26 November

Solving Title Problems

By Caspian

Hail Elyrians!

About two years ago, I had a chance encounter with an executive from a tech giant during a lunch interview with Scarlet. We discussed what it takes to make it in business, games or otherwise, and the one truth I will never forget is, "A successful company is one that has both passion for their projects and love for their customers."

Over the last few years, the principle of "love for the customer" is one that has consistently and repeatedly guided our decision-making process and has motivated us to, whenever possible, address and treat problems surfaced to us by the community with forethought and an open mind. I think we’ve all experienced that, sometimes, attempting to solve problems can unknowingly create future problems down the road. When this happens, we have a choice. We can either address the problem, ignore it, or kick it down the road to be solved later on - often then becoming an even greater problem.

With title transfers and package claiming just around the corner, and with Ltd. Courtier and Ltd. Royal packages going back on sale today for a limited time, it felt like an ideal time to fix a few complications with title limits and title transfers that were created way back in 2016.

The rest of this dev blog is going to have a few more anecdotes explaining our decision-making process and some numbers and statistics. Full disclosure, this information is primarily aimed at the aristocracy and nobility, who may be making decisions based on information addressed in this blog. If you’re not buying or transferring titles any time soon, it may be safe to just jump to the conclusion. But of course, you’re more than welcome to read it regardless of your pledge package/title.

How the discussion began

Still with me? Great! Last week, in order to prevent people from purchasing too many packages during the November 2018 promo, and getting into a position where they had more titles than they could actually use (again, love for the customers), I discussed with the ambassadors, moderators, and Exclusive Access members a set of proposed limits on titles. The limits discussed were to apply to both Package Claiming as well as Title Transfers. At first, there was some negative feedback and pushback but, after a marathon Discord session, those present had encouraged me to settle on a compromise.

Afterward, the longer I considered this compromise, the more the numbers felt wrong to me - and I couldn't entirely explain why. I jumped into the ambassador channel and expressed my frustration and was later encouraged to understand the source of my frustration. It was a good suggestion. So I spent some time over the Thanksgiving holiday re-reading through old dev blogs, pouring through old Discord and IRC conversations, and trying to understand what it was about the numbers that had me so concerned. I finally realized what it was.

The problem was that the compromise I made on numbers - even the original numbers I had proposed - didn't adequately address the problem at hand and was, instead, kicking the real problem down the road to be faced by the players later on.

It's easy to forget when we interact with the aristocracy and nobility here on the forums and in Discord everyday, that a voice is missing. It's the voice of the hundreds of thousands of players who have not yet tuned in, not yet purchased, and not yet signed in for the first time to create their character. Their voices need to be heard as well. As I re-read over our old developer blogs, I put myself in their shoes, heard their voices, and came up with a new set of policies which are both fair, mathematically sound, and honor the original vision of Chronicles of Elyria in a way that neither my proposal nor our compromise last week did.

Title Limits

First, going all the way back to the original design journal on Kingdom and Land Management it was clear that we intended for the kingdoms, duchies, and counties to be of varying size. This is true both across the servers as well as on a single server. The world of Elyria is fair, but not equitable, and not all domains should be homogenous.

At the same time, we put in place a range of sizes and numbers in order to ensure diversity and choice for the players. In our original blog post, we'd said we wanted there to be 3-5 kingdoms per server, 6-10 duchies per kingdom, and 12-20 counties per duchy. Make note of these ranges as the minimums are important. We’ll come back to them.

We later settled on fixed, albeit slightly larger, numbers allowing the players to - through their purchases and transfers - control the size and count of the different domains. However, the desire to allow players to have control over the size and number of counties in their duchy, duchies in their kingdom, or kingdoms on their continent cannot come without constraints. Constraints that both ensure approximately the minimum numbers above and a maximum size of each of the merged domains.

Remember, when the game launches, you will have an opportunity to change the compositions listed below through conquest and/or diplomacy. But for the purpose of Domain & Settlement Selection, we're putting in the following constraints on package claiming and title transfers.

On the continental servers:

  • No Kingdom can be greater than 2x
  • No Duchy can be greater than 3x
  • No County can be greater than 6x

In more verbose terms, it means there can be no kingdom larger than a double kingdom, no duchy larger than a triple duchy, and no county larger than 6 counties combined. Please note that these all represent 25% (rounded up) of the total available number of domains.

