COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
How is the game going to help us deal with law and order in the first weeks of launch?
+7

So I've been talking to people and the common idea that seems to come up again and again is that the first few weeks or perhaps even the first few months of the game launch are going to be complete anarchy. I'm not talking about exposition because in order to gain access to that you must have pledged to support the game and therefore it is very likely you are already involved in a community.

What I mean by total anarchy is that the first few weeks to months are going to be full of new players who don't know anything about the communities that are currently being built. They will pick a starting location in the game and will start playing without even knowing who their king of duke or is. Somehow the ruling classes are going to need to approach these people and get them integrated into the community that has formed prior to the launch of the game.

From what I have read a lot of people are against easy communication in this game but that is going to make it nearly impossible for rulers to communicate with their subjects and there is no way to bring them into the greater community by inviting them to Discord servers and signing up on website forums for the community.

So what tools is the game going to give rulers for controlling this period of anarchy where perhaps players are going to ignore the rules set down by communities prior to the launch of the game? How can rulers get to know the people underneath them? How can we build an organised kingdom or duchy when we have been refused the very communication tools required to organise a large group of people?

To give you some idea of the scale of the problem. The largest communities so far in this game probably have about 300 players per kingdom but when the game launches each kingdom will have 100,000 / 6 = 16,667 players per kingdom (assuming the game sells well). That is 16,000 players (roughly) that have no idea about the player made communities and have no idea how to go about communicating with the rest of the community.

Is anyone else wondering how rulers are going to manage this logistical problem at all? I feel that the developers should provide robust tools for rulers to communicate with their subjects so that they can organise their lands and citizens properly.


3/16/2017 3:54:19 PM #1
+1

Sorry i couldn't help it.

I believe long before we get to launch, we'll know what SBS has planned for integrating new players. I'm guessing that, much like Eve with its lengthy tutorial, players will get a chance to run through the basics of knowing they are expected to pay taxes if they live on your land, that they are expected to obey rules and know where to find them, etc.

Of course you'll get people who skip the tutorial and cause problems out of ignorance and apathy, and they'll get beaten down enough times to either try and learn whats going on, or move somewhere else.

3/16/2017 3:58:07 PM #2
+4

I don´t know if it is a devs issue, since are our responsibility to create the culture, laws and rules of our lands. But now that you bring up this point, it can be simply sorted out if every city in the game has a "Info desk". So every new player need to start in a settlement, family or ward. If mayors and city board create a kind of mini tutorial and put someone to rule that, or even a NPC, each new player can have quick instructions about kingdom, rules, who to talk to and etc. I don´t think it ll be anarchy or a great deal as you imagine. But it´s just my opinion.


House Dunn Ägnar

3/16/2017 4:00:24 PM #3
+7

Take your Bloodline+ townsfolk and hole up in a castle until everything calms down. :P

But seriously, I think that's what we'll need to use beta for, to test how good guards should be compared to dozens of new players trying to stab townsfolk, how fast they react etc. It'll be a tough few weeks when the floodgates open and we get thousands of ks/store backers who bought the game and ignored it till launch, and new buyers, all entering the game at once with little understanding on death mechanics etc.

I think the MAJOR issue is that NPC guards, once they're dead, are dead for good; whereas players simply respawn. If a town gets its guards depleted in the first couple days due to all the new players just stabbing people up, testing the mechanics, then there'll be nothing left but the relatively few player guards to stop them.


3/16/2017 4:03:33 PM #4
+1

Posted By Ianquekiller at 3:58 PM - Thu Mar 16 2017

I don´t know if it is a devs issue, since are our responsibility to create the culture, laws and rules of our lands. But now that you bring up this point, it can be simply sorted out if every city in the game has a "Info desk". So every new player need to start in a settlement, family or ward. If mayors and city board create a kind of mini tutorial and put someone to rule that, or even a NPC, each new player can have quick instructions about kingdom, rules, who to talk to and etc. I don´t think it ll be anarchy or a great deal as you imagine. But it´s just my opinion.

I agree it isn't really a dev problem as such but if we had good in game communication channels through which we could communicate with new players that would help the process greatly.

