the whole community united (and keep it somewhat reasonable) from the half-way-in-game part of what will be characters in a world. Where noone should even have formed a community from the start, i´m beginning to think. Just "characters" ending up together with, coming along or overthrow each other - to accompany or adverse.

Not spoiled brats from a perverted gameculture demanding ,now that they´re there, may play by their own rules, or everything exploitable, meta it, spoil one more game, because it´s hard to prevent to - just because it´s hard to programm rules for behaviour, if its missing in the individual anyway.

Not just in pen&paper, but also in some digital games is actual-"role"-playing a main funpart, not by talking funny, but trying to act as a role with limited knowledge, certain features and own story. The rules for these "role"-plays are often just enforced by social mechanics - respect them, or get lost. Now, it´s not so easy in this scale, but it may be thought about here. On the matter of what exectly should be seen as bullying and when it is banable, or if it have or shouldn´t be endorsed, i don´t want to state here.

Just indicating here my direction, don´t want to make it long. Just rethink and reboot the system.

Isn´t it ironic, that this social group building tends to be so asocial in a way?

So you are saying that a community of gamers who find enjoyment from meta gaming are not welcome in CoE. Because this game is not meant for them and not meant to be meta gamed?

You just told an entire community of like minded players they are not welcome. That they are "spoiled brats from a perverted game culture" and "The rules for these "role"-plays are often just enforced by social mechanics - respect them, or get lost."

I love how you are allowed to bully an entire gaming community. But, someone who expresses how they plan on reacting "in game" to someone who they feel will disrupt their community is frowned apon.

I guess it's ok, because you are trashing a community that, SBS is fine with people expressing negative remarks towards.

dada - 1 month ago
@Xefipor:

Posted By Xefipor at 07:19 AM - Mon Sep 09 2019

Posted By dada at 11:42 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

It´s sad to look at.

...

Just indicating here my direction, don´t want to make it long. Just rethink and reboot the system.

Isn´t it ironic, that this social group building tends to be so asocial in a way?

So you are saying that a community of gamers who find enjoyment from meta gaming are not welcome in CoE. Because this game is not meant for them and not meant to be meta gamed?

You just told an entire community of like minded players they are not welcome. That they are "spoiled brats from a perverted game culture" and "The rules for these "role"-plays are often just enforced by social mechanics - respect them, or get lost."

I love how you are allowed to bully an entire gaming community. But, someone who expresses how they plan on reacting "in game" to someone who they feel will disrupt their community is frowned apon.

I guess it's ok, because you are trashing a community that, SBS is fine with people expressing negative remarks towards.

I´m not sure you even tried to recognise my point, but you seemed to jumped on a different direction. I just bring in my voice and opionion to a matter i´m concerned with, not just recently, but what might have relations to this topic. I think, metagaming and immersion don´t go well together.

So, are you saying immersion-seeking players are not allowed to have it´s own game, without metagamers ruining it, because, again, it´s hard to prevent? Aren´t they allowed to have a place we´re they are welcomed and the kind of play they enjoy is respected?

You really think i, as a single guy, can "bully" a bigger group of people? I didn´t even went more specific as (meta-)"gamers". But alright. Are you sure, you know what bullying is? If one single guy critisizing a societal issue is bullying for you, you might want to reconsider what you are actualy talking about here. Why you took the "brat" as an insult for yourself. Or what your intend is?

I don´t say that anyone is not welcome. I say everyone is welcome to experience, discover and respect new or rather different ways of playstyles (remember: a mix of meta and immersion is, imo, not well possible). A playstyle which is, again, hard to set coded rules for, but which are ensured by the players themselfes. Metagamers on the other hand don´t seem to respect much, but violation of rules and games, just to compete.. or rather compensate?

Metagaming is like a locust-plague spreading all over, and immersive play is like a tiny flower, that needs to be groomed and protected.

Xefipor - 1 month ago
@dada:

Posted By dada at 08:25 AM - Mon Sep 09 2019

Posted By Xefipor at 07:19 AM - Mon Sep 09 2019

Posted By dada at 11:42 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

It´s sad to look at.

...

Just indicating here my direction, don´t want to make it long. Just rethink and reboot the system.

Isn´t it ironic, that this social group building tends to be so asocial in a way?

So you are saying that a community of gamers who find enjoyment from meta gaming are not welcome in CoE. Because this game is not meant for them and not meant to be meta gamed?

You just told an entire community of like minded players they are not welcome. That they are "spoiled brats from a perverted game culture" and "The rules for these "role"-plays are often just enforced by social mechanics - respect them, or get lost."

I love how you are allowed to bully an entire gaming community. But, someone who expresses how they plan on reacting "in game" to someone who they feel will disrupt their community is frowned apon.

I guess it's ok, because you are trashing a community that, SBS is fine with people expressing negative remarks towards.

I´m not sure you even tried to recognise my point, but you seemed to jumped on a different direction. I just bring in my voice and opionion to a matter i´m concerned with, not just recently, but what might have relations to this topic. I think, metagaming and immersion don´t go well together.

So, are you saying immersion-seeking players are not allowed to have it´s own game, without metagamers ruining it, because, again, it´s hard to prevent? Aren´t they allowed to have a place we´re they are welcomed and the kind of play they enjoy is respected?

You really think i, as a single guy, can "bully" a bigger group of people? I didn´t even went more specific as (meta-)"gamers". But alright. Are you sure, you know what bullying is? If one single guy critisizing a societal issue is bullying for you, you might want to reconsider what you are actualy talking about here. Why you took the "brat" as an insult for yourself. Or what your intend is?

I don´t say that anyone is not welcome. I say everyone is welcome to experience, discover and respect new or rather different ways of playstyles (remember: a mix of meta and immersion is, imo, not well possible). A playstyle which is, again, hard to set coded rules for, but which are ensured by the players themselfes. Metagamers on the other hand don´t seem to respect much, but violation of rules and games, just to compete.. or rather compensate?

Metagaming is like a locust-plague spreading all over, and immersive play is like a tiny flower, that needs to be groomed and protected.

Again, you present yourself in one light while still taking stabs at a community that plays differently than you.

So as you are saying "immersion-seeking players" should have "it´s own game". That meta gamers are not welcome into CoE. Because, you believe that the two play styles can not mix in one game. Again, you are saying that you do not welcome meta-gamers.

I have not seen anyone from the meta community tell anyone they are not welcome in CoE. If anything, i see members trying to protect their communities by offering people an understanding of what to expect if they join said community. And that, they may wish to look at other communities if they feel that they are a "tiny flower, that needs to be groomed and protected".

Hell, in many threads all that was asked was some communication before hand. So that the present community can work with them and a compromise could be met for new community members.

BTW... I am a meta gamer, I also play PnP DnD.. and I'm a role-player.. Just because I like to know everything that I can know about every system within a game. And, how to use those systems to the best of my ability. Does in no way say that I am not looking for an immersive game play experience. The SYSTEMS BEING CREATED, will work towards building that wall between what the player knows and what their toon knows. It is part of the in-game knowledge system.

Feel free to keep bashing on meta-gamers. From what I see you are trying to push a community out of a game that you have stated is only meant for "immersion-seeking players". And, like I said before.. This type of behavior is accepted by SBS, because it is directed towards a specific portion of the CoE community.

BTW.. I completely disagree with your opinion of the two play styles not being able to mix well.

dada - 1 month ago
@Xefipor:

Posted By Xefipor at 4:44 PM - Mon Sep 09 2019

Posted By dada at 08:25 AM - Mon Sep 09 2019

Posted By Xefipor at 07:19 AM - Mon Sep 09 2019

Posted By dada at 11:42 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

It´s sad to look at.

...

Just indicating here my direction, don´t want to make it long. Just rethink and reboot the system.

Isn´t it ironic, that this social group building tends to be so asocial in a way?

So you are saying ...

I´m not sure you even tried to recognise my point, but you seemed to jumped on a different direction. ... I don´t say that anyone is not welcome. I say everyone is welcome to experience, discover and respect new or rather different ways of playstyles ... Metagamers on the other hand don´t seem to respect much, but violation of rules and games, just to compete.. or rather compensate?

Metagaming is like a locust-plague spreading all over, and immersive play is like a tiny flower, that needs to be groomed and protected.

Again, you present yourself in one light while still taking stabs at a community that plays differently than you.

... you are saying that you do not welcome meta-gamers.

I have not seen anyone from the meta community tell anyone they are not welcome in CoE. ...

Hell, in many threads all that was asked was some communication before hand. So that the present community can work with them and a compromise could be met for new community members.

BTW... I am a meta gamer, I also play PnP DnD.. and I'm a role-player.. Just because I like to know everything that I can know about every system within a game. And, how to use those systems to the best of my ability. Does in no way say that I am not looking for an immersive game play experience. Anyway, The SYSTEMS BEING CREATED, will work towards building that wall between what the player knows and what their toon knows. It is part of the in-game knowledge system.

Feel free to keep bashing on meta-gamers. From what I see you are trying to push a community out of a game that you have stated is only meant for "immersion-seeking players".

BTW.. I completely disagree with your opinion of the two play styles not being able to mix well.

Your posts seem quite polemic to me. I don´t bash nore do i push out someone. As if i could..

I´m criticising the playstyle of metagaming (which includes for example "how to use those systems to the best of my ability" in a way of exploit every not code.ly prevented way) to be destructive in a way, that by it´s nature don´t care about much else than maximising it´s own competition. So if one do metagaming, one don´t have to care about how others would like to play, because of it´s all-exploiting nature. Ofc, one who uses metagaming don´t have much reason to not let other playstyles exist there. That, and because it´s hard to evade, is the crux why metagaming is that prevalent in the gaming-landscape. It´s kind of a standard, "non-metas" have a hard time to evade. And that is why i rephrased your ".. a community of gamers who find enjoyment from meta gaming are not welcome.." question into "..are you saying immersion-seeking players are not allowed to have it´s own game, without metagamers ruining it..".

Maybe you will be able to understand my point, why meta- /"powergaming" is a curse to immersive- /"role"-playing, if you try to follow my concern there - without me putting it up again.

Pen&Paper is not immune to meta-/powergaming, btw. The term "roleplay" is often understood as a stats and asset-progression system, a class(functional role) one plays, and such. But i want to refer to it here as the immersion-diving experience. Just for clarification.

I don´t stated much here about the "communication first" debate. But i think, this heated up debate and emotional "meta-"community and financial investment, is to a certain degree a problem of extracting the game into the physicalworld, without some lines to seperate it.

Last but not least, there are some mechanics promised, which aim to deepen the immersiveness of the game. The knowledge system, is a codeable rule and might be just one more part to foster that. If it would be just about metagaming we wouldn´t need a lot stuff here.

Again, i, and likely some other immersion-seekers, are barely able to evade the immersion-destroying metagaming, due to it´s nature. I think,

Metagaming is the opposite of immersion. It´s extraction.

SQiRL - 1 month ago

I agree here with @SamuelVimes I would think this is more of a service of letting people making informed decisions rather than blind ones.

How this could be considered bullying because its not in game yet is beyond me.

if i spent 1k on a title, and i had been afk, or if i recently upgraded, these kinds of posts would let me know if i was about to do something not smart with my purchase.

I would much rather know what the kingdom/dukes/fellow counts stance is before i did something. Now, if i was doing it simply for maliciousness, sure, i would argue that im being bullied and blah blah blah in order to garner sympathy against the host nation. Thats just trolling 101. unfortunately, this seems to be whats happening here for the most part.

This game is full of meta gaming and sadly, this part of the game is no different. The devs want/expect combat/pvp/hostilities, but when a group advertises that somebody might not wanna make a bad decision then thats a violation of the rules?

What does it matter if a group tells somebody in advance if you disrupt us, we will take your land/title/tavern or what ever. Caspain from the very beginning told us that we need to accept the fact that we will lose things in this game. I see this as no different and more of a caveat emptor to the person placing.

Octavio - 1 month ago

Could've been avoided if you let the kings, dukes, and counts reserve all the spots in their domains if they had a real person with the proper title to put in there. If they didn't have real people or people with the correct title to take the duchy or county than they can't complain when someone picks it. Doesn't resolve the issue completely, but it could've helped.

Please bear in mind that people have spent more than 3 years building a community with the idea of that community being able to play together. The ability for random people to come in and mess that up can screw with the community that was built.

Neurotoxin - 1 month ago
@Octavio:

Posted By Octavio at 1:18 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Please bear in mind that people have spent more than 3 years building a community with the idea of that community being able to play together. The ability for random people to come in and mess that up can screw with the community that was built.

I don't see how someone claiming land nearby means you can't play as a community. It just means you won't control that particular territory, but there's still plenty of land and opportunities for a substantial size of group (like a few hundred people) to play together in one area. Who knows if you are going to effectively use all that land anyway, and that it wouldn't be better for someone else outside the group to own and maintain that land? How about trying to get those outsiders to join your community?

Neurotoxin - 1 month ago

TBH... if you are in a casino yelling at staff and threatening management, there's a good chance they'll take your chips and throw you out on your ass. You have no recourse that will lead to playing another game of Texas Hold'em there, unless you don a convincing disguise, and are okay with people not knowing you at the $1000 tables because you can only do the $10 tables now.

Celebrate being here instead. This game is a part of history, this is the flagship of a new genre, but that means everything is being invented along the way. We have no historical reference of D&SS in any game ever, for the scope and scale of what CoE aims to be. It is difficult and expensive to invent this stuff, and because it isn't an established paradigm we can reference for the best methods, that experimentation is going to rub people the wrong way because their expectation was set by their interpretation of a reality that had not had a chance to exist yet.

I agree that things done in-character should be done in-character. DSS isn't happening in-character, believe it or not. The end of DSS will give us a virtual snapshot of a living, breathing world that already existed before we got there. There is no point to threatening someone over their prospective or locked-in choices, consider that you've had hostility with their region since before DSS existed. Then if you want to loop that back to in-character, state something like "As many lands are in flux right now, I recognize that the leadership of _ is of particular concern. There are two heirs being considered, one which is favorable to my people, and one who we vehemently oppose due to an existing blood feud. Lets us hope, for the sake of the citizens of _, that they choose a leader who we won't need to slay or usurp as a matter of priority."

Krakonz - 1 month ago

Make a pvp game and expect everyone to join hands and sing "We are the World" smh

Kaynadin - 1 month ago

It's a bit late for that now. The only way to have avoided drama around pick location would have been to have people pick without the map. Just list out names of places and the associated resources and such without mentioning the biome or location. But that system would upset people for a whole new reason if they definitely wanted a specific biome or general location and ended up elsewhere.

Xefipor - 1 month ago

Like I stated before... We must disband all communities so that no one feels displaced.

Discord and Forums should be shut down until after DSS is over so that no community engagement can happen until after everyone has placed.

Only way to resolve the issue is to remove the ability of people to do any more community building within SBS until after claims are done.

Marovec - 1 month ago

@Kaynadin

I think you bring up a good point (as others have as well).

People have been making out of game "threats" via in game action for as long as people have been talking about this game.

Suddenly, this is unacceptable.

However, without clarification as to what his post was actually talking about (or if it even referred to the posts by some of the Dukes regarding community intent at all, since Caspian said he hadn't read them when he made that post), we don't know the actual "line in the sand".

Again, I don't think anyone is lobbying that SBS be "ok" with people DMing and threatening targeted behavior to another specific person.

However, IMO, people are lumping general statements of community intent with individual threats, as though they are the same thing.

As others have pointed out, it's the difference between:

  • "Bob, if I see you on my property, I will shoot you."

and

  • "Trespassers will be shot on sight."

One is a specific threat, one is a warning. The semantics are actually relevant here.

What I suspect is that there are people who don't like what the Dukes said, and are using Caspian's post as a new "moral ground" argument to defend their point of view. Odds are, they aren't actually related. But, again, we don't know for sure.

Fergus Redbeard - 1 month ago

Reading this thread makes me think of Heath Ledger's Joker

https://giphy.com/gifs/joker-batman-heath-ledger-YPIrsRqqO7oB2

TheVisad - 1 month ago

Seems to be a bit of doublespeak that's allowed. I mean these two statements right here would then violate this and the second is a direct attack on myself. Yet nothing was done. I even came and made a direct statement of complaint to a senior community member/dev regarding the second post and nothing was done. Either stand firm for every single member of the community or stop talking out both sides of your mouths regarding standards.

[1:02 PM] Duke Mythos Cardan ᚠ🐺: If you do choose to land in Fehu you are persona non grata in Vornair, all assets on my disposal and who ever else wants to prey on you will have my blessing.

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/32714/good-luck?page=3#post363966

Mythos Cardan - 1 month ago
@TheVisad:

Posted By TheVisad at 09:01 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Vye at

Hail and well met, Elyrians!

With Domain & Settlement Selection in full swing, and with the Settlers of Elyria Dutch-style auction coming up, it brings with it an entirely new phase to the Dance of Dynasties. Let's talk about what it is, what's already happened, and what to expect as we continue through to the next phase.

The Dance

Simply put, the Dance of Dynasties is the great political game of favors, alliances, and power played by lords and ladies and the highly ambitious. Political intrigue abounds when you play the game and the only way to win is to play. If you are a titled landowner, you're in the game already! When the nations of Elyria vie for dominance - whether through diplomacy, economy, or warfare - it is part of the Dance. When assassination plots and marriages are arranged, it's part of the Dance. When heirs are named and lineages ended, it's part of the Dance. When favor is given or owed, it is part of the Dance.

Chronicles of Elyria is a world where there is more to do than hunt monsters and get loot (but you can always go pursue the life of an Adventurer if that's what you're after!). There are layers to the gameplay that take place at the individual level, community level, governmental level, and world level. At each level, there is danger and drama. Heroic effort, skill, and the power of one's reputation will be the difference between survival and an early death! At every level!

The Dynasties

Domain & Settlement Selection, and the auction following it, mean that titled players are now real landowners in Elyria. Each one is a Dynasty waiting to thrive. Each one a potential threat or ally to another. Though people have been plotting and planning for months or years, it's hasn't been tangible or real until now. Now is when the Dance truly begins!

