I would add to Adam's post that perhaps a good middle-ground is to rethink the item 'quality' bought with EP into something cosmetic rather than mechanic effects. And to remove limited quantities from the store.

This would mean an entry level swordmaker would be able to compete with a legendary swordmaker with no issue. The higher quality blade has a gem on its hilt or something. Making it unique but not overpowering and nothing to trigger a grey/blackmarket.

The biggest concerns so far are technological advantage and crafting advantages snowballing into bigger bonuses over time. However, I'm fine with making "legendary walls" just a bit taller and perhaps engraved a bit, but the same durability as the tier below.

Great post Adam!

I don't support a new server for a clean slate but that doesn't mean I don't have some EP concerns.

My biggest concern with the EP Store is the research/blueprints/techniques above basic being sold, much like you stated. I feel these could give the biggest and, as you put it, an insurmountable advantage.

As long as its just a boost towards learning those aspects and not a flat out now you get automatically this researched method/blueprint/technique it could be all right. We already have guild tokens being sold that give that sort of boost. So I would be fine with the rarer research were larger boosts or a small boost towards a more specialized area.

If I could pay 10000 EP for Ocean Boat research and have that advantage at the exact point that its implemented without spending any in-game time on its research. I would call that unfair.

On rare buildings: I'm mixed. It depends on if they give bonuses and how much of a bonus it gives. If its more about using rarer, sturdier materials that are unique in style, I am ok with it. A few people being able to buy pryamids could go a long way to making communities look unique. But if those pryamids added a 500% boost to stone crafting it would be an unfair P2W advantage.

I don't see having rare versions of most of the other EP items as too unfair of an advantage, as long as they don't provide any great stats type gain. If its things like durability and unique stlyes/appearance I am fine with rare/legendary items being sold.

It's true that from a marketing standpoint the game could be in "turbulent waters".

I feel shame that i didn't see the possibility of the emergence of a RMT.

There are some ways to limit the "super rare" items besides durability as i think i wrote in a post of this threat some time ago. Though i don't know if said limits will be put in practice.

We still don't know too much about the subject.

In the end, we need more information about the store. At least, to obtain a healthier effect in the marketing campaign and control the possibility of a RMT.

I fully expect that the CoE staff will be able to address this issue successfully.

I love the idea of this game and cant wait to play it, however i am in the i wont play it if it goes P2W. I want SBS to have all the money in the world so this game gets built. My suggestion is "Cosmetic" we will buy all the cute shit you can come up with outfits-mounts etc, we love our cutesy shit. There is a huge RP community already in this game, think of all the different peasant outfits or nobile outfits. Lets build a pay to look good not p2w. My 2 cents.

So your concern needs to address a viable solution and not "worst case".

Possible solutions

Blueprints deteriorate after x number of uses? Makes sense, they are paper/parchment. The more you use it the harder it will become to read. Blueprints are only good for 1 in game year... ink / paper breaks down over time. Just because the info on them are high quality doesn't mean the paper has to be invincible.

Limit purchasable items per level / per person. You may only buy 1 legendary / 2 rare / etc... of anything, not of each... Chose wisely as there are only 1 legendary of each / 5 rare... etc...

Purchased plants will naturally be genetically mixed with natural plants (after a game year or two) decreasing superiority. Genetic drift / cross pollination (wind and insects that aren't player controlled) will cause lesser traits to develop in purchased plants (Same with livestock unless two people coordinate, get lucky enough to be near each other, and happen to buy a male/female of some stock).

This would create a non-renewable source of income for blueprint makers and lessen the impact of purchased items. But since there are only a couple of high level items available, and multiple kingdoms, and kings are likely to have the most money... ... ... even if its only a few people, why assume that items won't be spread across multiple kingdoms? Yeah, I'm missing something because the world is larger than 1 or 2 settlements.

I think I will wait until Caspian responds to add anything else. Adam hit it all.

Caspian NEEDS to respond.

