The Nitty-Gritty

So we talked (for perhaps too long) about directions and their consequences, now let's get down to brass tacks.

Thrusts vs. Cuts/Swinging Attacks

Having thrusts as well as swinging attacks on the same weapons allows for yet more gameplay options. It would be kinda boring if we only had one kind of attack, right? Not to mention many weapons are deadly with both the cut and the thrust.

Thrusts could use a separate button to perform (maybe swing with left click and thrust with right?) or perhaps the different attack types would depend on how long you held the attack button.

In the previous section, we spoke about the directions with regards to swinging attacks. The same rules could in general apply to thrusts:

• a thrust from the right is a simple forehand thrust

• from the left would be a backhand thrust (Imagine moving your right hand to the left side of your body and then thrusting)

• above would be thrusting down with your hand above your head

• below would be a thrust at the feet/legs with the hand low.

In that sense, Thrusts are similar to swings/cuts, but they would differ in a few ways:

• Thrusts are faster: Pretty obvious, I suppose.

• Thrusts are always easy to sidestep: Even thrusts from the left/right (or mid in h/m/l) are easy to avoid by moving horizontally. To compensate, thrusts from left/right (or mid) should be the fastest.

• Damage will differ: This will depend on weapons, which will be detailed later. Suffice it to say, some weapons will be better at cutting or bashing, some at thrusting, and many can do both effectively. There is also the consideration of the target's armour, which again will be covered later.

• Thrusts are more vulnerable when parried or clashed: (See the respective sections for parries and clashes below) If an opponent parries your thrust, you will be staggered for longer. If your thrust clashes with a swing, instead of the usual clash scenarios you will simply be staggered for even longer than if you were parried.

Blocking

Directional: Blocking is fundamental to directional combat. It's the entire reason for having attacks come from different directions in the first place! Obviously, your block will need to correspond to the direction of the incoming attack. An attack from the left must be blocked on the left, etc.

OR

Conventional: In a high/mid/low system, the block button would by default block mid. To block high or low, you would just press block + whatever input is used for high or low attacks.

Blocking would require its own button. When pressed alongside a directional input, you will block attacks from that direction.

Blocking with a single weapon (1h or 2h)

Block stays active until an action is performed: You press the block button and the direction and you block on that side until you attack or do something else. You would be able to move while blocking.

You could make it so that the block button must be held and limits movement, but I feel that blocking doesn't need to be any more punishing when there are already multiple directions for attacks to come from. For those that want something with a little more risk-reward, you can try to parry the incoming attack instead, which I will cover soon.

What happens when an attack is blocked? Blocking should keep the battle fairly neutral, with neither player gaining much of an advantage. When an attack is blocked, both the attacker and defender stagger for a brief time. The defender can continue to block during this time so as to deal with multiple attackers.

What about Shields?

In some games, shields can be a bit boring. They engender passivity by encouraging you to just hold up your shield because then nothing can hurt you while also preventing you from making an attack while doing so. This is not how shields were meant to be used!

The specifics here will depend on what kind of shield you're using (Big round shields, smaller round or heater shields, bucklers, kite shields, huge shields like a Roman Scutum), but here are the general rules:

• Shields block directionally: A shield can block left, right, or above just like a weapon. Some taller shields will also block low, but smaller shields leave you open to low attacks. Specifics will be detailed later.

• You can attack while blocking with a shield! This is crucial to making shield play less boring. You can be blocking your opponent's strike on the left side while delivering a strike to their head. You may not be able to make attacks from certain directions while blocking from certain directions, depending on the type of shield (more details later).

• Block + down will allow you to hunker down behind the shield: This will also depend on what kind of shield you have. When hunkered down you cannot attack and may move slowly (maybe not at all), but you will block attacks from all directions.

• Shields can break or be moved out of the way: Shields are (generally) made of wood, and such can be broken with repeated strikes. Some weapons have hooks on them that can disarm (dis-shield?) a shielded opponent unless they react in time. This provides a way to beat people who cower behind their shield.

• Shields block projectiles: Seems obvious but still bears mentioning. Larger shields will block projectiles while blocking in any direction, while with smaller ones you must hunker down (block + down). Bucklers probably can't block projectiles at all.

The "Weapons and Armour" section will have more on shields (Coming Soon)

Screw shields, I wanna hold two weapons like a badass!

Well too bad, that's not realistic.