As this community continues through these events, and the lands meted out to players with an interest in governance, the members of each Kingdom, Duchy, and County will become its own roster of what are, in a way, guild members (as in the more traditional concept of a guild in an MMO): a group of players who are signing up to work on specific in-game goals together and who benefit from the size and quality of the collective. While there isn't raiding or grinding dungeons for rare loot in Chronicle of Elyria, there are plenty of objectives that will take large numbers of people coming together to coordinate and achieve a desired outcome. For characters who hold titles and lands, these might come in the form of the Sedecim, a royal wedding, or a conquest into neighboring lands.

Though there are communities that have already cropped up in the Forums and on Discord based on the promise of a great nation, no nations have previously existed. That's all changing, now that claims are being made on the lands of the starting continents.

While folks may instinctively cling to the communities to which they've already become a part, the relationships created thus far will not be enough to play the game. Much like in Texas Hold 'Em poker, you have some cards you were dealt (your own lands, your liege, other allies), but those alone are not sufficient to win. Only with the community cards that are played randomly on the table can you assemble a winning hand - just as it will be when unclaimed duchies, counties, and settlements will be picked up by new or newly-upgrading players! Don't think of those members who join your domain now as intruding on what you already have. Instead, think of them as the missing cards to an otherwise incomplete set.

Names and places are being written into the Chronicles as we speak. The final shape (in both borders and citizenry) for each kingdom, duchy, county, and settlement is still being penned. Old allies and new faces are being joined together in a way no other online game has attempted. By the time the ink is dry, a swath of land-bound communities will be able to begin playing the Dance together and preparing for the road ahead.

The Future

Each Kingdom, Duchy, and County is a grouping of duchies, counties, and settlements that are owned by real people who all share an interest in the more gubernatorial and political elements that Chronicles of Elyria has to offer. Though many found a community to join or swore allegiance to a liege before (unofficially), claiming land on the Elyrian map is the true and official way that Soulbound Studios always intended for these communities to be founded. The Dance of Dynasties is no longer a voluntary interest - it has officially begun!

As we continue toward launch, each set of liege and vassals will be able to plan and prepare for these planned events:

Alpha 1

During the first part of Alpha, those with access will be playing an early version of the game and providing feedback. The features planned in Alpha 1 are primarily around the plight of the individual. No governmental features will be in, so it will be the interest of titled landowners to pay attention to the quality of the natural environment, the architecture and arrangement of settlements, the Contract system, and the Knowledge and Gossip systems. All of these areas will be of import when it comes to supporting the economy and citizenry at a national scale.

Alpha 2

In the second part of Alpha, the land management features will be coming into play. While the characters and events that are experienced in Alpha (and Beta) are not going to be written into the Chronicles, this is the time to really put those systems through their paces to ensure that Chronicles of Elyria is the real deal, and provides title-holders the ability to rule the lands of Elyria in a whole variety of ways!

Kingdoms of Elyria

When Kingdoms of Elyria opens up, the scribes will be picking up their quills and recording the events. By this time, the features that support both individual advancement and gubernatorial play will have been tested, validated, iterated, and approved for elements of the real game to begin. Those communities that are just forming their roster of members through land selection now will be able to put their plans into play in Elyria's pre-launch history. Taking the reins of one's nation or settlement as one's ancestors, the conquests, alliances, treaties, and more that arise from gameplay during Kingdoms of Elyria will modify the starting circumstances of each title-holder once Exposition begins.

Exposition

Finally, in Exposition, the stage is set and anyone with access is invited into Elyria to give it its final shape. New buildings, new roads, new characters, and more will be popping up as Exposition Points are used to buy special Exposition Kits and Items. Don't like the primary industry of your settlement? Change it to another one that you have the resources for. Wish you had more Blacksmiths? Add more workshops with forges. Need to turn a small dock into a commercial harbor? Magically poof one into existence like it had always been there! Exposition is when vanilla Elyria is customized by players. On launch day, new players will be joining a world forged by Soulbound Studios and molded by your hand!

In Summary

The Dance of Dynasties, which started early on the forums and in Discord, is now a tangible part of Elyria because the promised nations are becoming official. We're going to see a lot of new names around, so please welcome these newcomers with the same enthusiasm that initially drew you into the community. Help catch them up on the wealth of information and help them navigate the Domain & Settlement Selection and Settlers of Elyria Events. More players, more landowners, is only going to make Chronicles of Elyria a better, more dynamic, and dramatic world in which to play in.

With the increase of activity in the forums and on Discord, please remember our Terms of Use and Code of Conduct. The Dance of Dynasties is a strictly in-character part of Chronicles of Elyria and we can't abide harassment or abuse to real people (just to the characters you intend to play in game, which isn't personal). It's easy to get excited and think about ways to take the Dance into the real world, but remember that the Dance of Dynasties is something you play to win, and Earth 1.0 doesn't have any win conditions so you'd probably get an error anyway.

We're very excited, here in the studio, to watch you play the Dance and see the shape of the world over the next few months. You all owe it to yourselves to enjoy it, too, and join in with us in raising a glass to the true beginning of the eternal Dance and the unwritten future of Elyria!

Pledged to Your Continued Adventures in Life, Both Actual and Fantasy,

Vye

Seems to be a bit of doublespeak that's allowed. I mean these two statements right here would then violate this and the second is a direct attack on myself. Yet nothing was done. I even came and made a direct statement of complaint to a senior community member/dev regarding the second post and nothing was done. Either stand firm for every single member of the community or stop talking out both sides of your mouths regarding standards.

[1:02 PM] Duke Mythos Cardan ᚠ🐺: If you do choose to land in Fehu you are persona non grata in Vornair, all assets on my disposal and who ever else wants to prey on you will have my blessing.

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/32714/good-luck?page=3#post363966

Visad I wish you luck in your new Kingdom, I hope it would be much better fit than Fehu and Vornair. Comment I made that you choose to quote is direct answer to your threat of placing in my Duchy and causing “problems” for my community. Personally I don’t mind if you do and I politely informed you what outcome of that decision will be.

Since you brought this to public, I kicked you because simply you were not a type of person I want among my counts, it will be petty if I list the litany of reasons why I decided to kick you. It’s not that you wanted to place among your friends in Brodweal, it’s that you thought it’s fine not telling anyone in Vornair that was your desire and then offering to spill “secrets” of that kingdom to us once you were kicked. Personally anyone who knows me knows I don’t care about drama or secrets any kingdom especially Brodweal has. Simple reality is what happens there has absolutely no significance at present to me. Hugs and kisses Vis, relax , chill and step away from drama.

Mythos

Maddonach - 1 month ago
@Mythos Cardan:

Posted By Mythos Cardan at 12:47 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Visad I wish you luck in your new Kingdom, I hope it would be much better fit than Fehu and Vornair. Comment I made that you choose to quote is direct answer to your threat of placing in my Duchy and causing “problems” for my community. Personally I don’t mind if you do and I politely informed you what outcome of that decision will be.

Since you brought this to public, I kicked you because simply you were not a type of person I want among my counts, it will be petty if I list the litany of reasons why I decided to kick you. It’s not that you wanted to place among your friends in Brodweal, it’s that you thought it’s fine not telling anyone in Vornair that was your desire and then offering to spill “secrets” of that kingdom to us once you were kicked. Personally anyone who knows me knows I don’t care about drama or secrets any kingdom especially Brodweal has. Simple reality is what happens there has absolutely no significance at present to me. Hugs and kisses Vis, relax , chill and step away from drama.

Mythos

Going out of your way to purposefully incorrectly spell Bordweall as Brodweal, two times mind you, is pretty petty in itself.

TheVisad - 1 month ago
@Mythos Cardan:

Posted By Mythos Cardan at 12:47 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Seems to be a bit of doublespeak that's allowed. I mean these two statements right here would then violate this and the second is a direct attack on myself. Yet nothing was done. I even came and made a direct statement of complaint to a senior community member/dev regarding the second post and nothing was done. Either stand firm for every single member of the community or stop talking out both sides of your mouths regarding standards.

[1:02 PM] Duke Mythos Cardan ᚠ🐺: If you do choose to land in Fehu you are persona non grata in Vornair, all assets on my disposal and who ever else wants to prey on you will have my blessing.

https://chroniclesofelyria.com/forum/topic/32714/good-luck?page=3#post363966

Visad I wish you luck in your new Kingdom, I hope it would be much better fit than Fehu and Vornair. Comment I made that you choose to quote is direct answer to your threat of placing in my Duchy and causing “problems” for my community. Personally I don’t mind if you do and I politely informed you what outcome of that decision will be.

Since you brought this to public, I kicked you because simply you were not a type of person I want among my counts, it will be petty if I list the litany of reasons why I decided to kick you. It’s not that you wanted to place among your friends in Brodweal, it’s that you thought it’s fine not telling anyone in Vornair that was your desire and then offering to spill “secrets” of that kingdom to us once you were kicked. Personally anyone who knows me knows I don’t care about drama or secrets any kingdom especially Brodweal has. Simple reality is what happens there has absolutely no significance at present to me. Hugs and kisses Vis, relax , chill and step away from drama.

Mythos

Ahh Mythos, good luck to you and yours as well, seriously I hope you guys succeed in whatever plans you have, whatever those random plans may be. As far as making it public, I have people of that community publicly attacking me since that day and is the only reason I am speaking out now. I have been quiet about it until now except to those who needed to know. I have done nothing except get kicked out of the community that is now attacking me.

As I have stated many times, the only thing that ensued was talk with a friend (Count Santana) about plans we made 3 years ago when this all started. Feel free to spout off whatever nonsense will make you sleep better at night, whatever you feel you "needed" to kick someone from your community for, say what you need to. Hell tell all here in a public forum what was so wrong about me that you had to remove me. I was very infrequently online in the past year and when I was I was always attempting to engage the community in team building experiences. I pledge my fealty to my Duke and my King, give zero back talk and support whatever measures ensure the greater good for all of the Duchy and community members. I mean anyone who knows me, knows I go out of my way to ensure that members of the community have opportunities to engage in building experiences. Steam key giveaways, private game servers spun up for the community, humble bundle key giveaways, things that provide community better involvement. I am sorry if you feel like I betrayed you or whatever it is you think I did, but at the end of the day I simply had a conversation with a friend and you exploded over it and then started threatening me regarding this. You escalated it past the point where it became a personal vendetta, before 24 hours had even passed since my initial conversation. I had zero conversation with you because it was simply talk between two friends and at that point amounted to nothing more then that.

So feel free to say what you need to, what you want to, I do not care any longer. You are no longer my community, you are no longer my Duke. You can feel any way you personally feel, it's your right. You had my respect until the moment you blew up on me, I have the whole conversation saved, it's a fun read. If you could like, I could make it public and everyone can read the lovely conversation we had. Who in their right mind would want to stay in a community that fostered that kind of experience, period. I have talked to people who know you and guess what, no one is surprised. Enjoy the game, I know I will with the new plans I have made and the renewed vigor actually being betrayed by someone who I thought was a friend has given me.

V

Mapkeeper - 1 month ago

It's strange, the store doesn't seem to let you buy Alpha 1 access...

Faustes - 1 month ago

See my issue here Is isn't it a good idea to welcome in people with high Ip? The higher in the pick order the better it is for the person directly above them if they can gain the random's support, if you're a Duke and some one gets edged out of your community because of someone else's placement shouldn't you be happy to gain the resources this person brings?

Why really are people threatening the shadow counts and dukes, My guess is that some threats have already been made against others to force place high level shadows and others and use them as spies and usurpers. This means many Dukes now fear nobles and aristocrats they haven't talked to before because they're afraid that they'll get a knife in the back from a puppet lord in their domain.

I see these threats as a sign of a greater problem which is pregame meta battling using real life people as pawns and if we don't stop doing this kind of thing the community will tear itself apart before we even reach launch day. Certain Toxic members of our community have been given a pass in the name of drama for stirring up trouble and basically bullying people out side of role-play or in-game context.

Target people who are stirring up drama against other people out side of game if you want people to stop fearing random placements. That fear of the randoms is partially stemming from a deeper problem, it's a symptom not a disease in and of itself. Also there are many dukes telling long standing member of their communities that they need to leave because they're too big and won't fit, or that they have changed their minds on including them in the community over someone else are these evictions not also considered tampering with personal choice and harassment since they're being told that if they stay they'll have their domains taken?

Morbis - 1 month ago
@Faustes:

Posted By Faustes at 1:56 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

See my issue here Is isn't it a good idea to welcome in people with high Ip? The higher in the pick order the better it is for the person directly above them if they can gain the random's support, if you're a Duke and some one gets edged out of your community because of someone else's placement shouldn't you be happy to gain the resources this person brings?

It seems rather myopic to only determine the value of an individual based on their wallet size, no?

Faustes - 1 month ago
@Morbis:

Posted By Morbis at 05:59 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Faustes at 1:56 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

See my issue here Is isn't it a good idea to welcome in people with high Ip? The higher in the pick order the better it is for the person directly above them if they can gain the random's support, if you're a Duke and some one gets edged out of your community because of someone else's placement shouldn't you be happy to gain the resources this person brings?

It seems rather myopic to only determine the value of an individual based on their wallet size, no?

It may also be myopic to declare some one with potentially valuable assets to be your enemy just because a few plans got mildly ruffled. Most plans and play styles don't really rely on any one location in Coe, most counties or locations can be adapted or improved so even if a person's first pick is displaced it doesn't mean that they will always be short on what they need to play the game the way they want to. I highly doubt there is enough players to fill all the duchies, counties, and settlements there are in the game.

But if a person wants to play a specific tribe and location and the dukes controlling that region are hostile to them placing in even though they may be better than the existing community in every way. isn't that rather unfair to them since for the longest time no one was actually certain where anyone was going to end up?

I'm for Encouraging communication not shutting out valuable players for stroking over inflated egos of people who had the luck of deciding ahead of time the people out of game they want to be loyal to instead of the peoples in game they wish to be loyal to.

Drudge - 1 month ago

I guess I am confused by this. I read articles on multiple gaming sites about the Dukes who were splitting from Kairos and making their own Confederation. Based on the timing it would seem that story was actively pushed by SBS to these news sites as PR.

What about all the players that want to stay in Kairos? Is this not ultimately using out of game means like, Discord, Forums and even external gaming sites to threaten those players? Saying that 2/3 or 3/4 of the Community is splintering off is an implicit threat to the 1/4 or 1/3 that are not supposedly threatening to destroy Kairos from day 1.

This seems like SBS has created very arbitrary rules and even violates them themselves if in fact they pushed this story to news sites. There is nothing different about Dukes saying they will attack 7 randoms who claim land in their Dutchies and Dukes saying they are going to band together and destroy Kairos on day 1 and thus ruining the game for those that do not want to leave.

SBS please be consistent.

NightTarot - 1 month ago
@Drudge:

Posted By Drudge at 05:23 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

SBS please be consistent.

SbS isn't refering to that though? they're refering to the recent duke posts on random count pickers, not the ducal succession from kairos

Drudge - 1 month ago
@NightTarot:

Posted By NightTarot at 08:38 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Drudge at 05:23 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

SBS please be consistent.

SbS isn't refering to that though? they're refering to the recent duke posts on random count pickers, not the ducal succession from kairos

Which is exactly why they are inconsistent. There are other players in Kairos who are having their plans threatened by these Dukes. Either we can use Forums, Discord etc... to threaten (revolt) or we cannot.

Morbis - 1 month ago
@NightTarot:

Posted By NightTarot at 1:38 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Drudge at 05:23 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

SBS please be consistent.

SbS isn't refering to that though? they're refering to the recent duke posts on random count pickers, not the ducal succession from kairos

Drudge's point is that Caspians reply could easily be applied to the Kairos situation. The Solaris Confederations stated intent is to split from Kairos. They have said that though they are willing to do so peacefully, they will enforce that split with violent action.

According to the arguments of some in this thread (though I haven't seen you make it), they do not have any real right to be doing that yet. After all, they do not yet have access to the personas of the characters they intend to commit to this split with.

They are metagaming, and broadcasting a public threat against those who might otherwise have wanted a playstyle involving a whole and unbroken K6.

(And to be clear, Caspian said last night in Discord that he had not read the posts from the Dukes in question, that he stepped into this particular drama llama only based on the replies to this thread)

Drudge - 1 month ago
@Morbis:

Posted By Morbis at 08:41 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By NightTarot at 1:38 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Drudge at 05:23 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

SBS please be consistent.

SbS isn't refering to that though? they're refering to the recent duke posts on random count pickers, not the ducal succession from kairos

Drudge's point is that Caspians reply could easily be applied to the Kairos situation. The Solaris Confederations stated intent is to split from Kairos. They have said that though they are willing to do so peacefully, they will enforce that split with violent action.

According to the arguments of some in this thread (though I haven't seen you make it), they do not have any real right to be doing that yet. After all, they do not yet have access to the personas of the characters they intend to commit to this split with.

They are metagaming, and broadcasting a public threat against those who might otherwise have wanted a playstyle involving a whole and unbroken K6.

(And to be clear, Caspian said last night in Discord that he had not read the posts from the Dukes in question, that he stepped into this particular drama llama only based on the replies to this thread)

Yes, exactly this. Those Dukes are threatening the selection of others who wanted and planned to place in an unbroken Kingdom. And it is fine for Caspian to weigh in but he must be consistent. If this is his rule then there should be no discussion about breaking up Kingdoms and revolting while people are still claiming their land. Those are clear threats as well.

Kaynadin - 1 month ago
@Drudge:

Posted By Drudge at 09:51 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Morbis at 08:41 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By NightTarot at 1:38 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Drudge at 05:23 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

SBS please be consistent.

SbS isn't refering to that though? they're refering to the recent duke posts on random count pickers, not the ducal succession from kairos

Drudge's point is that Caspians reply could easily be applied to the Kairos situation. The Solaris Confederations stated intent is to split from Kairos. They have said that though they are willing to do so peacefully, they will enforce that split with violent action.