On OCE:

  • No Kingdom can be greater than 1x
  • No Duchy can be greater than 2x
  • No County can be greater than 4x

These again represent 25% of the total domain sizes as the starting domain counts on OCE are 33% less than the continental servers.

This addresses part of the problem. While this ensures domain sizes are fair and balanced, and not overly large, it doesn't prevent a domain from being entirely filled up with merged domains (I’ll call them "multis" for short going forward). For example, while we've said the max size of a duchy on a continental server is 3x, this alone would allow a kingdom to fill up with four, 3x duchies. But this violates one of the original visions of the game and creates fewer duchies than our original goal of 6-10.

In order to ensure the minimum number of domains listed above, we must also impose limits on the number of domains that can be involved in mergers. The limits being imposed are listed here:

On the continental servers:

  • Multi kingdoms can account for no more than 4 of 6 kingdoms
  • Multi duchies can account for no more than 8 of 12 duchies
  • Multi counties can account for no more than 16 of 24 counties

As an example, a kingdom could be made up of a 3x duchy, another 3x duchy, and a 2x duchy. That's a total of 8 "duchies" all contributing toward multis. The remaining 4 duchies must be singles.

As another example, I could have a 6x county, a 4x county, a 3x county, and another 3x county. That's 16 "counties" all contributing toward those 4 counties. With the remaining 8 "single" counties, there would be a total of 12 counties in that sample duchy.

With the above numbers, it's theoretically possible for a continental server to have 3 kingdoms, some made up of as little as 7 duchies, made up of as little as 11 counties. Note that, that more or less meets our intended minimums listed above.

On OCE:

  • Multi kingdoms cannot exist
  • Multi duchies can account for no more than 6 of 8 duchies
  • Multi counties can account for no more than 12 of 16 counties

These limits are slightly larger in percentage area than on the continental servers, but that's because the limits on domain sizes on OCE means there are more smaller domains, rather than fewer larger ones.

With these two changes above, we're able to guarantee that no matter how many titles are transferred, and packages are claimed, the starting world will be fair and fun for the incoming players. I’ll emphasize again that we anticipate the number and size of domains to change organically post-launch. But the natural process of expansion and contraction through gameplay manifests differently than large domains that are created through Domain Selection.

Regarding Settlements:

Because settlements are more variable in size and number, it’s impossible to put fixed constraints in place. So rather than limit the number of packages someone can combine with settlements, the only rule is that you cannot combine more settlement titles than would account for 25% of the total parcels of the county the settlement is in. So if a county is 1km x 1km that’s 256 total parcels of land. No single settlement, through merging, can be larger than 64 parcels. Note that it’s still possible to have a settlement larger than that by default, but one cannot be created through merging.

To be very explicit, since we do not know how big of a county your settlement will be in until Domain & Settlement Selection, we will allow you to collect as many Mayor titles as you like, without limit. However, regardless of how many you have combined, when you select your settlement during Domain & Settlement selection, it will be capped at 25% of the total area of the county.

Given the above example, if you owned the duchy and two counties (+25 parcels per county) it's entirely possible that your settlement size would grow to be larger than 64 parcels. But due to the above constraint, the settlement would still be capped at 64 parcels because the county is only a 1km x 1km county.

Where are we now?

Great! We've set limits of 2, 3, and 6 for the maximum domain sizes, but where are players at now in terms of maximums? Well, we have no way of knowing what people are planning with their title transfers, but we do have data based on Account Merging. Here's what the data says:

  • Out of the 22 kingdoms, 2 people have double-kingdoms. (22/22 claimed; 100%)
  • Out of the 136 duchies, 1 person has a triple duchy, 14 people have double duchies. (136/248 claimed; 54%)
  • Out of the 1,330 counties, 1 person has a 6x county, 2 people have a 5x county, 6 people have a 4x county, 35 people have a triple county, and 95 people have a double county. (1,330/5,696 claimed; 23%)

As you can see, there are very few triple duchies, or 6x counties, but we know with title transfers and packages going back on sale today that those numbers will increase. And we're ok with that. Up to the limits we provided above.

As some additional information, here's how the duchies and counties are distributed, per server, as of today:

Duchies:

  • 37 duke/duchess titles have not bound their titles to a server
  • 31 NA-West (31% of those bound)
  • 35 NA-East (35% of those bound)
  • 25 EU (25% of those bound)
  • 8 OCE (8% of those bound)

Counties:

  • 559 count/countess titles have not bound their titles to a server
  • 179 NA-West (23% of those bound)
  • 405 NA-East (53% of those bound)
  • 141 EU (18% of those bound)
  • 46 OCE (6% of those bound)

Solving One Last Problem

The ability to transfer titles was designed to solve a problem (Notice a theme here?). People wanted to purchase packages for some of the benefits, such as the Design Experiences, and they wanted to support us, but they didn’t want to take on the responsibility of owning a title. So, we introduced two options to remove the burden.

