Horse armour might seem something rather obvious but yet in real life there are few surviving examples of metal horse barding. That is due to the fact the technology to create the large, shaped iron/steel plates needed for the armour (see the crupper or shafron, large shaped pieces to cover the hind quarters and head respectively).
Shafron
Crupper
Instead the most common form of barding was cloth Caparisons, these could be quite thick and would interrupt sword blows, mitigate bludgeoning attacks and provide some protection against spears.
Caparisons come in many forms ranging from essentially thin sheets to thick quilted padded armour.
Caparisons are cheap and easy to make, very useful for showing off wealth, prestige and where you belong!
Caparisons are also fitted exactly like rugs so they are easy to put on the horse, cause little interference and are cheap.
So the overwhelming amount of barding I see occurring at least in the beginning of the game would be Caparisons and Padded/Quilted armour.
There is also a factor of the effect on the horse that barding has, heavy plate armour on the horse would cause the horse to overheat very quickly, lose much of their agility and speed. It is arguable if they lose some of their charge potential because of the armour.
This is because even though the horse has a bit more mass the horse moves more slowly compared to a horse that has just has quilted or no armour at all.
So here is how I see cavalry being split in terms of armour;
Horses that are used as lancers, shock cavalry, raiders etc.. will have little or no armour.
Horses that are used as melee cavalry would have armour as that will make them last longer than the other forms of cavalry but that could mean they are vulnerable to other cavalry as they can catch up and have much more endurance than the armoured cavalry.
That is why in my opinion that metal barding should not be in at launch with the exception of small chainmail coverings that cover the essential parts of the horse so essentially a rug of chainmail but it would be a time intensive, resource intensive and expensive procedure in creating such an item and as such only very wealthy or important mounted fighters would have the mail. The same applies to other form of non-plate metal armour such as Scale armour (which should be researched).
An example of quilted armour.
There are multiple components to horse barding and it should in my opinion that it should follow the modular system of normal armour so there are different components and layers.
I would love to have a discussion on Horse Barding (and barding for mounts in general).
Till next time - Horse Lord Varuian Maulvorn
Lord General Cornwallis: [referring to a replacement formal coat] It's horse blanket.
Colonel William Tavington: Oh, I don't know, my Lord. It's really... quite nice.
General O'Hara: Very nice, my Lord.
Lord General Cornwallis: Very well, it's nice horse blanket.
Nice thread :D Really great to find experts in the field!
Posted By DarioZ at 08:59 AM - Wed Jul 26 2017
Lord General Cornwallis: [referring to a replacement formal coat] It's horse blanket.
Colonel William Tavington: Oh, I don't know, my Lord. It's really... quite nice.
General O'Hara: Very nice, my Lord.
Lord General Cornwallis: Very well, it's nice horse blanket.
Nice thread :D Really great to find experts in the field!
Thank you, although I am not an expert in the historical Barding but I do have a learned opinion about Horse behaviour and modern equipment and as such I can use that coupled with research to find answers using my current expertise.
Posted By Maulvorn at
Instead the most common form of barding was cloth Caparisons, these could be quite thick and would interrupt sword blows, mitigate bludgeoning attacks and provide some protection against spears.
Could you elaborate on how protective you estimate it to be? To make clear why I am asking: yes it provides some protection against spears, but this 'some' is very close to none.
I think metal armor for atleast the horses front is very important, so your mount isn't just killed during a charge, so something for the head, and something for the chest. The rest is comparatively unimportant. Maybe some armor for the front legs aswell.
I think this is generally true for the mounts you'd use for classic cavalry charges, but less so for those unfit for that role. They'd require a more complete protection IMO.
The truth is born in argument
TLDR if you don't like reading lots: over time cavalry armour has come and gone, and its use depends very much on cost and tactics. If your enemy does not use horses, you are less likely to use them yourself. That is possibly highly relevant to the Tribes.
Armour ranges over: - heavy blanket - leather - boiled leather - boiled leather with metal plates sewn on - metal scale horse armour - metal plates added on over any of the above - full plate armour. - then all the way back to "let's not, we need the mobility more."
Also when you see heavy armor + horses + bows in pictures, sometimes the actual tactical use was get off the horse and fight as infantry.
Biggest problem other than cost is horses strong enough to carry the rider and all the weight. Big warhorses eventually got bred for / selected as destrier, such as Percheron and Shire.
This image matches what I've read previously about Early Roman cavalry (no stirrups, no horse armor, no bows, sheepskin 4 horned saddles):
I completely agree to begin armour on mounts should be very rare - after all, cavalry was very expensive compared to infantry, and armour on top of that not only gets hard to make and maintain, it would cost a fortune too.