According to the arguments of some in this thread (though I haven't seen you make it), they do not have any real right to be doing that yet. After all, they do not yet have access to the personas of the characters they intend to commit to this split with.

They are metagaming, and broadcasting a public threat against those who might otherwise have wanted a playstyle involving a whole and unbroken K6.

(And to be clear, Caspian said last night in Discord that he had not read the posts from the Dukes in question, that he stepped into this particular drama llama only based on the replies to this thread)

Yes, exactly this. Those Dukes are threatening the selection of others who wanted and planned to place in an unbroken Kingdom. And it is fine for Caspian to weigh in but he must be consistent. If this is his rule then there should be no discussion about breaking up Kingdoms and revolting while people are still claiming their land. Those are clear threats as well.

As are the threats to overthrow "corrupt" monarchs made by various people here over the years. It seems that the stance may be that people are allowed to threaten the plans of those above them but not those below. Which is silly IMO.

Drudge - 1 month ago
@Kaynadin:

Posted By Kaynadin at 11:30 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Drudge at 09:51 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Morbis at 08:41 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By NightTarot at 1:38 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Drudge at 05:23 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

SBS please be consistent.

SbS isn't refering to that though? they're refering to the recent duke posts on random count pickers, not the ducal succession from kairos

Drudge's point is that Caspians reply could easily be applied to the Kairos situation. The Solaris Confederations stated intent is to split from Kairos. They have said that though they are willing to do so peacefully, they will enforce that split with violent action.

According to the arguments of some in this thread (though I haven't seen you make it), they do not have any real right to be doing that yet. After all, they do not yet have access to the personas of the characters they intend to commit to this split with.

They are metagaming, and broadcasting a public threat against those who might otherwise have wanted a playstyle involving a whole and unbroken K6.

(And to be clear, Caspian said last night in Discord that he had not read the posts from the Dukes in question, that he stepped into this particular drama llama only based on the replies to this thread)

Yes, exactly this. Those Dukes are threatening the selection of others who wanted and planned to place in an unbroken Kingdom. And it is fine for Caspian to weigh in but he must be consistent. If this is his rule then there should be no discussion about breaking up Kingdoms and revolting while people are still claiming their land. Those are clear threats as well.

As are the threats to overthrow "corrupt" monarchs made by various people here over the years. It seems that the stance may be that people are allowed to threaten the plans of those above them but not those below. Which is silly IMO.

I agree. And it's not just a threat to the Monarch but also to anyone else in the Kingdom not aligned with the rebels. They are going to tear the Kingdom apart. To be honest, I see no problem with what these Dukes are doing. I would even say it has been encouraged by SbS over the years as part of the Dance of Dynasties. But you cannot have different rules for different people.

Faustes - 1 month ago

So What I'm getting out of the community is that they think individualized targeted threats and intentionally targeting individual players should be against terms of service.

But also that blanket declaration against people joining you with out at least making themselves known to the group of people who already have plans might be misguided but not unreasonable.

What I get from the studio is that they don't want people trying to influence other people's picks at this juncture.

But what about people like my Duke he's made no threats concerning placement. He has only stated that he wants to help avoid friction by discussing who wants what and mediating compromises. He is doing this so that everyone has a chance at their top choices and priorities, This way they can all have rich in-game experiences that meet their goals but also keep our friendly in-duchy atmosphere. Is he violating terms of service too?

NightTarot - 1 month ago
@Faustes:

Posted By Faustes at 02:53 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Is he violating terms of service too?

:/ ...? I think you're not seeing the dukes who are making people feel unwelcome in the CoE community with their aggressive stance on randoms

Adam made a very reasonable and diplomatic post regarding random picks, and then one of his dukes quoted the entire the thing in their own post with the little addition "yeah, like this but better, if you place here we'll kill you"

I'm happy you have a reasonable duke, but the side-effect of these openly hostile posts have made me, a mayor who just wants to pick a hamlet in an unclaimed county (don't want to be a count) feel scared about my own pick, I don't want to lose my title because everyone else in that duchy decided to work against me before the game even started

its literally ruining my excitement for this game :( and I'm sure others, Count, Mayor and even Gentry, feel the same

Morbis - 1 month ago
@NightTarot:

Posted By NightTarot at 12:05 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

its literally ruining my excitement for this game :( and I'm sure others, Count, Mayor and even Gentry, feel the same

Would you have rather not known their stance, picked in their territory, and suffered those consequences regardless? Or did their post let you know that as someone who hasn't reached out and joined their community, you might want to look elsewhere?

Gunnlang - 1 month ago
@Morbis:

Posted By Morbis at 9:21 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Would you have rather not known their stance, picked in their territory, and suffered those consequences regardless? Or did their post let you know that as someone who hasn't reached out and joined their community, you might want to look elsewhere?

Why can't people be open to randoms? What's going to happen when thousands of new people come in at launch? All start setting up their own little groups. Will you crush them on sight? Because they are competing against your own community?

Does your community/communities in general that take this stance even want to play an open world game? Because it honestly come across like you just wanna play within your little group and honestly fuck the rest of the playerbase. Basically punishing players because they didn't find out about the game at the same time as you did.

Honestly the best memories I have within MMOs. Is a bunch of randoms coming together, to do anything. Be that questing/instances etc. Everyone being friendly and open with one another. Parts of this community is doing the opposite. They are closed off and just flat out hostile. As I said in my first post, this isn't anything new. Parts of the community have been toxic for awhile. DSS is just putting the light on them.

To answer your question. I doubt anyone placing near unknown people thought they would instantly get along fine. But I doubt they would think people would be planning their death for years before the game even launched, like some petty immature kids. Personally I dislike all this crap that happens on discord and communities are punishing people that don't get involved in it.

In a perfect world. We would just go into expo with a neutral mindset. Dealing and judging with people via their actions in game. Not judging them on discord or not being on discord. At least this community is finally showing their true colours. So that's a plus in my mind.

Desdark - 1 month ago
@Morbis:

Posted By Morbis at 08:21 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Would you have rather not known their stance, picked in their territory, and suffered those consequences regardless? Or did their post let you know that as someone who hasn't reached out and joined their community, you might want to look elsewhere?

So harassing players is ok cause you will, in game, carry the actions?

Morbis - 1 month ago
@Desdark:

Posted By Desdark at 12:29 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Morbis at 08:21 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Would you have rather not known their stance, picked in their territory, and suffered those consequences regardless? Or did their post let you know that as someone who hasn't reached out and joined their community, you might want to look elsewhere?

So harassing players is ok cause you will, in game, carry the actions?

Harassing individual players? No. Making blanket statements of intent? Yes.

I see no difference in making a statement on taxation, or foreign policy.

I'm curious, if I made a post that said "I intend to tax anyone who places within my territory upwards of 80% of their production", would you have a similar reaction?

Both stating aggressive intent against random players who do not forewarn the community they are placing into, and stating an outrageously high rate of taxation are in effect threatening the playstyle of individual players.

Is the latter harassment? If not, why not?

Desdark - 1 month ago
@Morbis:

Posted By Morbis at 08:33 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

I'm curious, if I made a post that said "I intend to tax anyone who places within my territory upwards of 80% of their production", would you have a similar reaction?

During SS? Yes.

I think the DSS is like voting and SBS wish to ''protect'' the moment..even if a random will "dumb blind pick", People are ''free to fail'' without harassing. Its a personel choice and now we know SBS wish to protect the ''personal'' trait of the choice. Its not a character choice..its a personal choice.

NightTarot - 1 month ago
@Morbis:

Posted By Morbis at 04:28 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

If it's that much of a concern to you, what has stopped you from reaching out to those people who hold the titles of the locations that you are interested in, and asking their position?

I have, for one kingdom so far, applied to Valyria through the website linked their forum post and that hasn't seen any response at all

I have another area I would like to pick in Tyria, but honestly at this point, I'm overwhelmed by the stress of this whole thing that I'm scared of getting rejected, I want to be Neran in the middle section of the continent, and I don't want to be rejected by both kingdoms and lose my top picks, fucking hamlets

Posted By Morbis at 04:33 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

I'm curious, if I made a post that said "I intend to tax anyone who places within my territory upwards of 80% of their production", would you have a similar reaction?

yeah except that's better than literally guaranteeing that they will lose their title if they join your duchy

ShadowTani - 1 month ago
@NightTarot:

Posted By NightTarot at 1:36 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

I have, for one kingdom so far, applied to Valyria through the website linked their forum post and that hasn't seen any response at all

Valyria is a special case though, every other Kingdom can be reached easily through Discord... And even if Valyria were to reach out and accept your placement you would probably not be invited into their inner circle. As a kingdom they are particularly seclusive... And not without reasons. So expect yourself to be like a chess piece more than anything else.

Either way, if you can't see yourself in any other location then you might have better luck making contact with whatever duchy is in that location, some of them have discords. You would probably have much less stress with your Tyria option though.

Faustes - 1 month ago
@NightTarot:

Posted By NightTarot at 04:36 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Morbis at 04:28 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

If it's that much of a concern to you, what has stopped you from reaching out to those people who hold the titles of the locations that you are interested in, and asking their position?

I have, for one kingdom so far, applied to Valyria through the website linked their forum post and that hasn't seen any response at all

I have another area I would like to pick in Tyria, but honestly at this point, I'm overwhelmed by the stress of this whole thing that I'm scared of getting rejected, I want to be Neran in the middle section of the continent, and I don't want to be rejected by both kingdoms and lose my top picks, fucking hamlets

Posted By Morbis at 04:33 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

I'm curious, if I made a post that said "I intend to tax anyone who places within my territory upwards of 80% of their production", would you have a similar reaction?

yeah except that's better than literally guaranteeing that they will lose their title if they join your duchy

I know this is not the place to recruit but if you want into the grasslands my duke Is in that area and is more than willing to take in loyal mayors. We may even have a few good towns to spare by the end of count week, So come socialize with us and see if you want to stay. Also Tyria as a whole is very Welcoming and not likely to shun people for coming in "late" I mean you're here before Expo, be reasonably polite and I don't think we'd care.

Morbis - 1 month ago
@NightTarot:

Posted By NightTarot at 12:36 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

I'm curious, if I made a post that said "I intend to tax anyone who places within my territory upwards of 80% of their production", would you have a similar reaction?

yeah except that's better than literally guaranteeing that they will lose their title if they join your duchy

Except the latter does the exact same thing. You understand that any policy position put forth by a government has the inherent threat of violence against those who refuse to abide by it, right?

Taxation is violence. You don't pay your taxes, you'll be removed from your title, or imprisoned.

The enforcement of social standards is violence. You don't abide, you are removed from the social group.

Hell, even laws against violence are inherently enforced through threats of violence. You commit violent acts, and the state will come and use their superior firepower to show you why that is a bad idea.

NightTarot - 1 month ago
@Morbis:

Posted By Morbis at 04:41 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Except the latter does the exact same thing. You understand that any policy position put forth by a government has the inherent threat of violence against those who refuse to abide by it, right?

yeah and when taxes are set so high, who will the NPC's view as the bad guy? not the poor soul doing their best to abide by them and failing

Taxation is violence. You don't pay your taxes, you'll be removed from your title, or imprisoned.

The enforcement of social standards is violence. You don't abide, you are removed from the social group.

Hell, even laws against violence are inherently enforced through threats of violence. You commit violent acts, and the state will come and use their superior firepower to show you why that is a bad idea.

Okay, except random picks are not inherently violent :/

Morbis - 1 month ago
@NightTarot:

Okay, except random picks are not inherently violent :/

Unless in placing their titles, they disrupt the planned placements of an existing group. Whether you like it or not, that is an (extremely minor) violent act. You may disagree with that communities 'right' to say "This is ours, we don't want you here", but that's kind of what tends to happen in politically driven games; people form ingroups.

>Why can't people be open to randoms? What's going to happen when thousands of new people come in at launch? All start setting up their own little groups. Will you crush them on sight? Because they are competing against your own community?

You are throwing out a red herring, I guess in the hopes that people won't notice and will just let the strawman slide?

Can you please point me to any post where I have said that I intend to treat random players, not Counts, but players, aggressively? Because you won't find out, because that would be stupid.

I appreciate being able to have a civil discussion about this topic, but please stop putting words in my mouth. It's been happening for almost four days now and it's becoming exceedingly frustrating.

Desdark - 1 month ago
@Morbis:

Posted By Morbis at 08:49 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Can you please point me to any post where I have said that I intend to treat random players, not Counts, but players, aggressively? Because you won't find out, because that would be stupid.

We have no personas/char, only titles and some have domains.

People without domains and personas can only do personal acts at this moment, off rp.

The selection is a personal act. Its the player, not the persona.

"If you pick'' cant be a character treat cause only the player can pick a domain.

Morbis - 1 month ago
@Desdark:

Posted By Desdark at 12:58 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

We have no personas/char, only titles and some have domains.

People without domains and personas can only do personal acts at this moment, off rp.

The selection is a personal act. Its the player, not the persona.

"If you pick'' cant be a character treat cause only the player can pick a domain.

And I guess this is where the conversation breaks down, because this is where the axiomatic incompatibility lies.

Like many other people, I do not separate the actions of the player and the character. I do not believe that the average person is capable of compartmentalizing their mind to such a degree that the actions of their characters are not indicative of the wants of the player.

Again, like many other people, I guess you do. That character action is somehow intrinsically disconnected from the player controlling them.

That isn't a stance that I can take, and, evidently, my stance isn't one that you can, either.

And so we will continue tilting at windmills, over and over.

Crysta - 1 month ago
@Morbis:

If you roleplay, you certainly are capable of compartmentalizing to that extent. It literally requires you to, unless you just play self-inserts. Character wants are not necessarily player wants.

Morbis - 1 month ago
@Crysta:

Posted By Crysta at 1:12 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

If you roleplay, you certainly are capable of compartmentalizing to that extent. It literally requires you to, unless you just play self-inserts. Character wants are not necessarily player wants.

I would agree, in the far more cooperative environment of table top roleplaying, it is a lot easier for people to shift their mindset into one that allows them to do just that.

We aren't dealing with a cooperative tabletop environment here. If anything, my experience in tabletop RP has shown me that as soon as real competitive action starts to occur, with real consequences, players have a strong tendency to start self inserting.

In my opinion it is why the majority of tables choose to prohibit PvP in their games.

Crysta - 1 month ago
@Morbis:

Posted By Morbis at 05:20 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Crysta at 1:12 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

If you roleplay, you certainly are capable of compartmentalizing to that extent. It literally requires you to, unless you just play self-inserts. Character wants are not necessarily player wants.

I would agree, in the far more cooperative environment of table top roleplaying, it is a lot easier for people to shift their mindset into one that allows them to do just that.

We aren't dealing with a cooperative tabletop environment here. If anything, my experience in tabletop RP has shown me that as soon as real competitive action starts to occur, with real consequences, players have a strong tendency to start self inserting.

In my opinion it is why the majority of tables choose to prohibit PvP in their games.

Roleplay isn't a requirement, but most communities seem to be aiming for a collaborative roleplay environment. Including yours, if the thread is any indication.

So going "this is hopeless, I simply can't compartmentalize that well!" strikes me as exceptionally weird if you're going to be actively masquerading as a fantasy duke.

Desdark - 1 month ago
@Morbis:

Posted By Morbis at 09:20 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

In my opinion it is why the majority of tables choose to prohibit PvP in their games.

Fun fact, i love Battlestar Galactica. Cylon card = happy day.

And i totally expect betrayal and loss inside my community/county.

Desdark - 1 month ago
@Morbis:

Posted By Morbis at 09:05 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Desdark at 12:58 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

We have no personas/char, only titles and some have domains.

People without domains and personas can only do personal acts at this moment, off rp.

The selection is a personal act. Its the player, not the persona.

"If you pick'' cant be a character treat cause only the player can pick a domain.

And I guess this is where the conversation breaks down, because this is where the axiomatic incompatibility lies.

Like many other people, I do not separate the actions of the player and the character. I do not believe that the average person is capable of compartmentalizing their mind to such a degree that the actions of their characters are not indicative of the wants of the player.

Again, like many other people, I guess you do. That character action is somehow intrinsically disconnected from the player controlling them.

That isn't a stance that I can take, and, evidently, my stance isn't one that you can, either.

And so we will continue tilting at windmills, over and over.

Ok, now i understand your point.

Gunnlang - 1 month ago
@Morbis:

Posted By Morbis at 9:49 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Can you please point me to any post where I have said that I intend to treat random players, not Counts, but players, aggressively? Because you won't find out, because that would be stupid.

True enough. I didn't think anyone was stupid enough to come out saying they even plan to kill counts on sight, on a public forum. But your kingdom proved me wrong on that point. So is it really a stretch to think they will be killing any randoms on sight?

Morbis - 1 month ago
@Gunnlang:

Posted By Gunnlang at 12:55 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Morbis at 9:49 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Can you please point me to any post where I have said that I intend to treat random players, not Counts, but players, aggressively? Because you won't find out, because that would be stupid.

True enough. I didn't think anyone was stupid enough to come out saying they even plan to kill counts on sight, on a public forum. But your kingdom proved me wrong on that point. So is it really a stretch to think they will be killing any randoms on sight?

When in doubt, just make up what the other side is talking about. Gotcha. At least we've set the standard for discourse.

NightTarot - 1 month ago
@Morbis:

Posted By Morbis at 04:21 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By NightTarot at 12:05 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

its literally ruining my excitement for this game :( and I'm sure others, Count, Mayor and even Gentry, feel the same

Would you have rather not known their stance, picked in their territory, and suffered those consequences regardless? Or did their post let you know that as someone who hasn't reached out and joined their community, you might want to look elsewhere?