I've already been thinking about things such as using information desks and it should help a lot but what happens if a player just chooses to ignore everything that you lay at their feet information wise? They'll just end up being lose cannons. I want every player to feel at home and welcomed into my duchy and that somehow means getting them to talk to either myself or the duchies leadership and the other players within the duchy. The king will also more than likely want the same thing as well so there are multiple communities all trying to reach out to new players at the very start of the game.


3/16/2017 4:05:36 PM #5
+1

Posted By Barghest at 4:00 PM - Thu Mar 16 2017

Take your Bloodline+ townsfolk and hole up in a castle until everything calms down. :P

But seriously, I think that's what we'll need to use beta for, to test how good guards should be compared to dozens of new players trying to stab townsfolk, how fast they react etc. It'll be a tough few weeks when the floodgates open and we get thousands of ks/store backers who bought the game and ignored it till launch, and new buyers, all entering the game at once with little understanding on death mechanics etc.

I think the MAJOR issue is that NPC guards, once they're dead, are dead for good; whereas players simply respawn. If a town gets its guards depleted in the first couple days due to all the new players just stabbing people up, testing the mechanics, then there'll be nothing left but the relatively few player guards to stop them.

Exactly. It could be absolute anarchy it will be very hard for rulers to force law and order onto their citizens. Actually force is probably the wrong word but make sure their citizens are safe is what I mean.

I think getting new players involved in the community is going to be really important so that they feel like they belong to something greater than themselves.


3/16/2017 4:08:00 PM #6
+0

I think most of the players ll follow rules and etc, it's the core of this game. Of course there are insane rogues and crazy people, but that ll be the fun, burn them! lol


House Dunn Ägnar

3/16/2017 4:11:54 PM #7
+4

Posted By Ianquekiller at 4:08 PM - Thu Mar 16 2017

I think most of the players ll follow rules and etc, it's the core of this game. Of course there are insane rogues and crazy people, but that ll be the fun, burn them! lol

Maybe this is just me being pessimistic but I'm expecting quite a lot of law breakers in this game. You just have to look at the number of people who want to be assassins or some other murky underworld type character.


3/16/2017 4:15:26 PM #8
+0

I plan on have someone responsible for newcomers on my city and a tutorial prepared for them. But i kinda agree with you that when the gates opens the crowd will be hard to control. And there will be a bunch of people that buys the game, select anywhere and starts on doing whatever they want. We can´t come up with a solid plan now, we must wait for launch and hope for the best. The majority of the newbies can get acquainted well and we will have no major problems or we can have a Walking Dead cenario and hide ourselves in our castles and pray. Sincerily I will wait on launch to think about that, will prepare myself and wait to see people reactions.


House Dunn Ägnar

3/16/2017 4:36:43 PM #9
-1

maybe you could think bayound kingdom and duchy, all the way to county and settlement.

the problem you discribe is not a kingdom or duchy problem, it is a settlement problem, every single new player is going to start at a settlement, the first authorities that are going to deal with them are settlement authorities, not knigdom or duchy.

Then, the other point you're adressing is adhesion to the community you built which is a diferent matter than to canalize and control civil disorder.

To that the answer is simple and a bit of the same. First you do not force or drag any one in a community, either you built a community appealing enough for the new players to naturally want to join it at some point or you built something that is not appealing and the nature of the game will either force your community and it's value to addapt and evolve or fight and probably disapear.

what ever the situation, once again things are going to happen at settlement level first than will go up the tiers, it will never ever start from the top.

being a noble, or a high tier noble do not mean you're commending players which characters live in the domain you rule, it only mean you rule that domain they live in, you set taxes, and laws and shaped and keep shaping the world, but you subjects are free, free to move away, free to not pay attention to your needs and will, free to oppose you, free to stay away from your community, as long as they follow the laws you devised and pay their taxes.

Now, how do you get in contact with new players at settlement level ? town criers and information boards, officials at the town hall.... basically people to make contact or informations to contact you or their local community members.


3/16/2017 5:23:42 PM #10
+0

While it's impossible to know the balance or difficulty I would keep in mind for the beginners with no housing on the onset, just surviving will hopefully be somewhat difficult.

As a collective, food, clothing, and shelter should be relatively easy, but for a new player these things are initially difficult if going it alone.

Basically, if you gotta get food, clothing, and shelter to survive you're not going to have a easy time if you're constantly causing trouble.

