COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
I really don't like this change...
+23

I'll try to make this as short as possible. But I really don't like the new design changes in Mondays update. Specifically the changes to the year length and the way player can now take over NPC's at later ages and get the same time in the game.

So my problems are as listed...

  1. Limits a players story: You can no longer live from the ages of 15 and live a full elyrian life. Your only options is to live a half life whether starting off as an older character dying at the ripe age 105, or living a young fast life. There is no possible way to be the 90 year old soldier that was fortunate and skill enough to live a long life and a life of battle. Now in order to experience the elder years of a soldier spent training young recruits or giving battle commands you have to start as a gimped character and skip the battle's that would usually gather fame. And who wants a trainer/military leader who has barely seen war?

  2. Creates an optimal age for builds: Considering you will have different attributes based on your age choosing the age of when to inhabit an NPC will be vastly too important. For example. Say from ages 60-100 players have a higher natural wisdom (just like from ages 20-60 they will be more attributed for combat) and lets say alchemy is a skill that uses wisdom. It is now beneficial for me to not take control of an NPC till the NPC is as old as possible. It makes no sense for me to start in alchemy as someone who is 15 if a person who starts at 50 will have an advantage.

  3. Limits diversity: In MMO's we all know that once something creates an advantage in the game everyone will use it. If being an older alchemist is beneficial then you can bet that most alchemists will be older. Just like warriors will stick to being younger.

In conclusion I do not like the new changes in the game. They limit the character stories, and create an optimal character creation point for everyone depending on what skill you plan on advancing, and what ages are optimal for that skill.

So what do you guys think?

P.S. Sorry if this is really unorganized. I have racing thoughts on the topic so if there are any question as to wtf I'm talking about don't be afraid to ask for clarification :).


Staff Edit (Caeoltoiri): Hey everyone! Seeing the concerns some of the community has been having, Caspian has addressed them here.

Phew. This is quite a topic. :-) Yesterday night I spent about four hours struggling to answer the questions in this thread in a number of different ways. I really didn't like any of the approaches. So today I'm going to try it a bit differently.

What I've seen from reading over this topic and all the posts is a re-occurring set of questions which seem to all stem from a few assumptions, which once clarified, make most of the concerns disappear. So, let me begin by identifying what I see are the main concerns from this topic (and all posts), and then we'll address each of them . . .

Continued here


Posted By Caspian at 3:59 PM - Fri Aug 12 2016

Skill success is determined by, in order:

  1. Player Skill
  2. Character Skill
  3. Attributes
  4. Regional Traits
  5. Bloodline

As you get older, your Attributes atrophy faster . . .

Continued here


Posted By Caspian at 5:11 PM - Fri Aug 12 2016

. . . Skill levels and Attributes are two different variables in an equation that determines your success in using a particular skill. Lowering one doesn't effect the other, however lowering either does effect your ability to succeed in a skill.

Regarding NPC 'children' . . .

Continued here


Merchants Beware of Ashy Sails..

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8/12/2016 10:50:30 PM #136
+0

Posted By Sullen at 4:03 PM - Fri Aug 12 2016

There will be definate skill degrigation after the age of 45. You will become weaker but possibly more focused. How will these degregations affect the skill ramp in the next life? Will ending a lifetime at 35 instead of 75 be benifial to a soldier? I know you are supposed to have different 'roles' in differnt part stages of life but am just curious how this will trasfer over to the ramps.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe it's your skills that degenerate when you are older but your stats. So it would be your strength and stamina that decrease, not your skill with a sword say.


8/12/2016 10:58:56 PM #137
+1

Posted By Sullen at 3:03 PM - Fri Aug 12 2016

There will be definate skill degrigation after the age of 45. You will become weaker but possibly more focused. How will these degregations affect the skill ramp in the next life? Will ending a lifetime at 35 instead of 75 be benifial to a soldier? I know you are supposed to have different 'roles' in differnt part stages of life but am just curious how this will trasfer over to the ramps.