I would rather they properly used their reservation space and not whip out their big di-... title to scare away people in order to compensate for their entire duchy

unless every duke addresses their personal stance here on the forums I will be scared to pick in their domain as I've said

someone correct me if I'm wrong and link me the posts, but I'm in angelica and I haven't seen any of those posts or posts addressing their stance on random picks from dukes on angelica, which doesn't bring me comfort, opposite actually

Morbis - 1 month ago
@NightTarot:

Posted By NightTarot at 12:27 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

someone correct me if I'm wrong and link me the posts, but I'm in angelica and I haven't seen any of those posts or posts addressing their stance on random picks from dukes on angelica, which doesn't bring me comfort, opposite actually

If it's that much of a concern to you, what has stopped you from reaching out to those people who hold the titles of the locations that you are interested in, and asking their position?

Nid - 1 month ago

I think the heart of the question is primarily about where the line is. In my opinion, warning unannounced claimers that the community will work against them in-game if they pick before they announce themselves is entirely fair.
However, telling a newly announced player that they can't pick their first choice because someone with a lower pick wants it and they've been around longer is unfair.
The real thing we should be against are people who want to control the pick order.

"Then what's the difference if they don't announce themselves?" you may ask.
A player who isn't interested in communication joining a community that thrives on it is immediately going to be a bad fit, and the Noble in charge of their community has an in-game reason to use in-game force to diminish that person in-game. That seems to be a fair line to me.

If someone with a high pick order comes in a day before they pick and tells you that they've only now decided where they're going to be, it's on you as a community leader to re-organize your people, integrate the new person as well as you can, and accept that this was always how this game was going to be.
Some people are indecisive, that's how it goes.
If a Noble at the head of a community attempts to control where a late-announcer can pick, they're really just encouraging them not to communicate in the first place.

Adam Burrfoot - 1 month ago
@Nid:

Posted By Nid at 02:54 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

I think the heart of the question is primarily about where the line is. In my opinion, warning unannounced claimers that the community will work against them in-game if they pick before they announce themselves is entirely fair.
However, telling a newly announced player that they can't pick their first choice because someone with a lower pick wants it and they've been around longer is unfair.
The real thing we should be against are people who want to control the pick order.

"Then what's the difference if they don't announce themselves?" you may ask.
A player who isn't interested in communication joining a community that thrives on it is immediately going to be a bad fit, and the Noble in charge of their community has an in-game reason to use in-game force to diminish that person in-game. That seems to be a fair line to me.

If someone with a high pick order comes in a day before they pick and tells you that they've only now decided where they're going to be, it's on you as a community leader to re-organize your people, integrate the new person as well as you can, and accept that this was always how this game was going to be.
Some people are indecisive, that's how it goes.
If a Noble at the head of a community attempts to control where a late-announcer can pick, they're really just encouraging them not to communicate in the first place.

That is pretty fair and reasonable, to an extent. I am not the type to dictate how another community should choose to handle things in their domain. At the end of the day if a Duke wants to go murder hobo on a higher IP count that displaced one of their buddies they have every right to do it and say they are going to do it. However, they also have the right to the in-game consequences that follow. IE Loss of NPC support, potential loss of support from other randoms, potential loss of support from some of their current community members looking to capitalize on the lack of support from the other areas to advance themselves. Etc and so forth. These are all in-game repercussions that are up to the players and the mechanics to sort out, not to an arbitrary TOS / out of game over-moderation.

Leave it to the players to sort out.

Unless it is legit harassment that has always been against the TOS / CoC and it occurs in a CoE controlled and enforcable environment. Blanket statements setting expectations for how an individual or a community intends to play the game is not harassment.

Nid - 1 month ago
@Adam Burrfoot:

Leave it to the players to sort out.

Unless it is legit harassment that has always been against the TOS / CoC and it occurs in a CoE controlled and enforcable environment. Blanket statements setting expectations for how an individual or a community intends to play the game is not harassment.

I certainly agree that what most people would consider "real-life coercion" ought to be immediate grounds for a ban and legal action if applicable.

Adam Burrfoot - 1 month ago
@Nid:

Posted By Nid at 03:03 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Leave it to the players to sort out.

Unless it is legit harassment that has always been against the TOS / CoC and it occurs in a CoE controlled and enforcable environment. Blanket statements setting expectations for how an individual or a community intends to play the game is not harassment.

I certainly agree that what most people would consider "real-life coercion" ought to be immediate grounds for a ban and legal action if applicable.

100% agree.

Adam Burrfoot - 1 month ago

Also wasnt there a time during map voting when a certain Monarch threatened to take lands that someone else wanted if they didnt get the map they wanted? Was that against TOS? Because at the time that was specifically identified as "The Dance".

The hipocracy is tangible here. Extremely tangible. If you are seriously saying "Just dont say it, nothing wrong with doing it in game just dont say it." Its literally setting a bad precedent for how you handle things. It is literally saying "Being forthright and transparent with people about how you are planning to play in your domain is against TOS.". Since when is setting the example of being transparent and forthright as being a bad thing something we as a society let alone as a community should be supportive of?

Now if you are saying "We wont tolerate you going into the DMs of someone in Discord and screeching at them with harassment and threats non-stop." that I can completely get behind. However, historically the studio has taken the position that they Cannot and Will not enforce things that do not happen either on their site, in their game, or in their studio discord. The DMs of people have tried to be used to show TOS and CoC issues a number of times before for things MUCH worse than in game threats. Real life threats, real life DOXXING, etc and so forth have been brought to the studio before and gotten the same answer "We cant enforce anything there, it didnt happen on one of our controlled mediums." or "Screenshots can be doctored.". Therefore I dont see how this can be enforce-able by the studio, where as those cases couldnt.

As it relates to this subject, these are in-game related declarations and people showing the cards they have and playing Texas Hold-em face up which is totally their prerogative to do and totally their right to do as players just as its players right to keep their cards close to their chest. Let the players choose how the players are going to play that game instead of getting the studio involved. This is a player enforceable problem. If the majority of players in that area, or a group of players want to say "You know what Morbis's declaration was stupid and I am going to rain on his parade." then they have every right to do so. If a group of players want to say "You know Morbis is scary and I am going to avoid his area." then they have every right to do so.

Basic jidst and moral of the story is simple. Either clarify your statement on what is actually a ban-able offense as it relates to "threats made of the in-game variety" or suffer the confusion caused by a lack of properly thought out, researched, and measured statements.

Adam Burrfoot - 1 month ago

As an aspiring noble who's lands this guy might be in I feel like my game play experience is going to be ruined by this person because I want a completely lawful County and never want to worry about my taxes being stolen from me!

Clearly this is a threat and it is bullying and I dont feel comfortable placing my county down until I know for sure this person will not be there, even though they could spawn into my county any time they want to really via ingame mechanics....

^ is that against TOS? ;-)

Medeiros - 1 month ago

this is all oof

Xefipor - 1 month ago

The only real solution for this is for everyone to disband their communities they have made until after D&SS.

This way, no mater who places where. No one has a community they feel the need to have to protect.

We all know that non of this community building was meant to happen until we got the persona system in place anyways.

Nienori - 1 month ago
@Xefipor:

Just because SBS didn't expect this to happen doesn't mean that it was unreasonable. I think it was a little naive of SBS to not foresee this happening.

Vucar - 1 month ago

Posted By Caspian at 1:48 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

And in case there's any question, threatening, intimidating, or harassing other players, or in any way communicating that you intend to make their play experience poorer as a result of their D&SS pick is not the Dance of Dynasties. That's simply bullying and is viewed as a violation of our ToS and CoC.

"The ones that came over here and started this thing. They never got mad. They just smile & nod & make sure you get it later"

Fergus Redbeard - 1 month ago

Death is coming and he rides a pale horse. No one will escape his embrace...

Granted....his chosen name may have been rejected by devs so I'm not sure what he will be known by in game....and we don't even know if there will be pale horses....but he's coming just the same. No one gets out alive!

Beathan - 1 month ago
@Fergus Redbeard:

Posted By Fergus Redbeard at 9:43 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Death is coming and he rides a pale horse. No one will escape his embrace...

Granted....his chosen name may have been rejected by devs so I'm not sure what he will be known by in game....and we don't even know if there will be pale horses....but he's coming just the same. No one gets out alive!

De’Ath is coming on an offwhite otterbear.

Fergus Redbeard - 1 month ago
@Beathan:

Posted By Beathan at 11:45 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Fergus Redbeard at 9:43 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Death is coming and he rides a pale horse. No one will escape his embrace...

Granted....his chosen name may have been rejected by devs so I'm not sure what he will be known by in game....and we don't even know if there will be pale horses....but he's coming just the same. No one gets out alive!

De’Ath is coming on an offwhite otterbear.

That's a piece of art I would pay to own!!

Fergus Redbeard - 1 month ago

Don't talk about

Don't post about it.

It's best served cold....

It's best when the count logs in to find their crops on fire, the NPCs slain and the county seat surround by several armies flying the colors of neighboring counties.

When the soldier breaks in the door and walks toward the noble with his brandished axe, the count will beg for mercy and ask why...

Don't say a word....just finish him/or her.

That's basically how I was introduced to Ark... Level 1 killed by a level 148 TRex while I was naked and afraid staring up at the blue sky for the first time. Harsh lesson taught me to log in running and not to stop. Words and idle threats would have never communicated that any clearer!

Sir Zyr - 1 month ago

Indirect and general threats (which they were) are still threats...

Beathan - 1 month ago
@Sir Zyr:

Posted By Sir Zyr at 9:34 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Indirect and general threats (which they were) are still threats...

Ok. What if I say that, in my county, we will punish thieves severely. Is that a threat because someone might want to play as a thief? Surely that can’t be right.

Mind, I think the hostility to randoms is misguided. I also hope that randoms band together for mutual defense to make the hostility harder in practice than in theory. But I don’t see how a general statement of domain policy is a threat under the TOS as written (and I am a Washington attorney and it is a Washington legal document). If that is what SBS has in mind, they need to rewrite that section of the TOS. But it is not what they should have in mind.

That is my opinion reading the TOS, of which only the “Code of Conduct” section seems applicable (and nothing in the conduct link on the forums seems applicable at all).

Sir Zyr - 1 month ago
@Beathan:

Posted By Beathan at 9:39 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Sir Zyr at 9:34 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Indirect and general threats (which they were) are still threats...

Ok. What if I say that, in my county, we will punish thieves severely. Is that a threat because someone might want to play as a thief? Surely that can’t be right.

Mind, I think the hostility to randoms is misguided. I also hope that randoms band together for mutual defense to make the hostility harder in practice than in theory. But I don’t see how a general statement of domain policy is a threat under the TOS as written (and I am a Washington attorney and it is a Washington legal document). If that is what SBS has in mind, they need to rewrite that section of the TOS. But it is not what they should have in mind.

That is my opinion reading the TOS, of which only the “Code of Conduct” section seems applicable (and nothing in the conduct link on the forums seems applicable at all).

Except that's not comparable to what's happening here and you know it

Gunnlang - 1 month ago
@Sir Zyr:

Posted By Sir Zyr at 2:46 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Beathan at 9:39 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Ok. What if I say that, in my county, we will punish thieves severely. Is that a threat because someone might want to play as a thief? Surely that can’t be right.

Mind, I think the hostility to randoms is misguided. I also hope that randoms band together for mutual defense to make the hostility harder in practice than in theory. But I don’t see how a general statement of domain policy is a threat under the TOS as written (and I am a Washington attorney and it is a Washington legal document). If that is what SBS has in mind, they need to rewrite that section of the TOS. But it is not what they should have in mind.

That is my opinion reading the TOS, of which only the “Code of Conduct” section seems applicable (and nothing in the conduct link on the forums seems applicable at all).

Except that's not comparable to what's happening here and you know it

How is that not the same? The majority of nobles, at least those that talk within those discussions. Have said, if it was up to them, they would give any criminals the harsh sentence that the game allowed. Is that not the same thing to you? Trying to ruin peoples gameplay by not letting them pick anywhere? It's still threatening people before the game has even started.

I honestly can't see how you can say one threat is fine and the other isn't.

Bombastus - 1 month ago
@Gunnlang:

Posted By Gunnlang at 10:57 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Sir Zyr at 2:46 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Except that's not comparable to what's happening here and you know it

How is that not the same? The majority of nobles, at least those that talk within those discussions. Have said, if it was up to them, they would give any criminals the harsh sentence that the game allowed. Is that not the same thing to you? Trying to ruin peoples gameplay by not letting them pick anywhere? It's still threatening people before the game has even started.

I honestly can't see how you can say one threat is fine and the other isn't.

Because one is intended to influence Domain and Settlement Selection in a way that is against the rules, and the other is just playing the game.

Dekul - 1 month ago
@Bombastus:

Posted By Bombastus at 01:32 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Gunnlang at 10:57 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Sir Zyr at 2:46 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Except that's not comparable to what's happening here and you know it

How is that not the same? The majority of nobles, at least those that talk within those discussions. Have said, if it was up to them, they would give any criminals the harsh sentence that the game allowed. Is that not the same thing to you? Trying to ruin peoples gameplay by not letting them pick anywhere? It's still threatening people before the game has even started.

I honestly can't see how you can say one threat is fine and the other isn't.

Because one is intended to influence Domain and Settlement Selection in a way that is against the rules, and the other is just playing the game.

Influencing people's decisions by in-game action, or at least the threat of in-game action was never against the rules till now. Seems a little arbitrary. People have been trying to influence each other's decisions in the game since day 1. The community was informed the dance of dynasties had begun as early as the end of kickstarter...

Sir Zyr - 1 month ago
@Dekul:

Posted By Gunnlang at 12:10 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Bombastus at 4:32 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Because one is intended to influence Domain and Settlement Selection in a way that is against the rules, and the other is just playing the game.

Nah one is just assuming those wanting to be bandits/pvpers don't hold a title, thus aren't affected. Or maybe people see nothing wrong with threatening people when it's in line with their views. You knows.

More like one is punishing characters for their in-game actions (running a bandit town threatening the stability of its county) and the other is, well, in violation of what casp and vye have stated here. Put another way, one has a valid in-game reason for taking action, the other does not. I don't see this as hard at all.

Posted By Dekul at 12:16 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Bombastus at 01:32 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Posted By Gunnlang at 10:57 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Sir Zyr at 2:46 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Except that's not comparable to what's happening here and you know it

How is that not the same? The majority of nobles, at least those that talk within those discussions. Have said, if it was up to them, they would give any criminals the harsh sentence that the game allowed. Is that not the same thing to you? Trying to ruin peoples gameplay by not letting them pick anywhere? It's still threatening people before the game has even started.

I honestly can't see how you can say one threat is fine and the other isn't.

Because one is intended to influence Domain and Settlement Selection in a way that is against the rules, and the other is just playing the game.

Influencing people's decisions by in-game action, or at least the threat of in-game action was never against the rules till now. Seems a little arbitrary. People have been trying to influence each other's decisions in the game since day 1. The community was informed the dance of dynasties had begun as early as the end of kickstarter...

Influencing in general is fine. Threatening as a specific form of influence without valid in-game reasons, as was being done, is not by virtue of being against the coc and tos. Again, not hard

Gunnlang - 1 month ago
@Bombastus:

Posted By Bombastus at 4:32 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Because one is intended to influence Domain and Settlement Selection in a way that is against the rules, and the other is just playing the game.

Nah one is just assuming those wanting to be bandits/pvpers don't hold a title, thus aren't affected. Or maybe people see nothing wrong with threatening people when it's in line with their views. You knows.

Sir Zyr - 1 month ago
@Bombastus:

Posted By Bombastus at 11:32 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Gunnlang at 10:57 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Sir Zyr at 2:46 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

Except that's not comparable to what's happening here and you know it

How is that not the same? The majority of nobles, at least those that talk within those discussions. Have said, if it was up to them, they would give any criminals the harsh sentence that the game allowed. Is that not the same thing to you? Trying to ruin peoples gameplay by not letting them pick anywhere? It's still threatening people before the game has even started.

I honestly can't see how you can say one threat is fine and the other isn't.

Because one is intended to influence Domain and Settlement Selection in a way that is against the rules, and the other is just playing the game.

This.

Beathan - 1 month ago
@Sir Zyr:

Posted By Sir Zyr at 9:46 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Beathan at 9:39 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Sir Zyr at 9:34 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Indirect and general threats (which they were) are still threats...

Ok. What if I say that, in my county, we will punish thieves severely. Is that a threat because someone might want to play as a thief? Surely that can’t be right.

Mind, I think the hostility to randoms is misguided. I also hope that randoms band together for mutual defense to make the hostility harder in practice than in theory. But I don’t see how a general statement of domain policy is a threat under the TOS as written (and I am a Washington attorney and it is a Washington legal document). If that is what SBS has in mind, they need to rewrite that section of the TOS. But it is not what they should have in mind.

That is my opinion reading the TOS, of which only the “Code of Conduct” section seems applicable (and nothing in the conduct link on the forums seems applicable at all).

Except that's not comparable to what's happening here and you know it

Yeah. I see a lot of hostility and mafia-like strong-arming. I have a problem with the behavior. I think it is impolitic and unethical. What I don’t think is that it violates the TOS unless it is done in a DM or specific response to a specific post on the forums. And I do think that it would be worse for SBS to just interpret its TOS arbitrarily even if for good reason.

Poldano - 1 month ago

I've been advising newcomers that trolling would be discouraged in CoE by the mechanics. Any player creating an alt for the purpose of trolling is shortchanging the development of his main character. That's because in order to be an effective troll, especially with respect to influencing NPCs, the alt character would need to acquire and develop some skills. To do so requires time spent that the player could be using to develop his main character's skills. In the case of nobles, this could be disastrous for the realm.

Just sayin'.

Charlie George - 1 month ago

Yeah I actually don't disagree with him either. It's been said and clarified. The only meaningful choice is to accept it and move on.

I have never and will never be a fan of players dictating how a game is made. Our only decision should be if we want to play it at all. Until you get there doing anything but what is stated is just asking for your game time to be removed for you.

I'd rather that be my choice.

TheCheshireDragon - 1 month ago

Was gonna weigh in on this, but at... Fuck it!

What Bombastus said.

Bombastus - 1 month ago

The strawmen are thick tonight.

