COMMUNITY - FORUMS - GENERAL DISCUSSION
Tell me how this will not become a PvE game.
-27

Let me start off with the push for the 10 year story. This seems to be a big part of the game. It's also something that most PvP people will ignore. I want to believe that there can be a decent amount of PvP in this game while the story is being played out but it is starting to seem like it isn't going to be that way.

Currently the community for CoE is leaning towards the PvE crowd and right now with all of the "Caspian will protect us" thoughts from that crowd, it seems that either the game will either lose a lot of people playing due to the pvp and them not getting the protection from it or SBS will be forced to "adjust fire" and make it more friendly to the people who have no desire for pvp combat.

I want to believe Caspian n crew can pull off a balance of the two. Can SBS explain what their actions would be if all of the PvE backers quit playing due to the possible chaotic world this game has the promise of.


Friend code: 172B2A

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2/16/2017 1:25:03 AM #1
+116

I want to believe that there can be a decent amount of PvP in this game while the story is being played out but it is starting to seem like it isn't going to be that way.

Can you define PvP?

Currently the community for CoE is leaning towards the PvE crowd...

Generally speaking, other games define PvE and PvP in two broad categories. PvE is anything not requiring combat with another player and PvP being anything that requires combat with another player.

These are weak definitions in CoE. In CoE, PvP is defined as your ability to impact other players in a way that effects their competitive advantage over you.

This can range from economical, to physical, to social. In which case, CoE is far more 'PvP' based than most other MMOs to date. You can force someone out of a market, steal from them, decide not to teach them skills, spread rumors about them, lie about them, commit espionage against them, prevent them from completing contracts, and yes, even attack them. If you really wanted to, and were willing to pay the heavy price for it, you could even inflict them with grievous wounds and force them to Spirit Walk.

The point I'm trying to make is that virtually everything you do in CoE to 'get ahead' comes at the cost of someone else. You want to build a nice settlement with your friends? Excellent! But the resources you're collecting to do so is resources others won't have available. And if your settlement starts to grow in reputation, it could even draw PCs and NPCs from neighboring settlements to yours, lowering their income and reducing their wealth.

That aside, if I were going to define PvE in CoE, I'd say it's the activities you'd do as a result of the dynamic story engine. But here's the kicker... the story engine is designed to create content by putting the players against one another. So much of the 'PvE' content that people will experience will still be PvP in the way I've defined it above.

That's not to say that occasional dungeons won't pop up with cool encounters. But CoE isn't a game where people either go do raids or go do arena/battlegrounds. Sure, we could create some story arc where skeletons rise from the graves and come to trounce you in the nearby settlement.... but we're just as likely to create a story arc which would encourage the neighboring settlement to come trounce you instead.

right now with all of the 'Caspian will protect us' thoughts from that crowd

The crowds are wrong if that's what they're saying. I'm the DM, and I am writing a story to challenge and entertain you. But I make no promises of your survival.

Can SBS explain what their actions would be if all of the PvE backers quit playing due to the possible chaotic world this game has the promise of.

This is not a game for people who don't want to be impacted by others. That said, there's a difference between the various types of conflict, and it's true, we discourage unplanned, random physical attacks against others, and the laws and punishments will be harsh - just like in our world.

If the 'PvPers' can't stretch their imagination beyond just walking around smacking people with weapons, unless they're very good at both combat and not getting caught, they're going to quickly find this is not the game for them.


2/16/2017 5:15:10 AM #2
+45

These kind of well crafted and thought out responses by Caspian is one reason why I have pledged as deeply as I have and became a Duke.

As a game designer Caspian clearly has a very deep grasp of the age old MMO debate of PvE vs PvP. He is developing game mechanics to tear up that tired construct and bring something truly revolutionary to MMO genre.

As he said in his response for his Elyrian World he is creating. You have to look beyond the simple, tired, whack and hack mechanics of most MMO games. Killing everyone you see without a real reason will bring great consequences.

I find it funny why most people only see PvP as combat related. This game honestly will be the most PvP centric game ever made. The Dance of Dynasties is only the tip of the iceberg of this deep level of story and drama.

The game mechanics as proposed appeal to all sides of that debate of PvE vs PvP. Why I have such high hopes for this game to succeed. I think Caspian has found that design magic to bridge that divide between each camp.

2/16/2017 2:29:36 PM #3
+9

Thank you Caspian.. Do you mind if I share your response?


Friend code: 172B2A

2/16/2017 3:06:38 PM #4
+8

Can SBS explain what their actions would be if all of the PvE backers quit playing due to the possible chaotic world this game has the promise of.

This is not a game for people who don't want to be impacted by others. That said, there's a difference between the various types of conflict, and it's true, we discourage unplanned, random physical attacks against others, and the laws and punishments will be harsh - just like in our world.

How much leeway is the nobility going to have with these laws and punishments. For instance say I wanted my Duchy to be a haven for the murderous, thieving bastards I love so much, but I want them to not murder and thieve inside my Duchy boundaries, will I be able to write the laws that would make this possible. Or will all murderous, thieving bastards be outlaws everywhere?


