the king makes the rules, if you choose to break them its treason and you should be killed. LONG LIVE THE KING!

As a baron and bounty hunter I personally take an interest in the laws. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread for insight into things. I like what I see so far.

As a Scribe with the potential of writing laws for my sovereign in the future this could get interesting.

I'd like to see modularity in a legal system, I'd also like NPCs to be able to understand it so we would realistically have a couple of "plug and play" laws that can be adjusted by lawmakers. I shall give an example below.

For this example, I shall be assuming the current quasi-feudal system that the game mechanics as described entail (as this is the only system we are likely to have for a year or more) stands.

Crafting the Law

The King creates the King's Law, this can be as complex or as simple as he likes. What the king (or the scribe the king has delegated to write the law) sees is a scroll with a series of empty boxes with drop-down selections within them allowing the king or scribe to make a series of selections to craft a law. The Duke (or his scribe) then sees on his scroll the full King's Law and a series of empty boxes that they can edit with a series of choices. This goes on with the Count seeing the Duke's Law (including the King's Law as a part of it) and Mayors seeing the Count's Law.

At each level, the author of the law can adjust whether or not authors at lower levels can adjust punishments and laws - of course, a Duke could still change the Kings law illegally (I just not certain the King would be overly happy with him)

The scroll is signed with the ring of the title holder, at which point it becomes law in the eyes of the NPCs (giving some time for distribution maybe?)

Choices

The choices available depends on the skill level of the person writing the law and the technological advancement of scribing and the law within the kingdom. This means that relatively simple laws like "Murder is illegal, punishment is death" can be written almost immediately but complex laws and punishments like town sanitation laws with a means-tested fine will take longer to develop. This includes variations on laws, early laws would make thievery illegal but as scribing skills and knowledge of the law increases specific variations on thievery might end up with different punishments (lesser punishment for petty thievery, greater for burglary or robbery.)

No level on the law contract is excluded from the choices of any other level so if the king wishes he can legislate everything from capital crimes to road widths for the entire kingdom. This means that the law can be as simple or complex as each level desires it.

I think law will be really interesting. Hopefully it'll evolve from just having a sherif/noble presiding over the case to a proper legal system with a jury of peers, nobles being held accountable etc.

Sounds like you will need people who specializes in the law areas so basically you will need lawyers then if you also have to decide if the law applies to everyone equally like what if the king breaks one of his own laws vs when a farmer dose so?

Being that this is based of a semi medieval time period i would also like some laws from those times.

the ability for Trial by Combat for instance is a fundamental thing when you think of times of old.

Currently in our RL world justice is in the realm of the rich.

IF you have the money to pay high fee lawyers the chances of you ever facing justice for your crimes is very low. so something that cuts thru this red tape and removes money from being the determining factor in a case will always be the better outcome.

also OP just a Suggestion but maybe change the shorting from SS to soul or somthing... The SS is a rather nasty group from WWII and why personally i dont take offence to it i know there are alot of people who will.

not to mention putting the Words "SS" and "LAW enforcement" together and well you see what i mean....

Good thoughts and feedback so far, everyone. I like where this is going.

Replies

Kommander Kickass

Thanks for the comment. There will be a whole bunch of these in the coming weeks as we delve into what it takes to build a legal system from the ground up. With what server/kingdom/duchy/county have you joined up?

Saap

Good to know. I’m also forming a guild by part of the name of this thread, “The Barristers,” which is meant for the legally inclined minds to work together to create some basic systems in order to establish a more functional society. But please feel free to chime in with thoughts and questions.

Chipla

I agree with your thoughts on modularity. Not everything will work for everyone, and each jurisdiction will have different values. And I like your thought on establishing limits within laws as they are passed down from level to level.

In regards to your comments on crafting, you’ve described what I hope to see exists. Granted, there will need to be mechanics in place so that “larceny” is understood by the server. My concern is how those mechanics come into play. For example, the U.S. common law definition has six parts: (1) taking and (2) carrying away of the (3) tangible property (4) of another, with the (5) intent to deprive him or her of its possession (6) permanently.

If any of those parts are missing, then it isn’t larceny. Now, the server can certainly track the first four prongs (“taking,” “carrying away,” “tangible property,” and “of another”) but intent will just not be possible. Now, I’d be happy to see these four prongs be present when setting laws. That way if you accidentally click something into your inventory, but immediately drop it, you haven’t “carried anything away” and so there is no harm, no foul. But I’m curious as to how complicated those systems will eventually be. Also, I’m curious as to how someone will be charged with a crime. Does a guard have to see you? If a player sees it, can they tell a guard? Who knows at this point?

OrangeBoy

Why would you like to see none of what I mentioned?