  • Trade the title in for EP
  • Trade it to someone else

The former was offered for people who didn't know anyone who might benefit from the title, for anyone who might not want to trade in all their titles and instead just some of them, or for people who wanted the additional EP to use for their bloodline customization or other titles.

The latter was offered for people who didn't need/want the EP, people who wanted to get rid of all of their titles, and people who knew someone that might benefit from having a title.

However, what I discovered during the conversation last week is that some, but not all, were intending to use Title Transfer in a way that was different than intended. This is a scenario where we can either ignore the secondary consequences we're now aware of, or we can act in the interest of other players and be a voice for those who might suffer the consequences.

So how is it that some people are intending to use title transfers?

  1. People want to play close to a friend, and the perceived best way to ensure their domain is next to their friend's domain is for their friend to just pick both at the same time. The idea would be to use the Sedecim or other in-game mechanic to transfer the title back.

  2. People with lower influence felt that, by trading their title to someone with higher influence, it would allow them to be part of a better overall domain and, as with the previous scenario, they could get their title back later via in-game means.

Notice something about the above? The player who purchased the package DOES want the title/domain. Or at least, wants the benefits that come from the title and domain. They're just using Title Transfer in order to somehow gain what is perceived to be a more optimal domain. This wasn't the reason we introduced the ability to transfer titles and circumvents the desired goal of finding a way to handle people who didn't want their packages, but didn't want it to go to waste.

So, here's a bit of clarifying information that may help people avoid pitfalls, as well as a new policy we're putting into effect to ensure the best overall outcome.

  • You can either transfer a title stack or exchange it for EP. Not both. If a title stack is transferred, it can never be turned into EP after that
  • During domain/settlement selection, all your domains of the same level must be adjacent and clustered. This means they can't snake around or create lines, but must create the tightest possible grouping (they must share an increasing number of borders or points)
  • If you have a multi-domain and cannot fit it into the domain you want, either because it can't be adjacent, or because the domain has reached the maximum number of multis, you'll need to place your domains in a different domain, or forfeit the additional titles (they can no longer be exchanged for EP)
  • The Sedecim happens every 16 weeks. This is the best opportunity you'll have to change your domain borders without going to war or undergoing a revolution
  • The process of changing domain borders requires a vote of people at all levels involved. For example, re-drawing county lines requires a vote by the mayors/barons, sibling counts, the count themselves, and the count's duke. Re-drawing domain lines is hard, and isn't something that can be done easily or frequently.

The above are all things that have been previously discussed and should come as no surprise. But in addition to the above, we're imposing the following new constraint in order to ensure that people are using Title Transfers for the intended reasons:

  • You cannot transfer a title stack to someone who already has a higher-level title than you

For example, a count cannot transfer their county stack to a Duke. The duke has problems of their own to manage. This change is intended to directly combat people who are planning to transfer their titles to more influential people in order to obtain a more favorable domain.

The system was designed the way it was for a reason. And while transferring titles up was an unanticipated workaround, it is a workaround, and the effects of such will not create domain borders that are in the best interest of the player-base at large.

Similarly, you cannot transfer mayor titles to counts and above. The mechanism for increasing another person's settlement is through Villager Tokens or EP gifts; not additional mayor titles.

I know this one in particular will sting for a couple people. But please remember, the Mayor Package(s) were advertised as a way for players to take control of an existing settlement during Domain & Settlement Selection, customize it during Exposition, and then run it after launch. If you don't want the mayor title, you're free to transfer it to someone else who does want to run a settlement, or exchange it for additional EP.

Conclusion / TL; DR

CoE is a game in-development, which means things are still subject to change. Sometimes those changes will be game mechanics, sometimes they'll be policies around our community events and engagement.

But because we always make decisions with "love for our customers" in mind, those changes will more often than not be in everyone's best interest. However, sometimes unintended consequences mean that we must hem in a potential exploit to uphold the integrity of the game for all involved. In this case, using the title transfer system to bypass the picking order or amassing an unbalanced domain size.