Look, this isn't difficult. If you communicate to a random title holder that you will attack them if they pick freely with their IP in your domain, you are communicating a threat in order to influence the behavior of other players in DSS. It doesn't matter if you are being honest, giving fair warning or whatever. You do not have the right to influence players choices in DSS with threats of future in-game retribution. Yes, you can still take your retribution later, but that's not the point. Exposition could be over a year away. DSS is now, and the impact of your threats is happening now.

If you are attempting to dissuade people from using their DSS pick the way they choose by using threats of retribution, that is against the rules. There isn't any point in arguing that.

Beathan - 1 month ago
@Bombastus:

Posted By Bombastus at 9:21 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

The strawmen are thick tonight.

Look, this isn't difficult. If you communicate to a random title holder that you will attack them if they pick freely with their IP in your domain, you are communicating a threat in order to influence the behavior of other players in DSS. It doesn't matter if you are being honest, giving fair warning or whatever. You do not have the right to influence players choices in DSS with threats of future in-game retribution. Yes, you can still take your retribution later, but that's not the point. Exposition could be over a year away. DSS is now, and the impact of your threats is happening now.

If you are attempting to dissuade people from using their DSS pick the way they choose by using threats of retribution, that is against the rules. There isn't any point in arguing that.

That’s true. And it might violate the TOS. But a standing policy statement is not personally directed and is therefore not a threat. Perhaps SBS doesn’t want such things as domain policy, but I don’t see anything in the TOS prohibiting generalized statements. And, if that does, than all the anti-Kypiq cannibalism talk would also violate TOS. As would any expression of intent to play as a deviant.

Charlie George - 1 month ago
@Beathan:

Posted By Beathan at 11:30 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Bombastus at 9:21 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

The strawmen are thick tonight.

Look, this isn't difficult. If you communicate to a random title holder that you will attack them if they pick freely with their IP in your domain, you are communicating a threat in order to influence the behavior of other players in DSS. It doesn't matter if you are being honest, giving fair warning or whatever. You do not have the right to influence players choices in DSS with threats of future in-game retribution. Yes, you can still take your retribution later, but that's not the point. Exposition could be over a year away. DSS is now, and the impact of your threats is happening now.

If you are attempting to dissuade people from using their DSS pick the way they choose by using threats of retribution, that is against the rules. There isn't any point in arguing that.

That’s true. And it might violate the TOS. But a standing policy statement is not personally directed and is therefore not a threat. Perhaps SBS doesn’t want such things as domain policy, but I don’t see anything in the TOS prohibiting generalized statements. And, if that does, than all the anti-Kypiq cannibalism talk would also violate TOS. As would any expression of intent to play as a deviant.

Again, just to be clear

We have absolutely, clearly been told that statements of aggression towards shadow nobles because of placement concerns or communication requirements will be removed and dealt with by the developers.

There has been no retraction, only further clarifications reinforcing that stance. The position could not be more clear right now.

Regardless of how I might or might not feel about that issue I don't want people to think there is still mud in the water or wiggle room. There is not.

Sir Zyr - 1 month ago

True. I overstated myself. Apologies

Edit: Pi post. 314th :p

ReneDeVaudemont - 1 month ago

We created two sets of rules, the aforementioned CoC and ToS, as well as the mechanics of D&SS. The mechanics of D&SS say that 50% of the domains can be reserved by nobility to help preserve the community-building they've done thus far and 50% of the domains will be filled by anyone and everyone who wants to be in that domain. Those are the rules. Does this mean I bought half a county?Am I at risk of not being able to place in the duchy/kingdom who's community I have been part of for well over two years?

Sir Zyr - 1 month ago
@ReneDeVaudemont:

Posted By ReneDeVaudemont at 8:34 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

We created two sets of rules, the aforementioned CoC and ToS, as well as the mechanics of D&SS. The mechanics of D&SS say that 50% of the domains can be reserved by nobility to help preserve the community-building they've done thus far and 50% of the domains will be filled by anyone and everyone who wants to be in that domain. Those are the rules. Does this mean I bought half a county?Am I at risk of not being able to place in the duchy/kingdom who's community I have been part of for well over two years?

If you were not one of the people who had a position reserved ahead of time then, yes, that's possible.

And no, you still get a full county, with its own rules and such set by you, but half the settlements may be taken by randoms who you'll have to work with, though it's always possible you'll be better off with them than with all your preselected mayors due to, say, more useful perspectives and skillsets. Only time will tell.

Charlie George - 1 month ago
@Sir Zyr:

Posted By Sir Zyr at 10:54 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By ReneDeVaudemont at 8:34 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

We created two sets of rules, the aforementioned CoC and ToS, as well as the mechanics of D&SS. The mechanics of D&SS say that 50% of the domains can be reserved by nobility to help preserve the community-building they've done thus far and 50% of the domains will be filled by anyone and everyone who wants to be in that domain. Those are the rules. Does this mean I bought half a county?Am I at risk of not being able to place in the duchy/kingdom who's community I have been part of for well over two years?

If you were not one of the people who had a position reserved ahead of time then, yes, that's possible.

And no, you still get a full county, with its own rules and such set by you, but half the settlements may be taken by randoms who you'll have to work with, though it's always possible you'll be better off with them than with all your preselected mayors due to, say, more useful perspectives and skillsets. Only time will tell.

To be clear working with them is not required by the studio, just advised and smiled upon.

Just don't threaten them before they have a chance to place. So far that is the only additional expectation.

Dleatherus - 1 month ago

my TL:DR interpretation of this all

it's ok for hostiles to place in a duchy with the intent of creating mayhem, not ok for you to warn them not to do so

Xefipor - 1 month ago
@Dleatherus:

Posted By Dleatherus at 8:29 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

my TL:DR interpretation of this all

it's ok for hostiles to place in a duchy with the intent of creating mayhem, not ok for you to warn them not to do so

As long as they don't say anything in the forums about it.. It is ok..

Augustus_Aquila - 1 month ago

.

Takeda_Shinukage - 1 month ago

Honestly I feel like whenever the studio releases an update w/ content or something to do, they immediately get hit with something that they didn't (seem) to think would happen or is unintended. Whether it was the lost vault, searing plague, the PAX event, and now DSS.

At this point I feel like they need to start polling the core communities or something , maybe hire an ambassador from each community idk because it seems like their idea of what to do and what people want to do are always at conflict. That can be fatal in a sandbox game where it's up to the players imagination. Not being able to predict what a player can and will do in a sandbox especially a sandbox with permanent consequences can just flat out kill your game.

Just guessing out of my ass here: I get that it's hard to think of what someone else is thinking but it almost seems like the studio may have a form of echo chamber / homogeneous group where everyone just thinks roughly the same way gameplay-wise so these conflicting gameplay styles never really get brought to light. Like I said, that's just an observation out of my ass. When ever I see the devs talk design in the QnAs and such it just seems like they might not have enough playstyle or thought-group diversity.

Degs - 1 month ago
@Takeda_Shinukage:

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 9:24 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Honestly I feel like whenever the studio releases an update or something to do, they immediately get hit with something that they didn't (seem) to think would happen or is unintended.

At this point I feel like they need to start polling the core communities or something because it seems like their idea of what to do and what people want to do are always at conflict. That can be fatal in a sandbox game where it's up to the players imagination. Not being able to predict what a play can do in a sandbox especially a sandbox with permanent consequences can just flat out kill your game.

This is a fantastic idea in theory, except if this game wants to experience any kind of growth post release, it's going to need to understand what kind of people enjoy sandboxes in the first place, and not just the people who back a game before gameplay is even on the horizon.

Every successful or even semi-successful sandbox MMO has had an active metagame. The post sparking this bullshit was incredibly tame, borderline boring.

"Don't put land in the duchy without consulting with the Duke, or we'll end you."

Gee. Fucking. Whiz. If you can't even lay down that kind of gauntlet without a god damn LEAD DEV POST FORBIDDING IT then competition in this game will stagnate.

The only reason I've been hanging on, AT ALL, was the idea that I'd have another game where I could do propaganda videos again. They're fun to make, people love them, and most importantly: they directly draw in more players.

Oops.

Takeda_Shinukage - 1 month ago
@Degs:

Posted By Degs at 9:32 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 9:24 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Honestly I feel like whenever the studio releases an update or something to do, they immediately get hit with something that they didn't (seem) to think would happen or is unintended.

At this point I feel like they need to start polling the core communities or something because it seems like their idea of what to do and what people want to do are always at conflict. That can be fatal in a sandbox game where it's up to the players imagination. Not being able to predict what a play can do in a sandbox especially a sandbox with permanent consequences can just flat out kill your game.

This is a fantastic idea in theory, except if this game wants to experience any kind of growth post release, it's going to need to understand what kind of people enjoy sandboxes in the first place, and not just the people who back a game before gameplay is even on the horizon.

I mean if they can't predict what this small subset of nobles wants to do, how are they supposed to be expected to understand the other 90%+? The point is they have not nailed a community prediction related to game events once since I've followed. That's not good. Whether this specific meta game kind of behavior from players is good or not wasn't really in the scope of my post. Being able to see this behavior was happening or not is the point, not if it's good or bad behavior.

Degs - 1 month ago
@Takeda_Shinukage:

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 9:37 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Degs at 9:32 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 9:24 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Honestly I feel like whenever the studio releases an update or something to do, they immediately get hit with something that they didn't (seem) to think would happen or is unintended.

At this point I feel like they need to start polling the core communities or something because it seems like their idea of what to do and what people want to do are always at conflict. That can be fatal in a sandbox game where it's up to the players imagination. Not being able to predict what a play can do in a sandbox especially a sandbox with permanent consequences can just flat out kill your game.

This is a fantastic idea in theory, except if this game wants to experience any kind of growth post release, it's going to need to understand what kind of people enjoy sandboxes in the first place, and not just the people who back a game before gameplay is even on the horizon.

I mean if they can't predict what this small subset of nobles wants to do, how are they supposed to be expected to understand the other 90%+?

I want to frame this and put it on my wall. It's just beautiful.

Xefipor - 1 month ago

So this is what the "House Rules" are.. Is this true..?

Serpentius:cloud_lightning:Today at 9:11 PM The CoC and ToS are the house rules.

Xonth - 1 month ago

Wow, buying your title has really gotten to your ego it seems

Degs - 1 month ago
@Xonth:

Posted By Xonth at 9:16 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Wow, buying your title has really gotten to your ego it seems

You don't have to defend every stupid thing a game dev does, it's OK bud. It's fully OK to acknowledge that the dumpster fire is getting bigger.

ShadowTani - 1 month ago

Some are placing with hostile intents. In addition the Aristocrats and Nobility will have to work together more or less after the game begins to ensure that the citizens of their kingdom have a good experience. Thus, it's not unreasonable to ask people who do not have hostile intents to contact you before placing to show their willingness to cooperate with the group. Elements who aren't interested in cooperating will quickly become an obstacle to the rest at best, if not a threat.

Still, a lot of groups have made their statements somewhat more aggressive than it need to be. So I can understand why SBS is making the statements they are here. They aren't outright saying you can't make such statements, just that you could make the same statements in a far more polite and accommodating way.

Naberius - 1 month ago

So. Monarchs and Dukes shouldn't have publicly warned unaligned or new incoming Nobility of their intentions? Instead conquered them using in-game means anyways.

Understood.

Degs - 1 month ago

Oof. This is amazingly shortsighted. Metagaming is henceforth banned.

Dead game walking.

RE: Downvotes, you're right, I'm sorry, I should be more accurate. The game isn't walking yet.

HeliosDarkfire - 1 month ago

Fairly certain the Dance of Domains post clearly gives us permission to threaten "in game characters". I obviously haven't seen every message sent out in regards to county selection choices, but threatening someone's in game character with the chance to lose their county if they choose not to interact within the Duchy/Kingdom seems kind of exactly what DoD is?

Edited to say Dance of Domains

whynot - 1 month ago

Using an in-game mechanic to shore up our lands is part of the game and saying so shouldn't be against TOS or COD. And nor should a warning on the forums. If I was a new count and was looking at some lands I wouldn't want to just jump into the middle of community plans, I'd like to know ahead of time by talking to that Duke.

Noslim - 1 month ago

I planned to create a deviant settlement but advertising it might make others think that I'm "communicating that you intend to make their play experience poorer" so I'm going to do something else..

Moonlynx - 1 month ago
@Noslim:

Posted By Noslim at 5:25 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

I planned to create a deviant settlement but advertising it might make others think that I'm "communicating that you intend to make their play experience poorer" so I'm going to do something else..

This happened to me as well. I had in my original post that I would accept deviants and was shamed by the community that I shouldn't have deviants in my county. So, all of those plans are gone.

mickdude2 - 1 month ago

So, point blank Caspian, are Vornair and other communities posts breaking ToS?

BigKiwi - 1 month ago
@mickdude2:

Posted By mickdude2 at 2:55 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

So, point blank Caspian, are Vornair and other communities posts breaking ToS?

By giving them riveting story points to be apart and a great adventure of siege and defeat? If thats the playstyle you want to play yes but if not, no. But then again is Caspians post breaking ToS for every post of splitting from a kingdom or deviant play?

Seems like a very broad statement in general. So if communities that didn't say counts that don''t talk to us are going to be removed from their seat of power and instead just did it asap after launch once possible without a post on the forums does not break ToS? since they didn't give a fair warning of parley.

Beathan - 1 month ago
@mickdude2:

Posted By mickdude2 at 2:55 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

So, point blank Caspian, are Vornair and other communities posts breaking ToS?

Also, if random counts form some counterbalancing mutual aid society to push back on communities like Vornair, would they be violating the spirit of DSS? That would seem to be the logical and appropriate response. But that response can’t be organized if Vornair organizes its suppression of the randoms in secret to spring on them without warning.

I guess what matters is whether the bullying works and keeps randoms out, which violates the spirit of DSS, or whether it operates as a conflict driver and creates a counter-balancing insurgent community of random counts. I’m not sure what the right answer is here — but “keep your hostility to randoms secret and spring it on them at launch without giving them a chance to prepare” seems like the wrong answer.

HerbLord - 1 month ago

So the takeaway is that, do not warn or threaten that you will be taking their domain once in game to encourage new players to plan and coordinate with a pre existing community (so that they can keep their domain once in game)...

INSTEAD... Just do it in game, and let them find out organically in game that they lost their domain. And dont tell them why.

I understand the message tho, but I think this is how some members of the community will take it. (to use in game mechanics instead of warning newer players of the best course of their actions).

vonBismark - 1 month ago

The really only became a bigger issue since Mayor upgrades and Count upgrades were released to the public after being taken away, and at the same time, the Dutch Auction. People have been theorycrafting for years and will feel threatened by any "new" nobility who may break those theories. You can say "be nice to them" but in reality, A leader saying someone will be targeted if they dont listen to their rules of their community is fair. thats how laws and societies are governed. There are RL nations who have closed borders and don't take kindly to people randomly dropping in. It's going to happen.

Whether or not this is just a general statement so people feel more comfortable buying the count/mayor upgrades and bypass the communities plans, or really for the "play experience". however, there are lots of quotes from people and even sbs members about how Elyria is a fuedalistic society and isnt meant to be fair. that was the Logic behind the Mayor rules or the rules for AL. Obviously any RL threats are to be avoided, but threats about what is going to happen purely in game are 100% apart of the Dance.

If you classify people "threatening" to make peoples player experiences worse, how are you allowing something like Solaris to "threaten" independance. wouldnt that be hurting Thared's "player experience"? What about Counts and Dukes threatening to take AL? Any hostilities between ANY two parties would be viewed as threats and would be against your ToS and CoC if you followed your logic correctly.

Kinoss - 1 month ago

I go to a game night at a friends house regularly. There are usually lots of people, and multiple games being played.

Just as with this Studio, multiple Kingdoms are playing their own games, and have their own plans.

If someone new comes to our game night, then no one has a problem if they want to introduce themselves and play in one of the many available games, but what is NOT acceptable is if they are uninvited, don't introduce themselves, and force their way into a game that is already ongoing and are seeking to play in their own way regardless of what everyone else is doing.

They will be asked to change their behavior or asked to leave. If they do neither of these things then they will be forced to leave.

Beathan - 1 month ago
@Kinoss:

Posted By Kinoss at 2:16 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

I go to a game night at a friends house regularly. There are usually lots of people, and multiple games being played.

Just as with this Studio, multiple Kingdoms are playing their own games, and have their own plans.

If someone new comes to our game night, then no one has a problem if they want to introduce themselves and play in one of the many available games, but what is NOT acceptable is if they are uninvited, don't introduce themselves, and force their way into a game that is already ongoing and are seeking to play in their own way regardless of what everyone else is doing.

They will be asked to change their behavior or asked to leave. If they do neither of these things then they will be forced to leave.

You are moving the goalposts. You are treating each kingdom as it’s own house with its own game night. SBS is the house and COE is the game night. Each game can make up its own rules, to some extent, but it can’t expect to do so without scrutiny and without consequences if what they have made up doesn’t fit the overarching house rules or expectations.

Also, unlike your game night, this is an announced open game night. Anyone can come. Just buy a ticket and you are in. The rules are NOT against unannounced drop in. The rules actually favor that.

It’s like a poker night. Anyone can sit at any table, as long as there is an empty seat when they show up. And while some seats can be saved, you can’t save seats other than as allowed by the house rules. Trying to do so with goons violates the rules.

That said, if someone sits down at a table full of card sharps working together, they are going to get fleeced.

Caspian - 1 month ago

Hey All,

Just a couple friendly reminders:

  1. There's no such thing as in-game mechanics to prevent out-of-game bullying. That's something that is dealt with using a Terms of Service and Code of Conduct. But we do have out-of-game mechanics to deal with those problems, and the moderators and admins can use them if necessary to protect the safety and well-being of our players.

  2. We created two sets of rules, the aforementioned CoC and ToS, as well as the mechanics of D&SS. The mechanics of D&SS say that 50% of the domains can be reserved by nobility to help preserve the community-building they've done thus far and 50% of the domains will be filled by anyone and everyone who wants to be in that domain. Those are the rules.