So the difficulty balance of the survival mechanics will be one of the better ways the devs can control getting people to work together, even if strangers at first.


Friend Code: B88A39

3/16/2017 5:53:59 PM #11
+2

Posted By markof at 4:36 PM - Thu Mar 16 2017

maybe you could think bayound kingdom and duchy, all the way to county and settlement.

the problem you discribe is not a kingdom or duchy problem, it is a settlement problem, every single new player is going to start at a settlement, the first authorities that are going to deal with them are settlement authorities, not knigdom or duchy.

Then, the other point you're adressing is adhesion to the community you built which is a diferent matter than to canalize and control civil disorder.

To that the answer is simple and a bit of the same. First you do not force or drag any one in a community, either you built a community appealing enough for the new players to naturally want to join it at some point or you built something that is not appealing and the nature of the game will either force your community and it's value to addapt and evolve or fight and probably disapear.

what ever the situation, once again things are going to happen at settlement level first than will go up the tiers, it will never ever start from the top.

being a noble, or a high tier noble do not mean you're commending players which characters live in the domain you rule, it only mean you rule that domain they live in, you set taxes, and laws and shaped and keep shaping the world, but you subjects are free, free to move away, free to not pay attention to your needs and will, free to oppose you, free to stay away from your community, as long as they follow the laws you devised and pay their taxes.

Now, how do you get in contact with new players at settlement level ? town criers and information boards, officials at the town hall.... basically people to make contact or informations to contact you or their local community members.

You seem to be saying that you think that the settlement and perhaps the counts are going to be the ones with the power. This is almost certainly going to be false. The real world has taught us that in just about every functioning society power is centralised in the government and the high courts. It is unlikely to be any different in Chronicles of Elyria.

This doesn't mean that the ruling class can dictate what the players can do exactly but they do set the laws and rules of the kingdom and the community that makes up that group of players and if any player falls outside of those laws and rules then they can be punished.

The settlements are there to enact the laws handed down by the counts, dukes and kings and to make sure that those laws are followed. Mayors, barons, counts and dukes will also have to make sure that taxes are collected and paid to the relevant person. They also have to ensure that the economy works correctly and that there are enough players available to do what is required by the kingdom.

People can do what they want within reason but if you think that players will have absolute freedom you are mistaken. People in the USA or the UK or every other democratic nation do not have total freedom either.

This game is going to be modelled on real life politics in many ways. You seem to hate the idea that anyone has power over you but I'm sorry to say unless you are a king you'll have to follow orders. As a duke I accept I'll have to do what my king says from time to time even if I don't particularly want to do it.

Even kings won't have total freedom. They'll have to work within a diplomatic framework worked out between all the kings on the server.

I don't want to rain on peoples parade. I want people to be happy in my duchy and want people to feel like they can advance but at the same time they have to live within the laws and rules of the land. There is no getting around that fact.

Edit:

It is also the responsibility of the duke to sort out any problems in a kingdom that a count or a mayor or a baron can't sort out themselves. If two counts are fighting it will be the duke who comes down and sorts the problem out between them.

Basically dukes have to ensure the proper running of the whole duchy something that mayors, barons and counts can't do on their own. It is this responsibility for all the people that live in a duchy that drives a duke. They need to keep their population happy and productive and make sure that society runs correctly.


3/16/2017 5:57:30 PM #12
-1

Well wont most people be starting the game out as a 14 year old? and I doubt the 14 year old they inhabit is going to have a swords in their hand and be skilled enough to use it against some town guards. The whole point of starting the game as a 14 year old and into a family with parents is to learn the ropes. That's what the family unit is set up for.


3/16/2017 6:17:13 PM #13
+2

Agree with Barghest - we will need to see how good are the guards in beta. I would assume that guards will be with much better equipment from the start and the won't be easy to kill, in addition if someone goes ham and starts swinging his sword around, after incapacitating then he should be stripped of his weapon and armor so even if he gets up/respawns he will need to find a new gear.

What I'm worried about however - what happens if random people start targeting my innkeepers/blacksmiths/shop owners etc. will they be able to attack and kill such NPCs before guards come over, even if after that person will be kicked out of the settlement later, several such attacks will leave city without many useful NPCs (Later someone will fill their position, but still it's something I would try to avoid).