To ensure that CoE launches with the correct range of domains and sub-domains, and to ensure that future players - whose voice cannot yet be heard - come into the game with the best possible landscape in which to play in, we're setting the following constraints and imposing the following rules and limitations.

On the continental servers:

  • No Kingdom can be greater than 2x
  • No Duchy can be greater than 3x
  • No County can be greater than 6x
  • Multi kingdoms can account for no more than 4 of 6 kingdoms
  • Multi duchies can account for no more than 8 of 12 duchies
  • Multi counties can account for no more than 16 of 24 counties

On OCE:

  • No Kingdom can be greater than 1x
  • No Duchy can be greater than 2x
  • No County can be greater than 4x
  • Multi kingdoms cannot exist
  • Multi duchies can account for no more than 6 of 8 duchies
  • Multi counties can account for no more than 12 of 16 counties

On All Servers:

  • Settlements cannot grow through title transfers or merges to larger than 25% of the county's parcel count
  • You cannot transfer a title stack to someone who already has a higher-level title than you
  • You can either transfer a title stack or exchange it for EP. Not both. If a title stack is transferred, it can never be turned into EP after that
  • During domain/settlement selection, all your domains of the same level must be adjacent and clustered. This means they can't snake around or create lines, but must create the tightest possible grouping
  • If you have a multi-domain and cannot fit it into the domain you want either because it can't be adjacent, or because the domain has reached the maximum number of multis, you'll either need to place your sub-domain in a different domain, or forfeit the additional titles (they can no longer be exchanged for EP)
  • The Sedecim happens every 16 weeks. This is the only opportunity you'll have to change your domain's borders without going to war or undergoing a revolution
  • The process of changing domain borders requires a vote of people at all levels involved. For example, re-drawing county lines requires a vote by the mayors/barons, sibling counts, the count themselves, and the count's duke - during the Sedecim. Re-drawing domain lines is hard, and isn't something that can be done easily or frequently

Again, we're sympathetic to any players affected by these policies, but felt the constraints and limitations to be fair, reasonable, and in the best interest of the game. If, once title transfer is enabled, you find yourself with more titles in your inventory than the above constraints, feel free to contact support for options.

Pledged to the Continued Development of the Soulborn Engine and the Chronicles of Elyria,

Caspian

Discuss

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Andrinn - 1 week ago

Thanks for the explanation, it's good to see such thought and discussion placed into decisions like these.

Grapefruitkush - 1 week ago

When is Domain and Settlement selection happening ? Map selection was exciting but it ended WAY TOO FAST 💨

Aeryn Suun - 1 week ago

Domain/Settlement Selection when?

Labbe - 1 week ago
@Aeryn Suun:

Posted By Aeryn Suun at 5:46 PM - Wed Nov 28 2018

Domain/Settlement Selection when?

Caspian Yesterday at 5:33 PM - CoE common room, Discord

Domain selection was scheduled for December. But we're strongly considering postponing it. We don't want people away on holiday missing out.

Grapefruitkush - 1 week ago
@Labbe:

Posted By Labbe at 8:58 PM - Wed Nov 28 2018

Posted By Aeryn Suun at 5:46 PM - Wed Nov 28 2018

Domain/Settlement Selection when?

Caspian Yesterday at 5:33 PM - CoE common room, Discord

Domain selection was scheduled for December. But we're strongly considering postponing it. We don't want people away on holiday missing out.

Ouch , that hurts my heart .... domain and settlement selection WAS MY HOLIDAY . 😂🦃❄️💩

SolaceOfShadow - 1 week ago

I am constantly impressed with the amount of time and effort so many people, Players, Mods, Devs, etc., have put into this game world.

I hope I speak for many of us when I say we appreciate anyone who considers what is most beneficial, not only for the majority, but for individuals as well.

Then takes action with the understanding that while life isn't fair, good people try to be.

Crysta - 1 week ago

I suspect “just make the world bigger” is not as simple as it sounds.

LaLicorne - 1 week ago

Jesus !!!!!! Why a so complex solution to solve a so simple problem ????

You have a problem of size, right ? This is a well-known basic relation equation between : - offer and demand (basic market law) - land size vs player range of settlement

Then juste increase the scale (size) of your world, and your problems will be solved : - by increasing space between domains you equilibrate huge domains vs tiny domain with empty space for the small one - by increasing land size, and the number of pickable domains place, you increase the offer vs the demand, making irrelevant to transfert+merge of titles for "more optimal domain" pick.

Gunnlang - 2 weeks ago

Good to see you came to some solid numbers Caspian. I never liked the idea of people can just throw crazy amounts of money and go as close to pay to win as they can.