Just kidding, there are practical reasons to dual-wield. However, this section is way too long so I'll save the dual-wielding for later, I promise.

Dodging/Dashing/Quick-Stepping

So what if I want to just move out of the way instead of blocking? In addition to your regular stepping slowly out of the way, you can dodge to avoid attacks. Many game make it such that Double-tapping a movement direction will allow you to quickly dodge, and I think this works well here too.

• Double-tap "A" or "D" keys (left or right movement) to do a quick sidestep. This will allow you to quickly move a few steps to the left or right, avoiding vertical attacks and thrusts.

• Double-tap "S" key (backward) for a backstep. This will allow you to move back out of harm's way, but also leave you out of reach to retaliate with your own attacks. A good option if you intend to run away from the fight.

• Double-tap "W" key (forward) for a lunge. Wait... how is that a dodge? It is if your opponent is behind you! You never know where someone might come from in CoE, after all. This will allow you to quickly step forward a few paces, allowing you to avoid that backstabbing rogue.

Attacks can be performed while dodging for extra mobility. These attacks would take a little longer to prevent them from being spammed all the time, but the ability to lunge forward and thrust should still be able to catch an opponent off-guard. Perhaps you will also suffer from extra stagger if you are hit while dodging in order to make it more risky.

Parrying

If you can really read your opponent, you can gain the upper hand by performing a parry. You can do this by performing a swing in the same direction as the incoming attack right as you are about to be hit. The exact timing could depend on your agility stat, with higher agility providing more leeway to get it right. If performed correctly, you will do a cool parry animation and push your foe's blade out of the way. This is similar to a block except you will not be staggered but your opponent will be. In general, you should gain the upper hand but your opponent should still have time to block a follow-up attack you might make unless they're really low on stamina or something. In fact, maybe they'll manage to parry you back! A chain of attacks and parries between a pair of skilled players could make for an exciting spectacle.

Feints

Having the option to feint is another simple way to add greater potential for mindgames and prediction to the combat. A feint could be performed by pressing a designated feint key in order to cancel your attack, but this could lead to attacks becoming too safe. Instead, feints should be executed by performing a different attack input before the attack becomes active. You will immediately transition into the new attack animation. However, you must not be able to chain feints indefinitely. This means that performing a feint is an actual commitment while still leaving room for some tricky play.

Grappling

Grappling allows you to get around an opponent's block if you can manage to get really close to them. If you have a free hand (you're using a weapon in only one hand) and perform a grapple while next to an opponent, you can attempt to enter a grapple and perhaps throw or pin them. I believe it has been shown that there is a grappling skill level in the game so that might play a role here

If you are instead using a weapon 2-handed, you can bash the opponent with the pommel of your sword or butt-end of your spear. This would hit them through a block, stagger them, and push them back away from you.

With a shield, you can perform a shield bash instead. This is similar to the above, except for a special case. If you perform a shield bash just as an attack is about to hit you, like a parry you can get their weapon stuck in your shield! This will cause them to be disarmed, but it will also break your shield. This can of course only be performed with wooden shields, performing this with a metal shield will simply be the same as blocking the attack normally.

You can defend against a grapple by doing a grapple yourself. If you are already in a grapple animation while hit by a grapple, it will fail and you'll both be briefly staggered. Once your opponent has started grappling you, there is a short window where you can break out of the grapple with your own.

Clash!

When two attackers have their swings collide (the attack hitboxes active and in contact), a clash happens. Both players will have a short window to do one of three things:

• Press the Swing attack button to disarm the opponent: You enter into a bind with the opponent and knock their weapon out of their hands.

• Press Thrust to immediately stab your opponent: From this bound position you extend your sword, getting a free hit in.

• Grapple to knock your opponent down.

If both players manage to press one of these buttons with the required timing, then both players would simply stagger as if they had blocked an attack.

Alternatively, there could be a rock/paper/scissors relationship with these options when both players press one of them. Disarm beats stab, stab beats grapple, grapple beats disarm. This might be unnecessarily complicated though.

Combos

Combos can be a difficult subject. In many fighting games, there are specific strings of attacks and inputs that can be pressed with precise timing in order to execute them without the opponent being able to retaliate. I'm not sure if this is a good idea for CoE, but I can see the appeal of rewarding a player for pressing buttons with good timing. With that in mind, perhaps a combo system could work by allowing follow-up attacks to come out faster if they are pressed just as the previous attack is ending. Maybe the attacks would also have to be coming from a different direction, both in order to make it more interesting and also to represent the idea that you're using the weapon's existing momentum and redirecting it in order to continuously attack.