And perhaps I am confused on the ramps. You stated the more 'time' you spend in your body the higher the potential is in the next life. Just to understand that living to 75 with degregated fighting skills will provide a higher ramp with higher potentials in the next life than dieing at 35 with high current skills

There's a difference between Attributes and Skills.

Attributes are stuff like Strength and Will, stats your character has, and are the things that get adjusted as you age. They have no influence on your skill ramps, since they're character-bound rather than soul-bound.

Skills are things like Axe-wielding or Farming, things your character learns, and while the attributes you have might make you more or less capable at those skills, they don't affect how fast those skills grow otherwise. For that matter, using a skill will often improve related attributes, like a blacksmith getting stronger the more she works the forge.

This difference is found in a lot of games, especially table-top RPGs, where you might have a low DEX score but if you train that Archery skill enough you'll do fine anyway.

There's also an additional option that opens up as you get later in life and start having trouble using your skills thanks to attribute decay: mentoring. Training other people works a lot better if you're higher ranked in the skill, and it's apparently one of the best ways to reach the top ranks of a skill, bolstering your future skill ramps.

So older characters won't be as spritely as they used to be, since their attributes are decaying, but they're also tons better at teaching other people. They can get their skills up that way instead of, say, dragging their old bones into combat.

And finally Caspian didn't mention about Story Points and how they are earned or spent. If they are part of the new system, I think when he catches his breath in a day or two he could address these questions as well. Some of the question concern how exactly they are earned, who can earn them, and how often they can be earned.

The Story Point system was talked about in Design Journal 17, in the second section. Basically, the more you follow the story, do quests, and raise skills and the like, the more story points you gain. Everyone earns them.

Mind you, higher noble ranks gain them faster, especially by taking care of the responsibilities their rank demands. But then, they have both higher risk and a higher cost involved in passing their title to their heir so the higher rate is more a balancing act than anything else.


8/12/2016 10:59:49 PM #138
+7

Skill success is determined by, in order:

  1. Player Skill
  2. Character Skill
  3. Attributes
  4. Regional Traits
  5. Bloodline

As you get older, your Attributes atrophy faster, making it harder to keep at higher values. Aging currently has no effect on any of those aside from Attributes.

Edit: Technically time (but not aging) has an effect on Regional Traits as well, as they're gained the more time you spend in a specific biome. But, that's over the course of many in-game years.


8/12/2016 11:22:19 PM #139
+0

Posted By Caspian at 3:59 PM - Fri Aug 12 2016

Skill success is determined by, in order:

  1. Player Skill
  2. Character Skill
  3. Attributes
  4. Regional Traits
  5. Bloodline

As you get older, your Attributes atrophy faster, making it harder to keep at higher values. Aging currently has no effect on any of those aside from Attributes.

Edit: Technically time (but not aging) has an effect on Regional Traits as well, as they're gained the more time you spend in a specific biome. But, that's over the course of many in-game years.

Caspian, is it still true that our npc children over 15 will permanently die in one "coup de grace"? It seems very difficult to protect an npc 24/7 and inside a minute or two window of vulnerability someone could take away a character you've spent months raising...

I want there to be consequences and danger but I'm hoping there will be ways to safeguard our npc families against casual threats and griefing...


8/12/2016 11:31:16 PM #140
+5

Posted By Dekul at 4:22 PM - Fri Aug 12 2016

Posted By Caspian at 3:59 PM - Fri Aug 12 2016

Skill success is determined by, in order:

  1. Player Skill
  2. Character Skill
  3. Attributes
  4. Regional Traits
  5. Bloodline

As you get older, your Attributes atrophy faster, making it harder to keep at higher values. Aging currently has no effect on any of those aside from Attributes.

Edit: Technically time (but not aging) has an effect on Regional Traits as well, as they're gained the more time you spend in a specific biome. But, that's over the course of many in-game years.

Caspian, is it still true that our npc children over 15 will permanently die in one "coup de grace"? It seems very difficult to protect an npc 24/7 and inside a minute or two window of vulnerability someone could take away a character you've spent months raising...