Barghest

I agree, and I hope it’s more than just an authority figure doling out arbitrary punishments, too.

Alien891

I have found that lawyers are good to have when there is a lack of clarity in the law. A well written contract makes litigation easy, and the same goes for laws. Sure, there will always be some room for dispute, but the clearer, the better. So having someone who specializes in the law is always good.

As for who the law applies to, well, that’s up to the Sovereign... and we’ll talk about that next week.

Mandrake1980

Trial by Combat could be interesting. It would be nice if there was a way to draw off “zones” in a town so that certain rules could or could not apply. Like, murder is illegal. But if you engage in trial by combat, and if it’s at a specific place, like an arena, then it isn’t.

I’d have to disagree with you in stating that justice is in the realm of the rich though. Money helps, yes, but money helps everything. Want to start a business? Having a cool million lying around helps a lot more than having to take out a loan. Occasionally, attorneys do pro bono work for clients with meaningful cases but are in a state of financial need. As for myself, I have worked on cases for veterans, representing them before the Department of Veterans Affairs. None of them ever had money, but I poured in hundreds of hours of work to represent them. It just varies case by case.

I think the mechanics that result in making litigation inexpensive for everyone should be left to the specific jurisdictions. Perhaps a county wants to make it expensive to litigate, offering a legal (and financial) means to attack an enemy, versus just sending hit-men to do the job. Whereas another county may very well say that litigation should be cheap, if not free, to all.

And regarding the “SS,” I was just going by the picture Soulbound Studios uses in their logo—two overlapping Ss. I could probably just change it to “Soulbound” if I have to reference it in future documents.

Posted By Achlys at 9:55 PM - Sat Jan 14, 2017

Granted, there will need to be mechanics in place so that “larceny” is understood by the server. My concern is how those mechanics come into play. For example, the U.S. common law definition has six parts: (1) taking and (2) carrying away of the (3) tangible property (4) of another, with the (5) intent to deprive him or her of its possession (6) permanently.

Theft (in England and Wales) is defined as "the dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with intention to permanently deprive the other of it" From there you get the more advanced forms of theft - robbery (theft with violence), burglary (theft with trespass), TWOC (car theft), etc etc.

The key in all of these and in most cases in English and Welsh law is the mens rea - the intention to commit the offense. The problem with comparing CoE law with real laws is whether or not the computer can judge intent. I'd say that realistically the game AI isn't going to be advanced enough to be able to judge intent - which is why I'd have the law focus on acts rather than intent (strictly for enforcement purposes). This would allow AI guards and magistrates to be able to enforce the law as well as players. Would mean that NPCs tend towards being 'hanging judges' but since players are intended to take part in trials and the like you can always make it part of your defense if you're lucky enough to get a player magistrate.

My dream position is to be a guard of some sort, so long as I get some swanky armor and a nice long spear.

On a more serious note, the citizens need to know an agent of the Crown when they see one, and that brings up the question of how equipment and rations will be distributed to the various cogs in the legal machine. I'm fairly new to this, so I don't know if there's any way to mass produce customizable surcoats, shield patterns, and/or banners. No matter what there's going to be lots of logistics involved.

I can't speak for others, but as a local Count, I may be presiding over cases in court. Still an unknown.

There may be no means of ensuring 100% success but I will do my utmost to ensure justice is done. If anyone in the county has relevant information or reports underhanded behaviour I will certainly record it and look into it.

I will take a very hard line on all manner of criminal activity in my county and ensure it's the victims that benefit.

If you struggle to get by or want to work hard and cant find opportunities, get word to me.

In short, I suspect most magistrates will take the same view though.

On a related note, if you find loopholes or exploits during alpha or beta, raise them as bugs. This is exactly the sort of thing that needs to be looked out for ;)

Oracle do you mean a loophole in the laws them selfs because I think most that will specialize in the law will look for those just to use them to there own advantage but that's part of the job as I see it

eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth. Let the punishment fit the crime. Murder is murder, theft is theft. if you taketh away, then something will be taken away from you. I would elaborate more but i am short on time, but i think that is the jist of it.along with a judicial system and presenting evidence of said crimes and tried by a jury of their peers.

Posted By Drakvon at 07:56 AM - Sun Jan 15 2017

eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth. Let the punishment fit the crime. Murder is murder, theft is theft. if you taketh away, then something will be taken away from you. I would elaborate more but i am short on time, but i think that is the jist of it.along with a judicial system and presenting evidence of said crimes and tried by a jury of their peers.

What if someone kills in self defense or feels like a threat to him or his others is real and stops it before it happens I see where eye for an eye works but it also has some major drawbacks