I really hope you will be a smith in game. I look forward to Luminios Weaponry being all over Elyria.
The truth is born in argument
Since we have dealt with a lot of physics lately, now to something a bit more easily digestable, but maybe even more important than the science:
How much all this stuff weighs ...
As I said, this might be especially important because there has repeatedly been confusion about the weight of arms and armour in threads on this forum, not only lately, but for quite some time.
This thread will have lots of pictures ... enjoy ;)
Most of the axes I found weights for are between 0.8 kg and 1 kg, with the lightest one being the example you can see above with 0.74 kg, while the heaviest was at 1.2 kg.
For daggers I found three weight groups: 0.2-0.3 kg for rondel, and ordinary daggers, 0.3 kg to a bit over 0.5 kg for parrying daggers, and 0.5-0.7 kg for cinquedeas, which are basically the link from long daggers to short swords.
Maces measured from 1.25 kg to 1.55 kg with the outliers being as light as 0.86 kg or as heavy as 1.67 kg.
Rapiers became heavier as their hilt became more and more developed. While early rapiers are as light as 1 kg, later examples usually fall between 1.2 kg and 1.4 kg. Of the 40 rapiers I looked up, 7 weighed more than 1.5 kg, with two being at 1.57 kg.
Swords are a truly all over the place. From short swords lighter than the aforementioned cinquedeas (0.68 kg) to ones, that are even heavier than maces (1.69 kg). Most of them are 1-1.5 kg though.
Sadly I didn't find as many warhammers, but the examples I did find ranged from 1.2 kg to slightly over 1.5 kg.
For dane axes and similar long axes, the weight is between just slightly under 1 kg (0.96 kg), up to close to 2 kg (1.92 kg). Most of them are around 1.35 kg.
Longswords also cover a wide range of weights, from as low as 1.16 kg up to a bit more than 2kg, with a single (complex hilted) example weighing as much as 3.13 kg. Most of them are in the area of 1.3 kg to 1.6 kg.
For polearms the span of weights that regularly occur is quite big, after all there are many different types of polearms. Bills are between 2.5 kg and 3 kg, for the most part, while halberds usually weigh between 2.8 kg and 3.3 kg. Other types of polearm range from a bit over 2 kg, to ...
Pollaxes which are usually 3.15 kg to 3.75 kg.
Last but not least twohanded greatsword ...
They group up around two different weights: Montantes are a bit lighter with an average of 2.35 kg, while the bigger swords used in other parts of europe are around 3.35 kg, though at times it is difficult to seperate the heavier examples from bearing swords, that were never intended for combat.
A similar thread about armor should come about in the near future.
The truth is born in argument
I really hope you will be a smith in game. I look forward to Luminios Weaponry being all over Elyria.
I guess I should start designing a makers mark.
The truth is born in argument
Were one handed axes really only about as heavy as one handed swords? Not a pro in this topic by any means, but to me it'd seem that because the metal blade on a sword is longer, it'd weigh more.
Ehhh.
Friend Code: 9AA6A4
Posted By Desophyr at 5:18 PM - Tue Aug 22 2017
Were one handed axes really only about as heavy as one handed swords? Not a pro in this topic by any means, but to me it'd seem that because the metal blade on a sword is longer, it'd weigh more.
Longer yes, but very thin compared to an axe.
Posted By Luminios at 08:05 AM - Tue Aug 22 2017
I guess I should start designing a makers mark.
I hope that type of thing will play a major role in forensics. Identifying wounds as of a certain make of weapon and going back to the maker to track down purchases to match up some suspects... Or even find more victims.
Gauging the weight of the weapon and height/strength of the wielder could be a thing too. How deep the blows are, what angle did they originate etc.
I hope that the size and weight of a weapon is a design choice. Or that different races require more or less materials then smaller races in recipes.
Likewise I would not expect the larger tribe's weapons to weigh the same as smaller tribes weapons. But also that you could somewhat choose a lighter or heavier weapon to suit your style even if the actual attacks are faster with lighter damage or heavier but much less wieldy for more damage.
I dont expect massive swords but it would be nice to be able to use anti calvary weapons.
Or that different materials could drastically effect weights. Or that you could put some decorations or things that would lessen the weight somewhat in the pre design choices you make or add later additions like chains or something to the end to add balance to an imbalanced weapon.
If you have items or assets you no longer have use for feel free to send them my way.
@Desophyr as you can see most axes are around 0.8-1 kg while most swords are ~ 400 g heavier. (axes are around 2 lbs. swords are generally 1/2-1 lbs heavier.) If you were thinking about the Dane Axes ... those are held with two hands.
@Iota a makers mark is a small imprint on the blade, or somewhere on the armor, similar to a brand on cattle. I don't think they will help much with forensics, unless you actually found the weapon used in the murder.
@RedAngel it's not that clear cut with more weight=more damage. I guess I should make a table that approximates weight of the weapon used to swing speed and ultimately KE, similar to the one I found for baseball bats.