Next up, weapons and armor!

Dual-wielding coming soon

Weapons and Armor

Here is the fun part. In this section, I'll go over ideas for properties of armor and various weapons. Oh yeah, I also said I would put some shield details down here, so I may as well get to that first.

Shields of all sorts

First, a brief note on wood vs. metal. The vast majority of shields will be made of wood as it's substantially cheaper and lighter. Wooden shields can be used to get opponents' weapons stuck as detailed in the Grappling section, but they are breakable. Metal shields are heavy, expensive, and cannot get weapons stuck. For these reasons, bucklers are usually the only ones that are made of metal. However, a metal shield cannot be broken like a wooden one.

Now for the major shield types:

• Large Round Shield (Viking Shield): With a large round shield, projectiles are blocked regardless of which direction you are blocking in. You can attack while blocking, but not from the same direction you are blocking. If you block left, you cannot attack from the left as the shield is too large and gets in the way. Yes, you can even block right and attack left, even though this would cross your arms. If you ever watch someone doing historical reconstructions with a viking shield, you will see that this is certainly a viable tactic.

• Heater Shield and Smaller Round Shields: In order to block projectiles, you need to hunker down with these shields. However, you can attack from any direction while blocking as they are smaller and don't get in the way.

• Bucklers: These little guys can't block projectiles, but they are still very handy. They are quite light and nimble, and thus should be able to go from your belt to your hand very quickly. Though small, you can still hunker down behind them (you extend your arm forward so far that you can intercept attacks long before they can reach you). Just like the heater shield, you can attack from any direction while blocking with a buckler.

• Kite Shields: These are those shields that are round at the top and then extend downwards into a long reverse-teardrop shape. These shields can block low while also blocking left or right. Since the shields are so long, both left and right are blocked while blocking high but you can only swing from high or low while doing so since the extended part would block horizontal cuts but the shield is narrow enough that you can block high while performing a cut from above.

• Huge Shields (Like a Scutum) These shields resemble huge, concave rectangles. Just like viking shields, they always block projectiles. When blocking left or right, all directions are blocked except for the opposite one, and attacks cannot be made from the blocked side. When blocking high, all directions except low are blocked, but only low attacks can be made. To compensate for their incredible coverage, these shields must be extremely cumbersome, limiting movement and being a pain to carry around.

Speaking of these larger shields, there's an idea that I want to address...

Some things are cumbersome

In reality, the main advantage swords have over other types of weapons is that they can effectively be carried around on the hip as a side-arm without getting in the way. When it comes to larger weapons like pole-arms and the larger shields, these are things that should not be so simple to run around with. Larger weapons and shields could take much longer to equip in order to balance out their power. Spears and shields would take a long time to draw from the back into a usable position, whereas a dagger or buckler could be drawn from the belt near-instantly. Some things may even be so large that they must be carried around and cannot be strapped to the body at all, but I'm not sure if SBS is willing to go this route with weapons as players may find it annoying.

There is also the consideration of carrying weight and how it affects stamina. In fact, speaking of being encumbered...

Armor and Damage Types

Armor is something that is hard to get right. You can just do a standard percentage damage mitigation which is easy to balance but also really boring. Instead, I had something a little different in mind.

Wearing armor should change the way you play and the way others play against you. When you don a suit of armor, the weight will tire you out. Movement in armor should drain stamina faster, making it inefficient to wear it all the time. A bandit wearing simple clothing will be able to escape from an armored knight by being able to sustain running for longer. Armor is something you wear on the battlefield (or for show), not everyday lounge wear.

Of course, heavier armor must provide great protection. Some types of armor will completely mitigate some types of attacks. Metal armors are unable to be cut, but may still take some blunt damage from heavier slashing weapons. In general these armors still take blunt damage but mitigate it somewhat. Smacking someone in the head will still hurt even if they are wearing a fully enclosed helmet.

Padded/Gambeson

Thick, quilted cloth, usually worn underneath other armor but sometimes alone. Provides decent protection from piercing, slashing and bludgeoning attacks alike, but perhaps is vulnerable to rending attacks like the claws of a bear.