I have to disagree with my good King and the OP on what these additional rare items represent. Let me emphasize my thesis:

Legendary items need to exist in the world, and they are better off in PC hands than NPC Hands; selling them with EP has no greater impact than selling rare noble titles.

Have some bullets:

• A flat, gray, evenly distributed world does not present inherent challenge or interest.
• NPCs are frankly no challenge at all to a half-dedicated group of players. Anything they own will be owned by the most active players in short order. Placing NPCs in important positions or holding important items doesn't solve anything.
• Technology can be stolen just like anything else. The advantage is easily surmountable. Even seeing the product of enhanced technology should be enough to get other players on the path to creating it.
• A rare item is only as effective as the player wielding it. Just because a player buys up a pile of rare trinkets and epic walls doesn't mean they'll be able to keep either.
• The cost of these legendary items is immense. That is a true hurdle that ensures these items stay rare.
• People have to weigh two costs to participate in this game, either an opportunity cost via time spent playing or a financial cost via dollars spent seeding the world.
• On one hand, the $$ route leads to quick advancement for a very limited window. On the other hand, time in game will inevitably overcome any early established advantage precisely because the world is not an even gradient. Opportunity will be widely spread and come at a variety of risks and rewards.
• All of this leads to more enriching gameplay over time, not less.
• Look at all the highly visible wealthy backers. There are a handful of them. Everyone knows who they are and where they live.
• Now look at all the potential players, hungry to gain fame and fortune. Thousands upon thousands of them.
• Look back at those highly visible wealthy backers, again. Look tasty, don't they?

Bon appétit!

Why is it P2W? if the Count, Duke, or King isn't a political person and loses all their followers they wont have the position much longer. You could argue with that logic the 3 month exposition is p2w then because you will have 3 months on anyone who didn't buy into it. It is definitely going to be an interesting game if people think EP is play to win they wont be in their position long.

Posted By Bombastus at 1:54 PM - Mon May 15 2017

I have to disagree with my good King and the OP on what these additional rare items represent. Let me emphasize my thesis:

Legendary items need to exist in the world, and they are better off in PC hands than NPC Hands; selling them with EP has no greater impact than selling rare noble titles.

Have some bullets:

• A flat, gray, evenly distributed world does not present inherent challenge or interest.

Neither does a world with insurmountable challenge. One of my favorite games of all time is Dark Souls. It is renowned for being very challenging and hard....but SURMOUNTABLE. Its the ability to overcome the challenge that makes it fun. CoE marketed itself on similar logic. "You want to become a King? Well go for it my friend, he is gonna be pretty entrenched but its doable". What Evelake is saying, and something I agree with 100%, is if you provide people access to mystical weapons and the like and they can just mass produce and hoard them, why should anyone ever bother coming for his throne? They aren't going to get it.

• Technology can be stolen just like anything else. The advantage is easily surmountable. Even seeing the product of enhanced technology should be enough to get other players on the path to creating it.

You don't know that. As far as I am aware, you have to teach it.

• A rare item is only as effective as the player wielding it. Just because a player buys up a pile of rare trinkets and epic walls doesn't mean they'll be able to keep either.

That can have a varying amount of truth to it depending on the mechanics. Some games, sure, you are right. Other games, players can become virtual raid bosses when geared up, regardless of skill.

• The cost of these legendary items is immense. That is a true hurdle that ensures these items stay rare.

Not to those with lots of money.

• People have to weigh two costs to participate in this game, either an opportunity cost via time spent playing or a financial cost via dollars spent seeding the world.

What if someone has both? Do they just win, despite all other factors?

• On one hand, the $$ route leads to quick advancement for a very limited window. On the other hand, time in game will inevitably overcome any early established advantage precisely because the world is not an even gradient. Opportunity will be widely spread and come at a variety of risks and rewards.

• All of this leads to more enriching gameplay over time, not less.

I disagree. More competitive -> More enriching gameplay. By allowing people too much of an advantage, you get rid of alot of competition. Being able to buy Noble Titles, Buildings, and Equipment should be the extent of what you should be able to do with EP. It is meant to help you customize your pledge to your liking, not buy the best gear in the game.