If people can't honestly see, how a new player entering wouldn't like to see some count owning 1/3 of a duchy.. well who cares. Sure the game isn't aimed at being fair. But people shouldn't be able to enter controlling massive areas straight off the bat.

I would rather at launch people wanting to play, not just see a bunch of wallet warriors turning people away.

TheCoz - 2 weeks ago

Is that better Mr. Sassy Pants?

TheCoz - 2 weeks ago

So sorry that SBS wants a somewhat balanced starting point.

sigh

Malais - 2 weeks ago
@TheCoz:

Posted By TheCoz at 11:35 AM - Tue Nov 27 2018

lol, when the King says its fine and some snot nosed Count is still crying like that chick about Leaving Brittany Alone. So sorry that SBS wants a somewhat balanced starting point. Take your tears n put them in the sock drawer. ;)

Just saying ....

Personal Attacks: Derogatory, offensive, and otherwise hurtful or inflammatory remarks are entirely prohibited.

TOS

Not that I really care perhaps the old mod in me coming out.

mcurtis - 2 weeks ago

You have put a lot of thought into this with hard numbers to back up the direction of the game. It seems fair to me.

Kridina - 2 weeks ago

I support your efforts in keeping the game fair. Many people i know were originally turned off by the game because it came across as "Pay to Win" and it was apparent some people were trying to abuse the Pledge system to do just that. This, hopefully, will help people see SB is working to prevent such a thing and have a fair game play experience...and that Pledge packages are to be what they were always meant to be: To show support for the game and populate the servers initially for world creation purposes.

Excellent job, Caspian!

Raziel - 2 weeks ago

Happy to hear all this. Better for the balance of the game and the people that will join later on.

Supersharp - 2 weeks ago

Very pleased with the effort and thought put in here. Thank you. Really looking forward to launch.

kajoreh - 2 weeks ago

However, sometimes unintended consequences mean that we must hem in a potential exploit to uphold the integrity of the game for all involved. In this case, using the title transfer system to bypass the picking order or amassing an unbalanced domain size.

To ensure that CoE launches with the correct range of domains and sub-domains, and to ensure that future players - whose voice cannot yet be heard - come into the game with the best possible landscape in which to play in, we're setting the following constraints and imposing the following rules and limitations.

To paraphrase the great Spock:

"The needs of the many outweigh the desires of the few,"

Shannon_Rythcorm - 2 weeks ago

Hi Adam, I'm one of your counts, and this greatly negatively effects me.

VioletWinterlynn - 2 weeks ago

Posted By Zariel at 9:42 PM - Mon Nov 26 2018

Posted By Lodrig at 8:33 PM - Mon Nov 26 2018

This is Bull, Caspian you JUST HAD us lock in maps where we used the Dutchy lines to determine if our kingdoms could pick in them effectively. I'm a member of Vornair where Duchies are absolutely boned by these rules regarding triple duchy placements and the number of of multi duchies allowed in a Kingdom.

Agree completely. Not only did they reveal the duchy lines to give us information on picks but then they screwed us by adding rules that would've been CRUCIAL in map selection.

P.S. WHAT IS WRONG WITH Y1, Was it intentional to screw an entire duchy?

Before getting upset, I would suggest rereading the post.

Since Adam has a double kingdom. The number of duchies that can be multi is raised due to the larger size, this makes it so that he can have 16/24 multi duchies.

Currently, if I am reading and doing my math correctly, Vornairs dukes only account for 13/16 multi duchies.

Adam Burrfoot - 2 weeks ago
@VioletWinterlynn:

Posted By VioletWinterlynn at 9:58 PM - Mon Nov 26 2018

Posted By Zariel at 9:42 PM - Mon Nov 26 2018

Posted By Lodrig at 8:33 PM - Mon Nov 26 2018

This is Bull, Caspian you JUST HAD us lock in maps where we used the Dutchy lines to determine if our kingdoms could pick in them effectively. I'm a member of Vornair where Duchies are absolutely boned by these rules regarding triple duchy placements and the number of of multi duchies allowed in a Kingdom.

Agree completely. Not only did they reveal the duchy lines to give us information on picks but then they screwed us by adding rules that would've been CRUCIAL in map selection.

P.S. WHAT IS WRONG WITH Y1, Was it intentional to screw an entire duchy?

Before getting upset, I would suggest rereading the post.