To reference what Vye said in her blog post, showing up to a game of Texas Hold'em with cards in hand isn't "playing the game the way you want to play it," that's just called cheating. In any game of Texas Hold'em you're expected to leverage the private cards you were given and make the best of the community cards available, or don't play the game.

Additionally, if you were invited over by a friend to play a competitive board game and you started growling at people, glaring at them, or using "out-of-game" methods of intimidation in order to discourage certain behavior, you didn't break any rules of the game, but you might have broken the rules of the house. It would be completely within the rights of the friend that invited you, or the owner, to say "Yo, you need to treat people better if you want to play with us, no more of that stuff."

Chronicles of Elyria, like any game, has its rules and mechanics, as does Domain & Settlement Selection, but those are not the only rules that apply. We have our house rules as well, and everyone is expected to follow them.

And in case there's any question, threatening, intimidating, or harassing other players, or in any way communicating that you intend to make their play experience poorer as a result of their D&SS pick is not the Dance of Dynasties. That's simply bullying and is viewed as a violation of our ToS and CoC.

Note: Nowhere have I said that people cannot use the in-game mechanics to try and force people out of their domain, only that everyone needs to be free to make their picks without hostile intervention.

SamuelVimes - 1 month ago
@Caspian:

Posted By Caspian at 1:48 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Hey All,

Just a couple friendly reminders:

  1. There's no such thing as in-game mechanics to prevent out-of-game bullying. That's something that is dealt with using a Terms of Service and Code of Conduct. But we do have out-of-game mechanics to deal with those problems, and the moderators and admins can use them if necessary to protect the safety and well-being of our players.

  2. We created two sets of rules, the aforementioned CoC and ToS, as well as the mechanics of D&SS. The mechanics of D&SS say that 50% of the domains can be reserved by nobility to help preserve the community-building they've done thus far and 50% of the domains will be filled by anyone and everyone who wants to be in that domain. Those are the rules.

To reference what Vye said in her blog post, showing up to a game of Texas Hold'em with cards in hand isn't "playing the game the way you want to play it," that's just called cheating. In any game of Texas Hold'em you're expected to leverage the private cards you were given and make the best of the community cards available, or don't play the game.

Additionally, if you were invited over by a friend to play a competitive board game and you started growling at people, glaring at them, or using "out-of-game" methods of intimidation in order to discourage certain behavior, you didn't break any rules of the game, but you might have broken the rules of the house. It would be completely within the rights of the friend that invited you, or the owner, to say "Yo, you need to treat people better if you want to play with us, no more of that stuff."

Chronicles of Elyria, like any game, has its rules and mechanics, as does Domain & Settlement Selection, but those are not the only rules that apply. We have our house rules as well, and everyone is expected to follow them.

And in case there's any question, threatening, intimidating, or harassing other players, or in any way communicating that you intend to make their play experience poorer as a result of their D&SS pick is not the Dance of Dynasties. That's simply bullying and is viewed as a violation of our ToS and CoC.

Note: Nowhere have I said that people cannot use the in-game mechanics to try and force people out of their domain, only that everyone needs to be free to make their picks without hostile intervention.

So two things here...

  1. As someone who has dealt poker professionally, let me say that this is not an entirely accurate analogy. Telling people your intent to do something in game is not like bringing your own cards, which is definitely against the rules. It's more like intentionally revealing one of your hole cards. That is completely within the rules and is actually a strategy in certain situations.

  2. How is "telling" someone that IF they pick a certain county they will be destroyed in game ruining their play experience? But it's ok to just wreck them if you don't tell them in advance? Those of us who purchased counts did so because we want to run a county, not because we just wanted to pick it and name it. I would think that publicly stating which counties you consider off limits BEFORE selection is actually better for any given persons play experience. If they still want to pick there, they know what's coming. If they don't want to deal with that mess though, they know in advance and can choose somewhere else. I don't see how this is a bad thing?

JohnWhite - 1 month ago
@SamuelVimes:

Posted By SamuelVimes at 9:32 PM - Sun Sep 08 2019

So two things here...

  1. As someone who has dealt poker professionally, let me say that this is not an entirely accurate analogy. Telling people your intent to do something in game is not like bringing your own cards, which is definitely against the rules. It's more like intentionally revealing one of your hole cards. That is completely within the rules and is actually a strategy in certain situations.

  2. How is "telling" someone that IF they pick a certain county they will be destroyed in game ruining their play experience? But it's ok to just wreck them if you don't tell them in advance? Those of us who purchased counts did so because we want to run a county, not because we just wanted to pick it and name it. I would think that publicly stating which counties you consider off limits BEFORE selection is actually better for any given persons play experience. If they still want to pick there, they know what's coming. If they don't want to deal with that mess though, they know in advance and can choose somewhere else. I don't see how this is a bad thing?

Stop trying to make sense of this and just read between the lines: this course of action (threatening virtual nobles with virtual armies) may prevent people from spending money in title upgrades and SBS simply can't have that.

You don't matter, you already spent money, selling your account is not allowed so you're (or at least your money is) staying. They need new money.so they make the rules as they go regardless of what sense it makes. Why would Caspian give a crap if some dude that upgraded his bloodline to count gets raped on launch day?

Gunnlang - 1 month ago
@Caspian:

Posted By Caspian at 06:48 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

And in case there's any question, threatening, intimidating, or harassing other players, or in any way communicating that you intend to make their play experience poorer as a result of their D&SS pick is not the Dance of Dynasties. That's simply bullying and is viewed as a violation of our ToS and CoC.

Honestly this has been happening for years. It's only come to ahead because of DSS. But it's pretty common knowledge throughout most communities, that some people plan to kill randoms. Just some people only talk about this within their own discords. While others, like Vornair, publicly talk about it.

Anyone could really see this whole shitstorm coming a mile away. But really, you give into the community too much. By letting kings/dukes reserve so many slots. It just reinforced their belief that they can push you/people around. It's like that saying "give people an inch, they will take a mile". Maybe if you stopped giving into communities as a whole, they will stop thinking they can do whatever the hell they want.

If you don't like how something is playing out, at least for god sake, bring it up beforehand. Leaving this shit to the last minute. It's going to cause nothing but drama. Something that seems to be a pattern with you guys.

KipFoE - 1 month ago
@Caspian:

Posted By Caspian at 3:48 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Hey All,

Just a couple friendly reminders:

  1. There's no such thing as in-game mechanics to prevent out-of-game bullying. That's something that is dealt with using a Terms of Service and Code of Conduct. But we do have out-of-game mechanics to deal with those problems, and the moderators and admins can use them if necessary to protect the safety and well-being of our players.

  2. We created two sets of rules, the aforementioned CoC and ToS, as well as the mechanics of D&SS. The mechanics of D&SS say that 50% of the domains can be reserved by nobility to help preserve the community-building they've done thus far and 50% of the domains will be filled by anyone and everyone who wants to be in that domain. Those are the rules.

To reference what Vye said in her blog post, showing up to a game of Texas Hold'em with cards in hand isn't "playing the game the way you want to play it," that's just called cheating. In any game of Texas Hold'em you're expected to leverage the private cards you were given and make the best of the community cards available, or don't play the game.

Additionally, if you were invited over by a friend to play a competitive board game and you started growling at people, glaring at them, or using "out-of-game" methods of intimidation in order to discourage certain behavior, you didn't break any rules of the game, but you might have broken the rules of the house. It would be completely within the rights of the friend that invited you, or the owner, to say "Yo, you need to treat people better if you want to play with us, no more of that stuff."

Chronicles of Elyria, like any game, has its rules and mechanics, as does Domain & Settlement Selection, but those are not the only rules that apply. We have our house rules as well, and everyone is expected to follow them.

And in case there's any question, threatening, intimidating, or harassing other players, or in any way communicating that you intend to make their play experience poorer as a result of their D&SS pick is not the Dance of Dynasties. That's simply bullying and is viewed as a violation of our ToS and CoC.

Note: Nowhere have I said that people cannot use the in-game mechanics to try and force people out of their domain, only that everyone needs to be free to make their picks without hostile intervention.

What I’ve read so far is that 50% could be reserved, but this post implies that only 50% could be claimed by a community or they are breaking some rule. Is there a rule that states only x amount of an area can be claimed by friendlies?

How is telling potentially hostile forces that you will engage in in-game pvp against them “bullying”?????

Can I suggest having a control group of players you run statements like this by to gauge perception before posting what appears to be a new rule that conflicts with prior information?

And I agree with some of Adams thoughts: if you put the mechanics in the game, expect players to use them to their advantage any way they can.

Adam Burrfoot - 1 month ago
@Caspian:

Posted By Caspian at 2:48 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Hey All,

Just a couple friendly reminders:

  1. There's no such thing as in-game mechanics to prevent out-of-game bullying. That's something that is dealt with using a Terms of Service and Code of Conduct. But we do have out-of-game mechanics to deal with those problems, and the moderators and admins can use them if necessary to protect the safety and well-being of our players.

  2. We created two sets of rules, the aforementioned CoC and ToS, as well as the mechanics of D&SS. The mechanics of D&SS say that 50% of the domains can be reserved by nobility to help preserve the community-building they've done thus far and 50% of the domains will be filled by anyone and everyone who wants to be in that domain. Those are the rules.

To reference what Vye said in her blog post, showing up to a game of Texas Hold'em with cards in hand isn't "playing the game the way you want to play it," that's just called cheating. In any game of Texas Hold'em you're expected to leverage the private cards you were given and make the best of the community cards available, or don't play the game.

Additionally, if you were invited over by a friend to play a competitive board game and you started growling at people, glaring at them, or using "out-of-game" methods of intimidation in order to discourage certain behavior, you didn't break any rules of the game, but you might have broken the rules of the house. It would be completely within the rights of the friend that invited you, or the owner, to say "Yo, you need to treat people better if you want to play with us, no more of that stuff."

Chronicles of Elyria, like any game, has its rules and mechanics, as does Domain & Settlement Selection, but those are not the only rules that apply. We have our house rules as well, and everyone is expected to follow them.

And in case there's any question, threatening, intimidating, or harassing other players, or in any way communicating that you intend to make their play experience poorer as a result of their D&SS pick is not the Dance of Dynasties. That's simply bullying and is viewed as a violation of our ToS and CoC.

Note: Nowhere have I said that people cannot use the in-game mechanics to try and force people out of their domain, only that everyone needs to be free to make their picks without hostile intervention.

Hey bud. Without going too in depth into this. This is dumb, you cant tell people here go have a dance then afterwards tell people "Oh no you can only dance the way that I want you to dance."

It gives the allure that you are the type of person and type of studio that invites people over to your house to play with your toys. Then you play with the toys together and as soon as someone says they want to play with your toys in a way that you dont typically enjoy playing with them yourself then they can get the fuck out of your house.

I can say confidently and abruptly that I will use the toolsets that you give me and the mechanics that you give me and I will meta game with my community to use them however we see fit. I will use your toys as we see fit for the benefit of what we want to accomplish as a community. You build the toys, in building the toys you build out what exactly those toys can do in this game. So long as the toy can do it, I get to use it for as long as I am able to, unless you identify it as an exploit that you will fix, however I decide to to play the game how I want to play this game.

Then me saying, point blank, (and I mean this) "I will use the toys you make for this game, the mechanics and systems that are available to me, to burn Caspian's county to the ground in-game with as little punishment to myself and my community as possible."

As per currently discussed mechanics the current plan is very simple. I will not march my troops, I will take my people who want to join me in this endeavor, spark into an alt in the general area of where your county is (wherever it may be located) and then use that group of alts to rouse the NPCs to our side and march those local individuals or "bandits" on Caspian's county in an effort to burn it to the ground with citizens from its own county. Thus even if our alts die or are punished, we dont really care because they are alts and in no way effect our main characters.

If this is now against TOS please feel free to ban me. But also ban every deviant person and group who has threatened the monarchs with assassination. Also ban Bombastus and his community for threatening to raid Nimb to take the Sun Stone from him. Or maybe just realize that what you are saying is dumb and take it back with an apology to your community for saying something that made them think you are going to change this game immensely because you dont like people playing a certain way in your "MEOW".

I also expect others to do this exact same thing to me in my city, and to everyone else in my community in our community areas because this is the meta you have created with your design and until it has been fixed to where I cant do this then I will find another way to do it. :-)

This is how gamers work, this will always be how gamers work.

Pledged to the betterment of the Studio and CoE through realistic, open, honest communication about what players can and will do with the toys you give them.

Evanuris - 1 month ago
@Adam Burrfoot:

Posted By Adam Burrfoot at 9:06 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Caspian at 2:48 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Hey All,

Just a couple friendly reminders:

  1. There's no such thing as in-game mechanics to prevent out-of-game bullying. That's something that is dealt with using a Terms of Service and Code of Conduct. But we do have out-of-game mechanics to deal with those problems, and the moderators and admins can use them if necessary to protect the safety and well-being of our players.

  2. We created two sets of rules, the aforementioned CoC and ToS, as well as the mechanics of D&SS. The mechanics of D&SS say that 50% of the domains can be reserved by nobility to help preserve the community-building they've done thus far and 50% of the domains will be filled by anyone and everyone who wants to be in that domain. Those are the rules.

To reference what Vye said in her blog post, showing up to a game of Texas Hold'em with cards in hand isn't "playing the game the way you want to play it," that's just called cheating. In any game of Texas Hold'em you're expected to leverage the private cards you were given and make the best of the community cards available, or don't play the game.

Additionally, if you were invited over by a friend to play a competitive board game and you started growling at people, glaring at them, or using "out-of-game" methods of intimidation in order to discourage certain behavior, you didn't break any rules of the game, but you might have broken the rules of the house. It would be completely within the rights of the friend that invited you, or the owner, to say "Yo, you need to treat people better if you want to play with us, no more of that stuff."

Chronicles of Elyria, like any game, has its rules and mechanics, as does Domain & Settlement Selection, but those are not the only rules that apply. We have our house rules as well, and everyone is expected to follow them.

And in case there's any question, threatening, intimidating, or harassing other players, or in any way communicating that you intend to make their play experience poorer as a result of their D&SS pick is not the Dance of Dynasties. That's simply bullying and is viewed as a violation of our ToS and CoC.

Note: Nowhere have I said that people cannot use the in-game mechanics to try and force people out of their domain, only that everyone needs to be free to make their picks without hostile intervention.

Hey bud. Without going too in depth into this. This is dumb, you cant tell people here go have a dance then afterwards tell people "Oh no you can only dance the way that I want you to dance."

It gives the allure that you are the type of person and type of studio that invites people over to your house to play with your toys. Then you play with the toys together and as soon as someone says they want to play with your toys in a way that you dont typically enjoy playing with them yourself then they can get the fuck out of your house.

I can say confidently and abruptly that I will use the toolsets that you give me and the mechanics that you give me and I will meta game with my community to use them however we see fit. I will use your toys as we see fit for the benefit of what we want to accomplish as a community. You build the toys, in building the toys you build out what exactly those toys can do in this game. So long as the toy can do it, I get to use it for as long as I am able to, unless you identify it as an exploit that you will fix, however I decide to to play the game how I want to play this game.

Then me saying, point blank, (and I mean this) "I will use the toys you make for this game, the mechanics and systems that are available to me, to burn Caspian's county to the ground in-game with as little punishment to myself and my community as possible."

As per currently discussed mechanics the current plan is very simple. I will not march my troops, I will take my people who want to join me in this endeavor, spark into an alt in the general area of where your county is (wherever it may be located) and then use that group of alts to rouse the NPCs to our side and march those local individuals or "bandits" on Caspian's county in an effort to burn it to the ground with citizens from its own county. Thus even if our alts die or are punished, we dont really care because they are alts and in no way effect our main characters.

If this is now against TOS please feel free to ban me. But also ban every deviant person and group who has threatened the monarchs with assassination. Also ban Bombastus and his community for threatening to raid Nimb to take the Sun Stone from him. Or maybe just realize that what you are saying is dumb and take it back with an apology to your community for saying something that made them think you are going to change this game immensely because you dont like people playing a certain way in your "MEOW".

I also expect others to do this exact same thing to me in my city, and to everyone else in my community in our community areas because this is the meta you have created with your design and until it has been fixed to where I cant do this then I will find another way to do it. :-)

This is how gamers work, this will always be how gamers work.

Pledged to the betterment of the Studio and CoE through realistic, open, honest communication about what players can and will do with the toys you give them.

I think there was a crucial part to Caspian's post which was the 'Note' at the end. In no way is he saying that you can't attempt to take someone's domain or that your account will be punished for doing so. But yeah, sliding into someone's DM's on discord and outright threatening, harassing, and trying to coerce them out of a decision is not the Dance. That's just harassment to the person, not the character. I think you're jumping the gun a bit Adam. Nothing in his post indicated to me that you can't let it be known that randoms could face in game consequences. That's a pretty standard stance across the kingdoms from what I've seen, even if I don't agree with it. But that's not the same as someone tracking someone down in discord and sending them messages like "I will f**king destroy u and ruin ur play experience and make u regret spending $500 for placing in MY lands u pleb. I will take it all from u gg git rekt". That's been going around and no, that's not the Dance of Dynasties and yeah that kind of behavior is harassment. I think it's important Caspian highlighted there is a redline to be crossed since basic human decency is all too easy to throw out the window when people are disconnected from one another through screens and virtual reality.

I could be wrong as he wasn't terribly specific but I would think Caspian's message is to draw the difference between a "Hey, our kingdom policy is to treat you as hostile in game if the appropriate channels are not notified at one point or another before or after placing" and the aforementioned extreme example of a threatening DM on Discord or another forum.