3/16/2017 6:18:43 PM #14
+21

[. . .] the common idea that seems to come up again and again is that the first few weeks or perhaps even the first few months of the game launch are going to be complete anarchy. I'm not talking about exposition because in order to gain access to that you must have pledged to support the game and therefore it is very likely you are already involved in a community.

I'd like to correct one thing before I continue:

Exposition will, eventually, be open to everyone.

Those who have pledged to support the game at a minimum tier that grants access to the Exposition (Bloodline, $125) will have access to the world-building phase for the entire three-month duration of it. From then on, in descending order of Influence, others will gain access as well. The more Influence you have, the more time you will be able to spend in Exposition. If you have very little Influence, then you will have the minimum time available to partake in the Exposition.

Keep this in mind :-) I'll be referring to it occasionally throughout the rest of this post.

What I mean by total anarchy is that the first few weeks to months are going to be full of new players who don't know anything about the communities that are currently being built. They will pick a starting location in the game and will start playing without even knowing who their king of duke or is. Somehow the ruling classes are going to need to approach these people and get them integrated into the community that has formed prior to the launch of the game.

[. . .]

So what tools is the game going to give rulers for controlling this period of anarchy where perhaps players are going to ignore the rules set down by communities prior to the launch of the game? How can rulers get to know the people underneath them? How can we build an organised kingdom or duchy when we have been refused the very communication tools required to organise a large group of people?

I'd like to offer a few points of interest that may help alleviate some of your concerns:

  1. Access restriction, involving Taboo locations, locked doors & objects, etc., will be one of the main feature areas being tested in the pre-alpha experience Prologue: The Awakening. This will carry through onto Exposition, and into launch.

  2. Families provide a small, supportive social structure with a sense of identity, as players recognize themselves as being part of a family, a noble house, or a dynasty. They, usually, will be the center of your social experience in Chronicles of Elyria.

  3. The nobility and aristocracy have their own responsibilities to attend to. It is unlikely that you would personally meet the President or Prime Minister of your country or the Governor of your region, isn't it? Unless you plan to introduce yourself before you kill them...

  4. Discord, Skype, TeamSpeak, etc. do exist. We're not big fans of reinventing the wheel when the wheel works just fine :-)

When a new player enters the game, it is unlikely that they would have accumulated the Story Points earned through gameplay to begin their life as a Non-Traditional-Character. So, they have either the option to join a player family who has established themselves during the Exposition, or an NPC family. Either way, they are invested in your success because your reputation equals their reputation and vice versa -- similarly, they may very well excommunicate you if you are tarnishing your family's reputation.

That's mainly what the 3-month world-building phase referred to as Exposition is for -- it's for getting our early backers and influential members into the game before it's officially launched, allowing them some time to establish a player population amongst the existing NPC population so that, at launch, new players aren't surrounded by NPCs and other players scrabbling to build up their kingdoms/duchies/counties/baronies/settlements.

Growing up in a family, whether NPC or PC, is comparable to the tutorials most other games hold your hand through. A family will teach you the ins and outs of the world and society they are a part of, impart upon you some of the skills and knowledge they have learnt through the course of their lifetime(s), and offer you some of the support you need to begin creating your own narrative.

As well, whether the family you join is a group of friends you know or complete strangers, access restriction is a feature area. It would suck if someone were to join your family and loot some of your most precious possessions! Similar to that one room you were forbidden to enter when you were a child or just felt wrong to enter, you will be able to add a layer of protection to your home. And if you really wanted to, you could always just booby-trap that room, too.

Moving onto nobility: you mentioned that the ruling classes would need to come into contact with the new players. In case you didn't click the links provided, here's some info:

  • Kings are responsible for setting the success or victory conditions for the kingdom. That is, it's the king who decides whether the kingdom will focus on research & technology, business and commerce, or military endeavors. Kings also set laws and taxes for the kingdom using contracts.

  • Dukes set laws/taxes for their duchy, and are responsible for paying dues to their king. They're also responsible for law enforcement, military, and the defense of their duchy. They manage the Strongholds / Castles / Outposts, and assign sheriffs and judges. In times of war, the dukes raise their armies and lead them into battle.