• Look at all the highly visible wealthy backers. There are a handful of them. Everyone knows who they are and where they live.

Ok? Cool?

• Now look at all the potential players, hungry to gain fame and fortune. Thousands upon thousands of them.

What about them? If all it takes is a swing of the Sword of Pleb-bane, which all of your Knights have, to smite an army of them, why would you care?

• Look back at those highly visible wealthy backers, again. Look tasty, don't they?
  Bon appétit!

Not really. I much prefer to not have my corpse charred by magic which is supposed to be so rare its like it doesn't even exist, despite everyone with money having some form of it.

• A flat, gray, evenly distributed world does not present inherent challenge or interest.

Neither does a world with insurmountable challenge. One of my favorite games of all time is Dark Souls. It is renowned for being very challenging and hard....but SURMOUNTABLE. Its the ability to overcome the challenge that makes it fun. CoE marketed itself on similar logic. "You want to become a King? Well go for it my friend, he is gonna be pretty entrenched but its doable". What Evelake is saying, and something I agree with 100%, is if you provide people access to mystical weapons and the like and they can just mass produce and hoard them, why should anyone ever bother coming for his throne? They aren't going to get it.

How do you and the King know that your advantage is insurmountable? That's a gross assumption. We know from the Creator's Mouth that the dev team will be actively Game-Mastering to make sure the right amount of conflict and opportunity exists. You can expect any advantage that appears to be insurmountable will be surmounted by a story event.

• Technology can be stolen just like anything else. The advantage is easily surmountable. Even seeing the product of enhanced technology should be enough to get other players on the path to creating it.

You don't know that. As far as I am aware, you have to teach it.

Blueprints are physical objects. Reverse engineering was mentioned previously, though I do not have a source on hand.

• A rare item is only as effective as the player wielding it. Just because a player buys up a pile of rare trinkets and epic walls doesn't mean they'll be able to keep either.

That can have a varying amount of truth to it depending on the mechanics. Some games, sure, you are right. Other games, players can become virtual raid bosses when geared up, regardless of skill.

Virtual raid boss? Sounds like quality game content. I'm sure someone will be along to raid that player.

• The cost of these legendary items is immense. That is a true hurdle that ensures these items stay rare.

Not to those with lots of money.

Who are, themselves, rare.

• People have to weigh two costs to participate in this game, either an opportunity cost via time spent playing or a financial cost via dollars spent seeding the world.

What if someone has both? Do they just win, despite all other factors?

See above comment about dev involvement and the other about rarity of wealth. If you know someone who has both time and money in great quantity, I bet that someone is the only one you know. It's not like there are idle rich folk sitting in every coffee bar.

• On one hand, the $$ route leads to quick advancement for a very limited window. On the other hand, time in game will inevitably overcome any early established advantage precisely because the world is not an even gradient. Opportunity will be widely spread and come at a variety of risks and rewards.

• All of this leads to more enriching gameplay over time, not less.

I disagree. More competitive -> More enriching gameplay. By allowing people too much of an advantage, you get rid of alot of competition. Being able to buy Noble Titles, Buildings, and Equipment should be the extent of what you should be able to do with EP. It is meant to help you customize your pledge to your liking, not buy the best gear in the game.

Then we disagree. I feel stilted advantage is a huge motivator for competition. I know several players whose biggest objective is to kill a King. Why? Because kings are rich and powerful and have huge advantages.

• Look at all the highly visible wealthy backers. There are a handful of them. Everyone knows who they are and where they live.

Ok? Cool?

• Now look at all the potential players, hungry to gain fame and fortune. Thousands upon thousands of them.

What about them? If all it takes is a swing of the Sword of Pleb-bane, which all of your Knights have, to smite an army of them, why would you care?

Here you assume that a legendary sword presents an unbeatable advantage. Have you read the design documents and dev statements? Such objects will not be unbeatably strong. And relics, which can conceivably be strong are not craftable.

• Look back at those highly visible wealthy backers, again. Look tasty, don't they?
  Bon appétit!