This is a nice drawing of much later cavalry - light horse to chase down infantry etc, and a noble with comparison with added armor for the horse's head, which is a trade off between speed, endurance, and protection.
Cataphractii (various spellings) like the one below are older than medieval knights, but again were limited by cost - and very importantly, by having enough big strong horses to carry the weight of it all.
As I understand it, Clibanarii used heavy leather with plates added on, rather than scale male plates (above).
A useful point in all this is that cavalry tended to rise and fall over history based on "who just did what." Based on one treatise, the Romans losing in 378 to the Goths when Gothic cavalry crushed the left flank of the Roman infantry army led to the introduction of "can do anything" Roman Cavalry, who had a bow, lance, and sword, and could dismount and fight on foot instead if needed; another author considered the increase in use of cavalry by Rome to be because they encountered the Huns.
Also as time went on ... metal got cheaper. 1450 Persian:
By the 16th Century, they were just getting downright fancy ... if you had the money.
What your enemy was up to also influenced weapons - when the other guys were just as well armored, maces came into play for cavalry.
For completeness, "Then someone invented gunpowder" ... and armour went right back to "minimal" to preserve mobility - heavy gauntlets, cuirass, helmet, and good boots. Poor horsie got just a blanket and at best sabretache.
So anyone who fights things that don't do short ranged slashing attacks, and don't use arrows, would likely go for mobility cavalry.
If your enemy uses lots of arrows, then some form of heavy plate would be the historical answer (as much as you can get). If your enemy likes axes, then lances are good (reach). If your enemy uses light cavalry, then swords are good as well as more armour - but not too much so you can still melee. And then the old faithful ... get as many heavy horses with as much armour as you can get, and charge to shock and smash the center of the enemy line. Just don't do it on a muddy field after rain ;p
Posted By Luminios at 10:00 AM - Wed Jul 26 2017
Posted By Maulvorn at
Instead the most common form of barding was cloth Caparisons, these could be quite thick and would interrupt sword blows, mitigate bludgeoning attacks and provide some protection against spears.
Could you elaborate on how protective you estimate it to be? To make clear why I am asking: yes it provides some protection against spears, but this 'some' is very close to none.
Some is better then none, depends on where the spear stabs, thickness of the quilt, if it stabs the breast area which could have a hardened leather breastplate over it, it could stop the spear but if it is flat on the barrel, then sure it would do damage but ideally wouldn't stay still.
It is about mitigating the damage to the horse it could mean the difference between the spear going fully in and only going half-way in.
But against slashing or bludgeoning weapons? much more effective.
Posted By Lady Grace at 10:04 AM - Wed Jul 26 2017
TLDR if you don't like reading lots: over time cavalry armour has come and gone, and its use depends very much on cost and tactics. If your enemy does not use horses, you are less likely to use them yourself. That is possibly highly relevant to the Tribes.
Armour ranges over: - heavy blanket - leather - boiled leather - boiled leather with metal plates sewn on - metal scale horse armour - metal plates added on over any of the above - full plate armour. - then all the way back to "let's not, we need the mobility more."
Also when you see heavy armor + horses + bows in pictures, sometimes the actual tactical use was get off the horse and fight as infantry.
Biggest problem other than cost is horses strong enough to carry the rider and all the weight. Big warhorses eventually got bred for / selected as destrier, such as Percheron and Shire.
This image matches what I've read previously about Early Roman cavalry (no stirrups, no horse armor, no bows, sheepskin 4 horned saddles):
I completely agree to begin armour on mounts should be very rare - after all, cavalry was very expensive compared to infantry, and armour on top of that not only gets hard to make and maintain, it would cost a fortune too.
This is a nice drawing of much later cavalry - light horse to chase down infantry etc, and a noble with comparison with added armor for the horse's head, which is a trade off between speed, endurance, and protection.
Cataphractii (various spellings) like the one below are older than medieval knights, but again were limited by cost - and very importantly, by having enough big strong horses to carry the weight of it all.
As I understand it, Clibanarii used heavy leather with plates added on, rather than scale male plates (above).
A useful point in all this is that cavalry tended to rise and fall over history based on "who just did what." Based on one treatise, the Romans losing in 378 to the Goths when Gothic cavalry crushed the left flank of the Roman infantry army led to the introduction of "can do anything" Roman Cavalry, who had a bow, lance, and sword, and could dismount and fight on foot instead if needed; another author considered the increase in use of cavalry by Rome to be because they encountered the Huns.
Also as time went on ... metal got cheaper. 1450 Persian:
By the 16th Century, they were just getting downright fancy ... if you had the money.
What your enemy was up to also influenced weapons - when the other guys were just as well armored, maces came into play for cavalry.