ZeroCool - 1 month ago
@Evanuris:

Posted By Evanuris at 02:37 AM - Sun Sep 08 2019

I think you're jumping the gun a bit Adam. Nothing in his post indicated to me that you can't let it be known that randoms could face in game consequences. That's a pretty standard stance across the kingdoms from what I've seen, even if I don't agree with it. But that's not the same as someone tracking someone down in discord and sending them messages like "I will f**king destroy u and ruin ur play experience and make u regret spending $500 for placing in MY lands u pleb. I will take it all from u gg git rekt". That's been going around and no, that's not the Dance of Dynasties and yeah that kind of behavior is harassment.

That’s exactly how I interpreted Casps post. Funny how a bunch of people can read the same thing and hear two/multiple stances.

I’m not saying my interpretation is the correct one, just that’s how it read to me.

Charlie George - 1 month ago
@Evanuris:

Posted By Evanuris at 8:37 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

I could be wrong as he wasn't terribly specific but I would think Caspian's message is to draw the difference between a "Hey, our kingdom policy is to treat you as hostile in game if the appropriate channels are not notified at one point or another before or after placing" and the aforementioned extreme example of a threatening DM on Discord or another forum.

I would be very interested to see a response on this from SbS because this is not at all how it was received, even when it was being discussed live with the devs over discord.

I walked away with the impression that posts involving in game consequences for DSS placement was against the studio's policy. It was the act of signaling intent that was considered toxic, but acts of aggression in live play remained acceptable.

There were many analogies to card games and house rules to further clarify the studio stance that left me at least with very little wiggle room to think otherwise.

I'm not here to make value judgments on rules. I firmly believe a studio has a right to set whatever rules they think they need to. It's their game to design as they wish. In the end the consumers (myself included) can decide whether what we are left with is enough for fun competitive atmosphere.

What I am interested in is if there was a retraction from a harsher metagaming stance, I read the message wrong, or I heard it correctly and you are just mistaken.

Evanuris - 1 month ago
@Charlie George:

Posted By Charlie George at 9:51 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Evanuris at 8:37 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

I could be wrong as he wasn't terribly specific but I would think Caspian's message is to draw the difference between a "Hey, our kingdom policy is to treat you as hostile in game if the appropriate channels are not notified at one point or another before or after placing" and the aforementioned extreme example of a threatening DM on Discord or another forum.

I would be very interested to see a response on this from SbS because this is not at all how it was received, even when it was being discussed live with the devs over discord.

I walked away with the impression that posts involving in game consequences for DSS placement was against the studio's policy. It was the act of signaling intent that was considered toxic, but acts of aggression in live play remained acceptable.

There were many analogies to card games and house rules to further clarify the studio stance that left me at least with very little wiggle room to think otherwise.

I'm not here to make value judgments on rules. I firmly believe a studio has a right to set whatever rules they think they need to. It's their game to design as they wish. In the end the consumers (myself included) can decide whether what we are left with is enough for fun competitive atmosphere.

What I am interested in is if there was a retraction from a harsher metagaming stance, I read the message wrong, or I heard it correctly and you are just mistaken.

I wasn't privy to the discord conversation so in that case it seems I am wrong and stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification.

That -is- a rather harsh stance and I better see Adam's points now. We don't have personas yet so...it's just this. I was under the impression from previous statements from the studio that such things WERE part of the dance but I guess was wrong about that too.

On that note, if it's their TOS I'm not going to push it personally and put my own stuff at risk. That being said, I would like to see further clarification from the studio now because that's kind of important.

Beathan - 1 month ago
@Charlie George:

Posted By Charlie George at 6:51 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Evanuris at 8:37 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

I could be wrong as he wasn't terribly specific but I would think Caspian's message is to draw the difference between a "Hey, our kingdom policy is to treat you as hostile in game if the appropriate channels are not notified at one point or another before or after placing" and the aforementioned extreme example of a threatening DM on Discord or another forum.

I would be very interested to see a response on this from SbS because this is not at all how it was received, even when it was being discussed live with the devs over discord.

I walked away with the impression that posts involving in game consequences for DSS placement was against the studio's policy. It was the act of signaling intent that was considered toxic, but acts of aggression in live play remained acceptable.

There were many analogies to card games and house rules to further clarify the studio stance that left me at least with very little wiggle room to think otherwise.

I'm not here to make value judgments on rules. I firmly believe a studio has a right to set whatever rules they think they need to. It's their game to design as they wish. In the end the consumers (myself included) can decide whether what we are left with is enough for fun competitive atmosphere.

What I am interested in is if there was a retraction from a harsher metagaming stance, I read the message wrong, or I heard it correctly and you are just mistaken.

Yep. On Discord, when asked if dukes and kings should just lay in wait and destroy random counts as soon as possible, Caspian said “yes.” That seems like the wrong approach.

Sir Zyr - 1 month ago
@Beathan:

Posted By Beathan at 6:56 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Charlie George at 6:51 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Evanuris at 8:37 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

I could be wrong as he wasn't terribly specific but I would think Caspian's message is to draw the difference between a "Hey, our kingdom policy is to treat you as hostile in game if the appropriate channels are not notified at one point or another before or after placing" and the aforementioned extreme example of a threatening DM on Discord or another forum.

I would be very interested to see a response on this from SbS because this is not at all how it was received, even when it was being discussed live with the devs over discord.

I walked away with the impression that posts involving in game consequences for DSS placement was against the studio's policy. It was the act of signaling intent that was considered toxic, but acts of aggression in live play remained acceptable.

There were many analogies to card games and house rules to further clarify the studio stance that left me at least with very little wiggle room to think otherwise.

I'm not here to make value judgments on rules. I firmly believe a studio has a right to set whatever rules they think they need to. It's their game to design as they wish. In the end the consumers (myself included) can decide whether what we are left with is enough for fun competitive atmosphere.

What I am interested in is if there was a retraction from a harsher metagaming stance, I read the message wrong, or I heard it correctly and you are just mistaken.

Yep. On Discord, when asked if dukes and kings should just lay in wait and destroy random counts as soon as possible, Caspian said “yes.” That seems like the wrong approach.

In that case, though, I see that as a matter of enforcement. They can't see into the kings' heads so they can't really know what they're planning and enforce anything against that so they may as well allow it.

Otoh, I expect randoms to band together to defend themselves against a hostile king/duke/count and perhaps rally the npcs to fight against said noble attacking them for poorly defined and perhaps unjust in-game reasons. Should be fun to watch

Arisilde - 1 month ago
@Caspian:

Posted By Caspian at 3:48 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

And in case there's any question, threatening, intimidating, or harassing other players, or in any way communicating that you intend to make their play experience poorer as a result of their D&SS pick is not the Dance of Dynasties. That's simply bullying and is viewed as a violation of our ToS and CoC.

Note: Nowhere have I said that people cannot use the in-game mechanics to try and force people out of their domain, only that everyone needs to be free to make their picks without hostile intervention.

So what you're saying here is these communities are free to take this aggressive stance, but not let people know. So you would rather people drop in with no warning into a place that is sure to get them stomped on by a larger force, when that larger force is just trying to do them a favor by letting them know what will happen ahead of time if they should do so?

Is it really bullying when it's not a threat, simply fair warning of a fact? I feel like it's a positive public service personally. It's preventing future unnecessary negativity by giving people the information they need to make educated decisions.

What you are in essence saying here is you would prefer people waste their money by dropping their domains in a doomed location, rather than allowing people to give fair warning of these situations to prevent problems for both groups. Take a look at the groups making these claims. They are big enough to back them up. So these situations are going to happen either way, you're just removing the positive way these groups can handle the situation by making them unable to warn people.

This is criminally short sighted.

Because that's exactly what these announcements are. The people making these announcements are not bullying, because they do not have ill intent. They don't necessarily want to ruin the play of anyone, but they will to protect their own environment. They are trying to help both themselves and the groups they are warning off have a better experience, rather than just letting the situation be worse both for their own communities, and the ones who dropped in unannounced. How is that a bad thing?

Malais - 1 month ago

To be honest with the reverse auction about to start of course Sbs would point out that the “dance” is just now starting so new folks who might buy a title in said auction wouldn’t feel like it’s a waste of money and they will be a target on day 1.

Reality is sbs has been behind the curve in community building and community progress since the KS. We as a community have repeatedly shown they underestimate and under prepared for what the community would do.

I believe this is the case here. Of course there should be zero RL threats made and there should be an immediate corrective measure taken up to a deletion of the offending account if such things are said.

However if you don’t have a community at this point it is likely you will be at a severe disadvantage regardless of how sbs thinks things will go. You need to reach out and hope you find an accepting home where you don’t create problems for those who have been there since the beginning.

mickdude2 - 1 month ago
@Malais:

Posted By Malais at 4:35 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

I believe this is the case here. Of course there should be zero RL threats made and there should be an immediate corrective measure taken up to a deletion of the offending account if such things are said.

They haven't done anything about everyone who's been doxxed thusfar; why would this change?

mickdude2 - 1 month ago

How SbS wants us to play the game is irrelevant if they don't implement any mechanics to prevent it.

Just like the drama with people voting for maps on servers other than their own- if SbS didn't want us to do it, it would have been disabled.

Welcome to sandbox games.

Marovec - 1 month ago
@mickdude2:

Posted By mickdude2 at 3:47 PM - Sat Sep 07 2019

How SbS wants us to play the game is irrelevant if they don't implement any mechanics to prevent it.

Just like the drama with people voting for maps on servers other than their own- if SbS didn't want us to do it, it would have been disabled.

Welcome to sandbox games.

This, 100%. While I am concerned over the changes they will make over time because "people aren't playing right", nothing, so far, has broken any rules, or even violated intent.

Everyone, SBS included, keeps talking about how "conflict is content" - seems people quickly change their tune when it is conflict they don't like.

Ironside - 1 month ago

The political intrigue of CoE is fairly interesting not only from a gamer stand point, but also in 'real world' fields of study in psychological and political science.

It is very interesting to me how some people behave in digital environments and how the 'Dance' will unfold within the game's landscape. It's like a mini drama-filled political arena where real-life professions, national origin, upbringing, etc, potentially have no play in the political system. For example, a real life farmer could out 'Dance' a heart doctor. You never know!

Hawarth_Hugiz - 1 month ago

In this kind of game the line between OOC/OOG and IC/IG will be very, very blurry, which is why personal attacks already happen and just shouldn’t be taken as such, but rather be accepted as part of the game as it will happen again and again.

We have many playstones here to control. Our characters, our souls and our forum / discord personas are all part of game and you can’t just neatly separate it all from another like in other games, as the strategy expands much further into social media than in other games and feeds right back into to it.

Just like in a box fight, your opponent might attack you verbally out of the ring, just to make you nervous or angry to provoke a mistake of yours inside the ring. It’s gonna happen, it’s a tried and true tactic for ages. Prepare for it.

This, of course, demands from all of us, to constantly keep in mind, that all of this is just a game and it is just about pixels in the end. Accepting that even our out of game personas connected to this game and this game only are game themselves, does not change the fact that personal attacks against our true and IRL selfs are off limits.

In that wondrous realm of reality, we should really try to picture us friends, sitting around a table playing our favorite table top game. If then someone makes a treacherous, hideous move against us, we should all laugh together and applaud them for their deviant energy - and plot our revenge with a smile.

Yes, I know, that’s an ideal. But one worth striving for, methinks.

And another thing...

I consider Earth 1.0 (is it, really?) and the concept of an MEOW both to be infinite games. If you plan to win, you’re playing the wrong game. ;)

Marovec - 1 month ago

@SirZyr

What "sort of behavior"?

Clear and fair warning? And expectation of cooperation with a large existing community? A public statement of intent regarding counts from the ruling duke?

Sure, immediately ostracizing any random that happens to set foot in your land would be unfair, and against the "spirit of play".

But that's not what it happening here, and for someone who seems to be frustrated with people "putting words in their mouth" or being presented with strawman arguments, you seem oddly inclined to do the same.

If people were claiming some type of "you are not in my community, therefore we will immediately attack you" approach, I might see where you are coming from. However, that's not happening either. Most of these posts are from the angle of "we have a community, you are welcome, just reach out".

To maintain the poker reference - these communities (especially the large ones that have filled their domains at the count level), have already chosen the hand they want to play with.

It may not be the best hand, but it is the hand they are betting on. "Forcing" them to take another card, under the guise of "you might get a better hand" is just as "bad" (IMO), as refusing to take another card.

Play how you want. This isn't "harassment", it's simply a desired style of play.

Taymuraz - 1 month ago

This is all great and all, I love the concept and love the RP, stories and art people are producing from this.

The only issue I have is that without any actual game, this has a tendency to cross from character vs character and threats/talks regarding in-game actions, into actual ooc character assassinations, and sometimes very personal rumors and plots. I know this is not the intention of any of this at all, and most of the community are cool.

Someone's character might be that of an untrustworthy person for example, but that does not mean that they personally are such. etc. Yet, the only way to convey this in the community is to attack the real world individual behind the character currently.

If there were some rudimentary contract system that came with personas, or tokens for "Promises" or "Favours" could be traded post D&SS etc. some form of hard mechanic where the results of the wheeling and dealing and in-character backstabbing could play out and have actual tangible in game results down the line, it might give players more of an avenue to let this go forward, without it spilling out into ooc personal issues.

Daynen - 1 month ago

step 1: find furs. step 2: find fan. step 3: wait for it...

Morbis - 1 month ago

Some people reading pretty deep into a post that essentially just says "Hey, remember that this is just a video game, and that whatever happens, keep it that way. No RL threats please!"

Almost as if there has been an upswing in IRL threats recently that needed to be tamped down.

Sir Zyr - 1 month ago

Sorry. I'll make sure my next post if I get a response is from my desktop, so I can keep the multi-quotes down

ShadowTani - 1 month ago
@Sir Zyr:

Posted By Sir Zyr at 10:27 AM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Sorry. I'll make sure my next post if I get a response is from my desktop, so I can keep the multi-quotes down

I can understand if it's on mobile, don't worry, I didn't want to make an unreasonable request. And it's not just you. There only needs to be one in the chain to cut off the spaghetti for the rest to have their multi-quotes cut too, lol. Thank you for understanding though. <3

ShadowTani - 1 month ago

Not to step on anyone's toes here, but it sure would be nice if people learned to edit down their multi-quotes.

Either way, looking forward to what the future brings~

Costanius - 1 month ago

Sounds all great and promising. But whats the status of Alpha 1? Can You elaborate more on that?

Darkax - 1 month ago

Walks into the dance, looks around and a smile spreads across my face. As I turn to leave a drop of mud falls off my boot and I walk on out the door.

Fergus Redbeard - 1 month ago

Love the 'go forth and pummel each other with intrigue diplomacy and violence....and do it with love in your hearts while you do it' mission statement.

Nothing in life and death is guaranteed, except that you will experience both.

Good luck (this is why I will be hiding in a cave)

FASHION - 1 month ago

So is KoE beta 1 and Exposition actually Beta 2 or are these completely unrelated?

Zelcovian - 1 month ago
  • 1 for the use of gubernatorial , as I had to look that up.

also +1 for an off the collar reference with the use of Vanilla Elyria.

:) fun and informative read, thanks

Pham - 1 month ago

Sh*t's gonna hit the fan in Kingdoms of Elyria. Just you wait.

Lodrig - 1 month ago

Um what happened to Beta?

Toc - 1 month ago
@Lodrig:

Still going to happen, just wasn't mentioned this time.

Moonlynx - 1 month ago

Ah, the dance, the black tie and tails, the beautiful ballgowns and jewelry, the orchestra playing in harmony... and then some yokel shows up wearing a cowboy hat and boots requesting "Achy Breaky Heart". Yeah, the dancers who have spent money on their finery and jewelry are going to be upset if the music changes mid-dance. All people have been asking is if you arrive in the middle of the song that you go with the flow and speak to the conductor to see where you can best fit in before you step on someone's toes. No one likes their toes stepped on.

Sir Zyr - 1 month ago
@Moonlynx:

Posted By Moonlynx at 8:51 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

Ah, the dance, the black tie and tails, the beautiful ballgowns and jewelry, the orchestra playing in harmony... and then some yokel shows up wearing a cowboy hat and boots requesting "Achy Breaky Heart". Yeah, the dancers who have spent money on their finery and jewelry are going to be upset if the music changes mid-dance. All people have been asking is if you arrive in the middle of the song that you go with the flow and speak to the conductor to see where you can best fit in before you step on someone's toes. No one likes their toes stepped on.

Except it is an open dance with requests allowed, and potentially granted to those who have paid enough to come in, no matter what the other dancers think, based on how SBS is running it. And it's not like the dance doesn't start and stop, either.

Edit to add: a flexible leader who's willing to work with anyone who they end up with is going to be a lot more successful than one who is rigid about who gets what and will attack anyone who doesn't follow their master plan in DSS or otherwise.

Also, if NPCs see kings, dukes, and/or counts attacking otherwise loyal underlings for poorly defined in-game reasons (remember, as far as the game's NPCs are concerned, nothing on the forum happened), how long until talk of rebellion starts and how long after that until the days of their rule come to a violent end?

edit 2: removed something I felt was overly inflammitory

Marovec - 1 month ago
@Sir Zyr:

Posted By Sir Zyr at 11:57 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

Posted By Moonlynx at 8:51 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

Ah, the dance, the black tie and tails, the beautiful ballgowns and jewelry, the orchestra playing in harmony... and then some yokel shows up wearing a cowboy hat and boots requesting "Achy Breaky Heart". Yeah, the dancers who have spent money on their finery and jewelry are going to be upset if the music changes mid-dance. All people have been asking is if you arrive in the middle of the song that you go with the flow and speak to the conductor to see where you can best fit in before you step on someone's toes. No one likes their toes stepped on.

Except it is an open dance with requests allowed, and potentially granted to those who have paid enough to come in, no matter what the other dancers think, based on how SBS is running it. And it's not like the dance doesn't start and stop, either.

Edit to add: a flexible leader who's willing to work with anyone who they end up with is going to be a lot more successful than one who is rigid about who gets what and will attack anyone who doesn't follow their master plan in DSS or otherwise.