If by massive swords you mean something like a zhanmadao, I guess your chances are relatively meager, as that kind of anti-cavalry weapon would be nearly impossible to use against lances.
The truth is born in argument
Posted By RedAngel at 05:12 AM - Wed Aug 23 2017
I dont expect massive swords but it would be nice to be able to use anti calvary weapons.
A spear has traditionally been the hallmark of an anti-cavalry weapon
.
Posted By Idrhenion at 04:59 AM - Wed Aug 23 2017
Posted By RedAngel at 05:12 AM - Wed Aug 23 2017
I dont expect massive swords but it would be nice to be able to use anti calvary weapons.
A spear has traditionally been the hallmark of an anti-cavalry weapon
Close, but a spear is traditionally meant to be wieldable in one hand, meaning usually if you did use one to kill a cavalry horse it would be close enough that it would still kill you when it came crashing down on top of you. Also spears were seldom long enough to set, so they relied almost entirely off of the users own strength to generate enough punch to stab the horse to death. Lastly a spear rarely could match the length of a lance, so chances are if the cavalrymen had one the spearmen would be dead before he could even make an attack.
Pikes (Distinguishable from spears only for being way longer) were the prime anti-cavalry weapon, as they allowed the user to set their pike back end to the ground in a formation and allow the charging cavalry to ride into the point. This ensured that all of the cavalrymen's own force would be fully absorbed by the pike, basically guaranteeing death for the horse if it were moving at any reasonable speed. The pikes ranged anywhere from 10 to 25 feet long, so the pikemen could be relatively confident they would be out of range of cavalry lances and the danger of their dead horses flying forward onto them as well.
While pikes go a long way for dissuading cavalry charges, there are accounts of heavy cavalry charging through an infantry unit multiple times, without being stopped by the pikes.
Pikes aren't particularly robust, as you could imagine with 6 m long wooden shafts. They taper quite a bit towards the tip, and if the armor on the horses chest is resilient enough the pike will break instead of piercing it.
The truth is born in argument
I have been told that spears (in a mediëval european context) typically vary in length between 1.6 meters to 2.4 meters...this would be somewhat long enough to fight cavalry (not if they have really long lances though). Don't discount them too quickly as anti cav weapons. As far as pikes breaking against armor goes, i've never heard from that...i'm willing to believe it though. Still, they should be quite effective against cavalry...horses don't like running into a tight mass of men, espesciallly when they have formed a hedge of spearpoints.
Friend code : 67C697
Spears, pikes, and ranged melee & projectiles will do the job for sure. But there should be non range melee options as well if they existed in the historical period. There seems to be a growing list of things people want to see in the game and actual tech they dont.
Either way if it is a spear, pike, or horse sword you get one chance to bet youll win. Either way it comes down to skill. You can dodge a spear or once you get past the range of a pike you are going to be trampled anyways. At least with a huge sword you still have a chance.
They arent that much bigger anyways than a flamberge or zweihander or great sword. So its not a stretch that any two handed weapon could do the job.
Weight and balance of a weapon just depends on what you intend to do with it. Or the implimentations it has on it to serve multiple functions.
If you have items or assets you no longer have use for feel free to send them my way.
@Ryle They are definitely quite effective, and I wouldn't recommend charging a pike block over most other targets, but it has been done with varying success for example during the battles of Ravenna (1512 ineffective), Ceresole (1544 effective but costly), and Dreux (1562 effective).
While I am no expert on horses, to me it is evident by the aforementioned battles, that it seems to have been possible to train them to charge even thightly packed formations. I bet @LadyGrace or @Varuian Maulvorn could tell you more.
Posted By RedAngel at 3:55 PM - Thu Aug 24 2017
Spears, pikes, and ranged melee & projectiles will do the job for sure. But there should be non range melee options as well if they existed in the historical period. There seems to be a growing list of things people want to see in the game and actual tech they dont.
What actual tech has been deemed unusable in this thread, if I may ask?
Either way if it is a spear, pike, or horse sword you get one chance to bet youll win. Either way it comes down to skill. You can dodge a spear or once you get past the range of a pike you are going to be trampled anyways. At least with a huge sword you still have a chance.
They arent that much bigger anyways than a flamberge or zweihander or great sword. So its not a stretch that any two handed weapon could do the job.
You seem to be talking about a 1v1 situation, compared to unit vs unit. The advantages of a spear in a formation are pretty obvious IMO, as are the disadvantages of a twohanded sword.
For single combat ... well yeah, there is no way the rider or his horse even come in range of your weapon, if they don't want to.
The truth is born in argument
I really hope the devs use historical weapons for their models...and don't confuse longswords with greatswords.
Don't worry, I'll make a thread on greatswords sometime soon, which will be guaranteed 100% impartial, and totally not biased.
(Greatswords are my favourite weapons)
The truth is born in argument