Since Adam has a double kingdom. The number of duchies that can be multi is raised due to the larger size, this makes it so that he can have 16/24 multi duchies.

Currently, if I am reading and doing my math correctly, Vornairs dukes only account for 13/16 multi duchies.

What she said. This doesnt effect the vast majority of Vornair at all, aside from a slight reconfiguration on placement of the duchies which isnt a huge deal. Easy fix.

Lodrig - 2 weeks ago

This is Bull, Caspian you JUST HAD us lock in maps where we used the Dutchy lines to determine if our kingdoms could pick in them effectively. I'm a member of Vornair where Duchies are absolutely boned by these rules regarding triple duchy placements and the number of of multi duchies allowed in a Kingdom.

Zariel - 2 weeks ago
@Lodrig:

Posted By Lodrig at 8:33 PM - Mon Nov 26 2018

This is Bull, Caspian you JUST HAD us lock in maps where we used the Dutchy lines to determine if our kingdoms could pick in them effectively. I'm a member of Vornair where Duchies are absolutely boned by these rules regarding triple duchy placements and the number of of multi duchies allowed in a Kingdom.

Agree completely. Not only did they reveal the duchy lines to give us information on picks but then they screwed us by adding rules that would've been CRUCIAL in map selection.

P.S. WHAT IS WRONG WITH Y1, Was it intentional to screw an entire duchy?

Augustus_Aquila - 2 weeks ago

Totally agree with the numbers... Good Job indeed....

Jute - 2 weeks ago

I love this solution - and would point out, to those who are complaining that they will have to "give up" titles... I feel it is a moot point because you could shift your land to a new kingdom.

I do agree if all the land is taken and someone who comes in very, very last cannot place anything in the radius they own -- those folks, at least, should get a chance to make their titles into EP... but that would be a very few number of people. Basically anyone LITERALLY forced into surrendering titles should have the option to EP exchange.

mojomonkey - 2 weeks ago

In an example of a big Duchy (2-3 Duchies combined), is the limit on multi-counties on the Duchy as a whole, or does each individual component part of the Duchy have to also meet those criteria?

VioletWinterlynn - 2 weeks ago
@mojomonkey:

Posted By mojomonkey at 8:14 PM - Mon Nov 26 2018

In an example of a big Duchy (2-3 Duchies combined), is the limit on multi-counties on the Duchy as a whole, or does each individual component part of the Duchy have to also meet those criteria?

It is the overall

Ortherion - 2 weeks ago

Full support, overly huge domains at all nobility levels would really hurt the game and future players that join us at launch.

CaptainSeli - 2 weeks ago

You won't loose your titles if you can't place in the Kingdom you selected due to there being no room.

You paid to be a Duke/Count ect. Not to be in a specific Kingdom. Worse case scenario is you'd have to pick a new Kingdom that has space. If you're dead last to pick and there's no space in any Kingdoms, I believe that you're second Domain would get turned into EP.

Labbe - 2 weeks ago
@CaptainSeli:

Posted By CaptainSeli at 6:17 PM - Mon Nov 26 2018

You won't loose your titles if you can't place in the Kingdom you selected due to there being no room.

You paid to be a Duke/Count ect. Not to be in a specific Kingdom. Worse case scenario is you'd have to pick a new Kingdom that has space. If you're dead last to pick and there's no space in any Kingdoms, I believe that you're second Domain would get turned into EP.

I can see this viewpoint, and technically it would be correct. You get either what you pay for, or compensated if at the very end of domain and settlement selection as you say you get your EP if there is nowhere for your double duchy.

However I disagree with having to choose a different domain if you are unable to get the one you want for the reason I mentioned above.

I would agree with forcing them to become a single duchy if it became an issue and giving them EP, and frankly this might be a moot point that doesn't come up, but I don't agree with either move elsewhere or lose your title with no reimbursement.

Labbe - 2 weeks ago

The only part that I find at all questionable is where you make it so that multi duchies and counties are limited, but if also if you make it to domain and settlement selection and someone you weren't planning on snipes your position on the domain you wanted you'll either need to place your sub-domain in a different domain, or forfeit the additional titles (they can no longer be exchanged for EP)

The fact that a double duke can possibly lose out on $5,000 because he is dedicated to a certain Kingdom and the multi duchy slots are full, rubs me the wrong way. I would at least re-instate the Trading for EP rule that was discussed prior.

Aside from that everything seems fair. Thank you SbS for always putting forth the extra effort to deal with these unforeseen curve-balls you get thrown in a fair manner.