Mail, Brigantines and various types of Lamellar

These armor types are largely immune to being cut. They can be pierced, but higher quality versions will have greater resistance to piercing. Some types of arrows (bodkin) and very fine-pointed swords may have a bonus against these armors.

Plate Armor

The best of the best (although there are better and worse plate armor sets and more advanced designs). Slashing will only deal some blunt force, and even most piercing is ineffective. An attack from a particularly powerful bow at close range may still stagger and deliver some blunt damage. Heavier piercing weapons such as flanged maces, morningstars, or the spike end of some pole weapons may have a bonus against plate.

Some particularly massive and deadly creatures may have attacks that can rip through your armor no matter what you're wearing, but hopefully you'll never run into any of those.

Now I some might be thinking "what about the gaps in the armor?" This is a difficult thing to address. It's not exactly feasible to aim at tiny hurtboxes in a game like this. There is a potential solution, but some may really dislike it...

Critical Hits

What's this? Luck-based elements in this skill-based game? Blasphemy!

I know many may feel this way, but hear me out. The point isn't to make a combat end in a single lucky strike. Having critical hits allows it to be so that even a heavily-armored opponent can get hit sometimes by humble spear. When a critical hit happens, the attack bypasses the outer layer of armor, instead hitting the layer underneath. The chance to be critically hit would depend on the attacker's agility and/or weapon skill, the weapon being used, and the type or armor you are wearing. If you're unarmored, a critical hit should not end the fight instantly (as that wouldn't be very fun), instead perhaps causing some extra damage over time as a bleed.

Having some weapons specialized in dealing critical hits will provide another strategic option for approaching combat while also allowing players to feel like their character is skillfully hitting their target's weakpoints for those who like that kind of character. However, the developers may feel that the chance-based elements have no place in the combat system, which is an understandable stance.

Coming Soon: Weapons!

Well, here you go, you are #49148

Now get in the back of the que of people who have suggested they use directional combat.

/s

Great post though, very detailed. The more I read Combat threads the more I think this community has in common with my friends on steam:

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised anyone actually managed to read through the post. Many thanks to the both of you.

FIrst, I have to correct a huge mistake I made that led to TorenHansson's confusion. When speaking of "freeform" attacks, I was addressing the idea that the game could feature a system like the upcoming game Mordhau where attacks could be made at any angle imaginable. For some reason, I mistakenly thought that Chivalry also worked this way. Apparently it's been far too long since I played it, because it doesn't work like that at all.

I did not mean to suggest that the game needed a targeting system or anything like that, just that there should be set directions as opposed to allowing you to make any angle you wanted. The 4-directional system would basically work like Mount and Blade.

With regards to the added depth of directional attacks, I agree that it would make the combat more meaningful for those who were focused on it. I just wanted to acknowledge that many people would appreciate a simpler system with cleaner controls. Making sure the system is approachable can really help some people get into it, whereas they may be intimidated by the complexity of having separate inputs for 4 different directions (even if it is just based on mouse movement).

I see what you're saying for Feints, it does seem much more reasonable to make it so that you can only feint into another attack rather than just stopping completely. It looks less silly and also is more consistent gameplay-wise.

I wanted to include things like ducking and lean-backs but the post was already getting overwhelmingly long. Also when it comes to leaning out of the way I was worried that the animation might be too subtle.

A fairly thorough post, but keep in mind that the devs already have some ideas pertaining to combat and I don't see anything in the post pertaining to what they already have.

Basically one of the few ideas put forth by the devs is combos, I would assume that attack timing has a lot to do with combos and would probably work more smoothly with free form attacks than the directional. Just my two cents after reading your post.

Posted By Valupeh at 4:49 PM - Sun Apr 30 2017

A fairly thorough post, but keep in mind that the devs already have some ideas pertaining to combat and I don't see anything in the post pertaining to what they already have.

Basically one of the few ideas put forth by the devs is combos, I would assume that attack timing has a lot to do with combos and would probably work more smoothly with free form attacks than the directional. Just my two cents after reading your post.

Combos could work within a system like this. I would suggest something like having it so that a combo could be executed by following up with an attack in a different direction. If they wanted the combos to work more like an action game where it's simply pressing the same attack button repeatedly with a correct timing, that could easily work too.

The devs haven't really said too much about combat other than that. They mentioned parrying at one point and I think a system kind of like that was in the first PAX demo, but I could be mistaken.