Also, if NPCs see kings, dukes, and/or counts attacking otherwise loyal underlings for poorly defined in-game reasons (remember, as far as the game's NPCs are concerned, nothing on the forum happened), how long until talk of rebellion starts and how long after that until the days of their rule come to a violent end?

edit 2: removed something I felt was overly inflammitory

You can bandy analogies all you want, but at the end of the day, large, organized communities that choose to take a more...exclusionary...stance with their domains, and the "dance", have every right to do so.

Just like you have every right to be as welcoming and inclusive of outsiders as you desire.

Which approach ends up being the "best" is yet to be seen, but both are legitimate approaches to gameplay - each with their own consequences and results.

You seem to take a very strong stance against any type of "closed borders" approach, and that's fine. However, it sometimes seems like you need a reminder that just because you disagree with their approach, doesn't make it "wrong"...

It's just an approach you don't like.

Sir Zyr - 1 month ago
@Marovec:

Posted By Marovec at 10:29 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

Posted By Sir Zyr at 11:57 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

Posted By Moonlynx at 8:51 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

Ah, the dance, the black tie and tails, the beautiful ballgowns and jewelry, the orchestra playing in harmony... and then some yokel shows up wearing a cowboy hat and boots requesting "Achy Breaky Heart". Yeah, the dancers who have spent money on their finery and jewelry are going to be upset if the music changes mid-dance. All people have been asking is if you arrive in the middle of the song that you go with the flow and speak to the conductor to see where you can best fit in before you step on someone's toes. No one likes their toes stepped on.

Except it is an open dance with requests allowed, and potentially granted to those who have paid enough to come in, no matter what the other dancers think, based on how SBS is running it. And it's not like the dance doesn't start and stop, either.

Edit to add: a flexible leader who's willing to work with anyone who they end up with is going to be a lot more successful than one who is rigid about who gets what and will attack anyone who doesn't follow their master plan in DSS or otherwise.

Also, if NPCs see kings, dukes, and/or counts attacking otherwise loyal underlings for poorly defined in-game reasons (remember, as far as the game's NPCs are concerned, nothing on the forum happened), how long until talk of rebellion starts and how long after that until the days of their rule come to a violent end?

edit 2: removed something I felt was overly inflammitory

You can bandy analogies all you want, but at the end of the day, large, organized communities that choose to take a more...exclusionary...stance with their domains, and the "dance", have every right to do so.

Just like you have every right to be as welcoming and inclusive of outsiders as you desire.

Which approach ends up being the "best" is yet to be seen, both both are legitimate approaches to gameplay - each with their own consequences and results.

You seem to take a very strong stance against any type of "closed borders" approach, and that's fine. However, it sometimes seems like a reminder that just because you disagree with their approach, doesn't make it "wrong"...

It's just an approach you don't like.

And if Vye's OP is anything to go by, neither does SBS.

Either way, it wasn't my analogy. I was just correcting Moonlynx's based on the reality

Marovec - 1 month ago
@Sir Zyr:

Posted By Sir Zyr at 01:33 AM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Marovec at 10:29 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

Posted By Sir Zyr at 11:57 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

Posted By Moonlynx at 8:51 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

Ah, the dance, the black tie and tails, the beautiful ballgowns and jewelry, the orchestra playing in harmony... and then some yokel shows up wearing a cowboy hat and boots requesting "Achy Breaky Heart". Yeah, the dancers who have spent money on their finery and jewelry are going to be upset if the music changes mid-dance. All people have been asking is if you arrive in the middle of the song that you go with the flow and speak to the conductor to see where you can best fit in before you step on someone's toes. No one likes their toes stepped on.

Except it is an open dance with requests allowed, and potentially granted to those who have paid enough to come in, no matter what the other dancers think, based on how SBS is running it. And it's not like the dance doesn't start and stop, either.

Edit to add: a flexible leader who's willing to work with anyone who they end up with is going to be a lot more successful than one who is rigid about who gets what and will attack anyone who doesn't follow their master plan in DSS or otherwise.

Also, if NPCs see kings, dukes, and/or counts attacking otherwise loyal underlings for poorly defined in-game reasons (remember, as far as the game's NPCs are concerned, nothing on the forum happened), how long until talk of rebellion starts and how long after that until the days of their rule come to a violent end?

edit 2: removed something I felt was overly inflammitory

You can bandy analogies all you want, but at the end of the day, large, organized communities that choose to take a more...exclusionary...stance with their domains, and the "dance", have every right to do so.

Just like you have every right to be as welcoming and inclusive of outsiders as you desire.

Which approach ends up being the "best" is yet to be seen, both both are legitimate approaches to gameplay - each with their own consequences and results.

You seem to take a very strong stance against any type of "closed borders" approach, and that's fine. However, it sometimes seems like a reminder that just because you disagree with their approach, doesn't make it "wrong"...

It's just an approach you don't like.

And if Vye's OP is anything to go by, neither does SBS.

Either way, it wasn't my analogy. I was just correcting Moonlynx's based on the reality

There's nothing to correct. Her's was accurate from her viewpoint.

Through numerous threads I have seen you target and attack anyone who suggests not welcoming "randoms" with open arms.

I am simply pointing out that while you are obviously welcome to your opinion, it is still an opinion.

Vye's ambiguous allusion to the fact that people should look at "randoms" as a benefit does not mean that anyone who doesn't share that view is doomed to fail (unless they implement hard mechanics), it just means there might be consequences or hurdles to that style of domain management.

No different than people who formed massive multi-domains despite being repeatedly warned by SBS that was not a wise choice.

Given what I know of the communities that are taking the more strict stances...I promise you, they are well aware of the risks, and have communicated their intent "fully informed".

Sir Zyr - 1 month ago
@Marovec:

Posted By Marovec at 10:46 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

Posted By Sir Zyr at 01:33 AM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Marovec at 10:29 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

Posted By Sir Zyr at 11:57 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

Posted By Moonlynx at 8:51 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

Ah, the dance, the black tie and tails, the beautiful ballgowns and jewelry, the orchestra playing in harmony... and then some yokel shows up wearing a cowboy hat and boots requesting "Achy Breaky Heart". Yeah, the dancers who have spent money on their finery and jewelry are going to be upset if the music changes mid-dance. All people have been asking is if you arrive in the middle of the song that you go with the flow and speak to the conductor to see where you can best fit in before you step on someone's toes. No one likes their toes stepped on.

Except it is an open dance with requests allowed, and potentially granted to those who have paid enough to come in, no matter what the other dancers think, based on how SBS is running it. And it's not like the dance doesn't start and stop, either.

Edit to add: a flexible leader who's willing to work with anyone who they end up with is going to be a lot more successful than one who is rigid about who gets what and will attack anyone who doesn't follow their master plan in DSS or otherwise.

Also, if NPCs see kings, dukes, and/or counts attacking otherwise loyal underlings for poorly defined in-game reasons (remember, as far as the game's NPCs are concerned, nothing on the forum happened), how long until talk of rebellion starts and how long after that until the days of their rule come to a violent end?

edit 2: removed something I felt was overly inflammitory

You can bandy analogies all you want, but at the end of the day, large, organized communities that choose to take a more...exclusionary...stance with their domains, and the "dance", have every right to do so.

Just like you have every right to be as welcoming and inclusive of outsiders as you desire.

Which approach ends up being the "best" is yet to be seen, both both are legitimate approaches to gameplay - each with their own consequences and results.

You seem to take a very strong stance against any type of "closed borders" approach, and that's fine. However, it sometimes seems like a reminder that just because you disagree with their approach, doesn't make it "wrong"...

It's just an approach you don't like.

And if Vye's OP is anything to go by, neither does SBS.

Either way, it wasn't my analogy. I was just correcting Moonlynx's based on the reality

There's nothing to correct. Her's was accurate from her viewpoint.

Through numerous threads I have seen you target and attack anyone who suggests not welcoming "randoms" with open arms.

I am simply pointing out that while you are obviously welcome to your opinion, it is still an opinion.

Vye's ambiguous allusion to the fact that people should look at "randoms" as a benefit does not mean that anyone who doesn't share that view is doomed to fail (unless they implement hard mechanics), it just means there might be consequences or hurdles to that style of domain management.

No different than people who formed massive multi-domains despite being repeatedly warned by SBS that was not a wise choice.

Given what I know of the communities that are taking the more strict stances...I promise you, they are well aware of the risks, and have communicated their intent "fully informed".

Attacking them? Eyeroll

Attacking them would be making statements against their person. I did nothing of the sort (aside from one person who kept thinking me upset for some reason and I called tone deaf partly in response and later accused of projecting, see how I hate having words put in my mouth). I did, nowever, attack their arguments and explained why I was things the way I did and why I thought they were bad and would hurt the game which is entirely different. but please, keep making baseless accusations against me. If I did engage in personal attacks, report them to the mods.

Also, fourth paragraph (I'm on tablet and block quoting is a headache with it), don't put word in my mouth. I never said that, but this is hardly the first time someone strawmanned me on this topic and it's tiring (and that is not an attack on you but your flawed argument against one I did not make but why is easier to beat than the next I did). All I said was that, and let me emphasize for you so you can't straw man me again, SBS is saying that this sort of behavior against randoms is not what they want and may cause unnecessary drama, especially if harassment takes place, not whether or not it will work.

Also her perception and the perception promoted by sbs were at extreme odds, and I simply pointed it the discrepancy between her analogy and the reality of how dss works. Or are you saying reality is subjective now? Because if it's right from her point of view but wrong in fact, then lo and behold, she's wrong and I've seen nothing from you or her to suggest her point of view is correct in reality

Moonlynx - 1 month ago
@Sir Zyr:

Posted By Sir Zyr at 01:41 AM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Marovec at 10:46 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

Posted By Sir Zyr at 01:33 AM - Sat Sep 07 2019

Posted By Marovec at 10:29 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

Posted By Sir Zyr at 11:57 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

Posted By Moonlynx at 8:51 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

Ah, the dance, the black tie and tails, the beautiful ballgowns and jewelry, the orchestra playing in harmony... and then some yokel shows up wearing a cowboy hat and boots requesting "Achy Breaky Heart". Yeah, the dancers who have spent money on their finery and jewelry are going to be upset if the music changes mid-dance. All people have been asking is if you arrive in the middle of the song that you go with the flow and speak to the conductor to see where you can best fit in before you step on someone's toes. No one likes their toes stepped on.

Except it is an open dance with requests allowed, and potentially granted to those who have paid enough to come in, no matter what the other dancers think, based on how SBS is running it. And it's not like the dance doesn't start and stop, either.

Edit to add: a flexible leader who's willing to work with anyone who they end up with is going to be a lot more successful than one who is rigid about who gets what and will attack anyone who doesn't follow their master plan in DSS or otherwise.

Also, if NPCs see kings, dukes, and/or counts attacking otherwise loyal underlings for poorly defined in-game reasons (remember, as far as the game's NPCs are concerned, nothing on the forum happened), how long until talk of rebellion starts and how long after that until the days of their rule come to a violent end?

edit 2: removed something I felt was overly inflammitory

You can bandy analogies all you want, but at the end of the day, large, organized communities that choose to take a more...exclusionary...stance with their domains, and the "dance", have every right to do so.

Just like you have every right to be as welcoming and inclusive of outsiders as you desire.

Which approach ends up being the "best" is yet to be seen, both both are legitimate approaches to gameplay - each with their own consequences and results.

You seem to take a very strong stance against any type of "closed borders" approach, and that's fine. However, it sometimes seems like a reminder that just because you disagree with their approach, doesn't make it "wrong"...

It's just an approach you don't like.

And if Vye's OP is anything to go by, neither does SBS.

Either way, it wasn't my analogy. I was just correcting Moonlynx's based on the reality

There's nothing to correct. Her's was accurate from her viewpoint.

Through numerous threads I have seen you target and attack anyone who suggests not welcoming "randoms" with open arms.

I am simply pointing out that while you are obviously welcome to your opinion, it is still an opinion.

Vye's ambiguous allusion to the fact that people should look at "randoms" as a benefit does not mean that anyone who doesn't share that view is doomed to fail (unless they implement hard mechanics), it just means there might be consequences or hurdles to that style of domain management.

No different than people who formed massive multi-domains despite being repeatedly warned by SBS that was not a wise choice.

Given what I know of the communities that are taking the more strict stances...I promise you, they are well aware of the risks, and have communicated their intent "fully informed".

Attacking them? Eyeroll

Attacking them would be making statements against their person. I did nothing of the sort (aside from one person who kept thinking me upset for some reason and I called tone deaf partly in response and later accused of projecting, see how I hate having words put in my mouth). I did, nowever, attack their arguments and explained why I was things the way I did and why I thought they were bad and would hurt the game which is entirely different. but please, keep making baseless accusations against me. If I did engage in personal attacks, report them to the mods.

Also, fourth paragraph (I'm on tablet and block quoting is a headache with it), don't put word in my mouth. I never said that, but this is hardly the first time someone strawmanned me on this topic and it's tiring (and that is not an attack on you but your flawed argument against one I did not make but why is easier to beat than the next I did). All I said was that, and let me emphasize for you so you can't straw man me again, SBS is saying that this sort of behavior against randoms is not what they want and may cause unnecessary drama, especially if harassment takes place, not whether or not it will work.

Also her perception and the perception promoted by sbs were at extreme odds, and I simply pointed it the discrepancy between her analogy and the reality of how dss works. Or are you saying reality is subjective now? Because if it's right from her point of view but wrong in fact, then lo and behold, she's wrong and I've seen nothing from you or her to suggest her point of view is correct in reality

I am only wrong in your opinion. The fact remains that SBS changed the rules on which tribe you can be long after many of us had backed it in Kickstarter. THAT IS FACT!!!! Therefore, there are limited places for someone who wants a specific tribe and has a title to go. THAT IS FACT!!!! So, yes, some communities are protecting their people, which is the way they should be. It isn't saying that they don't want random people to settle, but they don't want the random people who disrupt the community plans. They want the random people to, OMG, talk to the leaders to minimize the impact. Thank Gods. At least someone is looking out for the early backers. What is so difficult to understand?

Dekul33 - 1 month ago
@Sir Zyr:

No gaurantee they would get it for free... they have to work for it. How they go about that is their business as long as it is within the game mechanics. All titles are subject to being lost... if someone works hard enough to start a war they can.

I don't think a lot of these hostilities will last during the long period after DSS and before the game begins, but for those who really want their spot... well that's a good enough reason to go take it.

Takeda_Shinukage - 1 month ago

Don't think of those members who join your domain now as intruding on what you already have. Instead, think of them as the missing cards to an otherwise incomplete set.

Unless you mechanically stop people from doing this, this is going to happen. Either a hard mechanical rework on how a CB is acquired or making it so that at launch tech / resources are not viable to just start sieging people. Without something mechanical, asking someone not to do something won't work.

Lord_Greystoke - 1 month ago

So...when is Alpha 1?

Sir Zyr - 1 month ago
@Lord_Greystoke:

Posted By Lord_Greystoke at 8:14 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

So...when is Alpha 1?

I don't think they're ready to set a hard date yet, considering the whole mess about announcing D&SS's original date well before it was actually ready.

If I had to guess, though, I'd say early to mid 2020 (though I may be overoptimistic)

Jezzda - 1 month ago
@Sir Zyr:

I'd say that early to mid 2020 is more pessimistic than anything. Alpha is the next stage right after the Dutch auction after D&SS. If Alpha 1 doesn't start at the end of November/December, it'll be after they come back from their holiday, at the beginning of 2020. They've been working on Alpha 1 during all of the preparation for D&SS, don't forget. This isn't something they're only now starting to work on.

Veteran - 1 month ago

Motivational.

Sad... all the drama I am reading on the forums lately.

Thank you.

Medussa - 1 month ago

Let the Games begin for real

sapphicmoon - 1 month ago

is there any way for bloodline holders (although i later added a mayor title from the sister-town bundle, if that matters) can upgrade to Alpha 1? Bloodline was the highest available at the time i bought it

Jezzda - 1 month ago
@sapphicmoon:

Sadly, no you can't. The a la carte purchase of Alpha 1 has been taken off of the store, along with all the packages that included it. At the moment you can only purchase Alpha 2, Beta 1 and Beta 2.

Higuy333 - 1 month ago
@sapphicmoon:

Posted By sapphicmoon at 9:58 PM - Fri Sep 06 2019

is there any way for bloodline holders (although i later added a mayor title from the sister-town bundle, if that matters) can upgrade to Alpha 1? Bloodline was the highest available at the time i bought it

Yes. There is alpha/beta access available in the shop. I too am a bloodline holder and I also bought the mayor upgrade along with alpha 1 access.

Focii - 1 month ago
@Higuy333:

If you don't already have Alpha 1 access it was removed from the store some time ago. Currently the soonest phase you can enter through the store is alpha 2.

Sildadia - 1 month ago

Until someone decides that you don't get the above features, then immediately starts selling a solution to the problem they created when they take them away.

Jezzda - 1 month ago
@Sildadia:

???????????

Drudge - 1 month ago

Any rough timeline of when those stages are planned? Are we talking 2020 release? 2021? Beyond?

Jezzda - 1 month ago
@Drudge:

My educated guess for Alpha 1 would be Q1 2020.

Pham - 1 month ago
@Drudge:

My educated guess is by Q4 2020, but that is not official information.

Abelard - 1 month ago

Quick typo note: 'state' should be 'stage' in the Exposition section. Thanks so much for the write-up!

Aemon_Blackfyre - 1 month ago

Let the dance continue

CalenotKale - 1 month ago

I'm very excited at this! I plan on being a character that takes all this history and writing it down! I cant wait to see the stories unfold and be recorded!

Grizzly1 - 1 month ago

Things are feeling more 'Real" with DSS underway. A definite feeling of optimism after reading a post like this one

Xarkfleur - 1 month ago

thanks for this Vye!!

Mostor - 1 month ago

Lit

evandarksky - 1 month ago

This gon' be gud

Draguta - 1 month ago

Awesome write-up!

I notice that the betas aren't included. Are they still planned testing phases?

ZariusFontaine - 1 month ago

awesome write up thank you