Takeda_Shinukage - 2 weeks ago
@Labbe:

Posted By Labbe at 8:26 PM - Mon Nov 26 2018

The only part that I find at all questionable is where you make it so that multi duchies and counties are limited, but if also if you make it to domain and settlement selection and someone you weren't planning on snipes your position on the domain you wanted you'll either need to place your sub-domain in a different domain, or forfeit the additional titles (they can no longer be exchanged for EP)

The fact that a double duke can possibly lose out on $5,000 because he is dedicated to a certain Kingdom and the multi duchy slots are full, rubs me the wrong way. I would at least re-instate the Trading for EP rule that was discussed prior.

If they are that dedicated then they should have one of the kings reserved slots.

CountShady - 2 weeks ago
@Labbe:

Posted By Labbe at 7:26 PM - Mon Nov 26 2018

The only part that I find at all questionable is where you make it so that multi duchies and counties are limited, but if also if you make it to domain and settlement selection and someone you weren't planning on snipes your position on the domain you wanted you'll either need to place your sub-domain in a different domain, or forfeit the additional titles (they can no longer be exchanged for EP)

The fact that a double duke can possibly lose out on $5,000 because he is dedicated to a certain Kingdom and the multi duchy slots are full, rubs me the wrong way. I would at least re-instate the Trading for EP rule that was discussed prior.

Aside from that everything seems fair. Thank you SbS for always putting forth the extra effort to deal with these unforeseen curve-balls you get thrown in a fair manner.

I think there better be some refunds if somebody gets ganked out of a title due to these rules. Its pretty uncool to sell something and then watch the person who spent a lot of money on it just get screwed.

Granted, this would apply more for the transfer dbl duke rather than the bought 2 titles dbl duke due to the IP. Makes me wonder how many people might be in this situation and how bad it might be once the titles go back on sale.

LunarRevel - 2 weeks ago

After you transfer your title stack, does the system still consider you the title you transferred? If count A wanted to transfer to count B, would count A then be able to receive a mayor title after transferring so they can keep their design experience etc and also pick as a mayor into a counts land? Or does having been a count preclude you from ever being transferred a mayor title?

Contrarion - 2 weeks ago

I think is it also time to think about the casus belli rules. In particular the use of voting to dislodge NPCs, and, most importantly, single players who select in domains that interfere with the plans of out of game friendships and associations. Some players may not have much choice or be unfairly bullied out of a desired placement for out of game reasons. Some out of game deals may sour. Even if hard rules are not laid out, there should be some discussion of developer and community expectations now. My 2 cents is that the more feudal the game is, the better the game will be.

Iosef - 2 weeks ago

It's a rare experience that a studio goes out of its way to engender a culture of fairness rather than equity, while simultaneously being respectful and considerate of their community's desires. We sincerely appreciate your thoughtfulness and openness.

ShadowTani - 2 weeks ago

Posted By Caspian at

During domain/settlement selection, all your domains of the same level must be adjacent and clustered. This means they can't snake around or create lines, but must create the tightest possible grouping (they must share an increasing number of borders or points)

This makes sense for counties, which I support, but I do feel this is too strict for duchies as placements are more limited, and you can't really snake much with 3 either.

My suggestion is to keep this restriction to the county level only, as it's pointless for the kingdom level, and just unnecessarily complicates the duchy level.

Lines are probably going to happen anyway if one is forced to pick the adjacent one because the cluster option was already picked by someone else - a far bigger issue with the more limited selection duchies have. Hence why I believe it just overly complicates duchies unnecessarily.

XEroticaX - 2 weeks ago

Yes the math will help.

Zunjin - 2 weeks ago

In over 20 years of playing MMOs this seams to be about the one that is the most purely planed. I just can't stand all those changes - to stuff we already bought - anymore.

There needs to be some sort of security, especially when people, like from our community, asked multiple times over the last years, if they can gift their "unwanted" titles or some "unwanted" higher titles to their count or duke. For me it always was clear, that I don't want to have my own county, but to gift it to a friend (our duke), whose family I was planning to join.

And the thing I got told from staff was, that I will have two ways to do it. Take a county - preferable next to those of my friend - during domain-selection and gift it to him during the Exposition with a contract. OR wait until we (SBS) have implanted title gifting and gift it before domain-selection. Which for me would have been the more desirable option out of the two.

And now things seem to have changed a lot. And I am not sure, if I would have spent so much money on CoE if SBS would have told us this outcome BEFORE making us able to purchase those titles.