I want there to be consequences and danger but I'm hoping there will be ways to safeguard our npc families against casual threats and griefing...

If you make enemies willing to murder to get revenge then it makes sense that they would go after your children whom are younger and weaker than you. A blood feud could end up with a whole family line being wiped out, which has happened in history. Would suck to be that family, but would also make for a great story.

whistles the tune to The Rains of Castamere


8/12/2016 11:35:49 PM #141
+0

@Caspian

I just wanted to point out where I believe a lot of the confusion came from.

In the August 8th update, the news about the Elyrian Year being 7 real life days comes before the examples given in the "Ever-increasing lifespan" section of the post that has various examples of characters with ages over 100.

I am new here and really appreciate your update! Seeing a level headed response to each of the concerns the community had listed out over 8 pages shows great appreciation of the community's input and concerns.


8/12/2016 11:47:03 PM #142
+0

Color me dumb but I am still a little confused...

Attributes have an effect on the overall skill value or am I wrong here. Someone that has a high Str attribute may be better at swinging a sword than say someone with lower strength.

So as Attributes decay as you get older, won't you skill levels associatd with those attributes drop as well? Or will your skills stay the same and only your Attributes will drop?

And how will a lower overall skill level in a particular area carry over into your next life? Don't you want to keep you skills as high as possible going into your next life?

The passing of skills to the next life and the skill ramp is where I am getting confused I think.


"Count Eldric Blackmoore of The Haven, offering direct support for the Hunters, Explorers and Gathers of Elyria" the

8/12/2016 11:48:08 PM #143
+1

I also dislike this change. I'd honestly have preferred the children being 'paused' style. Then again maybe it wont be too bad. From playing Crusader kings 2 it wasn't too bad of a thing if I have a ton of control over my child's growth. But I still have no interest in playing other members of my dynasty. I want to follow 1 single line of parents and children.


8/13/2016 12:11:44 AM #144
+10

Posted By Dazzlin Flame at 4:48 PM - Fri Aug 12 2016

I also dislike this change. I'd honestly have preferred the children being 'paused' style. Then again maybe it wont be too bad. From playing Crusader kings 2 it wasn't too bad of a thing if I have a ton of control over my child's growth. But I still have no interest in playing other members of my dynasty. I want to follow 1 single line of parents and children.

Read my post above. You can, and should, play a single line.

@Sullen: Skill levels and Attributes are two different variables in an equation that determines your success in using a particular skill. Lowering one doesn't effect the other, however lowering either does effect your ability to succeed in a skill.

Regarding NPC 'children', we will more than likely make changes to the way CDG'ing NPCs works. No details yet, but the desire to have NPC's not re-spawn is focused primarily on non-villager NPCs. That is, those causing mischief.

As well, those in positions of power need to focus on protecting their families as well as themselves, but this should matter less to farmers, etc.

So, while I can't give any details yet, please understand we're aware of the effect that bringing back NPC family members has on PvP, Griefing, etc... and we will have a solution for it at some point. Trust us to think carefully through the problem and not slap on something that doesn't make sense.


8/13/2016 1:47:13 AM #145
+0

I have another question / issue to have cleared up as well, if I may.

I believe people may be making an assumption that old characters cannot be as strong as young ones, but the wording on the age affect on skills seems to be more around ease of maintaining skill levels, therefore someone who uses strength a lot will eventually hit a cap, and it will be a cap related to a few variables, such as limits of the character's heritage, soul, and the age of the character, but this is more of a soft cap since these stats must be maintained.

Would it be fair to say that characters older than 45, with effort, would still be able to maintain the strength they had when they were younger? And perhaps if they let their strength slide, THEN they would have issues getting the numbers back up?

I feel people are equating old with a lack of strength instead of a lack of upward mobility in physical stats and a higher requirement of maintenance to keep high physical stats.