Also, my comment about freeform attacks was poorly described. I meant something like Mordhau is gonna have where you can make attacks from any possible angle. I think I may get rid of that section entirely as it has little to do with the actual ideas.

MReal, what a great synthesis of options! Can't wait for the Weapons & Armor segment!

I'm no expert on gaming combat, but I personally haven't ever seen 'feints' realized. What a breakthrough that would be! Great inclusion.

Really enjoyed the read that reveals a perspective of such game balance.

With regard to mass combat, I wonder if there's an advantage to taking NPC v. NPC matches 'behind the curtain' for some simpler resolution computation--so PC combats might enjoy a little more sophistication? 'Combat scenery animation' could provide the necessary background ambiance, while PCs paid attention to the foe in front of them in all its visceral range of permutation.

Just a thought, anyway....

Posted By Ecir_Edyah at 5:24 PM - Sun Apr 30 2017

MReal, what a great synthesis of options! Can't wait for the Weapons & Armor segment!

I'm no expert on gaming combat, but I personally haven't ever seen 'feints' realized. What a breakthrough that would be! Great inclusion.

Really enjoyed the read that reveals a perspective of such game balance.

With regard to mass combat, I wonder if there's an advantage to taking NPC v. NPC matches 'behind the curtain' for some simpler resolution computation--so PC combats might enjoy a little more sophistication? 'Combat scenery animation' could provide the necessary background ambiance, while PCs paid attention to the foe in front of them in all its visceral range of permutation.

Just a thought, anyway....

Thank you, I kind of regret making it so excruciatingly long but I'm glad some people were able to get through it and found it interesting.

With regards to NPC combat, that's an interesting idea. Perhaps NPCs would just use simpler attack/block models when targeting each other.

Interested to see your view on ranged weapons. I plan to play explorer, and I see my main weapons being a bow and war axe. Great post.

Posted By Rojinn at 5:49 PM - Sun Apr 30 2017

Interested to see your view on ranged weapons. I plan to play explorer, and I see my main weapons being a bow and war axe. Great post.

Thanks. One of the main reasons I didn't talk about ranged weapons yet is that Caspian actually mentioned in the most recent Q&A that they have some stuff planned to make ranged weapons challenging to use (I believe he mentioned wind speed in particular). I may get into ranged weapons in the next section.

Good post . I vote for all directional attacks and blocks - it IS the simplest form of combat you should ever have in an open world 3D game . Your other suggestion is only in fighter games for a reason - it only works In that scenario .

If we are going with a multiplayer open world , partial loot game where your foe can come from anywhere then we need directional based attacks , it just makes sense, is more immersive and engages the user more so than simply blocking and maybe pressing up or down occasionally . Besides that , coming from an ergonomic viewpoint , the high-middle-low blocking system would be far less superior than its directional based counter part - directional based will have to worry about low and high which would both be blocked by middle , and left and right which are governed by combining left / right with the block button .

So where's the problem you ask ? Well in an open world game you aren't standing still fighting each other like Mortal Kombat (hits are always done standing unless it's a flying kick / punch / special move) . Try strafing left and right while also blocking up and down - go ahead I dare you . Oh you can't ? That's probably because any open world game with melee on the mind uses a directional based system instead of a high middle low simplified system :P (of course tab targeting is popular with MMOs but we don't care for that shit do we ?). Maneuverability is everything in an open world , choose your own path like COE.

Btw whoever suggested that a directional based system is different than a free form system You are mistaken . Directional based is the freest form that is also the least clunky and most user friendly . Combos would come naturally with this system , and remember this isn't a fighter in which we can slowly move over to our opponent and jam a bunch of keys for a combo .

Combo Example in a directional based system :

Swing left , slash right , swing left , stab middle thrust , overhead strike , underhand poke , and finish with another stab and you've done a combo . There's plenTy of combo possibilities with just 5 directions .

I would like to add that whatever combat is suggested should be controller compatible/fluid. SBS stated that they had controller compatibility in mind early on.

Posted By Kyxsune at 7:16 PM - Sun Apr 30 2017

I would like to add that whatever combat is suggested should be controller compatible/fluid. SBS stated that they had controller compatibility in mind early on.

This system might even work better with a controller honestly, the right analog could be used for directions. The main weakness of the controller is that you can't turn the camera as much as a mouse but that probably won't matter since the game isn't really twitch based. Aiming projectiles might be harder, however.

EDIT: Updated the OP to mention controllers