I am not sure how to feel about it, since at has a bit of a sour taste. #pactassuntservanda

Dyrnwyn - 2 weeks ago

The information on Duchies and Counties is very important to players just coming to the game. Comments on YouTube have assumed after the Kickstarter that Noble pkgs and Titles would all be claimed by now. We can quote these numbers for those interested. Need to get the word out!

Out of the 136 duchies, 1 person has a triple duchy, 14 people have double duchies. (136/248 claimed; 54%)

Out of the 1,330 counties, 1 person has a 6x county, 2 people have a 5x county, 6 people have a 4x county, 35 people have a triple county, and 95 people have a double county. (1,330/5,696 claimed; 23%)

Dakota - 2 weeks ago

Question about this part

"Given the above example, if you owned the duchy and two counties (+25 parcels per county) it's entirely possible that your settlement size would grow to be larger than 64 parcels. But due to the above constraint, the settlement would still be capped at 64 parcels because the county is only a 1km x 1km county."

If I have two counties would the parcel limit be increased to the size of the total parcels of both counties and not just the 1km x 1km county size?

VioletWinterlynn - 2 weeks ago
@Dakota:

Posted By Dakota at 5:57 PM - Mon Nov 26 2018

Question about this part

"Given the above example, if you owned the duchy and two counties (+25 parcels per county) it's entirely possible that your settlement size would grow to be larger than 64 parcels. But due to the above constraint, the settlement would still be capped at 64 parcels because the county is only a 1km x 1km county."

If I have two counties would the parcel limit be increased to the size of the total parcels of both counties and not just the 1km x 1km county size?

Yes, it is 25% of the overall

Caspian - 2 weeks ago
@Dakota:

You are correct. My example was not 100% correct. The double county would indeed make it a 2km x 2km or more. I'll have to update with math that correctly illustrates the point.

Protey - 1 week ago
@Caspian:

Posted By Caspian at 5:02 PM - Mon Nov 26 2018

You are correct. My example was not 100% correct. The double county would indeed make it a 2km x 2km or more. I'll have to update with math that correctly illustrates the point.

[1km x 1km] + [1km x 1km] =/= 2km x 2km. Put side by side it would be 2km x 1km.

Xerr - 2 weeks ago

Is there a minimum distance between settlements? or can like many larger cities, there be actually several cities abutting each other? EG. my friend is mayor of one city and Im mayor of another, we each represent 25% of the entire counties land mass meaning our cities which abut each other make up 50% of the total landmass.

Also,

"Given the above example, if you owned the duchy and two counties (+25 parcels per county) it's entirely possible that your settlement size would grow to be larger than 64 parcels. But due to the above constraint, the settlement would still be capped at 64 parcels because the county is only a 1km x 1km county."

did you mean the two counties together were 1km x 1km? or that he had 2x 1km x 1km counties? Just so that Im clear in my understanding.

HajimeSaito - 2 weeks ago

A fair ruling for the benefit of everyone.

XEroticaX - 2 weeks ago

This is all great information. Well needed and fair in my opinion.

Devilkyn - 2 weeks ago

Two thumbs, way up. Dad just put his foot down! :)

Dreamar - 2 weeks ago

Thank you for taking the time to view if from the perspective of those every-day, future players.

It can be easy for us county and higher levels, to forget to try look it at from that view and for our judgement to be clouded. The fewer individual domains, the larger each one is, the less varied and interesting the game would be to those future players.

It may seem like a small thing now, before the game is out, but it'll be something noticed by the gentry that will fill the game after launch.

Draguta - 2 weeks ago

Fully supported! I am glad you were able to figure out what felt wrong!

LeafyPete - 2 weeks ago

A good change

Feyreisa - 2 weeks ago

This is great! <3 Sadly there will always be at least one person who doesn't agree, but I think you've done what's fair to the largest number of people. Happy to see that you are all still so devoted to the players and just want what's best for everyone.

GrandMaster_Sic - 2 weeks ago

Thank you

CaptainSeli - 2 weeks ago

Fully support these numbers and constraints. I'm very glad SbS thought about us small fry and the future players who aren't here, but are just as important.

Rissa - 2 weeks ago

<3

Aika - 2 weeks ago

It is good that so much tought went into it! Keep up the good work

VioletWinterlynn - 2 weeks ago

The numbers seem very fair, thank you for taking the time to explain

JohnnyViscerate - 2 weeks ago

Seems fair.