For completeness, "Then someone invented gunpowder" ... and armour went right back to "minimal" to preserve mobility - heavy gauntlets, cuirass, helmet, and good boots. Poor horsie got just a blanket and at best sabretache.
So anyone who fights things that don't do short ranged slashing attacks, and don't use arrows, would likely go for mobility cavalry.
I agree entirely it all depends on the situation that you are facing in terms of economics and the tactics of the day.
I think for a long while Light or "medium" cavalry will be the main mounted forces you would most likely face as they are a good balance between cost and what you want them for, flanking, screening, opportunistic charges etc..
I just came in to say I love this Post. Please carry on with educated speculations and Ideasmithing. I hope the Dev's catch on to some of what is discussed here.
Posted By Nakhum at 10:43 AM - Wed Jul 26 2017
I just came in to say I love this Post. Please carry on with educated speculations and Ideasmithing. I hope the Dev's catch on to some of what is discussed here.
Me too, I thoroughly enjoy this sort of thing.
@Maulvorn
Another great thread. I can tell this is a topic near and dear to your heart.
Posted By Marovec at 1:13 PM - Wed Jul 26 2017
@Maulvorn
Another great thread. I can tell this is a topic near and dear to your heart.
Indeed it is and I am spreading that passion throughout CoE.
Importantly of course ... let's not forget "classic Medieval armour".
One day, I shall have the money to travel to Russia, and spend a week delighting in viewing the collections in the Hermitage Museum in St Peterburg. For now, this is as close as I can get ...
The one on the left is what I think of as "German", mainly because ... Kunz Lochner, Nuremberg, 1548:
Note carefully the doubled straps on the bridle, one higher, one lower, so it is less likely both will be easily cut in a single swing. Now that is a tech advancement waiting to happen for Neran cavalry!
Also note the undercloth poking out on the lower lip of the peytral on the plastic horse on the right. Metal should never be on skin, neither on rider nor horse, because owwwww over time if it rubs, and owwwwww ow ow with no padding to absorb the shock of a blow.
And then ... 1450, Italian:
Now that would have been absurdly expensive then, heck it would be absurdly expensive to make now. It fits so closely that it was probably made for a particular horse, likely someone very, very rich.
And about that weight ... "just the front" was an option, after all that is where you want the bad guys to stay. Behind you is never good.
Not only does this armour look good, it adds an intermediary step between fully plated and comparison only horse armours. I really want this armour in Elyria, even if we have to research it first!
Outstanding article on Barding and the different types/levels of armor. Cavalry was a high expense portion of the ongoing arms race at the time. You see the equivalent still going on with tanks today. A seesaw of vehicle armor versus anti tank warfare.
Early cavalry were foot troops mounted for extra mobility.
Skirmish light cavalry was used to scout and screen main army movements. They could skirmish in front of the main army to cover advances, protect flanks or cover retreats. Usually with little to no armor, Javelins and light spears normally used used to pursue broken enemy formations.
Light to medium cavalry was issued a light lance (used as a Spear if on foot). They carried other hand weapons and a shield. Depending on the army and what they faced light to medium armor would be used. This sort of cavalry was expected to outflank enemy formations to attack flanks or rear.
Shock Cavalry carried a heavy lance and shield. They also carried a variety of hand weapons depending on the armies standards. This form of cavalry almost always was close order formations. Armor varied from Medium to extra heavy. Horses wore Barding equal to the troops in protection.
Horse Archers, Horse Handgunners (Dragoons) were generally fast nimble mounts. Mounts used little barding. The rider's armor was protective of their fronts but little otherwise. These troops would attack flanks and rear of an enemy army. However, they would stay at range at all times to avoid getting attacked in return.
Technology advances and armies facing the challenge of vastly different types of armies would cause changes in the use of their cavalry.
Governor of Fararo, In service to Duchess Hela and Duke Nimb Zephyr of The Anemoi and their TRM King Evelake Rhyne and Queen Lagertha Rhyne of Vornair. Join the Dance of Destiny because 'Winter is Coming.' Friend code: 3F53D0
Indeed, the usage of horses adapted to the standards and Modus Operandi of the day.
I know this is about horses, but what about armor for other beasts of war and support?
The Trison would be formidable on the battlefield and the Ursaphant would be good for supply caravans and siege equipment potentially.
NA-West Barony Corvoviste | Founder of the Farstriders | FC: DAF200
Posted By Rhonynn Farstrider at 05:43 AM - Fri Jul 28 2017
I know this is about horses, but what about armor for other beasts of war and support?
The Trison would be formidable on the battlefield and the Ursaphant would be good for supply caravans and siege equipment potentially.
I would imagine it be similar to war elephants.