2/16/2017 4:04:50 PM #5
+9

Caspians responce got me excited for this game on an entirely new level -

"But I make no promises of your survival." - Caspian

^^ This is going in my signature line - I call dibs lol


Vornair/ Somerset /// Guild Leader Apollo

2/16/2017 5:34:33 PM #6
+5

Excellent response Caspian. Thank you.


2/21/2017 2:02:10 PM #7
+6

Caspian or any other admin.. Can the reply be quoted or can this thread be moved to public view? Honestly I believe Caspian's response is awesome but I feel that most of the community doesn't quite have a grip on the game and how cut throat it can be.


Friend code: 172B2A

6/5/2017 3:34:05 PM #8
+4

Bump - requesting to move non NDA forums


Friend code: 172B2A

6/5/2017 4:36:11 PM #9
+32

As the OP's topic did not include any information subject to NDA, the motion to move this thread to the public forums has been approved and carried.

-bangs gavel-


6/5/2017 4:48:53 PM #10
+6

Caspian will protect us.


6/5/2017 4:56:22 PM #11
+1

PvP defined: pitting my skills with the combat system in the game against the skills of another player and sending them to the incapacitated or spirit walking state, with the purpose of removing their kebabs for the glory of my kingdom, Duchy, county or personal gain.


6/5/2017 4:58:59 PM #12
-3

I understand that unplanned random physical attacks will be discouraged, but what about planned official physical attacks? Ones made by those in power, or by hired mercenaries? What avenues will there be to allow actual violence and PVP to take place officially without feeling like it's intentionally kept contained to it's own corner?

I do plan on playing a physical combat PVP character, and I'm worried there either wont be enough opportunities to use my combat skills for actual combat with others, OR those events of actual combat will feel too scripted like a soccer scrimmage, and become too predictable.

So my question is, what will you do to ensure those of us who do want real combat based PVP don't feel boxed in or set aside for the sake of others feeling safe in everything they do? What ways will groups OR individuals be able to officially attack others?

Side note: EVE online solved this by creating lawless or simi-lawless areas for more violent characters to play in. I'd like to see how this game caters to the combat based PVP audience, since there hasn't been too much talk about this yet.


6/5/2017 5:08:52 PM #13
+5

Posted By HeartOverBlade at 11:58 AM - Mon Jun 05 2017

I understand that unplanned random physical attacks will be discouraged, but what about planned official physical attacks? Ones made by those in power, or by hired mercenaries? What avenues will there be to allow actual violence and PVP to take place officially without feeling like it's intentionally kept contained to it's own corner?

I do plan on playing a physical combat PVP character, and I'm worried there either wont be enough opportunities to use my combat skills for actual combat with others, OR those events of actual combat will feel too scripted like a soccer scrimmage, and become too predictable.

So my question is, what will you do to ensure those of us who do want real combat based PVP don't feel boxed in or set aside for the sake of others feeling safe in everything they do? What ways will groups OR individuals be able to officially attack others?

Side note: EVE online solved this by creating lawless or simi-lawless areas for more violent characters to play in. I'd like to see how this game caters to the combat based PVP audience, since there hasn't been too much talk about this yet.

Laws are there and they will do some good. But think of the areas between towns and strongholds as a place that will have more pvp, which is why it's been said you may want to hire guards when traveling. Especially if you have things to protect.


Friend code: 172B2A

6/5/2017 5:23:25 PM #14
+8

Posted By HeartOverBlade at 09:58 AM - Mon Jun 05 2017

I understand that unplanned random physical attacks will be discouraged, but what about planned official physical attacks? Ones made by those in power, or by hired mercenaries? What avenues will there be to allow actual violence and PVP to take place officially without feeling like it's intentionally kept contained to it's own corner?

I do plan on playing a physical combat PVP character, and I'm worried there either wont be enough opportunities to use my combat skills for actual combat with others, OR those events of actual combat will feel too scripted like a soccer scrimmage, and become too predictable.

So my question is, what will you do to ensure those of us who do want real combat based PVP don't feel boxed in or set aside for the sake of others feeling safe in everything they do? What ways will groups OR individuals be able to officially attack others?

Side note: EVE online solved this by creating lawless or simi-lawless areas for more violent characters to play in. I'd like to see how this game caters to the combat based PVP audience, since there hasn't been too much talk about this yet.

There are plenty of legal ways to get your violent PvP. War is a big one. Enforcing the law is also a dependable source for violence. Dueling and tournaments. Gladiatorial contests, or trials by combat.


6/5/2017 5:32:44 PM #15
+16

These threads are a source of entertainment.

Posted By Kab at

Let me start off with the push for the 10 year story. This seems to be a big part of the game. It's also something that most PvP people will ignore.