Not really. I much prefer to not have my corpse charred by magic which is supposed to be so rare its like it doesn't even exist, despite everyone with money having some form of it.

Everyone with money enough for an artifact constitutes 1% of the server population. That is the only form of "magic" one can buy. Sounds rare to me.

Yeah, anyone opposing the "empire" should be against this system because your just not gonna win, I'm not being cocky, just realistic. We're statistically going to likely be the ones that buy out all/most of the legendary and/or mystic items.

So not only are you fighting a double kingdom with unreal numbers and resource advantage, we have p2w legendary and mystic items on our side over you.

@bombastus that's not really an advantage to me. That's a win. Like I said earlier, it went from a knife to a gun fight and your unarmed.

Can you win? Technically but stars have to align. You can create competition and differing starting values without legend and mystic items. They aren't required.

We can assume legendary weapons are quite powerful. The description speaks to that. Why would a sword spread legends and rumors throughout the kingdom or be so strong people think it is magic? Because it looks cool? If that's the case SBS really isn't getting better at this wording thing at all.

As for population, even if they limit it to 1% does it really matter when Vornair hold 0.08% of it? That's not competition, that's a win.

You also don't need to be rich and have time. You can just have disposable income. Anyone in the lower middle class can get legendaries and mystics using basic budgeting. Especially if they have months to years to do so. Now of course this changes depending on the luxuries you choose to obtain with your money but you can.

That's just for adults. Everyone in my group is dropping about $400+ in EP by launch because we're college students with jobs and 0 bills but luxuries like car/phone. So if you leave the system as is your gonna have a ~20m group with legendary and mystic gear. While I don't like to win like that, I'll take it as you all know, I hate to lose quite a lot. Even if you take it from one of us, now you have 20m legendary+ team on your ass until they get it back. Is that truly winning??? Cas even I wouldn't want that win lol.

So not only does basic budgeting = legendary+ , teens and students will also naturally have more disposable income as well as time.

Posted By Apaukolypse at 2:27 PM - Mon May 15 2017

Not really. I much prefer to not have my corpse charred by magic which is supposed to be so rare its like it doesn't even exist, despite everyone with money having some form of it.

Here's a question, why is your immediate thought that a magical item will provide the ability to char a corpse? We know magic is supposed to be rare, but we also know it's supposed to be subtle and less invasive than in many settings. I mean, the most powerful/richest people (in game), will by necessity have the access to the greatest gear. Is it such a stretch that they receive it during exposition, at a time they are supposed to be world-building and creating in a relatively efficient manner? If you fear the king or duke with a magical tool, sneak in, coup de grace, steal the magic thing, and then lead your open rebellion.

Posted By Takeda_Shinukage at 4:08 PM - Mon May 15 2017

You also don't need to be rich and have time. You can just have disposable income. Anyone in the lower middle class can get legendaries and mystics using basic budgeting. Especially if they have months to years to do so. Now of course this changes depending on the luxuries you choose to obtain with your money but you can.

That's just for adults. Everyone in my group is dropping about $400+ in EP by launch because we're college students with jobs and 0 bills but luxuries like car/phone. So if you leave the system as is your gonna have a ~20m group with legendary and mystic gear. While I don't like to win like that, I'll take it as you all know, I hate to lose quite a lot. Even if you take it from one of us, now you have 20m legendary+ team on your ass until they get it back. Is that truly winning??? Cas even I wouldn't want that win lol.

So not only does basic budgeting = legendary+ , teens and students will also naturally have more disposable income as well as time.

Sorry, don't mean to spam posts like this, but I think that these high quality items you're talking about spamming for your group are going to be rarer than you think. The EP list explicitly says that these things increase in both quality and rarity. I'd be surprised if you were able to get your hands on more than one or two mystic items before other people, larger communities or those with a bigger EP stash, get the rest.

@Bombastus

This debate has long left this thread for the other one, and Counterpoints to your arguments have already been brought up quite a number of times over there, so I will just leave it at that.