  • Counts are responsible for resource and land management, building up settlements, and encouraging research. Counts maintain a Land Management Table in their County Seat, managing the sale and adverse possession of parcels of land.

  • Mayors and Barons control local settlements - either towns or strongholds. They typically own the majority of land within their settlements and are responsible for zoning, monitoring settlement resources and taxes, along with local laws.

There are communities, and then there are communities within those communities, and so on and so forth. How often do you meet with the teacher of your classroom compared to the administrative staff of your school, or the Principal or Vice Principal, or the people on the Board of Education? Unless they go out of their way to make themselves accessible to the common student, or you have gone out of your way to specifically meet with them (through good deeds or bad), it is unlikely that the monarch that manages over 15000 people would meet with you, personally.

Regarding us refusing you the communication tools required to organize a large group of people... well. As stated before, we're not refusing you anything. We can't stop you from turning to Discord or Mumble or Curse. Chronicles of Elyria is a Massively-Multiplayer-Online-Role-Playing-Game -- we're going about the chat system a bit differently from most other MMOs.

To give you some idea of the scale of the problem. The largest communities so far in this game probably have about 300 players per kingdom but when the game launches each kingdom will have 100,000 / 6 = 16,667 players per kingdom (assuming the game sells well). That is 16,000 players (roughly) that have no idea about the player made communities and have no idea how to go about communicating with the rest of the community.

Is anyone else wondering how rulers are going to manage this logistical problem at all? I feel that the developers should provide robust tools for rulers to communicate with their subjects so that they can organise their lands and citizens properly.

When I first joined this community in February 2016, I was just shy of being the 25th-thousand registered member. There were only a handful of kingdoms then, and they were sparsely populated.

It is now March 2017, and the size of the community has easily quintupled. There are much more than just a handful of kingdoms now, and they are more densely populated than the kingdoms a year ago. By the time the game launches, I don't think the kingdoms will be dealing with such a large fraction of their player-base being new to the community in general.

And if they are, I'm sure the existing community will be able to show them the ropes just fine. We have forums, too <3


3/16/2017 6:39:44 PM #15
+1

One of the nice feature i see is that SBS is letting the players make the choices. You can have areas of total chaos and lawlessness. Or you can decide what is and isn't acceptable in your neck of the woods. But whatever you decide, you have to live with, so think ling and hard about your choices. What you chose today may not work tomorrow. This is a fully dynamic world and ten years is going to be a long time.

Without full game mechanics available, of course, we are all just speculating, but what we do know is that each new player will be assuming the place of an NPC already in a family located somewhere within a kingdom, duchy, county...at some settlement somewhere.

So the basic structure has to be at the settlement level.

Thus Kings, Dukes, Counts, etc. will be leaning very heavily on their Mayors and Barons to define the laws and customs as well as enforcing them...Strong recruitment and development of these levels seems to be a must for any successful higher structure. Mayors and Barons are the foundational positions of the pyramid. They will make or break your Kingdom.

Perhaps the most important function for a Mayor in the first month of "open" game play will just be identifying and keeping the "rogue" and "griefing" players from ruining the game experience for those wishing to integrate productively into their towns? (The old western trope of 'we don't take kindly to your kind in these parts'?, etc.).

In the real world, these "undesirable" elements say that an effective community watch is the number one deterrent to their committing of crimes. If that is mirrored here, and I were a Mayor, one of my first things would be to develop such a system for community members to report suspicious activities and individuals. My people would be my first line of defense. It is your town, and your homes, and your businesses, that are directly effected, so I want you actively engaged in helping me protect them.

Another mechanism that SBS has said will influence NPC behaviors are the reputation and gossip functions. As I understand them, the better the place is to live the more NPC's will want to move there...and the gossip function spreads that reputation. Making your settlement safe will make it more desirable for long term growth vs. the lawless boom town that attracts the kind of player that seeks that environment.

Counts (and those higher up the tree) may also want to appropriate the resources necessary to make this easier. (Some type of rapid response law enforcement team that mayors can call upon for backup? A riding court system similar to the old west?).

Again, the time, effort, and forethought put in during exposition will truly show once the floodgates open.

To paraphrase the great philosopher Mike Tyson; everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth. Day one will be that punch to everything that everyone has theorized about to that point.


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