Says who? If you have no interest in a game but wanting to poke people with a sword, well that's pretty sad for you, and you might as well look for a game where the only functionality is being able to poke someone with a sword. That said, there are lots of games out there which have that functionality. If they were that engrossing and the player base were that easily pleased, you'd be over there playing on them now, not looking for alternatives again. I think you'll find many PvP players, contrary to your opinion are loving the scope of Elyria. There are also a huge number of casual PvPers, the like of whom used to play PvE wow and have fun in the BGs etc.

I want to believe that there can be a decent amount of PvP in this game while the story is being played out but it is starting to seem like it isn't going to be that way.

What strange thought process led you to that conclusion?

Currently the community for CoE is leaning towards the PvE crowd and right now with all of the "Caspian will protect us" thoughts from that crowd,

Do you mean most of the community are the PvE crowd? If so, you're quite right. Polls and feedback seem to suggest that 2/3 or more are PvE oriented players. However, I don't think anyone is thinking "Caspian will protect us". The statement itself seems to suggest you are a little insecure, and have high expectations for yourself.

Protect us from what exactly? Elyria has a wide range of mechanics that to some extent put the power with the player base. You're looking at a kingdom based game with survival, population hubs, justice system mechanics and laws just to name a few.

Were you hoping for a game where the unskilled playerbase were "powerless" and could be picked off one by one by opportunists? If you picture strapping on a sword and roaming the countryside killing everyone with ease though, it sounds like you want "Kitty island adventure". You're going to need to sleep, you're going to need to eat and drink. You're going to need decent equipment. You're going to need to cope with changes of climate if you travel, and tribes with different strengths to you. You're going to need to deal with countless dangers, some of which you will find above your skill. You're going to need to cope with groups of enemies working collectively to capture you if you commit crimes. You're going to have to cope with people banding together to face off threats

Are you imagining "PvP" means "EASY PvP"? If so, you need to skill up and learn to play better. If you're a hardcore PvPer, embrace the challenge and man up, not whine that it's looking "too hard for you as a PvPer".

There will be good places for PvP and bad places. Read down.

it seems that either the game will either lose a lot of people playing due to the pvp and them not getting the protection from it or SBS will be forced to "adjust fire" and make it more friendly to the people who have no desire for pvp combat.

Why's that? There is already a full justice and survival system. The latter will encourage people to form settlements and work as a larger group. In turn that will increase their defence against lone predators. Just because people many people don't want to be mindlessly mashing buttons in PvP all day doesn't mean they won't turn around and whack the poop out of someone who comes into their settlement and picks a fight. The risk of being caught and suffering justice system penalties in some regards evens the tables. A PvPer may be more skilled but if their mentality is to troll and commit crimes, they will bear most of the risk.

I'm not a big PvP fan but do the odd bit. Personally I find the game is going in the right direction, and based on polls, the vast majority of the 2/3 of non PvP-fans are more than happy to fight in a defensive capacity, so it's looking like everyones being catered for at the moment. The game works best when there are PvP opportunities, but the game doesn't spiral into a pointless round of wondering the countryside in groups hitting each other, losing out in the vast richness Elyria has to offer. That isn't, and never was the way Elyria was portrayed. It's far better than that.

The best way to do that is often to promote "good PvP" instead of "bad PvP". Read down.

I want to believe Caspian n crew can pull off a balance of the two.

I can see you "want" to believe it, but you should take more time reading the facts. There's currently no reason "not" to believe it, so give it a go.

Can SBS explain what their actions would be if all of the PvE backers quit playing due to the possible chaotic world this game has the promise of.

You only have to look at the % of PvP vs PvE servers on games like WoW etc to see how the player base is distributed, but in short, that's something SBS are very conscious of. Time after time they have made well thought out and well reasoned decisions to reduce that risk. They are well aware of the need for a degree of balance.

Good PvP

There will undoubtedly be circumstances and environments, including wars, where PvP is safer and purposeful, and within the law. In such environments you have the added security of groups to protect you from many dangers, but you may well find yourself pitted against equal numbers or worse odds. That's where your skill and strategy may come into play. But kingdom wars ARE a thing. There will be many other demands for keen fighters too, including fighting with those involved in "bad PvP", and dealing with countless other threats, so of which may really tax you. Arenas have also been mentioned.

Bad PvP

There will be situations where PvP is forced upon others without purpose too, other than to prop up the ego of someone who leads a sad and empty life and finds joy in irritating others. There, the justice system takes a small role, and the many other systems make the challenge all the harder. But then, if you're really a skilled PvPer, you aren't pathetic enough to be trying to hit unwilling simple farmers and unskilled players for your own pleasure are you? Presumably you'll be out in the war zones looking for other skilled PvPers? A failing game is one that promotes success in bad PvP above good PvP. But then as a PvP player, bad PvP doesn't take skill, just a bad attitude. If you fall under the category of being an unskilled PvPer who only has interest in "bad PvP", then quite frankly you get what you deserve, and that's where many of Elyria's mechanics will quite rightly stack the odds against you. I won't say it's not possible. It will be, but have no expectation of it being an easy life.

In short, Elyria looks to offer something for everyone, but in a well balanced and well thought out manner.


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