8/13/2016 2:03:34 AM #146
+0

From my interpretation from Caspian's reply's was that Skills (Combat) and Attrbutes (Stength) are not interconnected in any way, although both will be used as sort of a skill check. I take that to mean that as you get older and your main attributes start to decay, your skill level will remain the constant. With the drop in attributes your skill check will also start to drop (your skill level will remain the same).

So as you get older your ability to actually fight will drop according to the skill check, however your actual skill level will remain constant so you can teach others with your skill.


"Count Eldric Blackmoore of The Haven, offering direct support for the Hunters, Explorers and Gathers of Elyria" the

8/13/2016 2:21:52 AM #147
+6

Posted By Caspian at 5:11 PM - Fri Aug 12 2016

Trust us to think carefully through the problem and not slap on something that doesn't make sense.

Dude rarely asks us for much - and hencefar, they have not done anything irrational, brash, or just plain stupid. I'm more than willing to be patient and have trust...

But please don't remove kids from the game! I do care about how hard they may (or may not) be to kill; however, from an RP perspective there is simply no "logical" excuse for having newborns take up a bacta tank for 15 years.


8/13/2016 4:01:16 AM #148
+2

Posted By seven_deadlies at 10:21 PM - Fri Aug 12 2016

Posted By Caspian at 5:11 PM - Fri Aug 12 2016

Trust us to think carefully through the problem and not slap on something that doesn't make sense.

Dude rarely asks us for much - and hencefar, they have not done anything irrational, brash, or just plain stupid. I'm more than willing to be patient and have trust...

But please don't remove kids from the game! I do care about how hard they may (or may not) be to kill; however, from an RP perspective there is simply no "logical" excuse for having newborns take up a bacta tank for 15 years.

One thing that people have to remember is that we don't even have Alpha 1 yet. If Alpha comes and NPCs are dying too fast and heirs are dying to fast they can keep adding changes until they get the number/rate that they want.


Crimson County

8/13/2016 6:06:19 AM #149
+0

Posted By seven_deadlies at 9:21 PM - Fri Aug 12 2016

Posted By Caspian at 5:11 PM - Fri Aug 12 2016

Trust us to think carefully through the problem and not slap on something that doesn't make sense.

Dude rarely asks us for much - and hencefar, they have not done anything irrational, brash, or just plain stupid. I'm more than willing to be patient and have trust...

But please don't remove kids from the game! I do care about how hard they may (or may not) be to kill; however, from an RP perspective there is simply no "logical" excuse for having newborns take up a bacta tank for 15 years.

An excellent perspective! :-) Trust these developers to do what is right by the game, they are going to take care of you. If you don't show them the trust and faith that you showed by backing them (which is what you did, you didnt put down an investment that gives you rights to make demands and thus back yourself) you backed a studio and a game development team that shares a passionate vision for a video game that we ALL want to play.

Trust is Strength my friends. :-)


8/13/2016 6:34:23 AM #150
+1

Posted By Adam Burrfoot at 2:06 AM - Sat Aug 13 2016

Posted By seven_deadlies at 9:21 PM - Fri Aug 12 2016

Posted By Caspian at 5:11 PM - Fri Aug 12 2016

Trust us to think carefully through the problem and not slap on something that doesn't make sense.

Dude rarely asks us for much - and hencefar, they have not done anything irrational, brash, or just plain stupid. I'm more than willing to be patient and have trust...

But please don't remove kids from the game! I do care about how hard they may (or may not) be to kill; however, from an RP perspective there is simply no "logical" excuse for having newborns take up a bacta tank for 15 years.

An excellent perspective! :-) Trust these developers to do what is right by the game, they are going to take care of you. If you don't show them the trust and faith that you showed by backing them (which is what you did, you didnt put down an investment that gives you rights to make demands and thus back yourself) you backed a studio and a game development team that shares a passionate vision for a video game that we ALL want to play.

Trust is Strength my friends. :-)

When my king doesn't think my perspective was excellent ;(.

Senpai will notice me one day.


Crimson County

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